Al-Qaeda website shows killing - Robert Jacob

[dArKeR]

Dubai - Video footage posted on Sunday on a website attributed to al-Qaeda shows what it claims to be the murder of US national Robert Jacob in the Saudi capital by members of its terror network.

Chanting glorifying Jihad, or holy war, is heard in the background on the tape as two men are seen chasing a Western-dressed man who screams: "Wait, wait! No, no!"

Seconds later some 10 gun shots ring out as the man falls to the ground.

The tape, seen on the website, then shows the two men rush to the body. One appears to be slitting the victim's throat.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1542035,00.html

[rumguy]

1. fucking savages

they really are fucking animals..

and some on DU claim AQ doesn't exist?

[Ripley]

3. I believe they exist, but videos like this are suspect.

I didn't watch the Berg one, but the descriptions of it revealed it was extremely unusual...no blood, etc.

I won't watch this one, because it doesn't prove anything. A guy in western clothing is automatically an American?

Funny how these videos come out at Smirky's valleys, not his peaks in the polls.

[rumguy]

5. Berg was killed

and he was killed by AQ...

it's time to face reality folks...

[Ripley]

6. I never said he wasn't killed.

But how do you know who did it? Anyone in custody for that?

[DenverDem]

15. Reality is relative, especially in the Berg case.

The massive ammount of anomalies in the video "evidence" only call into question the veracity of the official story.

[Misinformed01]

25. Rumguy, unless you have some insider knowledge

that the rest of us are not privvy to, then it's time you face reality:
you don't know anymore than we do.

Stephanie

[Fixated]

55. That's ridiculous

Soldiers found his headless body.

[truth2power]

70. <sigh>

Why do people continue to conflate the murder of Nicholas Berg with evidence of who killed him.

Every time the issue is raised of who the perpetrators were, someone's response is that his body (or headless body) was found. I mean no disrespect here, but is it about reading comprehension?

I don't think anyone disputes that he's really dead; but there can be reasonable discussion about who murdered him. I haven't seen any evidence to convince me that it was AQ. It could just as easily be argued that it was US intelligence black ops. I simply don't know. :shrug:

[Kinkistyle]

119. Its a Non-sequitor.

Just because Nick Berg was killed doesn't necessarily mean the video is authentic. Especially a video as blurry and of as poor quality as the alleged video.

[WillParkinson]

106. No one is saying that he wasn't killed...

We just don't know with 100% certainty who did the killing.

[Tight_rope]

42. Keep in mind "THEY NEVER INVITED US! n/t

"Where does it go from here? The nightmare misadventure in Iraq is over, beyond the reach of any reasonable argument, though many more body bags will be filled. In Washington, chicken hawks will still be squawking about "digging in" and winning, but Vietnam proved conclusively that no modern war of occupation would ever be won. Every occupation is doomed. The only way you "win" a war of occupation is the old-fashioned way, the way Rome finally defeated the Carthaginians: kill all the fighters, enslave everyone else, raze the cities and sow the fields with salt.

Otherwise the occupied people will fight you to the last peasant, and why shouldn't they? If our presidential election fails to dislodge the crazy bastards who annexed Baghdad, many of us in this country would welcome regime change by any intervention, human or divine. But if, say, the Chinese came in to rescue us--Operation American Freedom--how long would any of us, left-wing or right, put up with an occupying army teaching us Chinese-style democracy? A guerrilla who opposes an invading army on his own soil is not a terrorist, he's a resistance fighter. In Iraq we're not fighting enemies but making enemies. As Richard Clarke and others have observed, every dollar, bullet and American life that we spend in Iraq is one that's not being spent in the war on terrorism. Every Iraqi, every Muslim we kill or torture or humiliate is a precious shot of adrenaline for Osama and al Qaeda.

The irreducible truth is that the invasion of Iraq was the worst blunder, the most staggering miscarriage of judgment, the most fateful, egregious, deceitful abuse of power in the history of American foreign policy."

B Y H A L C R O W T H E R

http://indyweek.com/durham/2004-05-12/news.html

[jdj]

56. This has nothing to do with Iraq, per se.

The article said he was murdered in the Saudi capital.

[bloom]

118. I've expected that people around the area

will be enraged/inflamed by what the US military/CIA/etc. is doing in Iraq.

I expect more of this. I'm surprised there has not been more.

I would not expect it to be safe for any Americans after what we've been doing.

[Judi Lynn]

109. Thanks for posting the article by Hal Crowther, Tight_rope. n/t

[0007]

53. How do you know?

The Berg beheading was about the phoninest thing I've ever seen.

[Bandit]

117. Reality is they are just doing what they see the US doing to them

If that american wasn't there he would still be alive. He was in their country un-invited and un-wanted. He is not there any longer.

[Red State Rebel]

120. At least they didn't make him stand naked with a dog barking....

I'm sorry, but I disagree with people who would try to justify this with what happened at Abu Graib. If the Geneva Convention is to be applied to us, it should be applied to them. If they aren't following it, why are we? Does it make us better to to take the high road? Or does it just give us a better view to see them torture and slaughter Americans?

[dxbiker]

130. you took this post

right out of my hands.

I was going to say that

I have no outrage toward torture gate, in fact i now tune it out.

After watching the mutilation of Americans, the dragging of them threw the streets in laughter, kind of takes away any outrage I may have or had.

[lightbulb]

138. In this age, the first thing to consider

when viewing images of something that triggers such an impassioned response is:

Who would most like me to feel this way? Who's hands does my reaction and/or change of heart most play into?

Not to say these types of videos aren't ever what they seem at face value, but the PR game that they're a part of is tangled and treacherous.

[Straight Shooter]

16. Seems like they want to put bush in another 4 years, doesn't it?

If these videos raise his popularity, leading to his election (God forbid), then clearly AQ wants bush elected. Right?

And the only reason that logic makes sense is because bush's base is composed of people who actually believe he is a competent "leader" in the war on terra. :shrug:

[Ripley]

19. Along with help from "reporters" on CNN..

who say AQ really wants Kerry to win the election! When clearly it seems just the opposite.

[WillParkinson]

107. Who said this and where?

If you have a link please provide. I'd like to give CNN a piece of my mind (but a small piece since I can't afford to give out too much lately thanks to George Butch...)

[Ripley]

111. I think the "reporter" was Kelly Arena (?) from CNN.

It happened a few weeks back. I didn't see it but read other witness accounts. They were discussing how the election would affect AQ and apparently that woman said that AQ wouldn't want Smirky re-elected because he was so good at fighting the war on Terrah. No, AQ would like it if John Kerry were elected. (paraphrase)

They can't be more blatant in their nonsensical, made-up, brain-washing, unsubstantiated, slanderous ways of supporting Dumb Shit and attacking Kerry.

I'll try to find a thread about it...

[WillParkinson]

123. That would be great, thank you!

I'd love to show them how 'fair' they are.

[DenverDem]

30. Cui bono?

The timing of this to produce a poll bump that bushlerco expected from the raygun hagiographic media overkill obviously brings the veracity of the video into question.

[rumguy]

I honestly don't know if this stuff will help Bush

They will try to make it help him, they will try with everything they got, but I don't know if it will in the end help him....

[Sushi-Lover]

78. Actually, there was blood.

People can argue until they are blue in the face over whether that video is real or not and who is behind the murder. What is and isn't in the video has sort of taken off on its own. Sometimes including false info. I wish I had not watched it, but I did and there is blood. What happens is that there is a dark colored tarp on the floor so when the blood shoots out it is difficult to see.

None of the videos prove anything and, yes, it could be fake or someone else. The whole story is strange and this tends to set off one's alarm bells. However, the most simple explanation is that these crimes were committed by AQ or a related Islamic militant group. Why? Because prior to this whole ordeal in Iraq AQ and related Islamic militant groups committed similar crimes for similar reasons and because they claim responsibility. If new evidence arises that points in a different direction, then I'll change my opinion. For now, my best educated guess is Zarqawi's group or AQ or whoever has claimed responsibility.

I would also like to say that saying this act is savage and disgusting does not conflict with believing that other acts by other people and groups are savage and disgusting. One does not preclude the other. The worst part is that by rushing to invade Iraq we have reduced resources to fight such acts in places other then Iraq and we have not done enough to decrease the number of people that willingly enable such acts with money or information or other resources.

[stickdog]

94. A much simpler explanation is that his gangster Iraqi business partner

had him killed.

The idea that he was killed by a reportedly dead, one legged, Jordanian terrorist mastermind who covered himself from head to toe even though he wanted to take full responsibility, decided to decapitate Berg even though he clearly didn't know how to it, spoke in a accent that wasn't Jordanian, and magically changed his head covering from dark to white while he was cutting off Berg's head is NOT one of the simplest explanations. Sorry. It's just not.

[Sushi-Lover]

122. Ok, this drives me crazy

I have no idea if Zarqawi was personally in the video, but I do think that an Islamic militant group (probably associated with Zarqawi) was responsible for the murder. His business partner could have been involved. I don't think that excludes Islamic militants.

There was no head covering switch! It was a switch of the camera angle and a different person. You know how to recognize a Jordanian accent? I sure don't. There was a wave of blood on a dark tarp following slitting of his throat. There was not a lot of blood when they sawed his head off, probably because they allowed him to bleed for a while beforehand.

[stickdog]

134. OK, this drives me crazy.

I do think that an Islamic militant group (probably associated with Zarqawi) was responsible for the murder.

Why?

What evidence do you have that leads you to even consider this bizarre and ridicuolusly inconsistent explanation other than the fact that whomever uploaded the video to a London-based and Mayalsian-served website attached the name "Zarqawi" to it?

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

127. POST THE LINK TO THE WEBSITE THEN!!!

"Video footage posted on Sunday on a website attributed to al-Qaeda shows..."

They better start coughing up the website names and posting the link. This is getting old. The "al-queda link website" excuse is starting to rank up there with the "a top administration official said" excuse.

[DulceDecorum]

141. OK, ALREADY

Here is the link with
"a top administration official"
telling you everything you need to know about al qaeda snuff films.
http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/shockwave/fool_me.htm

[leftofthedial]

4. "al Qaeda" exists

the question is:

What IS it?

[rumguy]

8. A big part of it is radical islam...

yeah it was funded by the CIA back in the 80s...and who knows maybe there are shadowy CIA connections to it still...yet the fact remains that radical fundamentalist Islam is the driving factor...

[DenverDem]

10. How can you be sure?

What credible evidence is available to citizens? The word of the bushlerco mob and their toady corporate media are well proven to be self serving prevarication.

[rumguy]

14. the fuckin' words of Osama himself!

The words that have come out of his own fuckin' mouth!

[DenverDem]

18. Right!

Cut back on the Kool Aid, dude.

Who funds Osama? Who benefits most from his actions? How can we trust any of the video or audio messages as stating anything but strategic hegelian propaganda?

This is not even close to some black and white situation, and being manipulated by the mass mind control effects of propaganda actions only plays into the hands of the power elite.

[rumguy]

22. I guess I'll just trust DenverDem then, huh?

I guess John Kerry is on it too, right? He's covering for Bushco/AQ...?

"Who funds Osama?" I believe most of his funding comes from a personal fortune and supporters in the ME - a lot of which are wealthy with oil money. Bottom line: DenverDem sure as hell doesn't know.

"Who benefits?" Well he benefits. It garners him attention in the ME which is where his legacy is being formed. And yes it benefited Bush but that does not mean he necessarily funds AQ...this is an inference you are making...no solid evidence. I sometimes lean LIHOP but I have no doubt that AQ is very real. Bottom line: You state a question and then jump to a conclusion.

"trust any of the video?" - Berg was killed. His own father buried him.
Do you thing Berg's father thinks that AQ didn't kill his son? I think he would speak out. Bottom line: the kid is fucking dead...

[DenverDem]

29. The bottom line is not that Berg is dead

but WHO KILLED HIM.

You have no more idea what is really going on than I do. I just don't trust proven cynical prevaricators to trade in anything but self serving propaganda. I attempt to scrutinize events in a more nuanced analytical way, and I resist the obvious mass mind control techniques the military/information complex employs.

And you would do a lot better trusting me than your wrong wing overlords.

[DoNotRefill]

60. Give up, rumguy...

some people will not believe Al Queda is real even as they're having their own throats slit by them simply because they believe the existence of Al Queda and executions by Al Queda benefits Bush.

[Nlighten1]

69. AQ may or may not be real.

But to equate every killing of a westener with AQ makes sense why exactly? I imagine the entire Arab world is pissed off at us right now and they are wanting revenge.

[DoNotRefill]

72. Let's see....

First, on the existence of Al Queda: The evidence was enough to convince Bill Clinton that it existed when he was President. I can understand not taking Bush's word on it, but to not take Clinton's word on it strikes me as foolhardy.

As to Al Queda being behind this latest attack, I thought they claimed responsibility for it. That's what the Middle Eastern press is saying. I can understand taking what the American press says with a grain of salt, given the current love-fest going on, but to think that the Middle Eastern press is doing Bush's work is ridiculous.

[rumguy]

77. That's very true

The ME press would be all over a story that the US staged, somehow, one of these excutions. Al-Jazz would love the opportunity to make the US government look bad and aweful. They are the Faux News of the ME afterall...

[truth2power]

86. But Rumguy,

you seemed to be arguing the issue of whether or not he was killed. I don't think there's any dispute about that. But how do you know it was AQ? I don't see any evidence for that, and in fact, some evidence to the contrary.

What about the reader in the video who said he was al Zawhari (sp?) but his face is covered. (By the way, I do admit that I didn't look at the video, and by the time I thought I could deal with it, it wasn't readily available. )

Lots of unanswered questions, IMO.

[rumguy]

87. Wrong - all the evidence is that it was AQ

See Sushi-Lover's post above...#78

[pauliedangerously]

97. OR some other fundie group...re-read it, and lay off the Kool-Aid

n/t

[stickdog]

98. NO evidence says it's al Qaeda.

NONE. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.

[stickdog]

96. Why would the English, web-based ME press be ALL OVER a story

for which they had no proof either way?

Over 80% of Arabs don't think Arabs pulled 9/11. So where are all the "Arab Faux News" articles about MIHOP?

[stickdog]

95. OK, so Bill Clinton thinks al Qaeda exists, so whatever anybody feels

like blaming on al Qaeda has to be true?

Who is being foolhardy here?

[stickdog]

93. Wrong. They believe al Qaeda is primarily a Western intel CONSTRUCT

because that's the explanation that most closely fits the publicly available evidence.

[pauliedangerously]

99. COME ON PEOPLE!!!!

It doesn't matter if a group called "al-Quaeda" exists of not. The main idea here is that it is a scapegoeat, like "Communist" or "Liberal" or "Terrorist."

The Wingnut administration uses these words to incite rage in the non-thinking idiots in this country to advance their agenda.

:think:

[rumguy]

113. There's a thread in GD if you want to defend this idea of yours..

There's a thread over in GD if you care to defend this notion...

[playahata1]

110. His father HAS spoken out.

He says that BUSHCO is reponsible for his son's death.

[rumguy]

112. He doesn't say AQ is not real though

He's talking about the mess in Iraq - that's how I read it...

[leftofthedial]

102. who is osama? do you speak arabic?

it must be noted that the bushco and CIA "translations" of Osama's pronouncements vary radically from those of other nations and organizations.

It must also be noted that the authenticity of many "al Qaeda" tapes and videos are highly suspect. The "fat Osama" video and the Berg beheading are two such.

It must also be noted that the US media does no reporting of its own. It reads whatever bushco tells it to read and shows whatever bushco tells it to show.

So, are you sure whether you are basing your opinion of al Qaeda's acts on what they've said or on what bushco has told you they said?

This, BTW, is the slippery slope of disinformation that Reagan unleashed on the American public. It is difficult to believe any domestic source about anything.

[rumguy]

115. So...Bush and Co. bungled Osama's translation

And the Arab media let's it slide?

Yeah, that makes sense.

[leftofthedial]

116. no, in fact the Arab media and European media HAVE

questioned CIA and State Department translations on several occasions.

The Berg video is an example. The State Department says the speaker claimed to be Zarqawi and al Qaeda. The Arabs say his dialect and accent are way wrong for Zarqawi and that he never said "al Qaeda" at all, but another phrase entirely.

Just because Faux News doesn't report it, doesn't mean it didn't happen there rummieguy.

[Sushi-Lover]

124. Do you have some links

for the information you are summarizing. I would be interested to read it from the source and I don't have time to hunt it down. Thanks :)

[Judi Lynn]

126. ·" Their Arabic is heavily accented (Russian, Jordanian, Egyptian). "

There is even a voice at the end that seems to ask in English, "How will it be done?"
(snip)

None of this proves a grand conspiracy, but it does raise questions. In the final segment of the tape, Berg is thrown to the ground, but doesn't move. During the decapitation, starting at the front of the throat, there is little sign of blood. The scream is wildly out of sync, sounds female, and is obviously dubbed.

Dr John Simpson, executive director for surgical affairs at the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, told Ritt Goldstein of the Asia Times, "I would have thought that all the people in the vicinity would have been covered in blood, in a matter of seconds ... if it was genuine".

Simpson agrees with other experts who find it highly probable that Berg had died before his decapitation.

But there is still the problem of Berg's slight body movements while sitting on the floor, before the beheading. According to a blogger (internet diarist), Nick Possum, "this footage was subsequently modified frame by frame to make Berg's body move very occasionally". Apparently, this can be achieved with "commonly available software". <http://www.brushtail.com.au/nick_berg_hypothesis.html>

Possum believes "the available evidence surrounding the case suggests that it was a 'black operation' by US psychological warfare specialists ... to provide the media with a moral relativity argument to counter the adverse publicity over torture at Abu Ghraib". The use of FBI footage in the opening sequence, if confirmed, suggests the involvement of high-level US Government operatives.
(snip)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641717320.html?oneclick=true

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another source says:

34] The real Zarqawi speaks with a Jordanian accent. According to a CNN mid-eastern expert who is a fluent translator, this 'Zarwaqi' did not speak with a Jordanian accent. She dismissed the possibility of it being him out of hand. The CIA seems to be ignoring this and is virtually certain that the voices match. Why is the CIA so blatantly lying?
(snip)

http://topplerummy.org/berg/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've read remarks in the last few weeks, too, concerning the odd accents, the actual ODDNESS of the character claiming to be the probably dead Zarqawi, etc.

All that's missing for anyone who would read more is TIME for him/her to do a search on "Nick Berg" + Zarqawi + not Jordanian
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Nick+Berg%22+%2B+Zarqawi+%2B+not+Jordanian+&btnG=Google+Search to get 10,100 chances of reading more interesting info.

Possibly a lot of us could be far more objective if we could bite the bullet and look at the video, too, and I can't. I tend to trust the people who have gone ahead and studied it and come back with questions about it. The video was released at exactly the time it would have the most intense impact to reinforce the assumption among our weakest minded that torture, administered by the U.S. is fine, as brown-skinned people of other cultures, and Gawds, are our inferiors by nature.

It could be certain people don't want to take the time to devise complex arguments to defend themselves, they go right for the pure fear infusion of shocking visual images, knowing they are harder to shake. That bypasses speech and thought altogether. Kinda like a short cut, don't ya know?

Too bad our weaker, more reactive citizens don't understand they are being "played." Tsk. Tsk.

[Sushi-Lover]

131. Thank you, but

I do not want to sort through 10,000 links. I do not want to read speculation on a bunch of blogs as to the authenticity of the video. I would like to read some articles from Arab media sources regarding the voices on the tape. It is not 100% certain that an Islamic militant group did this. I can never be 100% certain of anything I don't witness for myself or have other personal experience with. However, when enough sources agree on something and I think those sources are credible, then I except that explanation given the information currently available to me.

What I am amazed by is not that people are saying it is suspicious because of timing or that they question the authenticity of the video, but that they seem to be 100% certain this was CIA or black ops or whatever. I consider speculation and questioning to be a good thing. However, I don't think it is a good thing to believe things just because someone somewhere posted them on a blog.

[rumguy]

128. you have no links, no actual facts

I'm sure you could scrounge up some highly questionable sources...don't even try I won't by that garbage...

Like that anti-semitic website several were trotting around here quoting some 'doctor' in Mexico who said there wasn't enough blood in the Berg video and that there was a military cap in the video when their planinly wasn't

[Judi Lynn]

132. Found something which reminded me of your post in an interview

(snip)
.....Now, of course, the original claim was that Zarqawi is the actual man who performed this execution. Our experts listened to the accent, as you said, and they determined the accent is not Jordanian...

O'BRIEN: He is a Jordanian who is working supposedly, allegedly, at the behest of al Qaeda in Iraq. So go ahead.

NASR: Right, he is very close to bin Laden, and works, you're right, as an agent of al Qaeda in Iraq. Now, the accent is not Jordanian so that takes the Jordanian element out of the story immediately.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, now one final thought here. You did a very careful translation of your own, of the statement. And in it, you see no reference to al Qaeda. And yet the official U.S. government translation does. Explain how that happened.

NASR: Oh, I find it very interesting, because out of the blue, there is a mention of al Qaeda on the U.S. government translation. It says: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" Any speaker of the Arabic language is going to notice a difference between the word al Qaeda, which means "the base," and al qaed, which means "the one sitting, doing nothing."

My translation says: "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?" Basically they're telling people, you have no excuse for not doing anything, for not acting and defending Islam and so forth. Whereas the U.S. government translation has this factual error, I'm sure it's an honest mistake, but basically it sort of adds al Qaeda to the statement, which is not on the statement.
(snip/...)

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0405/12/lol.02.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting.

[Sushi-Lover]

133. Thanks

That is something worth reading :)

[WillParkinson]

108. Words...

Yes, and the words "Weapons of Mass Destruction" have come out of GWB's mouth on a multitude of instances.

I'm not saying they do or don't exist, I'm not saying that OBL isn't out for blood. I'm saying that I want to have evidence one way or another.

[maryallen]

39. Read House of Saud, House of Bush ...

The Saudis have been playing both ends against the middle: Cozying up to Americans and funding bin Laden/AQ at the same time.

Unger has some interesting stories about the Saudi Ambassador, Prince Bandar, the one who got the word about the Iraqi war BEFORE Colin Powell, the US Sec. of State. Bandar also had his finger in the pie regarding getting Saudis out of the country on Sept 12, 2001. Back during Bush I's reign, Bandar purportedly worked in conjunction with the CIA to set up the assasination of some Iranian diplomat. In addition, his lovely wife funded some shady people in CA with ties to the hijackers.

Remember too, that John O'Neill, former FBI and head of security at the WTC, said that the key to 911 was Saudi Arabia.

[DavidFL]

82. How was Unger's book?

I have only read excerpts from it posted on Salon's website, but was disappointed to see he used Steve Emerson as an "expert", when Emerson had been exposed long before this book was published as a mouthpiece for neocon Daniel Pipes and his "Christian Zionism" propaganda.

As for all these people and players, like the Bushs, the Saud family, the neocons, etc., I think they've all been in bed together for some time and this is just an Iran-Contra-like network redux.

[Joanne98]

66. All fundamentalism is evil

The problem is we can't fight fundies with fundies. It's turning into a Holy War. This is exactly what Osama wanted. It's never getting better now. They should just tell Americans to leave Saudi Arabia. The only way to win this is to invent our way out of oil. Lucky for us we're halfway there.

[rumguy]

67. I totally agree

I've always seen AQ and the Bushies as being two sides of the same coin. They are both represent the right wing violence meme of their cultures.

That being said...I despise AQ more than I do Bush. The right wing in the West has been tempered over the years...they can't be as outright ugly as right wingers in other cultures. AQ is a right-wing fundamentalist violence meme of an extreme variety.

I have no doubt that there are members of AQ, or people associated with AQ, who are right now, as we type, working on a plan to sneak a suitcase nuke into our country. That is the scariest thought of all.

[NeoConsSuck]

79. And you have the body counts on both sides..

to back up your argument?

And personally, I think if you went to a global vote, the right wing neocons would lose an election to AQ. That is how much bush and his pack of murderers are detested throughout the world. And if *I* had to choose between living with one or the other...

-- your words ----
That being said...I despise AQ more than I do Bush. The right wing in the West has been tempered over the years...they can't be as outright ugly as right wingers in other cultures. AQ is a right-wing fundamentalist violence meme of an extreme variety.
------

edited for spelling.

[rumguy]

83. That's why I'm glad the neocons are not the United States

They are in power now. But they only got it through theft and the help of a whore media.

As for your point about choosing one or the other...I'm not sure what you mean...you quote my words so I assume that is your opinion?

[shance]

144. What about our own Radical Fundamentalism Rumguy?

Why do many of you dismiss the racism and arrogance coming from us here in this country?

[mhr]

7. After Our Torture Practices At AG, ALL Bets Are Off, Bush Is To Blame!

eom

[DenverDem]

9. al CIAda exists only to well.

Who is it's manpower, who funds it, who produces its videos and websites? Those are the pertinent questions that are not really answered right now.

Getting emotional and jingoistic in a way the video is calculated to produce does nothing to get at the truth of the situation.

[rumguy]

11. the video is calculated to produce fear mainly

And I'm not jingoistic, and it's only natural to get angry when you read about someone getting gunned down in cold blood as he's begging for his life...

I don't check my humanity at the door when I log on to DU...

[DenverDem]

20. You are jingoistic in your rush to judgement as to who the perps are.

How do we know who actually is doing this?

Cui bono? Answer that and you will have a better idea.

[rumguy]

26. Someone killed him!

Whoever did it are savages. I'm leaning towards taking AQs word on this one. It was in SA. We know AQ actively targets Americans. Hmm...there's probably a good chance AQ did it.

You just don't want to accept reality.

[DenverDem]

33. All I want is REALITY.

You're the one accepting the first fantasical meme.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

37. I don't like to be called a jingo

Got that?

Now I'm done with this.

[stickdog]

100. Somebody was killed tonight in LA. We know OJ is on the loose.

Hmm...there's probably a good chance OJ did it.

You just don't want to accept reality.

[rumguy]

27. I'm done arguing with you.

It's a waste of time...

[DenverDem]

32. Yes, your preconcieved notions are unshakeable.

Baaaaaa.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

65. Do you remember the threads showing video...

of US soldiers gunning down unarmed and wounded Iraqis? Where was your anger then? Were those US soldiers "savages" and "animals"? Or do you only express your anger at the actions of Arabs?

Hell, where was your anger when the torture pics came out? Care to show me the post where you called those American men and women "savages" and "animals"?

I sure do smell a hint of racism...

[rumguy]

71. I was fucking pissed then too!

My god man...

smell a hit of racism? give me a fuckin' break!

[Ripley]

12. Exactly. And when there's another LBN headline...

"Nazi Commander was CIA Agent," well it leads one to be skeptical. I mean al Queda is bad, but are they worse than Nazi's? If the CIA hired Nazi's, why would they hesitate to hire today's killers?

[HereSince1628]

41. Isn't CIA a post-ww2 agency?

I may be very wrong, but I thought the CIA was set up to deal with the cold war.

on edit: my point is that I believe the CIA hired ex-nazis but I don't think that the nazi's and the CIA had a concurrent run.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. The OSS began negotiations in 1944 with the intelligence arm of the...

...German Army under General Reinhard Gehlen. Gehlen had somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 operatives in the USSR and other locations under Soviet rule. At the end of the war, Gehlen immediately turned himself in to the nearest American authority, passed the word that he wanted to strike a deal, and the rest is history. The Gehlen Org originally worked under U. S. Army command, but after the CIA was formed, the Gehlen Org reported to that organization.

Most of Gehlen's command structure had been Nazi Party members during WWII...only the foreign agents working undercover had not been required to swear that oath. But, the Gehlen Org was vehemently anti-Communist and had a score to settle with the Soviets. Is it any wonder that the information we got from behind the Iron Curtain was filtered and manipulated to put the Soviets in the worst possible light?

[HereSince1628]

50. Ok. But, splitting hairs (maybe) isn't CIA a Cold War agency?

Just trying to keep the time line intact.

[Ripley]

58. Timeline?

Is there really a difference between a Nazi Commander working under Hitler in 1939 and that same Nazi Commander working for the CIA in 1944 (or whenever they hired him)? Did the Nazi turn into a Saint in those few short years?

[DoNotRefill]

61. Oh, Jesus Fucking Christ...

"Is it any wonder that the information we got from behind the Iron Curtain was filtered and manipulated to put the Soviets in the worst possible light?"

How could the REALITY of the Soviet Union be BETTER than the worst reports?

Come on, Comrade...Even the Communists have denounced Stalin...

[Judi Lynn]

62. Interesting info. I'd like to read more about this.

I've seen right-wing posters trying to blur the lines between Nazis and the Russian communists of that time. Can't understand why they do it, either.

Getting this name will facilitate some research. Thanks.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. You'd be more accurate if you called Al Qaeda an OSP creature....

...the CIA stopped backing Osama and Al Qaeda quite some time ago.

The only group benefitting from any alleged Al Qaeda activities are the NeoCons and their intell group known as the OSP.

[Leprechan29]

17. It is sick and animalistic

And unfortuantely there are too many similar groups who would do the same to their fellow humans

Edit: And no one should check their humanity at the door - ever

[leesa]

28. Not really. loose-knit group fewer than 2000 to begin with...but who are

they? WHO is Al Qaeda?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. And we haven't shown the same tendencies? in videos that show the...

How about the videos showing Iraqi wounded being shot, and pics that show hundreds of Iraqi civilians after they've been blown to bits, and even more pics showing Iraqi men after dogs have been set on them? I have a while laundry list of these things, but I don't have that much time today. Quite a few sources tell us that we haven't see the worst of the torture pics and videos.

Let's stop with the holier-than-thou stuff, because of the simple fact that we aren't. We've proven that we no longer have a moral high road on which we can walk. We started this stuff thanks to our NeoCon masters, and now we're paying for it.

Want to blame someone? Blame the prople that took over our country in December 2000.

[rumguy]

40. You know it is POSSIBLE to hate BOTH Bush and AQ

I see them as opposite sides of the SAME COIN. They are both representative of the right wing violence memes of their respective cultures...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. I was responding to your original post which did NOT contain what you....

...have just now included. I'm not a mindreader, just a poster on DU.

[Karenina]

48. No more "savage"

than "approved" all-American TORTURE. ;-)

[frylock]

51. i agree. it's far more civil to shoot people in the back from a gunship.

[JoFerret]

54. At least we are not paying the salaries

of these particular vile versions (assuming that is that it did happen.)

[Devils Advocate NZ]

64. At least they gave him a chance...

Unlike the video I saw of US soldiers, hiding behind a wall some distance away, shooting at an obviously seriously wounded Iraqi soldier who was doing nothing but lying on the ground writhing in agony.

Then they CHEERED when they finally killed him.

Yeah, you're right - they're fucking savages, too bad they're on both sides.

[Nlighten1]

68. That is the response they want you to have.

Fucking savages.

The same thing has been said about every other enemy the US has ever had.

There is only one thing you need to remember. There are savages on both sides of this war.

[rumguy]

73. Agree - a killer is a killer is a killer - there are savages on both sides

And I'm not ashamed to get pissed off about it.

So shoot me...

I guarantee there are people out there right now, people associated with AQ, who are working on a plan to get a suitcase nuke into this country.

They must be stopped. John Kerry has a plan to stop them. The Bush admin. is incompetent and corrupt. That's why I'm voting for JK in 2004.

[Nlighten1]

74. Kerry has a plan to stop AQ?

I wasn't aware the social and economic justice were on his agenda. It sounded to me that the "stay the course" rhetoric means more bullets and bombs.

You will not defeat AQ with bullets and bombs. Mark my words, down that path lies oblivion.

Social and economic justice are the ONLY ways to defeat AQ. Give the people a reason NOT to fight by meeting their needs and providing a safe environment for them to live their lives.

[rumguy]

75. That's long term - for the short term we have to keep that suitcase nuke

out of our country...

There are things we can do:

1. We need more security at our ports. I live in Seattle. A mind-boggling amount of materials streams through here every week.

2. We need stronger alliances with other countries, we need their help with intel. and information. A global alliance is necessary.

3. Our law enforcement should be focused on this threat. Drug busts? Asscrack's War on Porn? Suitcase nukes trump all of this...

I agree there are long term things we have to do. But if, in the short term, that nuclear device goes off in a major American city, well on that day, our Democracy may very well die. I don't want to see that happen.

So many DUers play down the threat AQ poses. Some say it doesn't exist, some say it's all Bush fear-mongering. I think that is misguided. AQ does exist, and they are planning us harm.

[Sushi-Lover]

81. I don't know about suitcase bombs,

but I have no doubt that these groups would repeat 9/11 or something similar if given the opportunity. People should take the time to read about Islamic militants like al-Zarqawi. There are many many credible sources for information about these groups. I agree with your assessment of what we should do. I think it is necessary to up port security and other related things like airplane design. I would also like to see more funds for intel and cooperation between our intel people, our military, our law enforcement and those of other governments in targeted police-actions against these groups. I would also like to see a larger scale 'hearts and minds' effort to decrease the number of people that are willing to provide resources to these groups. They are a real threat and we are not directly addressing that threat with what is being done in Iraq.

[rumguy]

85. I totally agree the "hearts and minds" thing is essential

This is a war of symbolism as much as anything else. Unfortunetaly, the Bushies are losing that war, big time. It boggles my mind the extent to which they are losing it. Their incompetence endangers us all.

And suitcase nukes is just shorthand for any small portable nuclear device...

[Nlighten1]

84. AQ probably does exist...

And you are right on all those points. I just don't think John Kerry is going to do all of those points. I hope I am wrong.

We need a Democrat who can call the war on terror what it really is...a farce.

[stickdog]

101. How is Kerry going to stop his suitcase case bogeyman?

What's his plan?

Do tell.

1. We need more security at our ports. I live in Seattle. A mind-boggling amount of materials streams through here every week.

2. We need stronger alliances with other countries, we need their help with intel. and information. A global alliance is necessary.

3. Our law enforcement should be focused on this threat. Drug busts? Asscrack's War on Porn? Suitcase nukes trump all of this...

This isn't a plan. It's plain common sense. If al Qaeda were a threat AND our leaders cared, why didn't we do these things right after 9/11?

Did it take a genius like Kerry to figure out that we should secure our points, work with other countries and make terrorism a priority in the wake of 9/11? And why couldn't he convince his fellow Congressmen to demand these simple and obvious steps WITHOUT becoming President?

[KoKo]

91. Which savages? n/t

[thebigidea]

2. so Al-Qaeda is "on the run" yet manages to run websites?

[Lorien]

13. I keep thinking about this too

If we were going after them with the same zeal that we've put into going after Iraq's oil, I'm sure that none of this would have happened.

[dArKeR]

49. 2nd. Any moral/competent journalist would have to question this. It

would be the easiest thing in the world to trace then put under physical surveillence. Or are we using all our resources to track cigar smugglers from Cuba?

Bush administration showing willingness to enforce law on visiting Cuba
http://www.ibike.org/cuba/ofac/010805-nyt.htm

San Diego woman to pay fine for Cuba trip
http://havanajournal.com/travel_comments/P760_0_6_0/

Shaking Down American Travelers
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0901-02.htm

U.S. threatens to fine man who posted Cuba news
Seattleite didn't have federal permission to promote meeting of 'sister cities' group

By SAM SKOLNIK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Retired Seattle plumber and World War II veteran Tom Warner says he's been a proponent of the Cuban revolution and the country's president, Fidel Castro, since "he came down from the mountains."

Treasury Department officials, saying that Warner lacked a "specific license" to promote the conference, are threatening to fine him up to $55,000 if he doesn't tell them everything he knows about the conference and the organizations involved.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/101289_cuba24.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

63. Thanks for the links. The last one from Seattle is mind-boggling

It would definitely lead one to believe things are quite a bit more extreme than we've been told.

Can't BEGIN to grasp how they really justify harrassing this man. They need some limits. NOW.

[LittleApple81]

21. If you look at the page in the link, they say he was jewish:

The video described the victim as "American Jew Robert Jacob, who worked for the spy group Vinnell".

Jacob, 44, who worked for the US Vinnell Corp., which helps train the Saudi National Guard, was shot dead at his home in Riyadh last Tuesday. He was reportedly shot nine times in the head.

________________________
Apparently these trainers have been pointed out to whoever is murdering them. They know who is Jewish, and if they are contractors they know that too...wonder WHO IS TELLING THEM?????

[LittleApple81]

31. Asking again: who is keeping tabs of Jewish contractors? They

are going after them first.
I am surprised that Jewish contractors want to go to Saudi Arabia now.

[stickdog]

104. Vinnell = US intel

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Vinnell_Corporation

At various times both the American press and lawmakers have criticized Vinnell's operations in Saudi Arabia as an effort to protect the country's autocratic rulers from the democratic aspirations of their own people. The National Guard has a chain of command independent of the Saudi Defense ministry. The 75,000 strong force can operate as a mobile complement to the tank-heavy divisions of the Saudi army in wartime, but its primary mission is protecting the ruling Saudi royal family from peacetime internal political unrest. To suit this purpose the Guard still recruits primarily from the tribal desert interior of Saudi Arabia. In this sense the Guard is a direct descendant of the Bedouin warriors who helped the Saud clan take control of their country early in the twentieth century.

Over the past 22 years Vinnell employees have become an integral part of the Guard. One U.S. military officer who monitors Vinnell's Guard activities said in a recent interview that "It's a big mission. We have responsibilities and tasks in every functional area there is to run an organization . . . everything from management training to logistics to medical." But he made it clear that Americans do not "run" the Guard. Despite such statements, some suspect that Vinnell agents have at times gone beyond mere training and consulting. In 1979, for example, Saudi rebels took over the Grand Mosque at Mecca and demanded that the royal family relinquish power. As the Saudi National Guard prepared to storm the mosque, U.S. military personnel and Vinnell employees helped plan the attack. Finally, when the initial attack failed, there were unconfirmed reports that Vinnell "trainers" were brought in to provide "tactical support" for the final successful assault.

Undoubtedly, there are great advantages to licensing a company like Vinnell to perform tasks that would otherwise be undertaken by the U.S. military. First and foremost, the Vinnell operation costs the American government nothing and facilitates a key strategic goal of stabilizing an important ally in an unstable region. It also performs the task with no risk to American service men and women -- a key issue with political constituencies in an increasingly isolationist America. Finally, private corporate "consultants" may be able to keep a lower profile than American military personnel within Saudi Arabia where at least a portion of the population resents a foreign military presence.

[F.Gordon]

23. Will there be a compilation? "Al-Qaeda Gone Wild!!!"

And would someone please tell me how the fuck the Al-Qaeda can have a website?

[the Kelly Gang]

24. every video suposedly coming from Al Qaeda is suspect..like

the one were Bin Laden is supposed to be discussing 9/11..as if !

however these videos produce the intended effect.

I viewed the entire Berg video and it's as dodgy as they come. He was definely dead when his head was cut off. Not a speck of blood and no struggle. I mean would you just lie there and let someone cut off your friggin head ??

Also he screamed as his throat was supposedly being cut..a miracle !

But theres' no doubt he is dead..who killed him ? I certainly dont know.

And if anyone thinks that both Al Qaeda, Iraqi Muslims or US/Allied soldiers are not incapable of brutality is just not being realistic.

And if they don't think there own people are capable of murdering someone for propaganda sake is being unrealistic.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Have you read about General Edward Lansdale?

He was the originator of modern "psyops" and worked in Viet Nam, the Philippines, even created "Operation Mongoose" to use against Cuba.

This is one of his triumphs which has been mentioned extensively in quite a few different sources:

"Back in the 1950s, during the rebellion in the Philippines, U.S. Air Force General Edward Lansdale, then head of CIA PsyOps in the islands, used the legend of Philippine vampires to chase the Huk rebels from their various areas of operation. The asuag, or Philippine vampire, struck terror in the hearts of the superstitious population, a fact exploited by the CIA. When a Huk patrol would pass by, the last member of the patrol was silently captured, and then killed. Two holes were punctured in the Huk's neck, and he was hung upside down to drain the blood from his body. The corpse would then be left where it would be found by his comrades - a victim of the vampire." W. Adam Mandelbaum, from: The Psychic Battlefield
(snip)

http://www.pldt.com/archives/lansdale.htm


Lansdale

I can't see one redeeming aspect of this behavior. It's treated as if it's ordinary, pedestrian action for our military. I can't see it's different from chasing people around and shooting them.

Glad to read your post, the Kelly Gang, and get your view of the film. I was too chicken to look, personally, and glad you shared your "take." A great long-time DU'er here also has expressed a similar perception, himself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. Some of Lansdale's contemporaries in the intell community were...

...E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis, Bernard Barker, Richard Helms, and, oh yeah, some guy by the name of George H. W. Bush.

[Judi Lynn]

46. Oh, Jeez. Sombitch. Didn't know this. Thanks. n/t

[Matilda]

136. Lansdale was a real charmer - not.

Whenever there was dirty work afoot in the Asia/Pacific region, he
seemed to be there. I remembered hearing about him in connection
with Vietnam, and found this link:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDlansdale.htm

Nothing in politics is black and white - just varying shades of
dirty grey.

[number6]

52. were so successful in the war on terror that

al-Qaeda has a website ....

[alcuno]

57. Americans are hypocrites with their false outrage.

Murder, rape, and child molestation take place every day in this country and we barely blink an eye. If it happens here, it's a crime and if it happens somewhere else it's terrorism.

I'm just not understanding the difference between killing someone because they are an American and killing someone because they are a woman. There are bad people in the world and, quite frankly, we ought to be doing something about the ones who we grew.

[DS1]

59. Just watched the video

It really doesn't show much of anything.

[Disturbed]

80. Al Q.

This group seems to be morphing into any terrorist group anywhere.

Seems that Al Q is a number of groups called cells that don't report to any central command.

Whether the Berg or this latest execution was actually an Al Q. group has not been proven. Perhaps it cannot be proven. The FBI or the CIA cannot track down this supposed Al Q Web site?

There is no way that a terrorist attack can be avoided within the USA.
The mystery to me is why none have taken place since the 911 Attack?

[JayS]

103. "The mystery to me"

It is a mystery to me also, especially considering how easy it would be to conduct an attack. I've read of arrests that were most likely connected to a planned attack...but still.

[SandyUSA]

76. Jacobs was apparently not Jewish and liked Saudis very much

Robert Jacobs Loved Going to Camel Races in Riyadh
Barbara Ferguson, Arab News



A file photo of the late Robert C. Jacobs.

WASHINGTON, 10 June 2004 — Robert C. Jacobs, the American citizen who was shot and killed on Tuesday at his home in Riyadh, refused to live on his company’s heavily-fortified compound, preferring to live among Saudis in a middle class neighborhood.

“My son refused to live in the secure compound provided by Vinnell, because he enjoyed living among the Saudis,” his mother, Oma Lee Jacobs, told Arab News in a telephone interview from her home in Illinois. “He liked them, their cuisine, and enjoyed living there. He liked going to camel races and browsing in the markets there.”

Jacobs, 63, was an employee of Vinnell Corp., a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman Corp. He lived in Saudi Arabia for seven years, where he trained the National Guard in graphic design. “He was training people, but not in warfare,” Mrs. Jacobs explained to her local newspaper.

THE REST of the article can be read at Arab News. One Arabic speaking person on another board was wondering why after seven years in Saudi Arabia, this man did not call out to his attackers in Arabic rather than English: "Wait, wait! No, no!" It is impossible to tell from the video who the victim is or who the attackers are. This will lend itself to more doubts about who is doing some of these killings.

&category=Kingdom

[rumguy]

88. He was training people in graphic design

Good one AQ, yeah you're real bad-ass gunning down a defenseless man in cold blood...

[Sushi-Lover]

89. It must be that nice friendly people

forget about their own safety. Berg sounds like a similar kind of outgoing type. This poor guy was not nearly paranoid enough.

[Disturbed]

92. Whoever did this is wrong.

If it was an Al Q. type of group or a group posing as one, it is just plain wrong and it is murder.

If it was an Al Q. type of group I am guessing their msg. is for all non Saudis, especially Americans, to get out of Saudi Arabia and to let the Saudi Regime know that they will keep doing these murders to make the Regime fall.

If it's a group posing as Al Q. it is to foment more hatered from Anmericans toward the "terrorists" and gain more support for BushCo.

Will we ever know? I doubt it.

[stickdog]

105. Yes. nice friendly people make good patsies.

This doesn't tell us who killed them, though.

[daleo]

90. For better or worse, this will raise questions

"Jacobs, 63, was an employee of Vinnell Corp., a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman Corp. He lived in Saudi Arabia for seven years, where he trained the National Guard in graphic design. “He was training people, but not in warfare,” Mrs. Jacobs explained to her local newspaper."
...
"The Jacobs family has lived all over the world. Mrs. Jacobs said that although she had never been to Saudi Arabia, she has traveled to 108 countries, including several in the Middle East."
...
"Robert and his sister Janice, an official with the US State Department in Washington, now working with Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge on visa issues, were home-schooled in Ethiopia and attended French schools while living in France. Mrs. Jacobs, who lost her husband 10 years ago, said their youngest daughter, Linda, was born in Thailand."

How objective is arabnews.com? It seems to be quite closely associated with the Saudi government, given some of the other articles on the page (for example, a puff piece called "20 Years of King Faud". They say he was only helping with graphic design, but who knows? It sounds like the kind of job that would make a good cover story. Vinnell Corp. trains the Saudi National Guard, so clearly a lot of people who are against western involvement in the middle east would target people who worked for this corporation, regardless of what their supposed job duties were.

The family history (traveled to 108 different countries, sister working with Homeland Security) is bound to create suspicions that he could be CIA, which wouldn't be very popular in the middle east right now.

[bloom]

121. It's weird seeing how many

graphic design jobs there are posted by defense contractors.


It didn't use to be so.

[Q]

114. Responsible parties: the killers and Bush* insane foreign policy...

- The point being: no one is safe in the middle east any longer...especially after Bush's* 'kill em all and let God sort em out' policy was put into action.

[Trajan]

125. More violent theocratic pornography ...

An excerpt from Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire":

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume2/chap58.htm#Seige

-snip-

Two movable turrets were constructed at the expense, and in the stations, of the duke of Lorraine and the count of Tholouse, and rolled forwards with devout labour, not to the most accessible, but to the most neglected, parts of the fortification. Raymond's Tower was reduced to ashes by the fire of the besieged, but his colleague was more vigilant and successful; the enemies were driven by his archers from the rampart; the draw-bridge was let down; and on a Friday, at three in the afternoon, the day and hour of the passion, Godfrey of Bouillon stood victorious on the walls of Jerusalem. His example was followed on every side by the emulation of valour; and about four hundred and sixty years after the conquest of Omar, the holy city was rescued from the Mahometan yoke. In the pillage of public and private wealth, the adventurers had agreed to respect the exclusive property of the first occupant; and the spoils of the great mosque, seventy lamps and massy vases of gold and silver, rewarded the diligence, and displayed the generosity, of Tancred. A bloody sacrifice was offered by his mistaken votaries to the God of the Christians: resistance might provoke but neither age nor sex could mollify, their implacable rage: they indulged themselves three days in a promiscuous massacre; (110) and the infection of the dead bodies produced an epidemical disease. After seventy thousand Moslems had been put to the sword, and the harmless Jews had been burnt in their synagogue, they could still reserve a multitude of captives, whom interest or lassitude persuaded them to spare. Of these savage heroes of the cross, Tancred alone betrayed some sentiments of compassion; yet we may praise the more selfish lenity of Raymond, who granted a capitulation and safe-conduct to the garrison of the citadel. (111) The holy sepulchre was now free; and the bloody victors prepared to accomplish their vow. Bareheaded and barefoot, with contrite hearts, and in an humble posture, they ascended the hill of Calvary, amidst the loud anthems of the clergy; kissed the stone which had covered the Saviour of the world; and bedewed with tears of joy and penitence the monument of their redemption. This union of the fiercest and most tender passions has been variously considered by two philosophers; by the one, (112) as easy and natural; by the other, (113) as absurd and incredible. Perhaps it is too rigorously applied to the same persons and the same hour; the example of the virtuous Godfrey awakened the piety of his companions; while they cleansed their bodies, they purified their minds; nor shall I believe that the most ardent in slaughter and rapine were the foremost in the procession to the holy sepulchre.

-snip-

And the circle keep's-a-turnin ...

It is said that the streets of Jerusalem ran ankle deep in blood on the days of July 15, 16, and 17 of 1099 ....

Coming on 1004 years ago now ....

And the circle keep's-a-turnin ...

[NNN0LHI]

129. Gee. Maybe if Americans quit plundering the Saudis wealth this will end?

Oil is a dirty business. Reminds me of organized crime.

Don

[Matilda]

137. Oil is a dirty business. Politics is a dirty business.

When we read that on 9/11, Bush Snr. was meeting with a brother of
Osama bin Laden, doesn't that tell us all we really need to know?
Politicians play both sides against the middle, and most of them
would sell their own grandmothers to make a buck.

On all sides of politics, in every country, they use people like
you and me, and freepers as well, and the Nick Bergs of this world
to make a point that suits them today. But you never know who
they're shaking hands with behind your back.

I don't trust Bush and his allies, I don't trust the Saudis or the
Iraqis, or Osama, but I think you hit on one fundamental point -
we in the West enjoy a good lifestyle thanks to the exploitation of
millions of Arabs, and they've had enough. The rulers of most of
these ME countries are as much to blame, because they do get paid
for the oil, but don't pass it on (except, ironicaly, Saddam Hussein,
who did give his people a high standard of education and health
care). The ordinary people don't have either political or military
power, so they're limited to guerilla warfare. They're mostly not
highly educated or sophisticated, so their tactics are not generally
subtle - as we saw in Falluja. It's sickening to most westerners,
but how many people bother to search online for the evidence of
dead Iraqis - there are heaps of photos available online, and they're
pretty sickening too, but they're never published in our newspapers.

And meanwhile, back at the ranch, has the Bush family cut their
business ties with the bin Ladens? I think not.

[oblivious]

135. Looks like the al-qaeda website is in Texas. That's pretty weird.

Link on 'Whatreallyhappened' today.

'Islamic website' showing video of kidnapped Americans is registered to a Dallas, Texas address

New Terror Website www.ansarnet.ws Registered to a Dallas Address

http://www.jackblood.com/index/id1.html

[daleo]

139. What else is new?

The server is probably in Crawford.

[eridani]

140. No documentation of the claim shown

They just make the assertion. Or am I missing something?

[oblivious]

142. Try this one.

http://jackblood.net/stories/ansarnetaddress.htm

<snip> One of the statements said: "Our fighters of the Fallujah Brigade in the Arabian peninsula have kidnapped an American, a Christian, Paul M. Johnson Jr. born in 1955 and working as an aeronautics engineer," said the statement signed "Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula" and published on the Islamist website (www.ansarnet.ws/vb/showthread.php?t=9351).

In an effort to serve our national security, JackBlood.com has traced the address of the alleged Islamic website, since the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI are too busy tracking down 12-year-old music downloaders, strip-searching 80-year-old grandmothers at airports, gathering private information dossiers on law-abiding citizens, and giving away amnesty visas to illegal aliens.

JackBlood.com conducted a domain name search for the website www.ansarnet.ws and the following results pointed out to an address in Dallas, Texas.

Address lookup
canonical name
ansarnet.ws.

aliases

addresses
67.19.32.132

Network Whois record
Queried whois.arin.net with "67.19.32.132"...

OrgName: ThePlanet.com Internet Services, Inc.
OrgID: TPCM
Address: 1333 North Stemmons Freeway
Address: Suite 110
City: Dallas
StateProv: TX
PostalCode: 75207
Country: US
<end snip>

[eridani]

143. Thanks

As a general note--it is really helpful to have the explicit URL for documentation. Remember that we are going to be using this stuff in arguments where people will call us on facts. We have to be able to produce.