Islamic Group Shows Tape of U.S. Hostage

[hightime]

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - An Islamic Web site showed videotape Tuesday of a blindfolded American hostage in Saudi Arabia, and said abductors threatened to kill him unless Saudi authorities free al-Qaida prisoners within three days.

Paul Johnson, 49, of Stafford Township, N.J., was abducted Saturday by a group calling itself al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. The organization is believed to be headed by al-Qaida's chief in the kingdom, Abdullah-aziz al-Moqrin, who was identified as speaking on the tape.

"My name is Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr.," the seated hostage says in the tape, an elaborate tattoo on his left shoulder. "I am an American. ... I work on Apache helicopters."

A U.S. official said the threat should be taken "very seriously" because the posting appears to be credible and militants have used the site before. "It has been a good indicator in the past," the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040615/D837O84G0.html

[bluestateguy]

1. War crimes

I have no expectation that Al Qaeda would ever abide by the rules of the Geneva Convention, regardless of what the US does, but we forfeit any claim to sympathy from other countries when we authorize torture at prisons

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DerBeppo]

3. no flame

coming from this direction.

[stickdog]

4. "You will side with PEOPLE who slit the throats of innocent Americans."

What people are you talking about?

[Red State Rebel]

11. The people holding this man hostage as well as others

who have been treated just like this in Iraq. The ones who killed the contractors and hung their burned body parts from the bridge, etc.

Anyone, Al Quaida, Insurgents, etc. who would do this stuff deserves to have a German Shepherd snapping at his crotch.

They hold no moral conventions regarding their actions toward our own Soldiers and innocent citizens, they deserve what they get in my book.

[stickdog]

79. With very few exceptions, they aren't the same people. (nt)

[Occulus]

100. You capitalize "soldiers"

but not "citizens."

Interesting.

[Forkboy]

115. Picked up on that to

we used to have a poster here that always capitalized "Patriotic Soldiers". :shrug:

[Doctor Smith]

6. So you are attempting to justify torture.

There is another compelling reason for us not to torture prisoners, which is seldom mentioned. We would like the other side to surrender when cornered, rather than continuing to fight. If they believe they will be tortured, they will not surrender, and there will be more casualties, including Americans.

[freetobegay]

7. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Torture, abuse, call it what you want, it's not an American value & I will fight anyone who tries to make it one!

[Red State Rebel]

14. I'm not calling it an American value, I'm calling it battlefield strategy.

If they were pulling out their fingernails or cutting off their hands ala Saddam, it would be one thing, putting the fear of Allah in them is something else.

[Kipepeo]

16. wow

So is sodomizing people with chemical lights "putting the fear of Allah in them?"

[Red State Rebel]

20. No, I think that is going too far.

But I also don't condemn the entire military for the actions of those few soldiers who crossed the line.

Sleep deprevation, bread and water, inciting fear I don't believe is over the line when it comes to doing what we have to do to protect our own.

[Kipepeo]

25. what?

Who is talking about "condemning" the whole military?

The point is, it is not only immoral for the US to authorize and torture and ignore the Geneva Conventions, it is also stupid and bad for OUR troops. It makes us look like hypocrites, causes us to lose sympathy from other countries, weakens our own outrage at torture commited against our soldiers, gives amunition to those who would harm our troops, etc.

I still don't understand what you are disagreeing with. Do you just want someone to rank tortures?

[DS1]

32. Wow, you bought right into it, didn't you

It's not the actions of a few, it's widespread DoD sponsored abuse, it's not the 'actions of a few'.

Your own argument falls apart, should we put the fear of God into all of our troops because of 'the actions of a few'?

[Red State Rebel]

39. Prove to me

that all of the soldiers are abusing, and I don't mean barking dogs, naked pyramids, etc. I mean physical torture, sodomizing, rape, murder.

If the DOD approved sleep deprivation, bread and water, barking dogs, etc. I have no problem with that. Those are not torture.

I haven't bought into anything. I have a higher standard of proof than some people.

[DS1]

40. Senators walking out of viewings of these pictures isn't proof enough?

As if they are in on some sort of lie of their own?

[Red State Rebel]

86. Until I know for myself what they saw I will not judge.

[lolly]

50. According to the Geneva Convention

It is torture.

And it's forbidden.

Or do you think it would be OK if the Al Quaida people "only" forced our soldiers to stand for hours in "stress" positions in extreme temperatures and deprived them of sleep for weeks at a time? Would this really be OK with you? Or would you want them caught and put on trial? I certainly would.

[Red State Rebel]

85. AlQuaeda wouldn't know the Geneva Convention

if you smacked them up side the head with it. They don't care and they never will.

I would be thrilled if the 3,000 people on 9/11 had only been subjected to sleep deprevation, bread and water, etc. instead of what happened to them. Not to mention the ones who had to choose between leaping to their deaths or burning.

There is absolutely no comparison.

[saigon68]

94. Actually there is a comparison

Its sick thinking like yours that promotes TORTURE and rewards guys like MILLER with 2 stars.

Your "soldiers" are being mislead by an evil corporate Cabal.

but then again you apparently admire the character "flaws" below

If Saddam had done this to USA POWs the DEATH PENALTY would be in play

But Pray tell, How could Saddam top this ???

When the POW had a PLASTIC FLASHLIGHT RAMMED UP HIS RECTUM ???

When a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG BIT HIM IN THE TESTICLES ???

When the POW had a 220 Volt wire attached with a clip to the TIP OF HIS PENIS ???

When Lynndie England was encouraged to help the POWs obtain erections so they could perform ORAL SEX ACTS ON EACH OTHER and the PERKY PRINCESS OF ABU GHRAIB PRISON COULD SHOUT "HE'S GETTING HARD"???

When a POW was beaten to death, HIS BODY PACKED IN ICE and TAKEN OUT IN THE
DESERT AND DUMPED Or the Photos of Graner and Lynndie’s sidekick the Lovely Sabrina Harman smiling over the dead corpse.

When Lynndie apparently on Orders collected a number of Dirty Used KOTEX MAXI-PADS to be worn and tied to the Heads of POWs, Or when Graner made POW’s eat food thrown in Toilets and then commented that the Prison Guard part of him said he loved to see them “PISS THEMSELVES”

When Four U.S. soldiers from the 3rd Brigade Combat Team will be reprimanded for forcing two Iraqi detainees to jump off a bridge into the Tigris River killing one of them.

How about interrogators torturing children and the presenting them to the parents to get them to reveal WHATEVER?

When soldiers themselves admit dogs were used and when Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, recalled for
Army investigators an episode "when two dogs were brought into 1A to scare an inmate. He was naked against the wall, when they let the dogs corner him. They pulled them back enough, and the prisoner ran . . . straight across the floor. . . . The prisoner was cornered and the dog bit his leg. A couple seconds later, he started to move again, and the dog bit his other leg."





When photos show a Naked man covered in Feces beaten in the head by a THUG holding a police Baton?



When a Civilian Interrogator ANALLY RAPED A 15 YEAR OLD BOY IN FRONT OF GI WITNESSES ( who apparently used a camcorder to memorialize the child’s screams as his ANUS was savagely attacked) and the RAPIST is going to get a free pass because he was under NO ONES JURISDICTION ???

[Just Me]

114. Oh, Saigon,....that just makes me cry.

:cry:

What have we become? :cry:

[leftynyc]

113. I'm not really sure what your implication is

Does what some soldiers (and I agree with an above poster that that regardless of what memos are going around in the DOD - this involved a small percentage of our military)do to some prisoners, are we to give a pass to those who will kidnap and slice the throats of our citizens?

Do you really believe that Al Quaida and Co. care about the Geneva Convention?

[thebigidea]

90. so you haven't read the Taguba report that mentions the sodomy/rape?

Are you calling General Taguba a liar?

Why aren't you supporting the troops?

[freetobegay]

17. There is no spinning this, What some American soldiers did

WAS WRONG! & they should be punished! We are not animals & we have no reason to stoop to that level, no reason whatsover. & please remember you are not the only one that has loved one's in the middle East right now.

[Red State Rebel]

26. You are correct, some did go over the line...

Sodomizing people with chemical lights, etc. is wrong, but from what I've read, that was the exception instead of the rule. It doesn't pay to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some people in DU and elsewhere are making it sound like they have more care for the prisoners than our own Soldiers. These people weren't put in there for speeding, particlularly in this section of the prison where this occured.

[LiberalVoice]

48. I think it's funny that you put it in those terms...

A repug senator said the same thing a few days before a report brought out by the red cross saying that anywhere between 70-90% of the people imprisoned in Abu Ghraib WERE NOT TERRORISTS or fighting with the "insurgents".

[stickdog]

80. Really? What were they put in prison for, then? (mt)

[saigon68]

95. They were put in Prison

Because they are Nationalists opposed to US Corporations like Halliburton taking over their country and The Bush Apologist above wants us here to go along with it because he has a few relatives whose lives might be in danger for volunteering to support this rape of a sovereign nation----sick

[mike_c]

117. let me say this clearly so that you can attach at least one name...

...to your characterization of "some people." I care more about the welfare of the Iraqi people brutalized by the U.S. invasion and occupation than I care about the welfare of their abusers. A U.S. military uniform is not a moral pass. The occupiers of Iraq are war criminals. The Iraqi insurgents are patriotic resistance fighters defending their land, their families, their honor, and their cultures. I have absolutely no respect for Americans acting as thugs and enforcers for the neo-con pretenders. That, succinctly, is my view of the U.S. military's mission in Iraq.

[LiberalVoice]

8. It was ALOT more then barking dogs.

Is there a difference between a terrorist slitting someone's throat on video and american soldiers beating someone to death in prison?

All Muslims don't hate America just like all Americans don't hate Muslim's.

[Red State Rebel]

15. Prove to me, and I mean PROVE that Americans have

beaten someone to death in prison abuse and we will talk.

[LiberalVoice]

21. Here ya go.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html

I'm ready to talk when you are...

[saigon68]

111. He should look at post 94 above

But he won't

[LiberalVoice]

9. Dupe

[Kipepeo]

10. no flame but...

how has bluestateguy "sided" with ANYone? Looks to me like you're the one flaming for someone who only said that:

A) They don't think Al Qaeda will ever abide by the Geneva Convention

B) The US has lost sympathy from other countries because we have authorized torture

I don't see any "siding." I agree with both of those sentiments. I think we place our troops in more danger when we ignore the geneva Conventions ourselves or when we okay torture. Why give any kind of encouragement to people who would do harm against our troops?

Again, I'm not flaming you...just don't understand the conclusions you came to from that post.

[Deja Q]

27. So that means we shouldn't make an attempt either?

Makes us no worse than them if we do the same shit the people we are 'liberating' had to live through. It actually makes us worse since we're a big organized country where these terrorists are a bunch of mosquitoes.

[lolly]

49. But what if it COSTS the lives of many Americans?

You say

"if holding a barking dog on a leash in front of them while they are naked saves the life of ONE American or Coalition Soldier, I'll hold the damn leash myself."

MI personnel have already pointed out the uselessness of such tactics in finding information. Especially since, as the Red Cross pointed out, the vast majority of those rounded up were mistakenly arrested, they are more likely to give false information to avoid torture than to give any useful information (since they don't have any!) and chasing down false leads wastes valuable time.

The resulting ill will creates a dangerous situation for our soldiers by encouraging revenge and discouraging surrender.

Face it, it's not information they were after. If that's all they wanted, we wouldn't see all the grinning faces (over a corpse, for G-d's sake!) and thumbs-up signs.

[Magleetis]

63. What about

the 5000 or so innocent civilians we have killed in Iraq. Do they count? There is no difference between slitting a persons throat and dropping a bomb on their head. We started this mess and the anti-war movement predicted these sort of things would happen. We kicked the hornets nest and we will suffer the consequences.

[LibertyorDeath]

71. SaidFred before you pick up that leash

First of all it is not al-Qaida members being Tortured or tormented by barking dogs. It is mostly innocent Iraqi civilians.




"Torture is only the tip of the iceberg," said Roger Normand, an international lawyer who directs the Center. "From unlawful killings, mass arrests, and collective punishment to outright theft and pillage, the U.S. is violating almost every law intended to protect civilians living under foreign military occupation."
MORE http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0609-06.htm

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/cia_iraq.htm

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cia+helped+bring+saddam+to+power&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

American backed sanction killed Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children

UNICEF estimated that the sanctions against Iraq
resulted in the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children under
the age of 5. In May 1996 "60 Minutes" correspondent
Lesley Stahl asked Madeleine Albright, US Ambassador
to the UN: "We have heard that half a million children
have died . I mean, that is
more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know,
is the price worth it?"

Albright responded: "I think that is a very hard
choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth
it."
http://thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/13623_comment.php
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/VetsDemanEndIraqSanc.htm

http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/iraq.html

The Torture of Iraqi prisoners the vast majority of whom are innocent civilians is not done by a few bad apples

IT IS STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE.
New Report Documents Extensive U.S. War Crimes In Iraq http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0609-06.htm
NEW YORK - June 9 - The Bush Administration is committing war crimes and other serious violations of international law in Iraq as a matter of routine policy, according to a report released today by the Center for Economic and Social Rights. The report, "Beyond Torture: U.S. Violations of Occupation Law in Iraq," documents ten categories of war crimes and rights violations regularly committed by U.S. forces. It can be accessed at http://www.cesr.org/beyondtorture.pdf.

Tout torture, get promoted

Robert Scheer - Creators Syndicate

06.15.04 - What a revelation to learn that the Justice Department lawyer who wrote the infamous memo in effect defending torture is now a U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals judge. It tells you all you need to know about the sort of conservative to whom George W. Bush is turning in his attempt to pack the federal courts.
http://www.workingforchange.com/printitem.cfm?itemid=17123


During 12 years in the US Marines, including three years putting new recruits through boot camp, Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey hardly questioned his role. But what he saw in Iraq changed that.

"In a month and a half my platoon and I killed more than 30 civilians," Mr Massey said. He saw bodies being desecrated and robbed, and wounded civilians being dumped by the roadside without medical treatment. After he told his commanding officer that he felt "we were committing genocide", he was called a "wimp".
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992

As Kafkaesque and Orwellian as this fascist inquisition tainted oil war seems, there is a greater genocide far worse than torture and death.
It is so heinous that focusing on torture, rape and murder is a diversion that helps cloak the greater crime.

It is the crime of killing Iraqi children for the next thousands of years. The amount of radioactive waste and depleted uranium that has been spread throughout the country is staggering. One may hear from technocrats that "depleted" uranium is no hazard although they would not want it in their backyard. Nothing is further from the truth. The killing power is spread over centuries and millenia. In a sandy dusty environment the toxins will be uncovered time and again.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1791993&mesg_id=1791993

[TahitiNut]

83. Well, neither the Mafia nor the Columbian drug cartels abide by the

... Geneva Conventions, either. So f*cking what!?!

We invaded and conquered (some f*cking "accomplishment"!) two small, weak countries using the excuse that some criminal organization "did us wrong." We didn't get behind the ICC. We didn't use international law enforcement. We went in like a country that spends more on its military than the combined total of the next 22 highest spending countries in the world to prove how "brave" and "righteous" we are. What bunch of vicious, cretinous, arrogant, pathological horse shit!

"Stupid" is not taking the advice of experienced and mature people and learning from the lessons of history. "Insanity" is to keep on doing it expecting the results to be different.

The US is criminally insane.

[jukes]

87. it's wrong

it's illegal, it's morally repugnant, and it's evil.

blame the assholes that sent them, not the people attempting to repel invaders.

also, it's AQ threatening the american carpetbagger in saudi. never been ANY proof that AQ even exists in iraq.

these people are animals, & we are animals, in both naturalistic & sociological senses of the word.

ever get a REAL ass-kicking? not a high school fist fight, but really worked over by a professional? it hurts, & not like a trip to the dentist. personally, i hate pissing blood.

i'm very sorry for your relatives that are involved in this mess. i'm a VN veteran; i know that even if they come back, you'll never see them again. the people who return from this will never be what they might have been.

btw, they weren't just threatened w/dogs. many have been beaten to death. do you want to beat a man to death? w/o REAL training, it's a lot of work to even beat a man unconscious. how's your C/V conditioning? or maybe just fuck some man w/ a cayalume? w/ your desires, you can make $120K a year, doing what you say you want to do to these animals.

you don't mean it; it's frustration & rage that caused your outburst. save your rage for the amoral, avaricious, PRIVILEGED bastards that have ruined the lives of your family members. please.

we may be forced to become freedom fighters, repelling this damn aristocracy, ourselves soon.

[FudgeOff]

5. but we forfeit any claim to sympathy from other countries when we

authorize torture at prisons? I think the prisoners that Al Quaeda are currently holding and threatening would feel differently. Are you so blinded by your hate for this war that you somehow come up with an excuse for Al Quaeda to forfeit the rules of the Geneva Convention? Hate the war, but don't condone the murder of innocent people.

[Kipepeo]

12. hey Fudge

The only people providing an "excuse" to Al Quaeda are the people who defend (and authorize) torture when it is inflicted BY Americans.

[Red State Rebel]

34. Al Quaeda has never needed an excuse...

They are extremest Muslims. They base what they do on their twisted idea of their faith.

Nothing we do or don't do is going to change that.

[Kipepeo]

51. read the post I was responding to

My point is that if anyone is "proving an excuse" it is not people who point out US hypocrisy in defending torture when it's commited by us, it IS the people who defend torture when it's commited by us.

[stickdog]

81. And what do you base what WE do on?

Muslims are human beings. The 99% them are rational. Pretending that what we do has no effect whatsoever on any more than a tiny percentage of Muslim psychos is the most ignorant an primitive form of xenophobia.

[bluestateguy]

13. I'm going to clarify my point here

I don't expect Al Qaeda to fullow the rules because they are terrorists. I have always supported an aggessive policy against them, which the war in Iraq distracts from.

I have the right to expect better from the United States than torture and abuse in prisons. That kind of conduct is what we would expect from Al Qaeda. My point was that we lose sympathy from people all over the world, as well as moral authority when we condone abuse and torture just because the enemy does it. Though this man and his family deserve our sympathy, it's harder for the US to earn the sympathy and cooperation from our allies that we will need when we do what we did at Abu Grahaib.

[Red State Rebel]

18. What has been proven to have happened

in Abu Graib, not what has been gossiped and assumed, isn't anywhere close to this.

These people don't give a rip about moral authority - they have one goal and one goal only and that is to kill as many Americans as they can.

Do you honestly think that if Abu Graib hadn't happened that none of the coalition soldiers or American Contractors would have been killed the way they have?

[Kipepeo]

22. I still don't understand

what about bluestateguy's post you disagree with.

[thebigidea]

28. just keep saying that to yourself: it isn't ANYWHERE close to this...

... who knows, you might even believe it if you keep saying it over and over again.

[Nlighten1]

36. What are you talking about?

Please explain this line...

"What has been proven to have happened in Abu Graib, not what has been gossiped and assumed, isn't anywhere close to this."

By "this" do you mean the kidnapping?

[TahitiNut]

84. He's not a kidnap victim.

He's a "detainee." (Isn't that what we call them?) :eyes:

[freetobegay]

19. No need to clrify your point bluestateguy

Anyone with half a brain already knew what you meant. Also I agree with you 100%

[Algomas]

23. What if we were the ones...

being occupied? What if we were the ones living in a country controlled by a mafia (Saudi royal family) supported by a foreign power.
Until we in the West agree to share the wealth, conflict will only increase. What would you do if you were in their shoes?

[FudgeOff]

24. I have yet to see one poster here on DU condone the abuse

and I have yet to see anyone other than right wing radicals condone the abuse. We are facing this issue head on....it's on the news all of the time....it's in the newspapers all of the time....and the rest of the world knows what went on in that prison and they know that Americans DO NOT support or make excuses for the abuse. So when terrorists like Al Quaeda threaten to kill yet another American, how come noone is as outraged as they were with the prison abuse scandel?

[Kipepeo]

29. have you been following the news?

Maybe it is because our goverment alleges that during war times we are not bound by anti-torture principles, and Ashcroft refuses to hand over any of the memos regarding torture (refuses illegally).

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5165156/

http://www.marinij.com/Stories/0,1413,234~24410~2199760,00.html

Maybe it's also because our government claims that the Geneva Conventions don't apply to "detainees" in Guantanamo Bay.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aJ2s2I5LZ690&refer=top_world_news

[FudgeOff]

30. I try not to watch the news.....

Maybe because we shouldn't be anti-torture during war time. It's not just the U.S. who uses torture to extract information either....everyone does it. I'm not saying beating on a human being is the answer, but I could see how sleep deprivation methods would be useful in getting information out of a prisoner....especially if it helps to save the lives of our American brothers and sisters over in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How do you feel about the rape of prisoners during war time? There's a reason I'm asking you this question, so please don't take offense to it.

[Kipepeo]

31. I don't "watch" the news either

But I Follow it so that I know what's going on in the world.

I don't think we should condone torture of any kind...and condoning torture during war time only weakens us as a nation and puts our troops in even more danger.

I don't understand your question about rape. Certainly you can't be asking if I approve of rape? Rape is torture, whether it's during war-time or not.

[FudgeOff]

33. I know you don't approve of rape....

but that is exactly what happened to Jessica Lynch. She was raped and thankfully she doesn't remember it, but the doctors who treated her are certain of it. I asked you that question because I didn't see any outrage of this at all....Not even from the NOW organization. It blew my mind that this young American woman was raped and no one really thought twice about it....but do you remember the outrage when American soldiers were accused of raping Iraqi women? Granted they were only accusations, but for some, that is as good if not better than the truth.

I guess I just get tired of seeing our country get blamed for things we never did. I get tired of everyone dumping on the Americans because all in all, most of us are good people with big hearts. I get tired of seeing all of our dirty laundry aired out for the world to see, but the world doesn't take notice when we are doing good things.

I'm ranting here...sorry about that.

[Just Me]

38. There was no medical proof of your allegation,...zero. n/t

[FudgeOff]

41. Really?

I heard Jessica Lynch herself speak of this incident. She says she doesn't remember it but her doctors are certain it happened. For her sake, I'm glad she has no memory of it.

[lolly]

47. How so?

I never saw this interview; find a link or a citation, please.

How do you diagnose rape weeks after the fact?

I'm not saying there's no possibility that it happened; there just isn't any evidence, and Lynch herself doesn't make that claim.

The story began as an assumption--of course those sex-crazed lunatics must've raped her; that's what those people do--and was never proven.

But returning to the original idea--how does torturing and abusing prisoners who weren't anywhere near Jessica Lynch help our case or help her?

[FudgeOff]

52. I watched the interview of Jessica Lynch

and if I remember correctly, her doctors knew immediately that she had been raped anally. She was in pretty rough shape when she finally made it to an American hospital. The doctors (of course) gave her a thorough examination and they knew without a doubt that she had been raped.

This poor girl does have permanent damage as well due to the rape. I do believe it was Diane Sawyer who interviewed Jessica Lynch.

I'm not using what happened to Jessica Lynch as an excuse for the torture of Iraqi prisoners....I'm just simply pointing out that no one was as outraged about Jessica's rape as they were about the prison scandal.

The doctors also believe that Jessica will probably never remember what happened to her....and I'm really glad about that.

[thebigidea]

54. even FOX News isn't peddling that bullshit these days...

you might want to hit REFRESH on your talking points.

Even if she WAS raped - well, what's the big deal? They were just blowing off steam. A few bad apples.

[FudgeOff]

56. Did I read you right?

Even if she WAS raped - well, what's the big deal? They were just blowing off steam. A few bad apples.?

Are you serious?

[thebigidea]

57. It was intended to be taken as seriously as your nonsense

That is to say, not at all.

[FudgeOff]

58. geez

Oh....so any opinion that is different from yours is nonsense. Thanks alot.

[thebigidea]

60. No, just those opinions based on antiquated propaganda

The "Jessica Lynch Was Raped!" crap is so 2003. You really need to get with the program.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

64. You might as well start yammering about WMD being moved to Syria

or Hussein supporting Al-Qaeda.

[FudgeOff]

65. No need...

You already did.

[thebigidea]

69. the "I know you are but what am I" school of wit, I see.

Well, seeing as you can't possibly back up any of your asanine claims with a shred of evidence, I can see why you'd resort to pathetic one-liners.

[FudgeOff]

74. Let me explain something biggie

I'm new on the computer and I'm really new to this website. I've been reading what's going on here for a few days before I jumped in, and now I'm sorry I did. Thanks for making a new comer feel welcome and I will try to avoid any contact with you in the future.

Sorry folks for ruining whatever it is I ruined with my "pathetic one-liners"!

Good night

[Magleetis]

76. See ya eom

[thebigidea]

78. I had no idea I was part of the welcoming committee

so how do you welcome people that call you empty-headed fools and ask if you were abused as a child?

Do you serve them some pound cake and coffee?

[saigon68]

102. You serve them Kool Aid

And wish them a "very" good day

[saigon68]

96. ADIOS

How pray tell did you stumble in here?

[FudgeOff]

98. Am I doing something wrong?

I don't understand why people are being hostile? I in no way mean to offend anyone on this site.

[thebigidea]

99. so "empty headed fool" is a term of endearment?

[FudgeOff]

103. You weren't exactly friendly from the beginning

I took it with a grain of salt from the beginning, but you got nasty and I had enough of it. I'm not here to fight....just to learn and read up on the going's on....that's all.

[thebigidea]

105. Apparently, you've got lots of learning to do. Might want to do that.

I got nasty? Not once did I attack you personally.

I suppose when the facts aren't on your side, there's not much you CAN do but flail around pathetically and start calling people names.

Good luck with that, it'll take you far in life.

[FudgeOff]

107. If I am so beneath you....then why in the hell are you even bothering

with me?

[thebigidea]

110. Torture apologists sicken me.

[saigon68]

104. Not how I see it

Welcome to DU by the way--- I don't think you'll be here very long however.

[FudgeOff]

108. Thanks ---and I hope you are wrong.

[NickB79]

88. Were these the same doctors

Who at first said she was shot repeatedly, then said those were actually stab wounds, then fell back to saying they were wounds caused by her vehicle rolling over and not from enemy forces? If a group of doctors can't differentiate between gunshot wounds, stab wounds, and vehicle-inflicted wounds, how the hell do you expect anyone to believe them when they say she was raped?

[FudgeOff]

93. Doctors?

I thought it was the government itself telling everyone that she had been shot, then stabbed and so and so on. In fact, not alot was known about how Jessica got hurt for quite some time....so it wasn't the doctors who were spreading these rumors.

[NickB79]

112. Yes, it was doctors

The media mentioned the initial medical reports stating she had such-and-such wounds inflicted, which were signed off by doctors caring for her. Most likely, the doctors could tell the difference between the types of wounds, and were simply bullied to give a report favorable to the propaganda spin put on Lynch. That makes it likely that the rape reports were also done as a propaganda tool, using the same doctors that complied the first time around.

[lolly]

45. ???

Good lord, didn't you read any of the "Jessica Lynch" stories beyond the first breathless news releases?

Jessica Lynch was treated for her injuries; her captors tried to return her; the nurses treating her scrounged around to try to get extra food for her. This is from her own account, which you choose not to believe because it doesn't fit with your "all them a-rabs are evil-doers" world view.

Some Arabs, of course, are evil-doers. We should put our efforts into stopping their evil.

The torture at Abu-Ghrarab didn't bring us any closer to stopping that evil; if anything, it inspired more. The treatement of the 4 mercenaries may well have been intended as revenge.

Furthermore, if it was just "a few bad apples," why did AWOL get his lawyers to write up memos finding ways to justify torture? Why are all these soldiers coming out and saying they were told to do whatever necessary to "soften up" the prisoners?

And what do you make of the Red Cross's claim that 79-90% of those imprisoned were there "by mistake?"

[FudgeOff]

53. So what you're saying is

that if Jessica doesn't remember the rape, then it's no big deal? Is this what you are saying?

[stickdog]

82. Your funny. (nt)

[Kipepeo]

46. reply

I disagree that there has been more focus on the prison abuse scandal than on atrocities commited against Americans. Think of how many things never make it to the mainstream consciousness in this country (and this wasn't intended to either).

There is a great quote from MLK (I'm paraphrasing here so forgive me) that says: 'I criticize America because I love her and want her to stand as a moral example to the world.'

I hold my country to higher standards and in higher regard, just like I hold myself to higher standards. The abuses that are done in my name hurt me in a way that is different than abuses done against me and mine. Does that make sense? I am not ranking atrocities with that statement.

I don't mind your ranting.

[FudgeOff]

55. Your sweet

MLK was a great man for all people and he did say some very remarkable things didn't he.

The abuse done in our names was rotten but people like you and I were not going to allow it to be hidden were we? No, we spoke up and that says alot about us as human beings.

I had even heard that some Iraqi's were fed up with the attention the prison scandal got. They were pleased that we did something about it and now they need us to continue moving forward so we can get every last American home.

By the way....nice to meet you.

[thebigidea]

59. what total excrement!

"I had even heard that some Iraqi's were fed up with the attention the prison scandal got."

uh huh. Who did you hear that from? The little pixies that live in your skull?

Did they sound like Brit Hume?

[FudgeOff]

61. Damn

Shouldn't you be polishing your knife collection or something?

[thebigidea]

66. so, what's the source for your deeply held belief that Iraqis are Inhofe-y

are you seriously trying to tell us that the Iraqi people are more outraged at the outrage over the torture?

Seriously?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

72. and who would these people be, exactly?

Is this just a vague feeling you have, or are there any facts at all to back up your point?

Please fill my empty head with your wisdom - for lo, I am putty - ready to be shaped by your hands.

"Tell me, were you abused as a child?"

Hysterical! You're a real prize. Keep up the good work.

[jukes]

91. everybody

had enough of Fudgeboy?

ding...ding...HELLO, MOD?

[jukes]

89. FO

can you tell me of ANY period w/in living memory we WEREN'T at war w/ someone? by your argument, we need to teach torture to all our military personnel, 'cause it's official policy.

ever beat a man senseless? i've never liked myself afterwards, & it's ALWAYS been legally & morally justifiable. still felt like shit.

i can't even describe the self-loathing @ killing another man/woman. thank yahweh i've never had to do that w/ my hands. few will admit it, but part of the hideous self-loathing you live w/for years afterward stems from that little reptilian part of you that fucking LIKES it.

DO NOT advocate turning our youth into monsters. or if you must, go join KBR & get paid 120000 shekels for joining the orgy.

and don't cop out on just "sleep deprivation", how do you think they keep them awake? you put a guy in a stress position, he gets tired & sits down: what do you do? there's only one valid answer, and i don't want this country to be responsible for what happens next in that scenario..

[FudgeOff]

97. ???

Let me ask you something.....what would you do to prevent another attack on American soil? What if you knew that a person in your custody had vital information about another attack on American soil, and this person wasn't going to tell you anything. Would you allow this person to go without sleep in order to prevent another 9/11?

Why are you so hostile?

[thebigidea]

101. Would you rape a 15 year old to prevent 9/11?

Another question would be: what the fuck does 9/11 have to do with torturing people in Iraq?

[FudgeOff]

106. What is it with you? Can't we debate without the filth coming out

of your mouth?

[thebigidea]

109. Well? Is the rape of children justified if it prevents a 9/11?

How about if the rapist THINKS it might prevent a 9/11, but it doesn't. Is rape still ok?

Just wondering how far your justifications go. Surely "sleep deprivation" alone won't crack a tough terrorist... as Rummy said, we have to take the gloves off.

Electric shock?
Flashlights in the ass?
Dogs sicced on naked men?

[Forkboy]

116. "Maybe because we shouldn't be anti-torture during war time."

Fudge off buddy.

[Magleetis]

67. Why is it

ok for us to kill innocent Iraqi civilians?

[FudgeOff]

70. I never said it was

[Magleetis]

75. You are outraged by

the killing of one American. Are you also outraged by the indiscriminate killing of Iraqi civilians by the US?

[FudgeOff]

77. Yes of course

[Just Me]

37. War crimes involve nations, not criminals,...

,...and this is the most disgusting political manipulative game,...ever!!!

But,...whatever,...

[James T. Kirk]

35. These terrorists make me sick!

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I can't read Arabic, but I can tell their web site is a freak show.

http://www.hostinganime.com/sout18/index.htm

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Just Me]

43. It is not an "Arab" site,...it is an individual/group site,...

,...just like all those vastly weird freakin' sites produced by other wacko human beings (including "Christian", "American", and other "compassionate" human beings).

[James T. Kirk]

73. Huh?

I said it was in Arabic language. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[OilemFirchen]

42. Whois... again

06/15/04 21:58:50 IP block 66.98.141.123
Trying 66.98.141.123 at ARIN
Trying 66.98.141 at ARIN

OrgName: Everyones Internet, Inc.
OrgID: EVRY
Address: 2600 Southwest Freeway
Address: Suite 500
City: Houston
StateProv: TX
PostalCode: 77098
Country: US

NetRange: 66.98.128.0 - 66.98.255.255
CIDR: 66.98.128.0/17
NetName: EVRY-BLK-14
NetHandle: NET-66-98-128-0-1
Parent: NET-66-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NS1.EV1.NET
NameServer: NS2.EV1.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 2003-07-02
Updated: 2004-02-06

TechHandle: RW172-ARIN
TechName: Williams, Randy
TechPhone: [phone]
TechEmail: [e-mail]

OrgAbuseHandle: ABUSE477-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: ABUSE
OrgAbusePhone: [phone]
OrgAbuseEmail: [e-mail]

OrgNOCHandle: NOC1445-ARIN
OrgNOCName: NOC
OrgNOCPhone: [phone]
OrgNOCEmail: [e-mail]

OrgTechHandle: RW172-ARIN
OrgTechName: Williams, Randy
OrgTechPhone: [phone]
OrgTechEmail: [e-mail]

OrgTechHandle: VST3-ARIN
OrgTechName: Stinson, Valarie
OrgTechPhone: [phone]
OrgTechEmail: [e-mail]

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2004-06-14 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

[seemslikeadream]

44. If anyone would like to read news of Paul Johnson

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=620455&mesg_id=620455

[jukes]

92. Not a bad run

for a newbie. i've never had a thread this good.


big welcome, dog.


:bounce: