Bush Asked for Vatican's Help on Political Issues

[Crowdance]

'On his recent trip to Rome, President Bush asked a top Vatican official to push American bishops to speak out more about political issues, including same-sex marriage, according to a report in the National Catholic Reporter, an independent newspaper.

In a column posted Friday evening on the paper's Web site, John L. Allen Jr., its correspondent in Rome and the dean of Vatican journalists, wrote that Mr. Bush had made the request in a June 4 meeting with Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican secretary of state. Citing an unnamed Vatican official, Mr. Allen wrote: "Bush said, 'Not all the American bishops are with me' on the cultural issues. The implication was that he hoped the Vatican would nudge them toward more explicit activism."

Mr. Allen wrote that others in the meeting confirmed that the president had pledged aggressive efforts "on the cultural front, especially the battle against gay marriage, and asked for the Vatican's help in encouraging the U.S. bishops to be more outspoken." Cardinal Sodano did not respond, Mr. Allen reported, citing the same unnamed sources.

A spokesman for the Vatican declined yesterday to disclose the contents of the meeting, which followed the president's brief meeting with the pope. Jeanie Mamo, a spokeswoman for the White House, said: "They had a good, private discussion. They discussed a number of priorities of shared concern, and the president's and the Vatican's positions on these issues are well known."

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/politics/13george.html?ei=5062&en=ed2cc6e292965458&ex=1087704000&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=

edited to insert link

[grytpype]

1. Every day brings a new outrage.

[acmavm]

2. I suppose bush* thought that they'd just jump to obey him. After all,

he, like Moses, speaks to God directly. And God tells him what to do. The new Moses, ya know.

[meti57b]

8. bush asking a foreign head of state (the Pope) to interfere in US election

on his behalf. Isn't that treasonous?

[truthisfreedom]

11. of course it's treason. IMPEACH!

[CBHagman]

34. Bush never misses a chance to attack Kerry for so-called foreign support

Notice that a standard element in Bush's speeches is his snotty, supposedly humorous reference to Kerry's support among foreign leaders. Then Bush drags his sorry behind to Rome and appeals to the Vatican to interfere in American politics.

Bush is a bully, a liar, a coward, and a hypocrite, and displays a disgusting amount of hubris. The sooner the American people wake up to this nightmare, the better.

[oneighty]

3. And JFK

was going to be the Pope's very own president. Bush* sinks to new low.

180

[Joanne98]

4. They're getting desperate

Trying to "USE" the pope. what a disgrace. They're a shameless freak show. I don't think catholics are this gullible.

[shraby]

5. This Catholic

isn't gullible, far from it.

[happynewyear]

27. translation of Swedish text of WHAT THE POPE SAID TO *

From: Aftonbladet, Swedish newspaper
Date: Saturday, June 5 '04
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,487707,00.html
translated by: C. Liss

:hi:

This is from a post that was up over a week ago - translated from Swedish. I think the Pope bitch slapped * IMO and I say that as a Catholic (well of sorts anyway :evilgrin: ) .


The Pope lectures Bush

It became the shortest Papal visit in history: just 15 minutes. But illness and weakness did not hinder the Pope from giving president Bush sharp criticism.

"Don't try to come here waving a medal. I'm still saying no to the war".

St. Peter Square was virtually empty, except for several thousand police and american security forces when USA's President Bush came to the Vatican City yesterday. Cardinal Angelo Sodano escorted the guest up to the ailing Pontiff, who remained seated when the President arrived.

"You know very well the Church's unalterable position on this war," said the Pope and urged the president to quickly normalize the situation.


:kick:

[Kelvin Mace]

43. Well...

It became the shortest Papal visit in history: just 15 minutes. But illness and weakness did not hinder the Pope from giving president Bush sharp criticism.

"Don't try to come here waving a medal. I'm still saying no to the war".

He still accepted the medal. I would believe more in the Pope's "high mindedness" if he told Bush to stuff the medal.

Given that the week before Cardinal Bernard Law was rewarded with a cushy Vatican job instead of being defrocked and I don't see much moral leadership in Rome.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[KittyWampus]

7. They Are Trying To Use The Pope

and hearing your terminology somehow made this seem even more dumbfounding.

Won't their desperation and depravity begin to become impossible to ignore?

[madrchsod]

6. another bush embarrassment

if he get`s elected the world will turn their back on us and we as a nation will deserve every thing that happens..it took 4 yrs to sink this low....

[Rose Siding]

9. Did he put a little something extra in the plate?

[Mz Pip]

10. These people are nuts.

I remember Kennedy coming out and disavowing that the Church had any influence on him politically because PEOPLE BELIEVED IN SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE back then. HE had to assure people that the Vatican would not be calling the shots.

Now Chimpboy, who is not even Catholic, is pandering to the Church to get votes. :puke:

Bush isn't even Catholic. But WTF, we have gone down the rabbit hole and maybe there will be a pipe going across the Atlantic filled with holy water from Rome directly into the White House. (That was a fear back in 1960)

MzPip
:dem:

[alcuno]

17. The Holy Father knows that * thinks he is going to hell.

* has spent a lot of time courting the Bob Jones crowd. They are openly anti-Pope and anti-Catholic.

[jpgray]

32. I think they believed more in the separation of Catholics and State.

:)

[struggle4progress]

12. No easy answers: U.S. debate over Communion reverberates at Vatican

<snip>
Many at the Vatican would agree that a Catholic politician who supports legal abortion could be denied Communion under church law. But on the question of whether this should be done, Vatican opinion is far from uniform.
<snip>

The main reason is that, while the Vatican could spell out the principles involved in the Communion issue, in the end it's up to the bishop to weigh the circumstances and make the judgment. The problem is not the rules, but their application. That involves theological, pastoral and canonical elements, and no Vatican office has sat down and put together a playbook that covers all that.
<snip>

Speaking privately, Vatican officials often draw a lot of distinctions in this discussion. They note that there's a difference between denying Communion and asking people to refrain from the sacrament; between threatening excommunication and quietly urging individuals to examine their conscience; or between rejecting the pro-abortion agenda and realizing that a politician's position may not be easily discerned in a single vote.

They are also aware that the church may not gain politically from this debate. According to one recent poll, 71 percent of U.S. voters said the bishops should not pressure Catholic lawmakers on abortion.
<snip>

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20040611.htm


A short general discussion of Church politics

[Renew Deal]

13. What can i say that I haven't said before?

Get this hateful traitorous war criminal out of my White House.

[goforit]

14. Are the parishioners truely gonna follow these leaders?

I would hope not.

[alcuno]

18. Simple. The * supporters will and the rest won't.

The Church says lots of things that we don't agree with.

[LiberalFighter]

15. All the more reason not to recognize the Vatican as a state

with an ambassador

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

22. And let them pay taxes on what they own here, too while

you are at it.

[LiberalFighter]

24. I agree

The parishioners should support their own church in every endeavor that they pursue without any advantage. Not paying taxes is the same as receiving tax revenue which results in higher taxes to those that either do not belong to the select churches or are not members of any church.

The good works of the churches should be solely the financial and blood, sweat and tears of the parishioners. It is their mission and if they believe so strongly in it then they should supply everything.

[peekaloo]

16. does this mean Gawd isn't talking to him anymore?

:shrug:

[FlemingsGhost]

19. Figurehead puppets for two criminal syndicates

Both grossly overestimate their importance, as their respective organizations frantically search for credibility and relevance.

[tapper]

20. If they supported anyone, it ought to be Kerry...

If the bishops -- some of them, at least -- weren't so fixated on the abortion issue, and were willing to speak up for one of the candidates (though I angrily want them not to -- it's not their place to do so!) they ought to be speaking for Kerry. According to this article,

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/whos_more_catholic.php

a survey of Catholic senators gives Kerry the highest *overall* rating when it comes to voting in accordance with the church's stance.

Bush's attempt to get the R.C. hierarchy to help him is disgusting.

[despairing optimist]

21. One hand washes the other

and there's plenty of dirt to go around. I don't see why people are so surprised. Throughout the history of the church, it has relied on higher clergy to influence emperors and kings. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the reverse can also happen. Occasionally the little people wake up and realize they're being had, and then a revolution or two take place.

If only people would stop providing money to such institutions, their influence would wane even faster than it is now. In any event, both sides of the meeting are on the wrong side of history and in time will be overrun by events they can't and won't see.

The neocons are exactly the sort of people that the Constitution was written to protect the people of the US from. It is up to every concerned citizen to see that it does, that the full weight of the law of the land will be brought to bear upon those who would abuse their powers of office, violate their oaths of office, and collude with foreign powers for personal gain.

[smack]

23. A catholic perspective on all of this

I posted this in the other thread, so not to cross post, but they said it was a duplicate of this discussion and I would like to put a catholic perspective on the whole thing as I don't want everyone on here to think all of us catholics are nuts, so here is my other post:

As a Catholic I have been very upset with the treatment of the whole Bush vs. Kerry issue. I know this is more of a religious perspective than a political perspective, but traditionally the democratic party is much more representative of the Catholic ideology than the conservatives. The key thing with Catholicism is that it is all about social justice. The things the conservatives do, like oppose minimum wage, work against public education, cut taxes for the rich while cutting services for the poor are against what catholicism is all about which is helping out the people below your station in life. I was extremely disturbed as Catholic when I heard that American Bishops mentioned withholding communion to one of their own, meanwhile supporting Bush. The war in Iraq has been defined as an immoral and unjust war according to catholicism, and I don't see the conservatives trying to prevent the poor people access to health care and polluting our water and air. I guess in short I am disappointed with the direction of some of the people in my church, but then again I guess I am much more disappointed in the direction of our country over the last 4 years and I am doing everything I can as far as mobilizing the voters here. I know that winning TX may not be possible for us, but if we can make it a close race that should show a decided lack of confidence in Bush, and would be a big slap in his face. It is tough to be in a land of conservatives after growing up in a progressive state like MN, but I have hope that we can change things down here.

Additionally I would like to add, as someone in this discussion already mentioned, Bush courts a lot of Catholic hating conservatives and I would hope that most of the Catholics are smart enough to see through what he is doing. I guess only time will tell....

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

29. Hear Hear... Welcome to DU smack.

We need smack!
Go Smack!

[goclark]

35. Welcome - love your post!

[Tight_rope]

36. Welcome Smack from a fellow Texan!

Not proud to be a Texan.:(

[Only Me]

25. As a citizen of this country and as a christian ....

Bush's political use of any christian organization seriously offends
me. I truly detest the way that man uses religion like a pawn on a
chess board. If Bush believes in Christianity, then why would he use it as a divisor of the people. If he is an American, why then does he not respect the constition of this country, seperation of church and state? Wonder if he thinks the constitution is evil too.

Why must he have a religios platform to use with the voters?
Because he doesn't have a clue on how to win the elections with out it. He is no leader, he is a cowardly user. I truly pray that
the religious leaders of the world wise up and look to the facts...Bush is a dangerous man.

[cliss]

26. Note the last sentence,

"They discussed a number of priorities of shared concern, and the president's and the Vatican's positions on these issues are well known".

What she means here, is that the Pope was against the war, he didn't appreciate getting a "bribe" of a medal, and he wants the situation in Iraq to be expedited.

At least, this is what I read in 2 Swedish newspapers after BeelzeBush's visit.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

28. Howard Stern's site links to a good Village Voice article...

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0420/perlstein.php

Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move
"The Jesus Landing Pad" by Rick Perlstein
May 18th, 2004

...so his help requests include, but are not limited to, the Vatican.

A sample:

It was an e-mail we weren't meant to see. Not for our eyes were the notes that showed White House staffers taking two-hour meetings with Christian fundamentalists, where they passed off bogus social science on gay marriage as if it were holy writ and issued fiery warnings that "the Presidents Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level"—this to a group whose representative in Israel believed herself to have been attacked by witchcraft unleashed by proximity to a volume of Harry Potter. Most of all, apparently, we're not supposed to know the National Security Council's top Middle East aide consults with apocalyptic Christians eager to ensure American policy on Israel conforms with their sectarian doomsday scenarios.

But now we know.

"Everything that you're discussing is information you're not supposed to have," barked Pentecostal minister Robert G. Upton when asked about the off-the-record briefing his delegation received on March 25. Details of that meeting appear in a confidential memo signed by Upton and obtained by the Voice.

The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth.

[MoonRiver]

30. This is so repulsive.

Scum of the earth is *. :mad:

[Snellius]

31. Note the military terminology: Onward Christian soldiers

"on the cultural front, especially the battle against gay marriage"

[CBHagman]

33. Will St. Anthony of Padua help Bush find his lost marbles?

Happy Feast of St. Anthony everybody, though it's too bad that it has to be desecrated with more political follies from the Bush White House.

:puke:

[Piperay]

37. The vatican is

not with this country on the way it treats the homeless and the environment, is against the Iraqi War and alot of other things. Maybe chimp would like the bishops to speak out about that too. :evilgrin:

[powergirl]

38. Those Guns and Jesus Evangelical types are no friends of Catholics

What nerve of him to ask the Pope. I don't think the Pope even likes Bush - he tried to dodge him to not have to meet with him. So Bush rescheduled is European trip to meet with John Paul II.

[pacifictiger]

39. This ties with sneaky move

by the republicans on a bill set to be heard monday!!!!!
This has been getting no press due to the Reagan lovefest.
If you are concerned about separation of church and state, you need to get on the phone to you congressman tomorrow morning!
Bill would allow churches to endorse candidates without losing their tax exempt status.
-------------------
"Son of Jones" Bill Snuck Into Tax Bill - House Scheduled to Have Hearing on Bill This Monday!

Provision Would Allow Clergy and Houses of Worship to Endorse Candidates Up To Three Times Per Election Year Without Losing Their Tax Exempt Status!

Despite the overwhelming opposition of people of faith and good will across the nation and nearly two dozen religious denominations, House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Majority Leader Tom Delay ordered a version of Rep. Walter Jones’s Houses of Worship Political Speech Restoration Act to be buried on page 379 of a 398 page tax bill (H.R. 4520, American Jobs Creation Act of 2004). While it is not the exact language as the Jones bill, it is meant to appease his supporters just in time for the 2004 presidential elections. Ironically, this amendment comes just days after the Bush campaign was widely criticized for using churches in the battleground state of Pennsylvania to organize voters for their election activities.

Entitled the “Safe Harbor for Churches” bill, the legislation would wreak havoc on the integrity of our religious leaders, houses of worship and the political process. The bill encourages willful ignorance of the law by houses of worship, amending the tax code to permit churches, and only churches, to engage in political campaigns while maintaining their status as tax-exempt organizations.

Under the legislation, houses of worship would be allowed to “accidentally” endorse political candidates up to three times in an election cycle without losing their coveted tax-exempt status. While the bill purports to draw a distinction between intentional and unintentional violations of political activity, it is silent on what constitutes an "unintentional" violation, leaving religious leaders and institutions free to claim ignorance of the law as reasoning for an "unintentional" breach.

It is expected that the House Ways and Means Committee will be voting on the Safe Harbor for Churches provision this Monday! It is imperative that you call your Member of Congress and raise your strong objection to this travesty of justice. Your phone calls will be critical as many Members of Congress are unaware and will be caught off guard about the provision as it was so secretly inserted in the bill during a week of mourning. Please call Congress today.

The switchboard is 202-225-3121. Please stop the Son-of-Jones Bill!

Provision Name: “Safe Harbor for Churches" Section 692

Bill Name: H.R. 4520, “American Jobs Creation Act of 2004”

Message to your Member of Congress: Support the Lewis Amendment in the Ways and Means Committee (John Lewis of GA) that will strike this provision from the overall bill.

[LiberalCat]

40. If they interfere in politics, then take away tax emempt status.

If the churches do not pay taxes, then they have no right to be involved in politics.

[pacifictiger]

42. call your congressional representative TODAY

They are trying to sneak in a provision that would allow church to endorse political candidates WITHOUT losing tax exempt status! See my post above. Really important!!

[struggle4progress]

41. dupe and no longer LBN

posted several times yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=619924
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=618882