US Troops Doling Out Vigilante Justice To Iraq Civilians

[Judi Lynn]

US Troops Doling Out

uploaded 05 Aug 2003


Vigilante Justice To Iraq Civilians

BAGHDAD - At the checkpoint, the Americans found a handgun, ordered the 56-year-old man out of his car and proceeded to bash his head with a rifle butt.

Rahim Nasser Mohammed points to his right temple, the side of his mouth and lifts his shirt, to show the spots where the soldier cudgeled him again and again nearly a month ago.

His story -- that of a government employee pulled over in his car by the US army -- seems one in a thousand as reports mount of beatings and sometimes deaths of Iraqi civilians at the hands of US soldiers.

On Sunday, five Iraqis were killed during a raid on a home in Baghdad's wealthy Mansur district, witnesses said, as troops searched the house of a relative of Saddam Hussein for the strongman himself.

The same day, a demonstration over a nighttime patrol near a holy shrine in the southern Shiite holy city of Karbala, turned ugly, ending with marines firing in the air and a protestor dead. (snip/...)

~~~~link~~~~

[bowens43]

1. support the troops?

[sujan]

2. apathy for the troops

[tboullett]

127. Does Mi Lai mean anything?

Does Mi Lai mean anything?

Is this not deja vu?

[HungryLoser]

128. Do you mean the atrocities (did I spell that right?)

commited by US troops in Viet Nam?

[Divernan]

3. Peacekeeping =s "A good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi"?

I understand that a lot of very young, very stressed out, very exhausted, very frightened US soldiers can overreact in a very lethal manner. There may or may not be a war crimes tribunal to investigate such acts (but I doubt it), but innocent Iraqis will still be dead, and the soldiers who lost control and beat up or killed civilians will be incredibly psychologically messed up when they return here - and in need of massive mental health treatment which the VA is not set up to provide. The Bush legacy will hurt survivors & their families for their lifetimes.

[okieinpain]

113. yep, they will need help, and they are not going to get it.

.

[HungryLoser]

131. 100 years ago we would have just, stole their land,

put them on reservations, give them diseased blankets, and turn them all into alcoholics.

[HungryLoser]

4. The Iraqis get paid to kill Americans

so they can feed their families, and not very much money. Most of these soldiers are kids, and for some it's their first time off the farm. My sources (A friend who's a medic serving in Bagdad) tell me that they sleep with one eye open and a finger on the trigger. They started out truly wanting to help the Iraqi people, but now are suspicious of everyone. It's like invisible combat, they never know if they'll die today, and one may very well (Insert prayer that they don't). Some of these kids are truly terrified, which is a natural human response, even for men.
I'm not defending the actions of the soldiers, but put in that position I can understand why some lash out violently towards them. ANYONE could be out to kill you. We've seen the same actions from Police officers who work in large cities, they get so pumped on adrenalin and yes, fear.
This is one of the uglier aspects of war, real war, not the polite prime-time media kind.

[Merlin]

11. Horseshit.

Well trained, well disciplined troops don't do this. American troops should never do this. I don't give a danm how scared they are. This is wrong, wrong, wrong! This is the result of bad training, ill-thought-out for missions, weak, spineless commanders, and an American public that no longer gives a damn how vile it has become.

This is the New American WWF mentality writ large.

Welcome to the new age.

[TahitiNut]

19. While I appreciate your statement of principle,

I must note that it has been my experience that such behavior is to be expected when military personnel are subjected to prolonged stress, unrelieved deprivation, and extraordinarily ambiguous threats. The latter is particularly important. The military does not deal at all well with ambiguity, either at the leadership or at the grunt level. This should've been a lesson of My Lai. It was not.

Military training, very unlike police training, focuses on maximally effective offensive force postures. There's almost nothing in infantry training (especially at the enlisted level) that focuses on "friend or foe" questions. It's "kill or be killed" and "shoot (or salute?) anything that moves." We're talking about training that deliberately aims to bypass reasoning processes -- where "reasoning" is overtly eschewed and demonized. "Ours but to do or die; ours not to reason why" is the perennial maxim. Military training and indoctrination relies heavily on Maslow's highest need: survival. All other 'needs' are wired into compliance and groupthink.

Perhaps one must experience this to fully appreciate it. It's the amplification of our authoritarian propensities. It's innately inimical to 'free thinking' and democratic principles. There are no Albert Schweitzers in the military.

[Merlin]

138. Absolutely wrong. You are making excuses where none are due.

I spent a year and a half in combat in Vietnam. US soldiers are educated human beings. They have the ability to make judgements about right and wrong. Their training does not discourage them from making such judgements.

In fact, soldiers are forced to use plenty of discretion, including that forbidding shooting at friendly forces. Few would strike at children.

The fact that they feel it is ok to beat up old men and women is just as I said an indication of a horrible lack of discipline on the part of their leadership.

The first time this occurs, there should be a court martial. Orders should come from on high that striking any civilian who has been disarmed and is in custody will result in a summary court martial. Commanders who permit this kind of thing under their command should likewise be disciplined.

It can be minimized. And it must be minimized if we are to gain the trust and support of the locals.

[HungryLoser]

140. You're absolutely right!

Unfortunately, it seems this is a different age we live in. It only takes a few cold-hearted people to smear the name of the extremely brave men who serve in the US military, and those are the ones the media seems to latch onto.
The world looks to the US to lead them, and we must all lead by example.
I thank you for what you did for our country, you have my highest respect.

[TahitiNut]

143. If, as you say, ...

"US soldiers are educated human beings" and "they have the ability to make judgements about right and wrong" then why would this incident be "an indication of a horrible lack of discipline on the part of their leadership"???

It sounds to me like the latter diagnosis is akin to saying "keep that attack dog on a good leash!" :shrug:

Are you at all aware of how you've supported what I've said? Granted, not all military personnel are affected by the indoctrination the same way. Most will, in fact, hold onto their own integrity. Many will not.

[okieinpain]

114. I can understand it, and it will get worse. and then the iraqi

terrorist will pickup recruits by the hundreds, which will lead to more dead american soldiers. which in turn will make the american soldiers just that more angry. we are screwed, we're pulling out of saudi, we are going to get run out of iraqi, and afghan, and the whole region will fall to the fundi's over there.

osama is one smart cookie,

[HungryLoser]

119. Yup.. If someone took over my country, ousted Bush,

destroyed the infrastructure and killed my brother, I might feel like retaliating too!

[neuvocat]

129. They must be paid by the U.S. then.

Otherwise, where do you suppose all that money comes from to pay them, huh?

[izzie]

5. The now they wil l not get in trouble for it

I have heard that a lot of stealing is also going on by our men. It comes down from the top, and we all know it is anything goes as long as you get more of something. Greed is running wild from WH down. It is like the last grap of a once great country, and very sad. The GOP can not seem to run the gov. so we become bullys and watch us take.

[HungryLoser]

6. hmm... greed running wild...

could be talking about corporate America. But that's another story for another board.
And you're right, my sources tell me that some of these kids are ex-gang bangers and less than upright citizens. And some grew up stealing to eat, the military was a way out of poverty for them.

[dwillison]

7. Nobody on this board has any problem with taking a story

from an anti-American, anti-Israeli, pro-Arab website and then
proceed to use it as an excuse to slap United States troops around?

[sujan]

8. you didn't bother to check other sources, did you?

Any bad news about the US is unreliable? Sure.

here you go:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030728/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_raids_030728140406

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=03/07/28/7298798

I can dig some more. What US troops are doing is bad and there is no hiding. The world sees it for what it is, an illegal invasion to steal their natural resources and they are justified in being critical of the US. This fact is even more true to Arab Muslims because Bush, afterall, is waging a crusade because 'god told' him to do so. Of course, nationalists in the US would like nothing but to see the Iraqis bend over. Well, it isn't happening. Neo liberals learned their lesson in vietnam and maybe now its about time for Neo Conservatives to get their dose.

[TahitiNut]

9. It may be wise and responsible ...

... to regularly cite any additional sources for such stories when we post them here. While I usually do such a search myself when I see something particularly egregious, and while I've yet to see as much 'spin' in the foreign press as I see in our domestic 'free' press, I still sprinkle a little salt on anything I read.

[HungryLoser]

110. Besides the usual sources

mine come from family members in law enforcement, the military, and e-mails from a friend of mine who's a soldier stationed in Bagdad. Do these count, or should I only trust the media and internet?

[HungryLoser]

111. I also grew up on the west side of Chicago, which

sometimes seems like a battleground, I know teens that left the clutches of gangs to enlist, they thought it would be safer?!

[dwillison]

10. While there have no doubt been some misdeeds done by

US troops, To bash the troops citing the original link doesn't give you pause?

[sujan]

12. what part did you not get?

I cited more sources that are known for their impartiality. So bash troops or not, the news is there. I am surprised by your one sided perspective.

Here's one more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/in_pictures/3122169.stm

[dwillison]

31. What am i supposed to determine from this link, there

are cameras in Iraq?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MHS Chips]

141. Sujan, your link only showed some photos--point????

[Merlin]

16. What the hell are you talking about?

"To bash the troops..."

It's not the troops anybody's bashing. It's their cowardly behavior.

This is not the proper conduct for soldiers in anybody's army, let alone the one I served in and pay for.

This is horrific behavior, and the moral blindeness of people who excuse it is reprehensible.

Furthermore, it is idiotically counterproductive. Or do you have a problem understanding why it might be so?

[sujan]

17. nationalists running amok

They will cry foul at anything that shows the negative side and in this case it is a no brainer. War was illegal and by virtue of that, as long as they stay and harass the citizens, it will be deemed the same. The pathetic reactionaries they are.

[Tempest]

27. Again, read the damn story

The U.S. military has ADMITTED that the man was unnecessarily beaten.

[neuvocat]

130. So shooting a kid six times is following orders, right?

Give us all a fucking break.

[HungryLoser]

132. If he was following orders

it shoud have been "Kill, kill, kill", that's only three times.

[Merlin]

13. If it's the truth, what do you care?

Or are you so enamored of America's goodness and justice and righteousness that you can't see the truth?

This is nothing but poorly trained, weak, pathetic troops who lack all discipline and morality. There is no excuse for it whatsoever.

[Tempest]

26. You should really read a story before commenting on it

"But Mohammed's story is a cause for alarm, with his account backed by US military officers and Iraqi police during interviews with AFP. "

So you see, the U.S. military has admitted to the beating.

[dwillison]

28. "So you see, the U.S. military has admitted to the beating."

According to the Arab press?

[sujan]

29. are you just baiting or do you care to research on the topic itself?

Its an AP/AFP story.

And why the vitriol against arabs?

[dwillison]

33. Some of them are very nasty people. They fly planes

into buildings, It has been in the papers and on tv.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spentastic]

37. Er

Some white blokes blow up federal building

Its been in newspapers and on t.v

[dwillison]

38. He's now dead.

[sujan]

40. so the troops are looking for the perpetrators

who blew up the buildings in NYC in Iraq? Defies logic.

[NNN0LHI]

41. The people he killed are still dead too. Great success, huh? n/t

[Spentastic]

42. Er

The guys who flew into buildings are hardly running about full of the joys of spring are they?

[jpak]

80. Kill Kill Kill - the Republikan answer to all problems

pa - thetic...

[HungryLoser]

112. You read Anne Coulter too?

[aquart]

79. Them? The pilots were Saudis and Egyptians.

Even the DNA is different.

[primavera]

94. What does that have to do with anything?

Because a handful of Saudis committed a terrorist act, the beating of civilians of an altogether different state by US armed forces is warranted? Wow, so if the IRA blows up a school bus, do British commandos get to come beat the crap out of me? After all, just like Iraqi civilians, I have nothing to do with the actions of terrosrists from another country, yet, according to your logic, that should stand as no impediment to beating me up.

[berry]

115. The story comes from AFP--do you distrust it because it's French?

n/t

[sujan]

116. dont worry

he has been put to rest

[Judi Lynn]

135. Now that's some good news

This new hatred of MidEastern people is so backward.

The world has gotten smaller only for some people. The humanity hold-outs are still living in their own small villages, mentally, in a sea of evil strangers who want to take their stuff from them, and violate their children.

They are the people Bush finds easy to seduce.

[headlouse]

133. ex-gang-bangers huh?

Hmmm... are you talking about blacks? Let's see well you named all the stereotypes:
- gang-bangers
- less then upright citizens (ya mean they walk like like apes?)
- thieves "stealing to eat"
- poverty stricken

Who's your 'sources' that gave you this info? The Klan?

While you're right to state that our voluntary military is primarily made up of poor people of color, please dispose of your racist notion that this is the cause of the brutality. I'm sure that some white middle-class kid would be just as likely to bash a defenseless Iraqi's head in -- actually probably more so considering their propensity for racism.

[HungryLoser]

136. Actually No. The gang phenomenon crosses all races and

cultures, and it's on the rise! Coming soon to a neigborhood near you!
Where the hell do you live? I'm from the inner-city of Chicago, I live with it every day! Violence knows no boundaries.

[HungryLoser]

137. Why do you think I'm stereotyping? You're the one who brought it up.

Have you ever really seen or experienced poverty? Have you ever gone to bed so hungry you can't sleep because of the pain in your stomach? Have you ever slept on a park bench because you were afraid if you went home your parents would beat you in a drunken stupor?
Did you ever have a rich person look at you like a piece of dirt? Have you ever walked from store to store begging for any kind of work, even cleaning urinals.
I see people of all races do this everyday, I've experienced these things myself.
Their jobs and pride are gone. So is their hope for the future. And yes, this is especially true for African Americans, who are our fellow human beings and Americans who would die for this country.
Keep your prejudices to yourself.

[samsingh]

14. when the liberators get

brutal (or more brutal than the regime they're replacing) you know you're on a downward spiral. History has shown this repeatedly.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Wonder if this is the 56 year old man in the story?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/in_pictures/3122169.stm

[Tinoire]

18. Makes me feel so proud!

:puke:

I souldn't deny the Iraqis any revenge they take after what we're doing.

SEND IN THE UN! BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!

US OUT OF IRAQ!

[dwillison]

20. Surely someone besides me on this board thinks

our troops are doing somethings right in Iraq. If anyone can show
me an original positive thread concerning our military on this board
I will quit posting here.

There is a reason Democrats have lost the White House, Congress,
Gubernatorial control of three of the four most populus states (and
could be about to lose the fourth) in the last ten years or so..

[TahitiNut]

21. Were the NYPD doing "somethings right" when they

... killed Amadou Diallo?




You might notice that this cartoon is an echo of exactly the same "argument" you've just posed. It's interesting that such general appeals to advocacy and sympathy are typical when atrocities are committed.

[HungryLoser]

117. You're right!

Speaking of law enforcement people..There's an interesting story I heard today from a suburb of Chicago.
A cop was found gulty of beating his 12-week old puppy to death, besides being immediately fired, he's facing up to 3 years in jail. What would have happen if it was a human?

[TahitiNut]

120. I guess the cop couldn't convince anyone ....

... that he thought the milk bone in the puppy's mouth was a gun. :eyes:

[HungryLoser]

122. I don't know why that just made me laugh... lol

the truth is sometimes sick like that

[HungryLoser]

124. I believe his excuse was

that it bit him. Now how hard can a puppy bite, and why did he do it?
Another story from Chicago today..
Chicago police officer shoots and kills a "suspect" after the "suspect" threatens him with a gun.. except that the "suspect" was shot in the back, from a distance. Makes me ashamed. :-(

[headlouse]

134. that was hilarious!!!!

oh my gawd! I really needed that!

I just got done watching Micheal Moore's Awful Truth -- the episode with the NY African-American Wallet Exchange program -- and your comment struck home right on my humor gland!

[Spentastic]

22. Oh yeah, they've done really well.

They are doing what they are paid to do. They invaded a country, killed loads of people and they are now occupying said country. They are now being attacked on a regular basis, are hamstrung by their orders and have becomed stressed and are now brutalising the population.

For all that some of them are probably just really nice guys in the wrong job at the wrong time.

[pw]

23. Doing things "right" in Iraq isn't noble, it's the law

We broke it, we bought it.

I feel sympathy for our troops over there, and hope they come home safely, and worried when our government leaves them unsupported, but obeying the laws of war is what they signed up for, and randomly beating up civilians is against that law.

[sujan]

24. yes

I wish to pose a question the 'support the troops' crowd.

Define your support:

1. withdrawal from Iraq to prevent lives
2. support their actions
3. both 1 & 2
4. Other


As for me, I am pretty apathetic at their cause.

[NNN0LHI]

30. That is like you saying to a robber who just kicked your front door in...

..."well hell Mr. Robber, we really didn't want you here to begin with and you are breaking the law by continuing to stay here, but why don't you just continue with what you are doing seeing you are here anyway and steal anything you want".

Do you see the problem with your statement? Hell yes we broke it and we are damn well going to pay for it. In more ways then you can imagine I might add. But if someone kicked my door in I would not want the perp who did it to stay around for a few months while he was supervising the repair of my door. Though I would expect a check for the damages, I would prefer to hire who I wanted to fix the damn door.

Don

[sam sarrha]

36. when we do that to ONE Muslim we do i to ALL Moslem's..i was in an Islamic

republic in the peace corps. we had people driven insane by the culture shock...it is really difficult. but what i learned is that Islam never had an 'Age of Reason' like the West. they see things DIFFERENTLY, in the world of an EYE FOR AN EYE, pretty soon everybody is blind and they want to take your head off. Bush at best was misdirected, and we should NEVER have pissed off that many Moslem's. we got to quit pissing them off and QUIT KILLING THEM. you start a BLOOD feud with ALL their family and friends and community ,...FOR EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bush said in his election that he was NOT going to get us involved in foreign problems. then we get into this problem and start threatening Iran, Syria, Korea...Bush should be impeached for being stupid enough to think that he can change the weave of a culture that for the last 14,000 has been dominated by the cleric's of each mosque in every village, and think we can kill our way into country and tell them we saved them, and we are going to MAKE them run their lives with a system they despise and consider the root of all evil... Bush is not as smart a man as he should have been before he got us into this one. we need to hand this over to the UN and take a back seat.. because it wasn't for the oil anyway..was it?

[Dhalgren]

39. Is the US wrong all the time? No.

Are American troops wrong all the time? No. But what is your point? Jeffrey Dalhmer was sweet to his mother, a real doting son. So what? You can't say, "Hey, US troops helped this hospital and these school children, so they they are given a free pass if they want to brutalize a couple of Iraqis." It doesn't work that way.

Sure, they are in a bad place. Sure, its hard and terrifying, but again, so what? They are there, your elected officals put them there, now they have to abide by the rules. It's a hard life they have chosen, it is a hard situation that your president has put them in, but I have to ask, so what?

[sam sarrha]

104. Islam isn't based on REASON ...a million things done right wont make up

for an INFIDEL KILLING a family member, when we are the Great Satan to begin with...!!!!!!!!!!!:spank:

[sujan]

107. too bad

You can't do anything about it.

[aquart]

83. Our troops CAN'T do anything right in Iraq. That's the problem.

Nothing they do is accepted or acceptable because they are foreign invaders.

If a Nazi soldier gave a candy to a Polish or Danish or French or Norwegian or Russian baby, do you think the mother would let the baby eat it?

Well, sweetie, that's what's happening now.

We invaded a sovereign nation which had not attacked us. We are invaders. We are war criminals just by walking on Iraqi streets.

And our boys can't cope with the new reality: we aren't the good guys.

[Voltaire99]

91. What "our" troops are doing "right" in Iraq

our troops are doing somethings right in Iraq.

Sure. They're beating the hell out of a defenseless country, looting its wealth, denigrating its culture. On those terms, anyway, the invasion is a wild success!

There is a reason Democrats have lost the White House, Congress,
Gubernatorial control of three of the four most populus states (and
could be about to lose the fourth) in the last ten years or so..

And that's by not being Republican enough, right?

Here's a guy who agrees:

http://www.joseph2004.org

[maggrwaggr]

92. Hello spellcheck!

Why is it these people can never spell!

It just cracks me up!

And proves our point ........

Intelligent and educated people don't vote republican

[atreides1]

123. Yes

I personally think that there are soldiers doing the right thing in Iraq, but they are there illegally. They are also responsible for the
actions of their fellow soldiers, and by failing to report these actions to their chain of command, all the good things don't count.
And if the chain of command looks the other way then it's like giving
the troops permission to do what they have been accused of.

Before you go off, I'm a former soldier and a Desert Storm vet, I spent 13 years in the Army and I felt that the Code of Conduct and the Geneva Convention, along with the Manuals of Court Martial were
documents to be be followed. This is what's suppose to make us different from the thugs of the previous regime, the fact that we
abide by these rules. Everytime a US soldier kills an unarmed civilian
all that is being said is that the US is no different then Saddam everytime Task Force 20 breaks into a house and roughs up the people
living there it adds more wood to the fire of hatred, everytime a US
soldier violates the cultural and religious beliefs of the Iraqi people the resistance fighters gain more recruits.


By acting like them and doing what they did, granted not in as big
of a way that was done. US troops are no different from the evil
men that have been overthrown.

So you see all of the good has been erased by the actions of a few.

[baffie]

144. Yes, there is! The Repubs cheated.

[rook1]

25. There is no way

...anyone could possibly know what was happening by looking at the photo you posted. There is no doubt that there are some problems with the way civilians are being dealt with but one photo is not proof of anything.

[bvar22]

32. How many photos do you need?

There are plenty more. Would 5 be enough for you? 10? 50? 10000?

I support the troops. This is not their fault.
This blood is on the hands of the bush*/republican party/Vichy Dems/and Neocon propaganda outlets!

[Dhalgren]

55. And on the hands of everyone who voted Republican.

Whether they are poor, ignorant, peasants from Alabama, or unthinking, gungho soldiers in Iraq. There is so much blood to spread around...so much blood

[IndianaGreen]

46. "one photo is not proof of anything"

Here is another photo which meets your criteria that one photo is not proof of anything. What would be the caption for this picture? How about "Military sightseeing with the locals"?

[sujan]

49. of course

good old USA wont do anything bad.

God blesses the USA.

Our great leader, Heir Bush was appointed by God and god himself told him to wage crusade against the muslims. And no this war is not about oil. Can't you see we're liberating them? by shooting them in the face.

So we are expected to be good little Sheep and support our great leader in his genocidal tendencies.

Don't you get it?

:thumbsdown:

[rook1]

88. To make a connection

...between the treatment of Jews by the Nazi's and what is going on in IRAQ is rediculous. Since hind sight is 20/20 the best option was not to go to IRAQ in the first place. But we are there. Now what do we do? Just pack up and leave? How many more people will be killed by Saddam loyalist's?....we are into it clear up to our necks due to poor leadership. Now, how do we get out of it?

[sujan]

90. yes

you are expected to pack and leave. Because the US involvement is not helping. Dont you get it? They dont like the US government, it is a general feeling among the muslim populace there. I am fearful at the fact that the vitriol may turn against American people in general. Especially after killing tens of thousands of them.

[maggrwaggr]

95. here's my favorite photo

this will make them hate us for a long long time.

[sujan]

96. here's mine

Happy liberation chauvinists.

[Uzybone]

121. Damn

Im not shaken by a lot of things but that picture did chill me to the bone. Im sure the family of that child whose brain has been liberated from his skull loves America. Im sure no terrorists were inspired by crap like this.

[IndianaGreen]

142. I remember that. The man lost his entire family in the bombing.

He buried his wife and children by himself. Tragic, and for what? Bush sleeps soundly at night oblivious and uncaring about all of the death and destruction he has unleashed on an unsuspecting world.

[BenFranklinUSA]

43. This source seems suspect....

go to the link, maybe its just me...

[sujan]

44. the link seems suspect huh?

why?

AFP too propagandous for you?

[IndianaGreen]

48. AFP is "French" and we don't believe anything "French"!!!!!

I am going to McDonald's and get me some Freedom Fries!

[sujan]

52. i knew it

so to clear the doubt, I have mentioned AP stories too. Its just that they aren't willing to listen.

[IndianaGreen]

56. If it ain't on Fox, it ain't true!

If Rush doesn't say it, it doesn't exist!

Ahhh, the simpleton ways of Freeperville...

[sujan]

57. indeed

now they have billboards praising the Lord for Fox.

That is retarded. :D

[BenFranklinUSA]

61. No Single Line Of Copy Is Suspect, But...

on the whole, this site is over-the-top.

If they (the site) want to (and I suspect they don't), reaching the hearts and minds of AmeriKans requires more cake and less frosting.

[sujan]

66. so

Is AFP a suspect too?

Because thats seems to be their news source. I have verified it.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030728/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_raids_030728140406

[dwillison]

45. That was my point to begin with. It just got sidetracked

into this board's hatred for the military simply because
a republican is in the White House. The tone would be 180
degrees different if a democrat were in charge.

That is about as unintellectual as debate can get.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dwillison]

51. The Arab Free Press is an unbiased, non-political organization?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dwillison]

60. I went to AFP Worldwide, If this story is there I can't find it.

AFP Worldwide and Arab Free Press are two different organizations.

[sujan]

62. where did you get 'Arab Free Press'?

More bullshit?

You will not get any news @ AFP, its a corporate website.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030728/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_raids_030728140406

If you bother to scroll around, the sources listed are 'AP' and 'AFP'
not to be mistaken with 'Arab Press' or 'Arab Free Press'.

[dwillison]

65. Google it

[sujan]

67. no you google it

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22arab+free+press%22

No such organization. You are trying very hard but you wont fool anyone here.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[TahitiNut]

75. Strangely, this is a typical epithet on FreeRepublic

Freepers often refer to Agence France Presse as "Arab Free Press". Coincidence???

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/716524/posts

I guess if the foo shits ... :eyes:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

74. Your first post was the foundation of all your BS

a story from an anti-American, anti-Israeli, pro-Arab website

More French-bashing. More finger-pointing. More "we must support our troops".

More BS.

If it's any consolation, they agree with you at Free Republic.

[IndianaGreen]

58. Agence France-Presse

Where is the "Arab" in it, you jingoist?

[Spentastic]

59. Arabs and the French are all the same

If they're not American they need invading!

"They hate us for our freedoms" my arse. I think it's more likely "our idiots".

[sujan]

63. hate our freedoms

lol...what freedoms? The only freedom it seems is to spend money.

[HungryLoser]

126. And there are rules

for that too.

[HungryLoser]

125. So many of 'em too

[Spentastic]

50. Ad Hominem is not allowed

However, you have demonstrated some extremely unpleasant character traits. This has nothing to do with Republicans. It's got to do with U.S troops hitting Iraqi civilians.

Your blind faith in the military precludes you from believing anything bad about them.

[dwillison]

64. Were you equally outraged when the Clinton Administration

used up our inventory of cruise missiles by firing them
at Iraq?

[leftchick]

70. LOL you really do rely on faux news

for your information....

[sujan]

71. forget that

he/she claimed AFP = Arab Free Press. lol. Guess the individual hates freedom of press, if any, in the Arab countries, huh?

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

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[leftchick]

54. "if a democrat were in charge"...

we would not be in Iraq worried about the behavior of our troops...

[LoneStarLiberal]

72. Actually, AFP Usually Means...

...Agencie France-Presse in the journalistic world. Here's a link to their website in English:

<http://www.afp.fr/english/home/>

[dwillison]

73. Did you notice the story in question is not on that website?

[Tinoire]

76. I suggest a course in media or journalism

so you can figure out how it works.

[dwillison]

77. That's a pretty sharp retort but 4 years in the journalism

school at Purdue would not make me see that story on that website.

[sujan]

81. guess you learned

AFP = Arab Free Press there?

The story in question:

Vigilante Justice To Iraq Civilians

BAGHDAD - At the checkpoint, the Americans found a handgun, ordered the 56-year-old man out of his car and proceeded to bash his head with a rifle butt.

Rahim Nasser Mohammed points to his right temple, the side of his mouth and lifts his shirt, to show the spots where the soldier cudgeled him again and again nearly a month ago.

His story -- that of a government employee pulled over in his car by the US army -- seems one in a thousand as reports mount of beatings and sometimes deaths of Iraqi civilians at the hands of US soldiers.

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=8016&TagID=2

Quick search @ news.yahoo.com yields

Iraqi civilians caught in crossfire of US operations


BAGHDAD (AFP) - At the checkpoint, the Americans found a handgun, ordered the 56-year-old man out of his car and proceeded to bash his head with a rifle butt.

Rahim Nasser Mohammed points to his right temple, the side of his mouth and lifts his shirt, to show the spots where the soldier cudgeled him again and again nearly a month ago.


His story -- that of a government employee pulled over in his car by the US army -- seems one in a thousand as reports mount of beatings and sometimes deaths of Iraqi civilians at the hands of US soldiers.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030728/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_raids_030728140406

Sources of both are listed as AFP.

Are you sure that you have a degree in Journalism or should i not recommend Purdue for Journalism?

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

86. Oh Lord! It's worse than I thought. Even in my wildest nightmares

No one who's taken even a year's worth of journalism would call AFP Arab Free Press; nor would they fail to understand why they don't see the story at http://www.afp.com/

I look forward to reading more... progressive and illuminating posts from a... Purdue graduate.

PS. You think it's too late to get your money back? I mean a graduate in Journalism saying AFP is an anti-American, anti-Israeli, pro-Arab website and calling it Arab-Free Press... that's proof of the sorry state our educational system is in. I hope you're voting for a Democrat this year because they're the only ones addressing this problem.

Someone at the National Lawyers Guild should be able to get you a refund for those 4 years. 212 679-5100

[andy12]

139. Purdue translated into french is....

LOST

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[Generic Other]

108. I don't remember LBJ getting a pass on Vietnam

Some of us have been opposed to US military intervention for a long time.

We take the moral high ground all the time. Are you saying it's all talk, and when push comes to shove, "we" get to do the pushing and "they" just need to get used to being shoved?

You know what? My Dad fought in a true war of liberation. He was among the first to march into Berlin. He never mistreated a single citizen. In fact, he punched a Russian soldier he caught trying to steal a German citizen's bicycle. And he would have flattened a fellow GI who smashed a rifle butt into anyone's head. That's just the kind of war hero he was.

[Judi Lynn]

82. It looks as if someone has missed this post

sujan (1000+ posts) Tue Aug-05-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #61

66. so


Is AFP a suspect too?

Because thats seems to be their news source. I have verified it.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030728/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_raids_030728140406


The story is the same, different headline.
Thanks to sujan!

[sujan]

84. forget that judy

we have someone here claiming AFP = Arab Free Press and that the troops are hunting for the hijackers who blew up WTC. Go figure.

[Judi Lynn]

87. I guess any story which doesn't give total license to any damned thing

that happens at the hands of any rightwing American is the product of someone plotting against them.

Yep, when you're on a spree, have the wind at your back, own the biggest death machine in the world, anyone who questions you is the enemy.

Consciences are for cowards!

(Who's teaching our fine new J. students, anyway? They don't seem to know much about journalism, do they?)

[Tinoire]

89. If that guy had 4 years of journalism, I'll eat Tucker's shoes! n/t

[Judi Lynn]

93. This seems to happen more than you'd expect

Someone goes to the trouble of finding corroboration, and they simply refuse to read it.

They just keep on going and going and going!

[dwillison]

97. It's very simple. That story is not on the AFP Worldwide website.

I never said I had a journalism degree. Read/comprehend the post.


Arab Free Press is not a freeper thing. It is Al-Jazeera.

Al-Jazeera does not have a English version website but I would wager
that the story is on there in Arabic.

[sujan]

100. go ahead, keep on burying you head in the sand

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=51817&mesg_id=51817#52232

http://www.afp.com is a corporate website. They dont stream news there. Get it? Mr Journalist.

[maggrwaggr]

101. you'd think in 4 years of J-school he'd learn how to spell

populus

My seven year old can spell better than that.

[TahitiNut]

106. The person never really claimed that.

Read carefully. Note the word "would". That's the escape hatch modality. "Would" implies conjecture not fact.

[BenFranklinUSA]

103. NEWSFLASH: Proof Story Exists...

So, we've proven the "story" exists, now how about the claims within the story?

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[BenFranklinUSA]

105. AFP Suspect Indeed - Question Use Of "Terrorist"

Front Page reads
"Indonesia-blast - Thirteen dead, scores injured in 'terrorist' car bombing of Jakarta hotel"

Not Terrorist? What's the alternative? Government-conspiracists bombed the place?

REAL, OBJECTIVE JOURNALISTS would have written something closer to:
"Indonesia-blast - Thirteen dead, scores injured in car bombing of Jakarta hotel, terrorists suspected"

[TahitiNut]

109. Let me see here ....

Person + Belief = Behavior -> Effect.

So, we take the "effect" (terror) and induce the totality of the hypothetical person, irrespective of hypothetical belief, as a thing (i.e. "terrorist"). Yeah. Sounds logical. :eyes:

[HungryLoser]

118. Sheesh! Enough with the spelling criticism already,

Education and intelligence aren't always the same thing, talk to any republican and it's pretty obvious!