Sinn Fein wins European Parliament seat

[CShine]

Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Irish Republican Army, has won its first-ever seat in the European parliament with the election of Mary Lou MacDonald in Ireland, Sky News reported today. Sinn Fein was the big gainer in Ireland's elections to the European Parliament, nearly doubling its vote to 11.9 per cent, according to partial results, compared to 6.3 per cent in 1999.

In Northern Ireland, where results had yet to be announced, Sinn Fein's Bairbre de Brun was a top contender for an MEP seat. Clinching the MEP posts is seen by many Irish republicans as a means to bring Sinn Fein international clout, after its long and often troubled ties to the Irish Republican Army, Northern Ireland's largest Roman Catholic paramilitary group.

Sinn Fein is the most popular Catholic party in Northern Ireland, winning the lion's share of the Catholic vote in the province's legislative election in November 2003. MacDonald earlier confirmed her party's eurosceptic leanings.

"Sinn Fein doesn't support a direction for the EU that would lead to just further and further integration ... That's not our vision for Europe."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/14/1087065072505.html?oneclick=true

[JI7]

1. good to see this

[LibLabUK]

2. In other news....

Al-Qaeda to run MEP candidates in the next round of european elections.

[Bridget Burke]

3. Times change.

Deal with it.

[LibLabUK]

4. Tell that to...

the innocent who died in the atrocities that Sinn Fein STILL won't condemn.

Tell that to Tim Parry, the child killed whilst shopping with his family.

But I guess that they should just deal with it.

[JPJones]

5. Tell that to one of your other colonies

Here in the USA, we aren't buying your Imperialist garbage. Tell that to the millions who were slaughtered so that the sun wouldn't set on your Empire.

Tear down your shrine to Oliver Cromwell and face up to the war crimes and genocide committed in Ireland by the British. Checking the scoreboard, your countrymen seem to be slightly ahead in the senseless murder category.

[seemslikeadream]

16. One of those war crimes was leaving my greatgrandmother

an orphan at age 14 in County Wexford.

[WildClarySage]

7. There's been senseless shit on both sides

and nobody can claim their hands are clean. Slinging mud and arrows will not accomplish peace and resolution, but finding a political solution will. Empowering Sinn Fein to come to the negotiating table with political muscle will accomplish what brute force (on both sides) won't. The Irish deserve freedom. The means to achieving it can be peaceful. This is a positive step in that direction.

[cspiguy]

8. we cannot complain about US occupation of Iraq and be blind to UK's

long and sorry history of oppression in Ireland that continues in the north to this day.

[seemslikeadream]

9. oppression in Ireland

It's really too bad Napoleon was busy with other stuff. We could have used his help to save Ireland for the Irish!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

11. UK involvement in Ireland

Nowadays, oppression in Ireland is certainly nothing to do with the UK government (at least not in the last 20 years); if anything the Labour Party is actually pro-Irish nationalist (Labour is the sister party to the Irish nationalist SDLP).

The oppression is at the hands of murderous Loyalist terrorist groups like the UDA, UFF and UVF (and their splinter-groups). They're funded by drugs and protection rackets.

Despite being pro-Irish nationalist, the UK government is unable to withdraw. The Republic of Ireland has no will to take control of the province, for reasons that are both financial and military/security. Support for the UK presence is held up by the slim protestant majority, who are descended from Scots settlers (protestant 54% catholic 46%).

The only feasible conclusion is neither continued union with Britain or a United Ireland. It would probably rely on something like Northern Ireland being a "Anglo-Irish commonwealth", a dual-nationality solution.

[LibLabUK]

17. Yup

"The only feasible conclusion is neither continued union with Britain or a United Ireland. It would probably rely on something like Northern Ireland being a "Anglo-Irish commonwealth", a dual-nationality solution."

Yup. That way would probably go some way to accomodate the wishes of both sides (protestant and catholic) and end the misery that must come through living in a divided community.

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that that wouldn't be enough for some people.

[seemslikeadream]

14. To the principles of fraternity & equality espoused by Wolfe Tone

James Tandy, Thomas Russell, Robert Emmet and countless forgotten others.

Original Declaration of the United Irishmen
FIRST RESOLVED -- That the weight of English influence on the Government of this country is so great as to require a cordial union among all the people of Ireland, to maintain that balance which is essential to the preservation of our liberties and the extension of our commerce.

SECOND -- That the sole constitutional mode by which this influence can be opposed is by a complete and radical reform of the representation of the people in Parliament.

THIRD -- That no reform is practicable, efficacious, or just, which shall not include Irishmen of every religious persuasion.

Satisfied, as we are, that the intestine divisions among Irishmen have too often given encouragement and impunity to profligate, audacious and corrupt administrations, in measure which, but for these divisions, they durst not have attempted, we submit our resolutions to the nation as the basis of our political faith. We have gone to what we conceive to be the root of the evil. We have stated what we conceive to be the remedy. With a Parliament thus reformed, everything is easy; without it, nothing can be done. And we do call on, and most earnestly exhort, our countrymen in general to follow our example, and to form similar societies in every quarter of the kingdom for the promotion of constitutional knowledge, the abolition of bigotry in religion and politics, and the equal distribution of the rights of men through all sects and denominations of Irishmen. The people, when thus collected, will feel their own weight, and secure that power which theory has already admitted to be their portion, and to which, if they be not aroused by their present provocation to vindicate it, they deserve to forfeit their pretensions for ever.

[Briar]

45. Tim Parry

has dealt with it by working for forgiveness and reconciliation. He's an example to us all.

[qwertyMike]

6. Well

:) :) :) :)

[Anarcho-Socialist]

10. I'm glad that Sinn Fein are becoming more peaceful...

...in their means for political change. Although, they'd be on higher moral ground if the provisional IRA stopped their protection racketeering in Northern Ireland.

[seemslikeadream]

15. It helps when "someone" stops arming the IRA

to cause the trouble that has occured!

[dand]

12. Good for Sinn Fein, good for Europe

Any Limey who doesn't like it can kiss my A**. Erin Go Braugh:toast:

[jmcgowanjm]

13. Gerry Adams:I have been in torture photos, too

Some were stripped naked and had black hessian bags
placed over their heads. These bags kept out all light
and extended down over the head to the shoulders. As the
men stood spread-eagled against the wall, their legs
were kicked out from under them. They were beaten with
batons and fists on the testicles and kidneys and
kicked between the legs. Radiators and electric fires
were placed under them as they were stretched over
benches. Arms were twisted, fingers were twisted, ribs
were pummelled, objects were shoved up the anus, they
were burned with matches and treated to games of
Russian roulette. Some of them were taken up in
helicopters and flung out, thinking that they were high in the
sky when they were only five or six feet off the ground. All the
time they were hooded, handcuffed and subjected to
a high-pitched unrelenting noise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,1232058,00.html

Can the UK ship 3k more soldiers to Iraq?
Will anyone be left to guard the Queen?

[Guy_Montag]

18. Lets not forget those tortured by the IRA too,

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/05/12/story147219.html

[mulsh]

20. yea let's not forget

according to your article 613 IRA beatings and shootings vs 1,083 Loyalist beatings somce 1/98



" The Chief Constable told a meeting of the Northern Ireland Policing Board there have been 613 republican assaults since January 1998 – most committed by the IRA.

With the trend slightly upward, he produced an analysis showing how the attacks were drastically scaled back following key Sinn Féin statements calling for an end to all violence.

In one case all punishments were stopped for a two-month period in the run-up to last November’s elections to the Stormont Assembly.

During the same six-year period, loyalist terrorist organisations have inflicted 1,083 bea
tings and shootings."

[Guy_Montag]

21. Yeah but we're not talking about the Loyalists here,

they are scum too. All I was saying is no-one, not the British Army, the NI Police, the Republicans or the Loyalists come away smelling of roses. If Jerry Adams is going to bring up the torture in NI, he should remember what his (former) colleagues are up to.

[Another Bill C.]

19. Update: Sinn Fein wins 2, possibly 3, seats in Euro

c. Republican News and others. Articles may be reprinted with credit.
Republican News
Irish Republican News and Information
http://republican-news.org

Flash: SF wins two Euro seats, chance for third


Sinn Fein's Bairbre de Brun has ben elected on the first count
in the Six Counties election for the European Parliament after
voters were tallied tihs afternoon.

Earlier today, Mary Lou McDonald took the fourth and last seat
in the Dublin constituency to became the party's first Member
of the European Parliament. And, before the end of the day,
the two may be joined in Brussels by a third SF candidate.

In the Six Counties, the DUP's Jim Allister and Sinn Fein's
Bairbre de Brun came first and second with 32.0% and 26.3% of
the vote respectively, and both were elected on the first
count.

The race for the third and last seat will be between Martin
Morgan of the nationalist SDLP who stands on 15.9% and Ulster
Unionist Jim Nicholson, who stands on 16.6%. Transfers from
independent candiate John Gilliland, who took 6.6%, and
Allister's surplus, are expected to ensure Nicholson retains
his seat.

The other two candidates, socialist Eamon McCann and Lidsay
Whitcroft of the Green party, took 1.7% and 0.9% of the vote
respectively.

In his acceptance speech, Jim Allister denounced "Sinn
Fein/IRA", Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble, and the Dublin
and London governments. Portraying the election as a crusade
against Sinn Fein, he declared that the days of "pushing
unionists around are gone". His message to the two governments
was that there would be "no devolution with terror", a
reference to ongoing talks on efforts to resote the
institutions set up under the Good Friday Agreement.

However, Sinn Fein was celebrating its best ever election in
the North, while the SDLP were claiming that, despite losing
John Hume's seat in Europe, their decline has been stemmed.

Meanwhile, despite securing two seats, the combined vote of the
unionist parties dropped to 48.8%, falling short of a majority
for the first time and underlining the fact that the days of
unionist majority rule in the Six Counties are over. (emphasis mine)

[Atlanticist]

22. Disappointed to see this - Sinn Fein have blood on their hands

and those on this board who go all misty-eyed over them could easily be accused of double-standards on terrorism.

After all, one persons "freedom fighter" is another persons terrorist. Let's not forget that until recently, Sinn Fein have advocated the use of terror for political aims - in principle, no different to Hamas or even, dare I say it, Al Qaeda.

Sinn Feinn have had some fair grievances and Britain's historic role in the province is certainly not pure, but lets not forget, Major and Blair would give their eye-teeth to be rid of Northern Ireland. The problem is that a plurality of the people in Northern Ireland are Protestant and loyal to the British Crown. There is currently no democratic route by which Britain can cede NI to the rest of Ireland. If the British government did this without a plebiscite in the province, there would be a bloodbath.

As for those of you who are using this thread as an excuse to tell the rest of the world how evil Britain was in Ireland in the early 19th century, and more recently - grow up. It's a constant dredging up of the past to foster current grievances that has constantly bedevilled peace attempts in Ireland, and is still used to this day by shameless demagogues like Ian Paisley in order to accrue power. Note, he won even more votes than Sinn Fein.

Why extremist parties on both sides cannot be marginalised, I do not know. Between them, the DUP and Sinn Fein won 60% of the votes, with moderate parties on both sides squeezed. Should be very depressing results for all progressives.

Right, I've donned my flak jacket, and am ready for the flames!!!

[AP]

23. Is that a picture of William of Orange?

[Atlanticist]

24. Good grief,

this is my first experience on DU of this kind of simplistic rhetoric. I thought only Republicans debated in this way, and that progressives saw that the world as a bit more nuanced than eg:

Fundie = good
Muslim = bad

Green = good
Orange = bad

I had Chimp down for this kind of formulaic tosh - not DUer's.

Oh well, you live and learn

[Guy_Montag]

25. Come & visit the lounge it's much more comfortable...

I only venture out here occasionally.

And for gods' sake stay out of Israel/Palestine.

[AP]

27. Um, that was a joke.

[Atlanticist]

38. OK, not a very good one given the topic and some of the

views elsewhere in this thread.

[AP]

44. I can't be responsible for other people's posts.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you asked for flames ("flame away"?).

I thought I'd make a joke. I thought you'd think it was funny.

[Bridget Burke]

26. Sinn Fein is a legal political party.

If they're good enough for Tony Blair, who are you to complain?

And where do we draw the line? Terrorism in the last century or oppression in the previous century? It's all history now.

[Guy_Montag]

28. GWB is good enough for Tony Blair

who are you to complain? :P

[Atlanticist]

35. LOL !! (n/t)

[happynewyear]

29. Sinn Fein ...

is also the oldest political party in Ireland. If Tony the poodle Blair doesn't like it, he should get the hell out of Ireland.

Released prisoners abound in Belfast. They can thank Maggie the Thatcher for that.

Sinn Fein isn't going anywhere anytime soon, believe me on that one.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

34. Provisional Sinn Fein is only 35 years old

We must remember that the Sinn Fein of 2004 is not the the Sinn Fein of 1921.

Provisional IRA and Sinn Fein split from the original Sinn Fein back in the late 60s.

[happynewyear]

37. my old grandfather from Louth was in the IRA in 1870

and I have records to prove it.

So call me a liar again ...

[Atlanticist]

40. Bus the IRA is not Sinn Fein

Quoting from spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk :

"In 1902 Arthur Griffith founded a new Irish Republican group called Sinn Fein (Ourselves Alone)."

[Atlanticist]

33. Not sure I've seen Blair endorse Sinn Fein - did I miss something ?

"Who are you to complain ?"

Are you suggesting I'm not entitled to an opinion on this topic ? I gave an opinion - I never complain (except to my wife about the quality of the TV she watches, and I do this unceasingly).

"It's all history now".

Agreed, which is why I get pissed off with both sides dredging up history in order to avoid rational constructive forward-looking dialogue. I read a few particularly one-eyed posts on this thread suggesting Sinn Fein was Rosa Parks/MLK/Ghandi rolled into one, and just thought I'd balance the debate a little.

[Maeve]

30. Sinn Fein is an attempt to get the guns OUT of Irish politics

The IRA has had power when there has been no other voice for the republican/Catholic cause--when the British suppressed political expression, the gunmen grew larger. There was a time when it was forbidden to air the VOICE of a Sinn Fein member, no matter the message--when Gerry Adams was interviewed in America by Larry King, an actor had to voice-over his lines for transmission in the UK. Even non-political gatherings of Catholics have been forbidden in the not-distant past in NI--and that fed the violence.

When London finally began talking publicly to Sinn Fein, Desmond Tutu likened it to the day Mandela was released from prison. (Note: talks had been going on despite the hard-line against them, just not in public, even when Thatcher was allowing internment without charge and torture of prisoners) And we haven't even touched the assassinations of political opponents with the collusion of the police and British secret forces.

The only chance of peace in NI is thru political means. And that means everyone has to have a voice in the vote.

[Atlanticist]

31. Agreed, and when I discuss the response to terrorism

shown by Blair/Bush, I contrast their approach with the fact that only by political dialogue did we ever get peace in Ireland. We've seen in Iraq how successful the army is when it comes to dealing with terrorism.

Not sure I agree with your statement that Sinn Fein is an attempt to get guns out of Ireland, unless by that you mean solely British guns. I would have thought the SDLP, who have consistently argued for change via peaceful means, more warrant that statement than Sinn Fein, who remain ambivalent towards the use of violence.

I totally agree with your final statement, which is why I remain disappointed that both the DUP and SF got the votes they did last week.

[Maeve]

43. We disagree on the earlier history of Sinn Fein

You seem to equate them with the IRA while I believe they grew out of the IRA (a distinction with a difference--the SF people want an end to the use of violence on all sides, including their own). We also disagree that SF "remains ambivalent" to violence.

SF has the "street cred", the power to speak to those who see violence as a solution, that the SDLP does not--sometime it takes hard men to govern harder men. However, I don't believe that SF has ever controlled the IRA or any of the split-off groups of idjits with guns. The only control they have is to say "Let us try and judge the results." For what it's worth, they have had more than a modicum of success in cutting down the out-and-out terrorist tactics (random bombings and the like).

I'd prefer to see the radicals of all stripes involved in the political process--those who feel voiceless are most prone to violence. I also believe the process leads to greater understanding of the "enemy" and the opening of options.

[Atlanticist]

46. I absolutely do not equate them with the IRA, but

they were (and still to my knowledge remain) the political wing of the IRA. To that extent, they were (are) apologists for terror - just as the PUP were (are) apologists for terror.

Until Sinn Fein unambiguously disavow violence, I have to conclude they remain "ambivalent" about achieving political ends through entirely peaceful means.

I agree with most of your final two paragraphs, particularly about involving all in the political process (though am not sure I agree with you that Sinn Fein have always been separate to the IRA - if Sinn Fein are not controlling the IRA, who's silenced their guns ?). That doesn't however mean I have to be happy that the hardliners of both sides have cleaned the table politically. What does this tell you about the hardening of positions in Northern Ireland that Ian Paisley can top the poll? Yes, he has to be involved in the process as he speaks for a huge chunk of the electorate, but that doesn't mean I can't express disappointment about it.

[Maeve]

47. I think your view of Sinn Fein is highly colored

They are a political party apart from the administration of the IRA--the two communicate but do not control each other, but SF has convinced the IRA to listen and co-operate for the good of all in several cases. John Hume recognized that Sinn Fein was dedicated to finding a peaceful solution back in 1986--unfortunately, it took a long time for him to convince his own party of that.

From what I've seen, the DUP runs a two-pronged campaign--claiming to be for peace while stiring up images of the "horrors" of not putting them in power. (Their website makes me think of the worst of America's right-wing for viciousness-- Anyone wishing to see it can find the link on Google or thru the BBC news links; I won't post it on DU out of respect for this board.)

And feel free to express disappointment in any election results you like; we disagree on some facts, not on the threat of polarization in a powder-keg!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

32. I agree with your points n/t

[Atlanticist]

36. Thanks for the support - I know this is a touchy topic but I feel that

there are usually two sides to a grievance, and reconciliation can only be reached through mutual understanding. The rest is "full of sound and fury - signifying nothing".

[Bridget Burke]

39. So people are trying to use the vote.

Not guns & not bombs.

[Atlanticist]

41. And for that, we should all rejoice

All I've said is that I'm disappointed that the extremists on both sides of the political divide (SF and the DUP) managed to get the most votes. I've made no comment on the nature of the democratic process. I'm disappointed about the outcome in Ireland - I do not see such a deep divide help deepen the roots of peace.

Sinn Fein have a violent history. The DUP have a demagogic, nasty, but ultimately political history. Both sides today are engaging in rhetoric in order to energise their bases. I'm sorry, I don't like that kind of politics.

Having said that, of course I'm delighted that Sinn Fein have at last decided to further their political aims through the ballot box and not through the injudicious use of Semtex.

[Southsideirish]

42. My dad, an old Sinn Fein'er, would be very proud if he were alive

today!