Pope denounces "self-centered demands" for abortion and same sex unions

[MikeG]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/a/2004/06/04/international1058EDT0538.DTL&type=printable

In his latest blunt assessment of U.S. society, Pope John Paul II on Friday denounced the acceptance of abortion and same-sex unions as "self-centered demands" erroneously depicted as human rights.

The pontiff said that "in the face of such erroneous yet pervasive thinking," visiting U.S. bishops should stress to congregations "their special responsibility for evangelizing culture and promoting Christian values in society and public life."

"Rights are at times reduced to self-centered demands: the growth of prostitution and pornography in the name of adult choice, the acceptance of abortion in the name of women's rights, the approval of same sex unions in the name of homosexual rights," he said.

HERE'S THE PART THAT PISSES ME OFF. ABORTION AND SAME-SEX MARRIAGE ARE NOT EXCLUSIVELY AMERICAN. STICK THIS POPE IN A REST HOME AND GET ONE THAT ACTUALLY KNOWS ABOUT AMERICA OR THE WORLD.

[Warpy]

1. how about self-centered attempts to shield pedophiles

and hold onto power?

[Eye and Monkey]

11. And he should have denounced self-centered invasions & occupations.

[2Design]

2. Bush's medal to pope must have got what he wanted....

more religious.....propoganda......and voting for a person who believes in murdering people world wide.....a real terriorist and the pope is working for him tooo..... bush I fund raising in England... their are evil people is lots of high places....

[SlavesandBulldozers]

3. is that what he was saying?

im glad somebody was able to understand.

[Geo55]

6. language problem

Must have been SOME meetin' 'tween the shrub an' him...
neither of 'em speaks english.

[Gildor Inglorion]

4. The phrase "holy shit" just took on a whole new meaning...

What does this evil old man's pathetic, primitive superstition have to do with my rights as an American citizen? Oh, Henry II, where are you when you're needed?

[Longhorn79]

8. Supersitition?

The day you have an out of body experience you will laugh at how primitive the thinking is of Godless atheists.

[WillParkinson]

56. Primitive?

Oh, that's too rich.

We're primitive because we don't see fire and think it's a gift from the gods.

[playahata1]

28. I think that was Henry the EIGHTH,

who told the Catholic Church where it could go.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. phrases like "pathetic, primitive superstition " don't help

I am part of the religious left and statements like that drive a wedge in our common attempt to take the country back to the left. It is not very bright to beat up on people who might agree with you otherwise.

[doni_georgia]

65. Well said

I also am a leftist Christian, and one who believes that the entire Christian right - not just the radicals but a number of more mainstream right-wing Christians - have totally "forgotten" the lessons in James, to say nothing of the Sermon on the Mount.

This pope is taking a theological stand for political purposes. That's never a good idea when your God reads all hearts. Christians are not instructed to love "some" of their neighbors as themselves. In this world shrunken by near-instantaneous communication, tied together in a global economy and dimly becoming aware of the fragility of our ecosphere, *all* people are our neighbors now. And I wonder if from a divine perspective it were ever otherwise.

I would not want a radical Islamist, for example - whether down the street or on the other side of the world - ridiculing me for my faith. It is therefore unsuitable for me to treat his belief with any less dignity than I desire for my own faith to be recognized. It is in action, in the deeds that we do, that our true motives are revealed, and whether they confirm or deny our words - and by extension, whether we edify or mutilate the words and actions of others who share our beliefs.

We should never accept that a radical few Islamist terrorists represent the majority of people of that faith. To do so is to make the same mistake that many people make in assuming that nutballs (a low term, I know, but it's pretty much accurate) like Fred Phelps are representative of the Christian faith. I don't agree with atheists, or agnostics, or Muslims, or Zoroastrians, or Hindus, or Animists, or Wiccans.....and I am willing to discuss their faith as well as my own at any time, not out of a desire to convert anyone per se, as much as simply to help another person understand my point of view, and to gain therein a fuller understanding of theirs.

It is difficult at best to love someone you do not know, and impossible to love someone whom you have no interest in understanding. This is at the core of both the conflicts between all faiths and the problem with this particular pontiff: ignorance of one's neighbor and his/her concerns, experiences and hopes. You may scare a few souls or touch a few hearts with stirring words or threats, but in the end, your actions are what truly change lives. This pontiff, sadly, gives every appearance of loving his doctrines more than he loves the very people for whom I believe the Son of his God gave up everything to redeem, because He loved them unconditionally. Even worse, I am not certain that this is not an overgenerous observation.

Sorry to be (a) wordy, (b) obtuse, (c) a pious little shit, or (d) all of the above...

Mac in Ga.

edit: grammatical correction

[mike1963]

5. fuck a buncha popes. I don't give a shit what that senile old fart says,

although I appeciate his opposition to the Iraq invasion, it's a broken clock syndrome. Almost. That old sonofabitch is right once every five fuckin' years.

[Longhorn79]

9. that disrespect is hideous considering how much

this pope has done throughout his life to help people who desperately needed it. If nothing else, read a brief bio on the guy, and if you still feel the need to say fuck the pope, then you're not the type of person I consider on my side politically or in any other way.

[MikeG]

13. The point of this post is more the Pope's stereotyping of Americans.

[saracat]

14. Excuse me,

But I was raised a Catholic and I don't feel that this Pope has ever done anything to benefit any of the world's people(And please don't go into the anti-communist thing .That is yesterday's news!) Any you are right, but it is the disrespect that this Pope has shown women and gays that is hideous. The respect that this Pope has shown the victims of Church sponsored pedophilia is hideous and the respect that he grants me as a women able to make her own reproductive choice is hideous.I do say F***K the Pope. And if you think the Pope has respected any of these people then you are correct.You are not the type of person who would be on any liberal's side politically.And ,yes, I have read his bio!

[Longhorn79]

19. Well, as I sift through all your grammatical errors

I'm sorry that 'yesterday's news' of polish jews being tortured by nazis isn't current enough for you. If you had truly read Karol Wojtyla's biography you would be shamed by that disgusting epithet you wrote. I abhore the pedophilia the same as you, and most importantly, the same as the pope. He knows that there is no place in Catholicism for that kind of act.

P.S. Since my wife has been pregnant, and I have felt my daughter kick and heard and seen her suck her thumb and swing around her cord, I realized it is positively disgusting and inhuman to KILL a baby before it happens to be born.

[saracat]

21. Well it certainly appears that you were right in your original

contention that we would not be political compatriots!
I am afraid the the torture of Polish Jews by the Nazi's is "yesterday's news" especially when we have current issues of prisoner abuse by our own troops. And while the Pope may have done much for liberation of those prisoners, the support of the Church for the Nazis is indisputable,but I don't suppose we should go there.
As for the issue of pedophilia. the Pope obviously was not sufficiently bothered by it to do anything about it until he had no choice. It has been documented that the Vatican was aware of these abuses for years.One of the Bishops who turned a blind eye to these abominations, and was relieved of his post, has now been rewarded with a position at the Vatican! But you say "there is no place in Catholicism for that kind of act" ! Apparently there is , and it is in the Papal City!
I congratulate you on the coming birth of your daughter. She appears to be a wanted child who will come into a happy home.Not all women are provided with such happy circumstances. As a member of a gender that cannot give birth, I don't think you ought to force your opinion of what is disgusting about the termination of a pregnancy upon the only gender that assumes the ultimate responsibility for such an act.I only hope your daughter will grow up in a world in which she has the ability to exercise choice over her own body.

[cap]

23. pope has denounced the war on Iraq and is

working to keep the war on terrorism from being a christian vs muslim war.

[saracat]

22. And p.s.

"polish jews" ought to have been capitalized ,as in Polish Jews, otherwise you are using the word Polish as the word polish and not showing sufficient respect for the Jews . I thought you might like to be made aware of that fact as you seem to be hypercritical of grammer!

[Mandate My Ass]

29. The "I'm so in love with my fetus

that I know all abortion is wrong" argument.

Priceless. :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

32. That's his choice.

Ironic, isn't it? :eyes:

[Mandate My Ass]

36. He wants to choose for everyone

but I guess that's OK since he's "sure" it's inhumane.

That'll have to be good enough for half the population to give up their reproductive choices.

[TahitiNut]

38. "irony"

Not just a fashion fetish anymore. :silly:

[Longhorn79]

41. The funny thing is that I AM pro-choice

It is such a travesty when that choice is denied to those millions of babies.

[saracat]

54. The funny thing here is that you are posting on a pro choice site.

And many of us believe that the women's right supersedes that of a fetus!

[egalois]

63. I've got to agree with Longhorn79...

a fetus is a baby, and babies are precious and dependent. If one is pro-choice, one should make the choice to keep one's legs together.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. but you do think it is okay to force someone else to be an incubator?

I have no intention of attacking religion here since I am myself religious. However women have a right to make decisions regarding their own life and future. You don't have to be pro-abortion to be pro-choice.
In other words mind you own business.

[dawn]

44. Well, that's fine for you.

Just don't expect that everyone else will want people like you and the Pope to make their reproductive decisions for them.

[Seabiscuit]

48. You should read

the Supreme Court's well-reasoned decision in Roe vs. Wade very, very carefully before making such irrational proclamations. The core issue is at what point in time does a fetus become a "human" life, in the sense of possessing "human" rights, i.e., the full protections of the law. It has nothing to do with whether or not a fetus is a human life (as opposed to some other form of life). By definition, abortion, as limited and circumscribed in that decision cannot therefore be labeled "murder", as a matter of law. Like it or not, that is the law of our land, and anyone who wants to overturn that decision is blindly and mindlessly advocating a return to black market back-alley butchering of desperate women with "instruments" like coat-hangers (many of them victims of rape, many who would die without aborting a fetus threatening their lives) which was the norm prior to the Roe vs. Wade decision.

BTW, my wife is also pregnant, and we can also feel our "baby" kicking. But we have no problem at all with the law of the land which declares that our "baby" is not entitled to the full protections of the law until it is born and takes its first breath on its own. Until then there is *always* the possibility of natural miscarriage. We happily refer to our fetus as our "son", etc., but we don't delude ourselves about what it means to be pregnant with a fetus, as opposed to what it means to be a parent of a living, breathing, independent "human" child.

[jdj]

50. Whoa.

I'm speechless.

I just copied that into a folder. Thanks, that was incredibly well put.

[Seabiscuit]

52. Thank you.

But no need to feel "speechless". Always feel free to speak up. This is America, after all.

I thought I was just stating the obvious. :-)

[Seabiscuit]

62. I should add three points:

1. My wife is a "human being" entitled to full protection of the laws, including the right to choose. My "baby son", i.e., the 24 week old fetus in my wife's belly, is alive, and has many physically "human" attributes, but is not yet a "human being" entitled to *any* legal protections, beyond those extended by the Court in Roe vs. Wade, and does *not* possess the legal right to choose (as if it could express its choice even if it had one to begin with - two absurdities combined). If for some reason the fetus became defective enough in a medically scientific sense to threaten my wife's life, or even her ability to conceive another child, I would choose my wife's life and welfare over that of an unborn defective fetus any day, yet that is not even my choice to make: it's my wife's choice, and hers alone, based on the best medical advice available. I would see my role as merely offering counsel and support to my wife to give greatest weight to all available medical specialists' advice prior to making her final decision. My politics and my religion (regardless of what they might be) have absolutely *no* business entering into this medical decision making process. As a matter of law. And as a matter of ethics and morals as well.

:think:

2. Prior to Roe vs. Wade, only the poor and desperate women were subjected to the back-alley quack treatment with the coathanger manglers. The wealthy blue-blood blue-haired rich bitch repuke women who could afford to travel to well-trained and pricey abortionists in more enlightened countries (where abortion was legal) at that time did so all the time. Yet it is some of these same blue-haired floozies and their brainwashed offspring who since Roe vs. Wade have opposed legalizing abortion for the rest of the American female population. Them and their equally hypocritical right-wing fundamntalist "Kristian" husbands. They're the type that dishonestly scream "murder" outside abortion clinics.

3. No Pope, no Minister, no Rabbi, no Cleric, no Mullah and no Hari Krishna has *any* business pontificating on these issues to the American public, whether to attempt to dictate how others should live, to undermine the law, or, even worse, to perversely influence a presidential election. These are legal and ethical issues, which are solely the province of the Supreme Court in America, which is the final arbiter of the meaning of the U.S. Consitution (see Marbury vs. Madison).

[jdj]

49. How many children have you adopted, or how

many do you foster?

Yes, it's tragic, no doubt, although I am sure many would disagree. I see those kids that get to go back to God as lucky little angels compared to the life that some unwanted kids live, since so many foster kids are subject to sexual abuse and violation, foster parenting being a magnet for a significant # of the pope's pedophile buddies.

Regarding Pimp John Paul, I can think of few things more self-centered that this holdover from the eunuch priest days holding himself up as the living representation of God. That is the sign of a true nutjob. If one is God then we all are God.

If we have to admire anyone like this, let it be Sinead O'Connor herself, who blew the whistle on this asshole over a decade ago and was excorciated for it. Her beautiful rendition of the Marley song "Racism" for which she substituted the words "Child Abuse" as she sang a cappella on that stage to a chorus of boos, still rings in my head. We really need to start a "booed off the stage" hall of fame, to honor the real truth tellers in this society.

[mike1963]

37. Fine. Fuck the pope.

:grr:

[Rockholm]

39. Fuck the Pope....There I said it...

The Pope is the ringmaster for thousands of pedophiles. This NEGATES all the good that he has done. Sorry.
His church should have NO power over my state.

[dawn]

43. Well, fuck the Pope, then.

haha!

He's not God, by the way.

[WillParkinson]

57. Just like the person who says 'godless atheists'...

Can't be on my side either?

I did not realize we had to agree on everything to be on the same side. Guess we'll just have to go our separate ways, then.

[MikeG]

7. You see, they don't have abortions or gay people in Europe.

Just in America. It must be something in the water over here.

[doni_georgia]

66. If there's something in the water,

then the radical right will say it's Clinton's fault.

If the radical right says it's Clinton's fault,
Then it won't be held accountable for the results.

If they're not held accountable for the results,
Then they can do anything they feel like doing.

If they can do anything they feel like doing,
Then they'll want to do something that makes them rich.

If they want to do something to make them rich,
Then they'll engage in some sort of huge industrial scam.

If they engage in some huge industrial scam,
Then they'll want to be sure to maximize their profits.

If they make sure to maximize their their profits,
Then they'll cut costs in every conceivable fashion.

If they cut costs in every conceivable fashion,
Then they won't spend enough money on proper waste disposal.

And if they don't spend enough money on waste disposal......
Then there will be something in the water.

(yes, that one's mine - a bit off topic, sorry, but posted in a moment of feeble, imitative inspiration)

Mac in Ga.

[rawtribe]

10. I

denounced the acceptance of the pope.

[gratuitous]

12. Did he issue his denouncement from the throne in his palace?

And did he make the statement before or after his catered meal and examination by his personal physician.

You know, the same sort of accoutrements Jesus enjoyed.

[despairing optimist]

15. The pope doesn't go far enough!

He should have included our other "self-centered demands," such as those included in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. The Enlightenment may not have been popular with the Church, but (thank, um, Lucifer?) it was with the Founding Fathers.

What we need to do is stop caring what the pope says. Church attendance is down, parishes are failing and consolidating, and aside from a hard-core minority of the faithful, Catholics say hosanna in the pews and go their own way after Mass is over. Now if they'd only stop contributing money to support their own oppression, they'd be on to something.

The pope knew when to stop criticizing US politics, at the point where there's current controversy. He wouldn't dare completely speak his mind and condemn our rights to free speech and elective government lest he alienate the Catholics who constitute the mainstay of the Vatican's financial support and ruin the Church's mission in the Third World. The Church is at its core inimical to democracy, and has adapted to it because it must to survive. How's that for self-centered?

Oh, puh-leeze!

[struggle4progress]

16. How about denouncing the "self-centered demands" ...

of greedy war-mongering capitalists?

[PartyPooper]

17. I'm sorry that I'm such a self-centered individual.

I'm a gay Christian. So what? I'm not asking for special privileges...just the same ones afforded my straight brothers and sisters. Is this asking for too much?

Besides, Jesus never denounced those like me. So, stop your pontificating!

O8)

[MikeG]

18. The stereotyping of Americans by the Pope as immoral...

only helps the terrorists.

[lebkuchen]

20. Just what the world needs--more unwanted impoverished kids w/o health care

If we are not to have abortions, then we need to start a draft for the tubal ligation procedure.

The Pope calls it "self-centered," I call it planetary survival.

[DaveSZ]

24. Self centered attempts to influence elections in foreign countries

:spank:

[lebkuchen]

25. If men got pregnant, abortion would be sacred.

Remember that.

[fudge stripe cookays]

27. Oh, but see...that's birth control! Can't have that!

Remember what the bible says..."Be fruitful and multiply! Or else!"

Or something like that. Never mind the fact that some people living in poverty have 8 to 10 kids and no food or medical care, or decent housing, or clean water, or sanitation....

One of the things I hate most. The sonofabitch keeps going to heavily Catholic Central and South American countries and "spreading God's word", when all he's really doing is telling them to make more babies.

Sad.

FSC

[FlemingsGhost]

26. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ...

The Catholic church is fast becoming irrelevent.

[arwalden]

30. Can Popes Be Forced Into Retirement?

Or are they "Pope-For-Life" no matter how incompetent they may become?

-- Allen

[TahitiNut]

34. PFL.

:shrug: God'll take 'im when he's done. :eyes:

[MikeG]

35. It may have happened centuries ago, but not recently.

[Eurobabe]

40. yet overlooks self-centered demands of

pedophile priests and just war.

[dawn]

42. I denounce the Pope.

so there! :P

[Seabiscuit]

45. Appalling

This Pope has done a lot of good things during his lifetime.

But he's sounding senile these days.

He has absolutely no business sticking his nose in American legal/political issues, especially during a Presidential election year.

I was raised a Roman Catholic. But I was never so naive as to fall for the fantasy that the Pope was the "Holy See" with a direct connection to God, any more than I would imagine that W. has a direct connection to God. The Catholic Church in many ways is still living in the dark ages (which it sponsored back then).

I cannot in good conscience attend Mass any more. Not with this kind of effluvium spewing from the Vatican.

Absolutely disgusting.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Seabiscuit]

51. How about some more neo-con Zionists...

... like Paul Wolfowitz? Oh what a wonderful world it would be. Wacko fundamentalist "Kristians" goose-stepping in unison with the Wolfies.

Wait a minute. Isn't that what we're already stuck with?

:silly:

[Darranar]

58. "If your a Catholic, your most like think the earth is flat as well."

That had better be an exxageration...

Nice little Nazi comparison there, too.

[Lindacooks]

47. Gee, I never thought of self-determination

as selfish. Controlling our bodies and our private lives are fundamental to our rights as human beings, you senile old fart. I cannot stand that man.

[lachattefolle]

53. A Little History

I found the below comment from the judgment issued by Justice Blackmun at a Roe V. Wade web site. Please note that until the 19th century, Christian theology and canon law did not consider life to begin at conception. Also, if you read your bible, you will not find any injunction regarding killing unborn babies, although I'll bet some of the Moabite, Caanite, Philiste, etc. women the Jews slaughtered (per god's command) were pregnant.

3. The common law. It is undisputed that at common law, abortion performed before "quickening" -- the first recognizable movement of the fetus in utero, appearing usually from the 16th to the 18th week of pregnancy 20 -- was not an indictable offense. 21 The absence of a common-law crime for pre-quickening abortion appears to have developed from a confluence of earlier philosophical, theological, and civil and canon law concepts of when life begins. These disciplines variously approached the question in terms of the point at which the embryo or fetus became "formed" or recognizably human, or in terms of when a "person" came into being, that is, infused with a "soul" or "animated." A loose consensus evolved in early English law that these events occurred at some point between conception and live birth. 22 This was "mediate animation." Although Christian theology and the canon law came to fix the point of animation at 40 days for a male and 80 days for a female, a view that persisted until the 19th century, there was otherwise little agreement about the precise time of formation or animation. There was agreement, however, that prior to this point the fetus was to be regarded as part of the mother, and its destruction, therefore, was not homicide. Due to continued uncertainty about the precise time when animation occurred, to the lack of any empirical basis for the 40-80-day view, and perhaps to Aquinas' definition of movement as one of the two first principles of life, Bracton focused upon quickening as the critical point. The significance of quickening was echoed by later common-law scholars and found its way into the received common law in this country.

[TommyO]

55. The pope can...

kiss my fuzzy white ass! As a gay man, my demands are nothing more, or less, than full equality, including in marriage laws.

[Darranar]

59. Advocacy for abortion rights and gay rights is NOT self-centered...

they are simply an expression of a desire for equality and justice.

This statement by the Pope is disgusting.

[Solly Mack]

60. Funny how rights are technicalities and "self-centered demands" to those

who seek to control others.

So I guess if I really cared about society, I'd shun those pesky self-centered demands for the good of the whole?

[Sandpiper]

61. A sexless, unmarried old geezer

Spouts off at the mouth about marriage and pregnancy. Good thing he can claim he speaks on authority of some invisible friend. Otherwise, everyone might think he's just full of shite.

[Skittles]

64. the Pope, talking about being "self-centered"

that's rich

[Disturbed]

67. The Vatican and Jesus

I watched documentary about that palace. Does anyone feel that Jesus would live there and put on those fancy closthes and sit on a throne?
Would Jesus be a Catholic? News flash! Jesus was a Socialist and hung out with the outcasts of society of his day. He didn't declare himself King of anywhere. Who knows maybe he was gay. No one can proof that he wasn't. From what I have read of him it sure seems that he wouldn't have condemned gay people. The Catholic Church bases itself on Jesus but in my view Jesus would not be real pleased with that church's history or it's present situation.