Titanic crumbling faster, losing items to possible looters

[PfcHammer]

http://www.tribnet.com/entertainment/story/5158124p-5090359c.html

Titanic crumbling faster, losing items to possible looters
DIANE SCARPONI; The Associated Press

MYSTIC, Conn. - The undersea explorer who found the wreck of the Titanic 19 years ago has returned to the North Atlantic site to find out why the luxury liner is decaying more quickly than expected.

Robert Ballard and other researchers hope their two weeks of surveying and researching will lead to efforts to preserve the Titanic and other wrecks and protect them from looters and thrill-seekers.

In live broadcasts from the federal vessel Ronald H. Brown, researchers said Friday they have noticed that many of the Titanic's structures have collapsed and many items seen years ago are now gone.

It was unclear whether the items - including the ship's bell and an ornate light from the mast - have decomposed, fallen or been stolen.

[hlthe2b]

1. Sad, very sad.... Did you hear about the couple who got married

among the wreckage in a mini submarine? What do you want to bet they had Celine Dion singing in the background? Sheesh...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. Stolen?

At 12,000+ feet under sea, I would think that it's finders keepers.

[Beaker]

3. but...but...it's HALLOWED ground.

Remember- that's the final resting place for a LOT of white people.

[Ripley]

7. What the hell does THAT mean?

Whether you like it or not, it was the largest ship ever built and was engineered to be "unsinkable." The sinking was a pretty horrible historical disaster and subsequent find.

Do you really have to shit on "white" people to make yourself feel better? Would you feel more sympathy to the situation if it had been a boat load of Africans?

[recon54]

11. Decaf, folks

I'm a newbie here, so I hope I'm not pissing in anyone's cornflakes, but....

I don't think the poster was "shitting" on white people, or any people for that matter.

To a degree, I myself have this sentiment of "what's the big fucking deal, it was a big boat, it was a cool metaphor for human hubris, it sank, people died, shit happens."

Sure, it was a tragedy, but people seem to equate the Titanic with like some massive, earth-shattering catastrophe. In terms of human cost, there are landslides and massive rains whose death tolls dwarf the titanics, and those get a couple paragraphs in the news, then get forgotten about.

And the poster's sarcastic implied concept that because white, or "western" folks were on board makes the Titanic's site "hallowed" ground isn't out of line imho -- again, if you look at the way western media is constructed, 5000 dead westerners is a much, much bigger deal than 5000 dead __insert color/religion/race/what-have-you__. That's just the way it is.

Fact is, if that movie hadn't been made, the Titanic would be a lot less media-worthy than it is now.

Anyway -- I think there are a lot better things right now to get railed up about.

Just my two cents.

[Ripley]

12. Bullshit.

Welcome to DU, but that's shit. The Titanic is probably the most widely known historical disaster....the combination of the engineering feat of building such a ship and the horrible way it went down. It has been an interest to history buffs long before Cameron cashed in on it.

The poster clearly made remark that would be deleted if it had said black instead of white. Yes, the news tends to pick and choose it's disasters and which loss of lives are covered. I remember when a hurricane hit Central America a few years ago...the news didn't report it except to say a few Americans died in the Gulf on a boat due to the storm. Yet thousands died in mudslides in Honduras or where-ever it was.

But in the context of the Titanic, why should I only care if it were Africans or Chinese or anybody but white people on board? Shouldn't I have a little sympathy for how that happened irregardless of who they were? Anyway, the movie actually showed pretty graphically how wrong it was of the White Star line to put the poor people in steerage like animals and then now allow them to get on the life boats, which there wern't enough of on board. The lessons learned were that all people should be able to exit a sinking ship regardless of wealth and that safety procedures and boats need to be in place on ALL ships.

Christ, some of you need to read a little history.

[recon54]

13. Heh....

Well, I appreciate your reply, and suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You're right, it has been "an interest to history buffs" long before Cameron cashed in on it. It took Cameron to trivialize the story into cultural junk, starring Leo and Kate. If it weren't for the movie, it would still be history buffs and the History Channel.

I'm not trying to say the Titanic is irrelevant, but I will sustain my point that it's a chapter in human history and engineering that's not qualitatively or quantitatively more or less important than, say, the Hindenburg disaster, and not more or less important a chapter in maritime historical disasters than, say, the story of U-Boat crews in WWII, or the loss of the Scorpion back in '68. But you don't hear about those every other day -- or rather, you won't until Hollywood figures out a way to tie in a love story around those events.

Speaking of movies and U-boats, yeah, I saw U-571 -- another trivialization of a potentially strong narrative -- the actual story of U-570, the only U-Boat to have been captured and re-launched back at sea by the Allies in August of '41 would have made for one hell of a flick).

>Christ, some of you need to read a little history.

Tsk tsk, that's not a very nice thing to assume.

I personally started reading about the Titanic back when I was about 10 or so, and remember the anecdotal pieces, that the sinking was the first use of --- ... --- SOS (save our souls, or was it save our ship?).

> The poster clearly made remark that would be deleted if it had said black instead of white.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

Anyway -- thanks for the welcome.

[Ripley]

14. Yes, we can be civil.

Some of us at DU can disagree and not throw doo-doo at someone who disagrees with our point of view.

Didn't mean to slight your historical knowledge. However, when I read other posts saying things like...the boat sunk, get over it! I don't think they read much history.

Again, the story of the Titanic is not just white people claiming how superior they are. The story has enormous drama inherent in it because of the multiple angles (and yes, part of it was shocking to people that such wealthy high profile people died or nearly died). It didn't take Cameron to make it a very magnetic story.

I can become just as indignant as the next person when an entire group of people are ridiculed, belittled or demeaned solely on the basis of the color of their skin.

Anyway, enjoy your time here. :toast:

[recon54]

15. Indeed...

... cheers :-)

[newyawker99]

25. Hi recon54!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[rppper]

29. wrecks like the titanic, lusitania, the arizona, etc are graves......

they are the final resting place for hundreds if not thousands, as in the titanics case.....they should be left alone. it eqates to grave robbing IMHO...grave desecration if you will...cameron cashed in on this morbidity....

this has been an unspoken rule of the sea for thousands of years untill the technology became available to reach these ships....i suppose time brings down a lot of barriers...too bad this was one of them...

[Puglover]

30. Umm

how do you feel about tombs in Egypt and other places? Hands off?

[Gman]

16. I grew up hearing my grandmother talk about the Titanic

She was a young girl when it sank and had nothing to do with it at all. However, whenever the old B&W movie would come on, she would just comment (in her dreadful voice) just how terrible it was that the Titanic had sunk. I don't know why I remember this, but I do. So I think the media had a huge role in how the sinking was first communicated and the way it was communicated and I think it made a huge impression on people at the time.

1,500 people dying is no small deal, but the media, in its never ending quest to be even more sensational has caused us to be the (I don't want to say "calloused") most desensitized people in history. I don't feel the Titanic's sinking was a horrific event now. But, because of my grandmother and the way she was still shocked by the sinking, I appreciate what people alive at that time felt. Others not having the same insight probably don't feel the same. But lets not let go of that feeling about the Titanic now, just because we can't relate to the impact the sinking had on the public 92 years ago. We should keep some links to the much simpler times as long as we can.

[Beaker]

19. you're dead on... good comprehension skills, i must say!

honestly, i think that some of the people here get out of bed in the morning with their undies already tied in a knot

[JayS]

32. The loss of the Titanic...

...shook the foundations of a world that had placed so much faith in the new technological wonders of the age. It was more of a psychic whammy than our Challenger explosion.

And since its sinking the Titanic has been featured in many books, movies, plays, paintings, etc.

[TankLV]

39. And it shook the foundations of the class-based society, too.

One thing this latest interest in it has done, is opened discussions on the different treatments for the different classes of people on board, including in their time of need.

Those that were in steerage and poor, had NO lifeboats. They were reserved only for the wealthy, 1st & 2nd class passengers.

My both sets of grandparents and great uncles and aunts came to America in steerage on other less famous ships - so it is also important on how America looked at immigrants.

All of these issues are extremely relevant today.

We seem not to have progressed much at all in the treatment of "those people".

We we can habitually stop saying "those people" and replace it with "us", will be a sure sign of progress.

It is especially illuminating in light of the repuke puke fest for ronnie raygun who made it OK to hate again and brought the progress of the Liberals and Democrats and the New Deal to a screeching halt - where we are now forced to just defend what we've all gained - let alone even THINK of adding to our great progressive strides!

[Name removed]

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[sidpleasant]

28. Re: "it was the largest ship ever built"

If you meant "it was the largest ship ever built at that time" you'd be right but there are many much larger ships afloat right now. The supertanker Jahre Viking is over 600 feet longer, over twice as wide, and 12 times heavier than the Titanic, for example.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Say_What]

33. Tells me how much you knew about the passengers and class society

at the end of the Victorian era. Most of the dead were 3rd class (steerage) passengers their decks LOCKED OFF by law so that they had little chance to survive.

1st Class Percentage Survived: 63%
2nd Class Percentage Survived: 43%
3rd Class Percentage Survived: 25%

CLASS DISTINCTIONS

1. For some perspective, here is the price of tickets: First Class tickets ranged from £30 for a berth to £870 for a luxury suite with a private fifty-foot promenade. A Second Class ticket could be purchased for as little as £12. Steerage tickets ranged from £3 to £8.
2. First class women and children were about 6% of those aboard the Titanic, but constituted 20% of the survivors. In contrast, steerage passengers were a third of all aboard, but only one fourth of those saved.
3. First Class suites, berths, and social rooms were located in the center of the ship on the higher decks. They had immediate access to the boat deck and all of the lifeboats.
4. Second Class rooms were further aft, but Second Class passengers did have immediate access the part of the boat deck closest to the stern.
5. Steerage passengers had rooms on lower decks and no direct or immediate access the boat deck. Many steerage passengers who survived did so only by reached boats that were launched or by being plucked from the sea.
6. It is difficult for us now living close to a century later to realize and imagine how different people lived and thought. Bigotry of all sorts, especially classism and racism were commonplace and expressed not just publicly but matter-of-factly. For the most part the way things were was accepted by both the privileged classes and races and the underprivileged.
7. By law (passed for public health reasons), gates separating steerage passengers from the other passengers had to be locked. Back then steerage passengers were equated with emigrants who were equated with disease and pestilence.

http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html#deaths

[ronnykmarshall]

40. The majority that died were POOR people.

[Tansy_Gold]

6. Salvage rights, IIRC

I'm not an expert (my frequent disclaimer) but I recall seeing something on tv about the guy who recovered a bunch of items from the Titanic and set up a museum-for-profit.

Ballard, who originally discovered the wreck, made the mistake (he later admitted) of not claiming salvage rights. His intention was to leave the wreck alone, not try to make any money off any riches that might be there. But international salvage law (?) requires that in order to "claim" a wreck, one must recover at least one item, perhaps as proof that they've actually found it.

Ballard didn't do that, so the wreck became fair game for whoever did collect something and claim the salvage rights.

[meegbear]

4. The boat sank

GET OVER IT!

[Retrograde]

18. It's the whole "end of an era" thing

I confess to being a Titanic fanatic even though I have no personal connection with it (I do know someone whose grandmother was on it, or so he claims).

Think back a hundred years from 1912: in that time span Western technology as we know it was pretty much invented - chemistry, physics, engineering, great strides in medicine, most of the world was explored and charted and people were starting to make inroads into the sky. I believe that the advances in technology someone who was in his or her seventies in 1912 would have seen in their lifetime are greater than someone of the same age would have seen today: we're seeing refinements and ideas carried to their conclusion - they saw real technological and scientific revolutions.

Anyway, by 1912 there was a belief that given enough technology humankind could solve any problem. "Bigger and better" was the order of the day (sound familiar?). Then the Titanic sinks just because it and this iceberg happen to be in the same piece of the ocean at the same time.

It was, IMHO, more because of the symbolism - a cosmic reply to mankind's hubris - than the actual number of fatalities that the Titanic continues to get as much press as it does, pride going before a fall and all that. There were more people killed in the Johnstown flood, and possibly in the San Francisco earthquake, although there is considerable debate about the actual casualty figures there. In a perverse way, the sinking was almost made to be exploited by the press: chance collision, stalwart millionaires sharing their fate with faceless immigrants, doomed pleas from the sunken vessel, the captain going down with the ship, dramatic mid-ocean rescue of the survivors...sorry, the Scott Peterson trial is going on about 5 miles from here and I think the purple prose is contagious. It was the Challenger disaster of its day.

Back to the point: yes, it's just a ship, it's not that old, there's nothing really that unique about it (although I think the rusticles and the organisms that make them are interesting), but that's no excuse for wanton destruction.

BTW, the Titanic carried more lifeboats than British Maritime regulations required.

linda

[the Kelly Gang]

5. I was fascinated by the Titanic, after I read that it never sank..

someone once wrote that it was the sister ship Olympic on that fateful voyage, after it had been re-fitted in Ireland..there was supposedly a coal fire in the Titanic's bunker that couldn't be reached so the owners decided to switch the name plates and send the sister ship on the maiden voyage because of all the publicity..then the Titanic ( changed to the Olympic) kept working right up to WW2 where it was a troop carrier .:tinfoilhat:

[alarimer]

27. I don't know about that

But the White Star line had incredibly bad luck with those ships. Another sister ship to the Titanic sank in the MEditerranean. I don't think it was the Olympic but I can't remember the name. I think it may have been not too many years after the Titanic sank.

I am a shipwreck buff and I am torn between wanting to see historical artifacts from them (because in most cases I will never visit these wrecks) and preserving them as historic sites. But, given that the ocean sooner or later destroys all wrecks, it makes sense that some things at least be preserved. I really have a problem, however, with treasure-seekers- people who hope to make a profit from whatever they find. These people tend to be in it for the money and don't care if the destroy the wreck in the process of removing artifacts. They have no interest in history by and large. I think shipwrecks of historical interest (including the Titanic) should be excavated only by archaeologists and other scientists and not by for-profit organisations.

Like it or not, the Titanic is basically a gravesite. People are still sensitive to that 90 years later. Plus the fact that most of the people who died were the ones in steerage (poor immigrants mostly) who had no chance of reaching a lifeboat because they were basically held prisoner belowdecks really touches a chord with me.

[JayS]

31. The Gigantic.

It served as a hospital ship in WWII. If I remember correctly, it struck a mine and successfully got the water tight doors closed but with a severe list. Portholes had been left open for air, in spite of wartime rules, and that did her in before she could be beached. The only loss of life was from one lifeboat that was launched before the Gigantic's screws had stopped turning. The wreck has only recently been located as it was just one of many ships lost in the war.

The worst ship disaster in the U.S. is still something like 1800 lives lost. This was on a steamship in a river. The death of President Lincoln the next day overshadowed the story.

The Empress of Ireland sank right after the Titanic from a blow that should have not been fatal. I think the loss of life was actually higher than the Titanic in spite of being near land. Virtually all of the second and third class passengers died. The ship is in cold water and to this day newspapers on-board are still legible. The start of WWI made the news of the sinking a minor story.

[Say_What]

34. Three Ships: Titanic, Olympic, Britannic

Three White Star vessels built at Harland and Wolff in Belfast

The Titanic sunk on her maiden voyage.
The Olympic enjoyed a long life (1935) but did collide with the Nantucket Lightship in 1934 breaking the little vessel in half.
The Britannic was a hospital ship torpedoed and sunk in the Aegean in 1916.

[JayS]

36. Oops...Gigantic was the name that was not used...

http://www.snopes.com/titanic/gigantic.htm

After the Titanic disaster, the feverish public interest in these massive ocean liners abated, and the third ship of the planned triumvirate, the Britannic, was finally launched (after extensive modifications and with considerably less fanfare than her sisters) in April 1914. Like her sister ship Titanic, she wasn't around long, though: World War I broke out before the Britannic ever went into passenger service; she was requisitioned by the Royal Navy and pressed into service as a hospital ship; and she struck a mine and sank off the coast of Greece in October 1916.

[JayS]

38. Crap! I meant WWI not WWII. n/t

n/t

[Say_What]

41. Inaccuracies in the article

Titanic's bell has been on dry land for some time now, and Captain Smith's stateroom and bathtub can be seen in some of the earliest footage of the wreck.

However, I did read a few years ago that the explorations were taking their toll on the ship faster than if it had been left undisturbed.

Interesting article by noted Titanic historian Paul Louden-Brown who was also consultant to the Cameron movie.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/society/titanic_01.shtml

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. 'Looters' ?

give me a break

[TryingToWarnYou]

10. Sure.

The French, for example, have been to the Titanic many times, and there are a number of companies with resources that you can hire to take you there. How tempting it would be to grab a little something for your grandkids or for someone willing to pay top dollar.

Ballard made the mistake (2 actually) of not declaring salvage rights and not declaring the site a grave.

[Gold Metal Flake]

35. There are no looters.

You are just seeing the same diver taking the same smokestack over and over again.

[robbedvoter]

17. Sigh - I thought it was an article about Bushco...

[nonbelief]

22. Um....So What?

Is it really such a surprise that a metal ship is decomposing under the ocean?

Let it go, people...There isn't anything the wreck of the Titanic can teach us anymore...

Stop worrying about that hunk of junk and show a bit of concern for the pillaging of shipwrecks of true archeological importance.

[Ripley]

26. Let it go people?

Yeah, you're right. Who should care about one of the most sought after maritime disaster finds. Hell, it's only history.

Let's all talk about JLo getting married! She's cool. Love her ass, wow can that girl pout or what?!!! Gawd is he a lucky mo fo! Wowee! Woopee!! I wish I could be rich and marry J-Lo!

So much more relevant as LBN wouldn't you say?

[bleedingheart]

23. Well duh...

It is under a tremendous amout of pressure at those depths and like most metals and wood it rots under water.

If anything what we should see as the legacy of the Titantic is stricter building standards and better oversight during construction. In addition, corporate desire to be the "fastest and the first" cost those victims of that tragedy their lives.

[Say_What]

37. Titanic: Sinking the Myths

>>If anything what we should see as the legacy of the Titantic is stricter building standards and better oversight during construction. In addition, corporate desire to be the "fastest and the first" cost those victims of that tragedy their lives.>>

The sinking radically changed maritime safety laws on both sides of the Atlantic. Shipping lanes were shifted further south and all ships carrying fifty or more people were required to have a twenty-four hour radio watch.

That *fastest and first* is complete bullsh*t except in the movies.

<clips>
...This would guarantee safety of the passengers once in the lifeboats. Senate inquiry found it “glaringly apparent … here must be an operator on duty at all times, day and night” (Congr. Rec.-Senate,5/28/1912 , 7291). Since wireless was a novelty of the time not many regulations were imposed yet. So, requiring wireless to operate twenty-fours a day would insure the California‘s mistake would not be repeated. In addition, the senate investigation requested that every steel sea going ship have watertight skins. Later, the sinking resulted in US code being rewritten to require an “ice patrol … be maintained during the whole of the ice season” (Title 46, Sec. 738a) and US ships to “proceed at a moderate speed or alter … course” (Title 46, Sec. 738c) when entering a region with icebergs. All the suggestions and changes greatly improved maritime safety, but a more structural reason for the sinking was still to be discovered.

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~dkelle4/The_RMS_Titanic.htm

---

Titanic: Sinking the Myths

Speed

These design differences meant Titanic would never be able to challenge the speed or manoeuvrability of the Cunarders, but this did not matter. White Star had given up all thought of speed records more than a decade before, in 1899, with the introduction of Oceanic, a ship given the title 'Crowning Glory of the 19th Century'. It was justly deserved, for her interiors were the finest ever created by the Belfast shipbuilder of Harland & Wolff.

...Speed plays a major part in the continuing story of Titanic. It is often said she was trying to make a record on her maiden voyage, attempting to arrive ahead of schedule in New York. Not true. Not all of Titanic's boilers had been lit and besides this she was sailing on the longer southern route across the Atlantic in order to avoid the very threat which caused her eventual loss. Even if all boilers had been lit, her maximum speed was 21 knots, a far cry from the 26 knots the Cunarders regularly recorded. Titanic did not attempt a full speed crossing because of the risk of potential engine damage, and her passengers would have been inconvenienced by arriving a day before their hotel or train bookings.

Allegations of cowardice

In reality Ismay helped with loading and lowering several lifeboats and acquitted himself better than many of the crew and passengers. He only entered a lifeboat when it was actually being lowered and no other passengers were in the vicinity. Some witnesses stated he was ordered into the lifeboat but, whatever happened, Lord Mersey said at the British enquiry into the loss of Titanic, 'Had he not jumped in he would simply have added one more life, namely his own, to the number of those lost'.

Ismay's fault was that he survived and as a consequence laid himself open to the high and somewhat dubious moral code of the US press. Almost universally condemned in America, when he finally arrived home he was cheered and applauded as he descended the gangway at Liverpool. The British press had treated the whole episode in a far less judgmental way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/society/titanic_03.shtml


Joseph Bruce Ismay,
chairman and managing director
of the White Star Line
from 1899 until 1913