Farmers Contest Child-Labor Rules

[alp227]

Source: WSJ (Google title for full article)

Some farmers are opposing new rules proposed by the federal government that would restrict the chores children can be hired to perform in the nation's fields, including driving tractors and rounding up cattle in corrals on horseback.

The U.S. Department of Labor says its proposal aims to look after children's safety in a dangerous industry. The rules would bar most farm hands younger than 16 years old from jobs such as operating power equipment, branding and breeding farm animals, and working atop ladders at heights over six feet.

Farmers say the planned regulations are overreaching.

(...)

Of the two million U.S. farms, about 98% are family owned, according to the American Farm Bureau Federation, a trade group. The new rules would apply to children under 16 who are hired by farming operations, not those who work at farms owned and operated by their parents. But many teens work at farms not owned by their immediate family, such as uncles or grandparents.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204083204577078491680523760.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

---

I bet these same farmers who complain about this government over-reach on child labor also would hire adults only if the adults are poor, uneducated immigrants willing to work for cheap.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Our Governor Blowsalot came out against this last week

I just added it to the list. He doesn't want women to have access to health care, any federal money for health care, no divorce or gay marriage. But he wants all of us to be married and our kids should be able to work on farms.

[msongs]

2. 98% are family owned = what % of actual acreage? useless statistic really nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. How many of those families are corporations?

The Kochs are, after all, a family too :)

[SoapBox]

12. That is exactly what I was going to post about...

Something about that stat, does NOT seem correct.

And it is most certainly not what I've heard about from relatives in the Mid West.

Large, corporate owned "agri" farms, are what I hear about.

[No Elephants]

15. What, you never heard of sister corporations, parent corporations?

Why, it's the mega agribusiness family.

[izquierdista]

3. Know anyone who was in a farming accident as a kid?

I do. Farmers don't have much sense when it comes to exposing their kids to dangers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. So do I. Car wrecks too.

When I was young, farm kids could drive at 14. (Don't know if they still can) I knew a couple kids in college who had been hurt pretty badly in car accidents when they were driving at 14 or 15.

[joeglow3]

39. It is not just farm kids in Nebraska

Any kid who lives a certain from school can get a special license that lets them drive to and from school ONLY. To your point, it was mostly rural kids who qualified for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. I had friends who lived in the city but had relatives who were farmers

They all had licenses at 14.

[newfie11]

13. Yes

a 3 year old got his hair caught in the pto killing him. This was a Mennonite friends farm. It happened so fast no one could save him.

[yellowcanine]

36. "a 3 year old got his hair caught in the pto". So much sheer negligence for that to happen.

First, a child that young should not be anywhere near a running PTO. They aren't working - they are watching or riding along. Farm equipment isn't for children to play with or on. Second, PTO's are supposed to have shields in place so that clothing or hair will not get caught in them. This is just wrong and could be considered reckless endangerment of the child without anything happening and negligent homicide because something did. Unfortunately, some of the Amish and Old Order Mennonites are notorious for putting young children in dangerous situations on farms. Some of the worst cases involve a child falling off and getting run over by tillage or mowing equipment.

[newfie11]

41. I agree in a perfect world this should not happen.

The mom had brought lunch and for a split second this happened.
I own a working farm and have no problems with kids working in the summer.
It depends on what type of job and how responsible they are.
I know adults killed by tractor accidents.

All it takes is a split second with wrong
judgement.

[yellowcanine]

45. I don't buy it that we need a perfect world to prevent this sort of thing.

What we need is education and reasonable regulations which recognize the vulnerabilities of children. Of course kids can work on farms. That is not the issue. The issue is hiring kids to do work which only a trained adult should be doing. The fact that adults get killed on tractors only proves the point. And the bad judgment didn't happen in a split second. The bad judgment occurred when a child was allowed near an operating PTO. It is understandable that the child might be there at lunch time. What is not understandable is why the equipment is running at lunchtime. Therein lies the bad judgment and it doesn't take a perfect world to know that.

[newfie11]

48. shit happens

I happen to know that family and the mother had complete nervous breakdown. She was hospitalized for months.

As a mom I am well aware how quickly kids can get into trouble.
Its always easy to throw stone.

[yellowcanine]

49. I don't doubt it that the mother is completely distraught. But that doesn't take away the

culpability. Sorry but it really doesn't work that way. I am not in favor of jailing anyone but this was at the least reckless endangerment and society can't just ignore that. No favors are done to anyone by mouthing platitudes about throwing stones. These are facts. This isn't "kids getting into trouble." What does a 3 year old know about the danger of PTOs? This is an innocent child who was put into harm's way by adults (not just the mom - actually I would say the machine operator had more culpability because he is responsible for the safe operation of the equipment and should have shut it down the moment the woman and child arrived on the scene). I believe that many parents in a situation like this would plead guilty to a charge of reckless endangerment and find some healing in being able to do so.

[iamthebandfanman]

18. i knew two as a kid

..
one got both his hands mangled (and lost them) and the other lost his sense of feeling/pain in the majority of his body

and on an up note, the latter kid used to enjoy showing us all how he could punch anything he wanted and not feel it ... lol

[pnwmom]

19. Ranching accidents. And those places are often far from good hospitals, too.

[fasttense]

26. The rules would NOT apply to children of the farm owners.

It just applies to the outside help a farm hires.

As a small farmer, I can live with these rules. They seem reasonable.

[hedgehog]

34. My husband's employer has about a dozen plants worldwide. Whenever

there is a serious accident or near-miss at one plant, every other plant is notified within 24 hours so all the plants can take corrective actions. These plants are all subject to regular government inspection.

Small family farmers are generally out there on their own. They also tend to have an attitude of "make it do or do without". My husband uses a Ford 9N tractor that is about 60 years old. Believe me, it doesn't have today's safety features. A lo9t of equipment comes in with poorly designed safety shields, so they are quickly discarded.

So, I'd say it's not that farmers are careless or stupid; they just don't have the cash and the info to keep themselves and their families safe.

[yellowcanine]

37. The vast majority of family farmers keep their children safe. It has little to do with money.

Or the age of the equipment. It is a matter of making it a priority. There are jobs on a farm which young children can do safely with some training and supervision. Operating equipment isn't one of them, at least until the child is physically able to do so - and then, good training and direct supervision needs to be in place.

[Quartermass]

6. Wow. This is just more paranoia bs. Kids can't ahve any fun these days without an adult overreacting

and trying to protect children from harm. It's utterly ridiculous.

I'm incredibly frustrated with the culture of paranoia over our children of the modern age.

It's gotta stop sometime.

[christx30]

7. It'll stop when

everyone looks at themselves with a roll of packing tape in one hand, and see their kid wrapped in bubble wrap standing beside them.
Or maybe not.

[pnwmom]

25. Did you read

this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5080232&mesg_id=5080407

Or this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5080232&mesg_id=5080345

Or these?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5080232&mesg_id=5080293

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5080232&mesg_id=5080424

[The Genealogist]

10. Yes, denying kids the fun of dangerous, heavy farm labor is such a bad thing

Just a paranoid nanny state trying to keep children from having the fun of injuring themselves in dangerous occupations. :sarcasm:

[boppers]

14. "Slave labor" = "having fun"?

I didn't work on my family's farm because it was fun.

I did it because I wasn't old enough to escape, and knew I would be beaten if I didn't do the work.

[pnwmom]

24. Thanks for the reality check.

And if you had gotten injured, how far would it have been to the nearest hospital?

It would have been an hour and a half to the nearest one to my in-laws ranch; but that hospital had no functioning trauma dept. -- everyone had to get transferred to another hospital a few hours by car away. (And even that hospital is so-so.)

[No Elephants]

16. LOL!

[pnwmom]

20. Like most people, you know little about the risks of modern farming and ranching.

Children and teens in rural areas helping out on family farms and ranches have higher death rates than those in urban areas, because of the accidental death rates in rural areas -- combined with the lack of nearby medical care.

http://www.safekidsnebraska.org/fact-sheets/At%20risk%20facts.pdf

Children living in rural areas are at greater risk from accidental injury-related death than children living in urban areas. These children are especially at risk from drowning, motor vehicle crashes, unintentional firearm injury, residential fires and agricultural work-related injury.

 Injuries in rural settings occur in remote, sparsely populated areas that tend to lack organized systems of trauma care, resulting in prolonged response and transport times. A short supply of medical facilities, equipment and personnel to treat injuries in rural areas also contributes to increased risk.

 Minority children living in rural areas are especially at risk from accidental injury- related death. These children represent a smaller percentage of the rural population, and their specific needs are unlikely to be met.

 Higher injury fatality rates in rural communities are due in part to the high number of farm-related injuries. Children account for 20 percent of all injury-related farm fatalities and represent an even larger portion of nonfatal injuries.

 Inner-city children are at greater risk for severe nonfatal injuries than suburban and rural children. However, their mortality rates from injury are lower, possibly due to proximity to hospitals and trauma centers.

[yellowcanine]

30. A ten year old kid driving a tractor doing farm work isn't "having fun." He is working.

[hedgehog]

35. Seriously?

:eyes:

[pasto76]

8. as an adult. as an experienced heavy equipment operator, this is a good thing

at 15 I didnt have anywhere near the maturity to safely operate - all the time - heavy equipment.
As an experienced operator, Ive seen shithead "adults" almost get killed doing something "cool".


come to think of it, I know a shithead who grew up "on a farm", and ran equipment for a summer when he was 18 or so. literally 25 years later. he's still a reckless, arrogant fool.

[pnwmom]

22. +1. n/t

[MadHound]

9. Another way to wreck what few family farms are left. n/t

[alp227]

11. not factory farming or Monsanto?

[pnwmom]

23. Another way to keep some rural kids alive and intact.

People who know ranching and farming don't romanticize it.

http://www.safekidsnebraska.org/fact-sheets/At%20risk%20facts.pdf

Children living in rural areas are at greater risk from accidental injury-related death than children living in urban areas. These children are especially at risk from drowning, motor vehicle crashes, unintentional firearm injury, residential fires and agricultural work-related injury.

 Injuries in rural settings occur in remote, sparsely populated areas that tend to lack organized systems of trauma care, resulting in prolonged response and transport times. A short supply of medical facilities, equipment and personnel to treat injuries in rural areas also contributes to increased risk.

 Minority children living in rural areas are especially at risk from accidental injury- related death. These children represent a smaller percentage of the rural population, and their specific needs are unlikely to be met.

 Higher injury fatality rates in rural communities are due in part to the high number of farm-related injuries. Children account for 20 percent of all injury-related farm fatalities and represent an even larger portion of nonfatal injuries.

 Inner-city children are at greater risk for severe nonfatal injuries than suburban and rural children. However, their mortality rates from injury are lower, possibly due to proximity to hospitals and trauma centers.

[Mr. McD]

17. I worked on a ranch when I was 12 and 13 back in NE.

$5.00 dollars a day plus room and board. OK that was about 50 years ago but I loved it. I spent the summers away from my Mom, earned some money and learned a lot about responsibility and work ethics. I got to drive tractors and trucks and raked up a whole lot of hay. I stayed with a family who had a daughter my age that I had a super crush on. In all a great experience and I wouldn't have changed a thing.

I can't speak for others.

[pnwmom]

21. The Dept. of Labor is right. Here are the facts on which they based their decision.

http://www.safekidsnebraska.org/fact-sheets/At%20risk%20facts.pdf


Children living in rural areas are at greater risk from accidental injury-related death than children living in urban areas. These children are especially at risk from drowning, motor vehicle crashes, unintentional firearm injury, residential fires and agricultural work-related injury.

 Injuries in rural settings occur in remote, sparsely populated areas that tend to lack organized systems of trauma care, resulting in prolonged response and transport times. A short supply of medical facilities, equipment and personnel to treat injuries in rural areas also contributes to increased risk.

 Minority children living in rural areas are especially at risk from accidental injury- related death. These children represent a smaller percentage of the rural population, and their specific needs are unlikely to be met.

 Higher injury fatality rates in rural communities are due in part to the high number of farm-related injuries. Children account for 20 percent of all injury-related farm fatalities and represent an even larger portion of nonfatal injuries.

 Inner-city children are at greater risk for severe nonfatal injuries than suburban and rural children. However, their mortality rates from injury are lower, possibly due to proximity to hospitals and trauma centers.

[fasttense]

27. These rules apply to outside hires not the farm kids.

"The new rules would apply to children under 16 who are hired by farming operations, not those who work at farms owned and operated by their parents."

[Odin2005]

28. As someone who grew up in a rural area I have to agree with the farmers, here.

[yellowcanine]

32. Well as someone who went to a funeral for a 14 yr old neighbor boy I don't.

Killed himself and darn near killed his kid sister when the tractor he was driving upset. We also had neighbors with hooks because they got their hands caught in corn pickers. Another neighbor had his arm ripped off by a combine and bled to death. Farm equipment was and is dangerous. It is no place for kids who are not mature enough to know the risks and physically unable to safely operate tractors and other farm equipment in many cases.

[Scruffy1]

43. I think it depends on what you are doing.

I grew up in agriculture. Started handling livestock when I was about 10. A bovine can seriously hurt you or even kill you. So can a horse or a hog. Knew one farmer who got eaten by his hogs. The most dangerous thing on a farm though is the machinery. I've seen people pinned under tipped over tractors, feet mangled in grain augers and grinders, hands caught in corn pickers and combines.
Then there are jobs like walking beans to pull weeds or planting trees, building fence, and cleaning chicken coops.
Yes, me and my best friend used to clean chicken coops on Saturdays to get enough dough to go out on Saturday night.
All in all I would say 16 years old is the minimum age for hired labor. There is plenty of life left after 16 to be a slave in.

[Xithras]

42. Same here.

When I was in high school, a lot of us used to work for local farmers during the summer for spending money. It was hard, crappy work, but it beat flipping burgers at McDonalds, and nearly always paid better. Sure, there are occasional injuries, but my junior year in high school, while I was picking peaches, a 17 year old girl was shot to death at a local Jack in the Box by an asshole who wanted the cash in her register. Hell, I still have a small scar on my left hand from the deep fryer at Taco Bell my senior year, when I dropped a basket of cinnamon twists into the hot oil a bit too fast. Teens usually have crappy jobs, no matter where they work, and there is always going to be some risk.

There's a fine line between protecting children from abuses, and governmental nannying that prevents them from doing reasonably safe work and gaining valuable work experience and responsibility. The government stating that they cant climb ladders over 6' tall crosses that line. Heck, my kid climbed a latter twice that height last weekend while we were stringing Christmas lights.

If nothing else, spending my summers doing farmwork taught me that I never want to be a farmer :)

[Matariki]

47. I drove a tractor by the time I was 10 on my grandparents' farm

it was pretty common.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

29. I call bullshit.

This is really about the children -- and I do mean 9, 10, 11 year olds -- of migrant workers being allowed to work the fields with their parents. Out here in CA I am always seeing reports of very underage kids caught picking -- the migrant families like it because it means more money and the farmers like it because it is more cheaper labor for them.

[Quartermass]

31. Well, thenm if you guys are that opposed to it you shouldn't allow kids to drive cars or trucks

because those things are dangerous too.

[yellowcanine]

33. Well duh. We don't. Not at all before age 16 and only then with direct supervision.

Most of the cases of farming accidents and kids are with kids a lot less than 16 years old.

[Doctor_J]

38. Ah-ha. Gingrinch's base

I wondered where they were

[No Elephants]

40. Glad to see such solid support of dangerous child labor at DEMOCRATIC Underground.

One can only shudder to imagine the kind of posts we'd be seeing if this were Republican Underground or Libertarian Underground.

Well, actually, when you get right down to it, they'd probably be very similar to some of the posts on this thread, though perhaps a bit more candid and less circumspect.

[Doctor_J]

46. Over here they're bashing pensioners

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5079336&mesg_id=5079336

Then you have the NRA ("Obama's going to take every gun from every law-abiding citizen"), the "I hate teachers" mob, and the "Social Security is an entitlement that's responsible for the deficit" cult. It is sickening how many right-wing memes are propagated on this site.