Iraq to Dominate When Bush Sees Anti-War Pope

[struggle4progress]

Pope John Paul, who threw the weight of the Catholic Church against the war in Iraq, meets George W. Bush on Friday in an audience some in the Vatican hope will show the U.S. president how right the pontiff was.

It will be their first face-to-face talk since the pope failed to convince Bush not to invade Iraq and the atmosphere is likely to be very different from their last meeting two years ago.
<snip>

John Paul arguably did more than any other world leader to try to stop the Iraq war, which eventually began in March, 2003. He sent top envoys to both Bush and former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and made many public appeals for a diplomatic agreement.

"It's a good thing that he is coming because the pope has to tell him a few things," Cardinal Pio Laghi said in an interview with Italy's Corriere della Sera newspaper.
<snip>

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=5324111

[happynewyear]

1. I'd love to be a bug in the wall in the Vatican!

I know what the pope will say to him - what he said before! At least (and I mean the very least) Saddam met with the pope!

Keep on going Pope John Paul II! :thumbsup: !!!!! :D

[patrice]

2. ? The only things I've seen The Church throw it's weight against

is choice and same-sex marriage.

It would renew some of my hope in them if we did see something strong against what this pResident has done.

[happynewyear]

3. the Catholic Church is anti-war

and they always have been. Pope John Paul II said to * in March of 2003 that if he went to Iraq he'd be going without God. * refused to meet with the pope! This is nothing "new", believe me on that one.

As for your other concerns, these are also nothing new with the Catholic Church (choice and same-sex marriage). The pope is the pope and that is the way is goes like it or not. The story doesn't tend to ever change, not that I agree with it.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. almost every mainstream church was against the war and said so

publically with great energy and passion, with the exception of the Southern Baptist Convention. They were for the invasion.

Now, contemplating this information, I have always been perplexed as to how Bush can have more than 60% of the people in favor of his invasion and handling of the Saddam invention and lies by Bush

It said to me that Bush was indeed the leader of the Christian religion, obviously because no everyone is a Southern Baptist Convention member, and that the people hold their religious leaders in contempt and prefer an evil man to define their religion for them.

I found that amusing as I watched in unfold.

Now it seems, those numbers are plummeting to near 40%--but it is too late to save the lives of thousands of innocents. So many have died, so many innocents were murdered and killed in direct violation of the tablet given to Moses by the god on the mountain top--that says thou shalt not kill (murder, according to many fundies who try to justify killing people like Muslims in a trumped up faux war.) in this bush "crusade" where he was allowed to define Christianity for so many and was allowed to ignore all of the religious leaders to perform his slaughter and invasion and why are they plummeting now? Have people had an epiphany? It is rather late for that--I suspect it is because they don't have jobs or lost money in the stock market on their retirement benefits or something like that.

[patrice]

6. It is against anything that isn't a "Just War"

I'm not sure that I even believe there is such a thing as a Just War, because there are always political questions about how a Just War became necessary in the first place, and power is always an element in that process.

[Malva Zebrina]

9. It has also been politicized but this invasion, it is obvious cannot ever

be defended as "just". It simply was and is not anything else but greed, striving for empire, and coveting the goods of others. I don't think anyone professing to be a Christian can defend this invasion as an undertaking that would be approved by any leader of any Christian religion except for the SBC.

The question of just or not just is a straw man--it does not matter whether we believe in just or not just--but whether this was a moral thing to do in the minds of any person who claims to be a Christian--whether all codices of Christianity were ignored in favor of greed and I would add, in favor of waging in the case of the very religious Bush, another crusade against the infidels. His god spoke to him--remember?

Oh I know , now that the evil deed has been done, that many will attempt to wash the blood from their hands, shouting "out damned spot" and claim and say it is more moral to stay there and not abandon the stupid people we conquored because they are incapable of forming their own government, but that is another straw man, imo.

[patrice]

11. If people got one thing out of the life of Christ,

it would be that the death of even one innocent person is the result of our sins.

Christ died rather than make war on the Romans for the Jews.

I continue to be surprised by how many "Christians" have forgotten that, and how many seem to think that no innocents die in war, or it is okay that innocents die in war.

If war dead are okay, then aborted fetuses are okay.

Pro-Lifers should see those war dead as equal to aborted fetuses. Theologically, they are the SAME thing. That's the meaning of Jesus.

[Az_lefty]

4. Will * be denied communion?

[Bridget Burke]

7. Yes.

Non-Catholics are not allowed to take Communion in the Roman Catholic church. Church doctrine holds that the Host is the body & blood of Christ, not just a commemorative snack.

[saigon68]

14. Its a photo op to convince catholic sheep to vote for the CHIMPANZEE

After all the chimp opposes birth control and abortion

[TheDebbieDee]

16. Not a commemorative snack? : ^ )

That's a good one, Bridget Burke.

[shrike]

8. I thought the Pope was going to "forgive" Bush

That's what the posting in the GD thread said.

[patrice]

10. He has to confess first, which he won't.

He has to be sorry, which he isn't.

Besides, he's not Catholic. This visit is nothing but politics to shore up his so-called Pro-Life base.

[jamesinca]

12. A little insight into the conversation may have been revealed

From May 18, 2004. Also posted in LBN on that day by spiralhawk
-------------------------------------------------------------------
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A senior American cardinal in the Vatican (news - web sites) has accused the U.S. administration of "moral failure" and deception in Iraq (news - web sites) and warned the war had severely compromised future relations with the Arab world.

In an interview due to be published in the June edition of "Inside the Vatican" magazine, Cardinal James Francis Stafford also said the abuse of Iraqi prisoners was the work of "barbarians." An advance copy was made available to Reuters.

Stafford, the former archbishop of Denver who has been working in the Vatican since 1996, said the reasons for starting the war in Iraq were a "moral failure" because there had been no conclusive proof of weapons of mass destruction.

"Why did the president, the vice-president and the secretary of defense say there was an immediate danger to the peace of American society by the proximate use of weapons that would come from Iraq, either directly or through al Qaeda?" he said. "Why did they say that when they didn't have direct evidence?" Stafford said.


Stafford, who is close to Pope John Paul (news - web sites), said he feared the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by the U.S. military would have long-term consequences on relations with Arabs and Muslims.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

a few choice verses from the Bible:

Revelation 21:8- But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice the magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Deuteronomy 5:11- You shall not misuse the name of the Lord you God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. (traditionally thought to be taking his name in vain, I think it can be applied to using his name to win the favor the the non-thinking fundies)

5:17- You shall not murder
5:19- You shall not steal
5:20- You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
5:21- You shall not covet you neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

James 2:26- As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. ( Say one thing and do another is BS as far as God is concerned ).

James 1:27- Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

[FlemingsGhost]

13. "Lay off the war or new church scandals hit the news."

Or maybe:

"Help us get the Catholic vote, and _________________ ."

Bush isn't going there to make nice. He'll deliver a message from one criminal syndicate to another.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

15. Bush to Condi:

"Fuck the Pope, we're taking him out!"