Iraq Dossier Blow to Blair

[Pert_UK]

"The (UK) government's attempts to bolster its case for the war against Iraq suffered a heavy blow on the first day of the Hutton inquiry yesterday when it was revealed that unease about the dossier on Saddam Hussein's weapons programme ran much deeper than Downing Street has claimed.

Evidence presented to the inquiry into the apparent suicide of the Ministry of Defence scientist David Kelly showed that concerns expressed by Dr Kelly about the language of the government's dossier was shared within the intelligence community, even at a senior level.

In a further undermining of Tony Blair's case, the inquiry heard that Dr Kelly's status was much more significant than the government has admitted, a direct rebuttal of last week's description of the dead scientist by a No 10 press officer as a Walter Mitty fantasist...

Dr Kelly's knowledge of the dossier and the advice he gave was much more extensive than the government has admitted, the inquiry heard."

Full story:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/story/0,13747,1016878,00.html

[Rex]

1. If Blair doesn't get kicked out of office

over this then I don't beleive the UK is anymore "Democratic" than the US.

[Pert_UK]

2. Give us SOME credit.....

At least we don't elect professional wrestlers!

P.

[NNN0LHI]

3. You have a point n/t

[GAspnes]

4. hey, now!

I resemble that remark. Besides, Ventura was a better governor than the right-wing cowpat, Pawlenty, that we have now.

Pawlenty, in fact, offers an interesting illustration of how this White House works.

Timmy boy was going to run against Norm Coleman in the Republican primary, to then challenge Wellstone in the election. Pawlenty, as a legislator, was more popular and electable than Norm-the-weasel, mayor of St. Paul. Cheney called Tim personally and told him to get out of the Senate primary and run for governor instead, because the White House wanted Norm to run unopposed. Norm's also to the right of Timmy. Guess what Pawlenty did three days later? Dropped out of the Senate race and declared for governor.

So, given the current circumstances in California, I have no doubt that Rove knew who the candidate(s) would be before the recall even.

[Pert_UK]

5. What on earth does "I resemble that remark" mean???

I'm not having a go at you specifically, as I've seen lots of people use it and heard a few on US TV too......what does it mean?

It seems to be used as a substitute for "I resent that remark", but "resemble" means "looks like" or "is similar to", at least according to my education and all the definitions I've found.

What is going on?

P.

P.S.
Great Russell quote by the way!

[Guaranteed]

6. It's a humorous admission of guilt ;) n/t

[Pert_UK]

8. As I suspected........BTW...does your name come from Randall P McMurphy?

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is the only place I've ever come across the description. Am I right?

P.

[FubarFly]

10. Perhap GAspnes is a professional wrestler...

It's a free country.


:-)

[GAspnes]

41. sorry for the confusion

I live in Minnesota. "I resent that remark" morphs humorously into "I resemble that remark" when the comment is critical, but true.

[Rex]

13. True, point well taken.

But I mean COME ON...how much more will it take to bring the Blair Regime down? Does he have to be caught with his hands around someone's neck?

[leesa]

30. Well look at us! We spearheaded all this garbage

and we haven't even the courage to suggest that maybe, just maybe the Chimp did something wrong. The Brits have it far more together than the US does. Bush could slit a child's throat on live TV and he would be praised for his excellent technique.

[Rex]

45. I guess I expected more out of the Brits

They've been around alot longer than we have - have more history under their belts as it were.

[AP]

15. UK is WWWAAAYYYYY more democratic today compared to '96

and it's getting more democratic every day, thanks to Blair.

You can start with reform of the Lords and go all the way up to reford of the LCD, and every step of the way, Blair is making the UK more democratic. Most significantly, he's spreading more wealth among the middle class, and a wealthy middle class is the absolute key to greater democracy (and social justice).

[Spentastic]

20. Oh do fuck off

That reform of the lords went really well. Blair changed his mid didn't he?

More democratic? Quangoism is at an all time high.

PFI is inherently undemocratic.

Non elected officials command civil servantsl

More wealth for the middle class? The rich and poor grew further apart in each year of Tony's tenure.

Blair can blow me.

[T_i_B]

27. Unfortunatly, your claim has no basis in fact whatsoever

What more proof is needed that you are either a hopeless serial liar or have no knowlege of UK politics than this pathetic claim AP. Britain is a one party state, a democracy in name only, as this article demonstrates.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,821179,00.html

Britain has evolved into a mental as well as political one-party state. There's a uniformity of allegiance, under which the absence of organised disagreement legitimises, or at any rate readily accepts, a culture of easy opportunism.

The government rejoices in this, but the Tory disintegration is just as responsible for it. We see that the failure of the Tories stretches far beyond the party. It taints the entire quality of British life. For there is no alternative magnet of power, no competition for Blairism, and this means that contention is mostly futile. The establishment, whether in politics, in business or in intellectual life, is all of one colour. There is little point in being anything else.

This is an unhealthy, ultimately repellent, national condition, not found in any other western democracy. The one-party state of mind as well as politics doesn't seem to be making the country happier, or better governed. It is a direct, pernicious consequence of the collapse of the Tories as a political force. It has pretty well the entire establishment, for reasons of opportunism or comfort or idleness, in its grip.

[Spentastic]

29. Yes

At which point am I allowed to call someone on this messageboard a liar?

I've been carpeted for it elsewhere but there are some people that lend a veneer of respectability to venal administration. The poster involved seems to now have sunk to asserting things with no evidence whatever.

[AP]

31. Two things:

- You are insane if you think the bipolarity of power between Tories and Labour did anything good for britain. To be nostalgic for that is sick.

- I have a theory about politics that the more evilness that was required to get into a situation, the harder it is to get out of it. Take colonialism for instance. It took a ton of ugliness to impose colonialism. Therefor, you're not going to get out of it overnight. In a century, Africa and the Phillipines will probably be as a big a mess as they are today, and as they were 50 years ago...unless you accelarate the move towards progress, which requires a little trauma.

The way I see British politics today is that labour is trying to go through the trauma as fast as possible to undo the horrors the tories have committed on the average brit. It ain't pretty, but it's progress. And you're the one who should wonder if they've been consciously experience life in Britain since 1997 if you don't see Lords Reform to LCD reform as a desperately needed move towards progress (sometimes incremental ans sometimes dramatic). Is nostalgia for the past so much a part of the British genetic structure that you can't see how incredibly conservative your social and political structures are and that you can't appreciate how dramatic change since 97 has been?

[Spentastic]

34. For crying out loud

Parliamentary democracy requires an active and effective opposition> Without it you have the very situation that TiB's article presents.

The Tories were in power for what? 18 years? Well Labour have now had what 6? What have they done?

I'm sorry I just don't see the radical changes you are talking about.

Lords reform is stalled. The last lot of "elected" peers just happened to be a bunch of literati Blairites.

NHS still failing. It looks as if PFI will deliver our public services to the market. This won't help the poor.

Education - WTF are they doing the aim is to send 80% of kids to UUni. Why bother? Once there we just saddle them with £25k debt.

Immigration. Tony is proud top proclaim we are now sending more back than we have before. Brilliant.

LCD reform - who's in charge? Tony's old flatmate for fucks sake.

War - Why?

"incredibly conservative your social and political structures are and that you can't appreciate how dramatic change since 97 has been?"

Obviously not. However, I believe that you are suffering from the emperors new clothes syndrome.

[KoKo]

7. So the "cardio pads" were placed by pramedics and Kelly was High level and

not the "Walter Mitty" low level that Blair's defenders claimed. Interesting.....and he hadn't had a pay raise in three years and worried about his pension.

High Level....... The Truth!

[goforit]

9. How much longer is this gonna take?...TAKE HIM OUT UK!!!!!!

There is so much evidence against him and nothing is being done!!!

Unbelievable!!!!

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. Ummm... we in the US don't have a right to talk, goforit

We've got six times as much evidence about Bush, and even LESS is being done about it here.

[fabius]

16. And Blair's able to defend himself verbally...

...unlike Smirk who barely knows how to speak English,... er I mean Texan.

[pretzel4gore]

14. blair's a cold blooded murderer.....

and if you factor in the bribing of the iraqi military commanders before the 'war'......he's outright evil!

[dArKeR]

17. Do you actually Blair had anything to do with this? Oh my gosh!

This entire Satan's Plan came from Bush's orders. It was completely designed by Bush's staff. Blair was just told what to do by the Moral Majority USA. Wake up and clear your head!

[AP]

18. Blair is looking after UK and European interest. Bush

would be happier if the UK weren't involved. Blair is the clever one in this chess game.

[Spentastic]

21. But it's not a game AP

Do you wish to explain to the kid with no arms that he was a pawn that just HAD to be sacrificed?

European interests? Would that include French and German interests? In which case Blair has done em both up like a kipper.

[AP]

32. Why can't you see that Blair is probably

doing this with France and Germany's cooperation. They let him take the political heat for them because he's the best politician among them.

You should read The End of The American Era. There is a ton at stake for Europe in its relationship wit the US, and the US invasion of Iraq is almost certainly designed to control the spigots of EU economic growth for the next 50 years. To let the Americans do this without any European interest involved would have been suicidal for all of Europe.

Economic troubles alwasy result in conservative governments (unless you have politicians with the force of personality of an FDR, which is rare). If the US controls Iraq alone, you'll see shitty economies accross Europe, and then you'll see conservative governments which are really willing to allow the US to control the world so long as their rich insiders get a cut.

War and imperialism is totally bullshit, but I'm as worried about millions of Europeans living as wage slaves for two masters: conservative governments across Europe, and the US hegemony as I am of the immediate victims of imperialist attrocities.

[T_i_B]

40. Blair is doing this with the co-operation of France?

Yes right Another Poodle, which is why when war broke out he was doing everything in his power to blame Chirac & demonize the French just like his best pal George W Bush. :eyes:

Spentastic is right, you are one hell of a loony. :crazy: :silly: :crazy:

[dudeness]

22. its funny how a half empty glass can look half full to some

how is blair looking after the interests of the UK ? and how does he look after the interests of Europe? of all the leaders of "the coalition of the willing" blair is under the gun..his quest to be president of the EC is a dismal failure..he is regarded as no more than a lapdog in Europe and vast numbers of his party are becoming nervous at his leadership..this does not sit well in the Labour Party..its only a matter of time before he is finished..

[Spentastic]

23. I'm actually concerned

That AP is mentally unstable when it comes to Mr Blair. I'm pretty sure that if there were pictures of Mr Blair personally strangling Dr Kelly, AP would find a way to rationalise Tony's behaviour.

To be fair to AP, whoever they are have been unwavering in their support of Tony and his cronies. However, as with his master the limbs on which they are starting to go out are getting more and more spindly.

I think it's a damn shame. Tony had a chance to introduce a truly left looking goverment. He bottled it fell into the pockets of big business (well he had to didn't he AP). He couldn't make an ethical decision now if someone's life depended on it.

Clinton and Tony cut from the same cloth. Both started well and finished as wankers.

[0007]

24. I can only guess

..........but what is the world is a wanker?

I hope this doesn't take away your undivided attention.

[Spentastic]

26. Er

One who indulges in the act of self pleasuring

[lanlady]

36. in the American lexicon

a jerk-off.

[AP]

33. I think Clinton finished well

Clinton and Blair are transitional leaders. They are important leaders in the tradition from societies with deep conservative impulses to societies which can support real liberal, progressive insititutions.

Of course there's always the risk that the impatient progressives will bite the hand that feeds and end up back at square one. I don't think it will happen in Britain though. In the US, it took a stolen election by the right to undo Clinton's progress. I wonder if they'll try something like that in the UK, because the right wing stoking the flames of attack from the left has been effective, but not effective enough.

[Spentastic]

35. I was right

you are:silly:

[T_i_B]

39. "Clinton and Blair are transitional leaders"

Are they now? Well in that case how about we complete the transition by replacing Blair with a genuine leader? :evilgrin: A progressive who recognizes the supremacy of justice over authoritarianism and works on behalf of the poor and the needy whom Blair has quite deliberatly ignored or shat on. Blair has paralyzed our government by his poodling over Iraq and the only way out for the labour party is to replace Blair with a leader who listens to Britain and has the inclination and the courage to stand up for what is right (unlike Blair).

Blair is past his sell by date. "new" labour is no longer new and quite frankly it stinks like a turd in a lift. It's time for a change. Time for Blair to go.

[Briar]

37. Blair started as he's ended....

"I think it's a damn shame. Tony had a chance to introduce a truly left looking goverment. He bottled it fell into the pockets of big business (well he had to didn't he AP). He couldn't make an ethical decision now if someone's life depended on it."

I think you give him too much credit, Spentastic. I watched with dismay when he became leader of the Labour Party and from the moment he took power it was obvious that he was not merely in the pockets of big business, but that he was actually Thatcher's heir. Friends who belonged to the Labour party kept telling me, "Don't worry, he's just doing this to get power. When he has got it then he'll change." But I was aware of telling little details of policy like his declaration that Chris Woodhead would stay on as head of Ofsted, and feared otherwise.

Even I, however, did not think he would turn into a far-right wing American President's poodle and sell out British, European and UN interests wholesale...

And as for his enthusiasm for faith-based initiatives - oh dear! Since he can't become President of the US, and Europe wouldn't touch him with a barge-pole now (or shouldn't), perhaps he could spend his retirement as President of some Bible College in the midwest.

[T_i_B]

38. I have a better idea

since Blair is forever blathering on about how he is building a better Iraq (yeah right!) I suggest we shove him off to Bahgdad. It's not like he's wanted here.

[Briar]

42. That would serve Blair right...

...but wouldn't it be rather hard on the Iraqis?

<g>

[grytpype]

11. Lord Hutton's report is going to be devastating.

He is really going to rip Blair a new one, in the way only an English barrister knows how.

[AP]

19. English barristers, by the way, can never be sued for malpractice

because the solicitor hires them, and the client has no privit of contract with the barrister, the client can't sue the barrister. And you know what? Getting the advice of a barrister, according to English law, insulates a solicitor from malpractice (ie, it might be malpractice for a solicitor not to get the advice of a barrister, but it's a legal impossibility to be negligent once you've taken the advice of a barrister). Needless to say, this protection racket can result in some pretty shoddy legal advice.

This doesn't have much to do with Lord Hutton, but when I read your statement "in the way only an English barrister knows how" I almost laughed out loud.

Fortunately, one of the many reforms labour has in its sight is to eliminate irrationalities like these (which the Tories protected for years, and which I doubt the Lib Dems care about) from the justice system.

[jamesinca]

25. Will this get across the pond

Will this start to take down Bush? Will the U.S. news pick up on this? I may have to go to my local representatives office tommorrow and talk with hem. He is a Repug and I wrote him about the war, he wanted to know if I was going to be a patriot, or French like.

[Julien Sorel]

28. There was a time when I'd assume

the comment about being 'French-like' was a joke, but that was several years ago. Did you make that up, or did your congressman really say that?

[genius]

43. Hopefully when they kick out Tony, they won't get someone

who will be even cozier with Bush. We need to check his potential replacements when Tony goes down for all this.

[davsand]

44. Our hopes hang on Blair's downfall.

I'm delighted to see Blair getting mauled. In many ways, if shrub is ever going to face any justice here in the US it will be because of the stuff that the British media publishes.

Every lie and coverup that comes out on Blair points to yet another misdeed done by our "Presi-dunce." It all leads back to the WhiteHouse and we know it. There is enough there right now to impeach GW Bush, but our media refuses to either put it together or publish it once it is handed to them. Rove's manipulation of American media and the pass they've given to the chimp has got to be eroded by the Brit press. Once it hits there, the US media has no choice except to cover it.

You guys are gonna have to save us from ourselves...

Laura

[DoYouEverWonder]

46. Too bad David Kelley

wasn't a 22 year old intern. Then this story would be covered 24/7.