The Return Of Pete Rose.

[andyjackson1828]

http://premium.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2194

[LoneStarLiberal]

1. I Read the Same

But I can't find one single other confirmation anywhere right now (10:00AM CST).

Baseball Prospectus is pretty darn reliable and I don't see anything that would single this out as a joke.

Hmmm...

[chiburb]

2. The actual headline is...

The Return Of Pete Rose. You should use it in LBN posts..

[Shadder]

3. YAHOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

About damn time that this has been corrected and Pete Rose can take his well deserved spot in the Hall of Fame!

Just when you think that it's impossible, Baseball goes and does something right.

[theHandpuppet]

4. About damn time, too!

Welcome back, Charley Hustle!!

[nixonwasbetterthanW]

5. yahoo? about time?

Pete Rose disgraces the game. The evidence is overwhelming that he bet on baseball. Read . Why would he have agreed to the lifetime ban had the evidence not been there?

[malachi]

8. A rose by any other name is still a disgrace

I actually downloaded the Dowd report from the internet a few years ago and read most of the info. He bet on baseball and more specifically on the Reds. His ego is as large as his brain is small; all he had to do was admit what he did and he would have been reinstated years ago. Don't get me wrong, as a Phillies fan I really am aware of and appreciate Rose's contribution to helping the Phillies win their only World Series in their 120 sad ass years of existence. And I admire his style of play. I just don't think that he is what baseball needs now.

[StandWatie]

26. he bet on the reds..

there is a huge difference between betting on your team to win and betting on your team to lose.

[Guaranteed]

35. Betting at all is a bad idea....

....at least making large wagers, like he was, when you're in the position that he was in. If you lose a few times and go down 50 grand or more (or less), your integrity can be compromised.
So it's even a bad idea to bet on football or basketball- again, at least in such large amounts.

[theHandpuppet]

47. Gee...

Funny no one has so condemned Michael Jordan for the MILLIONS he has bet on professional sporting events.

[Uzybone]

49. No proof

that he ever bet on the NBA. Let alone his own games. Let alone games he was managing.

[theHandpuppet]

54. Oh yeah...

Jackson's a real saint compared to Rose (sarcasm alert)

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id1635/pg1/

http://new.blackvoices.com/sports/nationworld/bv-sports-jordan021127,0,5077573.story?coll=bv-sports-topstories

[Uzybone]

55. yeah, Like i called Jordan a saint....

and still no proof he gambled on the NBA, let alone games he played in. let alone games he managed. Jordan was/is a gambler and a philanderer. That still doesnt mean Pete Rose and his lies and denials belong back in baseball.

[bookman]

57. No betting

Betting on your team is just wrong.

Think of the things a manager can do to win agame.

Holding back a pitcher or player before that game, using a reliever too long so he's unavailable for later games, and if he does nothing like that but just loses and loses then he "owes" somebody something and....

Rose was wrong.

He should not be allowed in baseball. As for the HOF, he's not one of my favorites, but if Shoeless Joe gets in with him, maybe.

[Bake]

27. The Dowd Report is a prosecutor's brief

It's like only listening to one side of the case, as if there were no defense whatsoever. Those of us who believe in due process would get a little peeved if a criminal defendant didn't get to present his side of the case. Wait a minute, that COULD happen with the military tribunals. So accused terrorists are entitled to more due process than Pete?

I say, let him back in. Hell, if Sammy Sosa only gets a short suspension for playing with a corked bat, which makes suspect every last home run he ever hit, and if Barry Bonds can break Aaron's record (assuming he does it; he's closing in on Willie Mays now) with his steroid-pumped physique, hell, let Pete back in. Sosa and Bonds are nothing but big fat cheaters (which breaks my heart because I loved Sosa during the McGwire/Sosa historic chase of Maris' record). Nobody ever accused Pete of CHEATING. I don't give a damn about "the one sacred rule of baseball." I think corked bats and steroids ought to be cause for banning from baseball. They certainly bring disrepute upon the game and bring questions about the Sacred Records of The Game.

Just my $0.02.

Bake

[chiburb]

31. From #23:

(For those who have been living in a cave since 1989, Pete Rose -- Charlie Hustle, Mr. Competitive -- voluntarily accepted the maximum punishment baseball could mete out rather than face a disciplinary hearing at which the evidence against him would be made public and the weaknesses of his defenses exposed. He then spent 14 years whining about how unfair it is that he has been barred from the game he loved when he never did anything wrong. Ask any defense attorney how many truly innocent people, acting with the advice of competent attorneys, plead guilty and accept the maximum sentence.)

[Bake]

34. Except that he didn't expect the max sentence

He expected to be allowed to apply for reinstatement within, I think it was, 5 years. Giamatti died, and Fay Vincent changed the rules to prevent him from applying for reinstatement.

This has been well-documented and talked to death on ESPN all summer.

With buzz like that, I expect this story to be true sooner or later, even though MLB is denying it at the moment.

Bake

[theHandpuppet]

48. Ditto!

You said it, Bake!

[Uzybone]

50. Sosa has as many HRs

as Bonds since the cork incident. In other words, he is hitting more homers since they found cork. So anyone who really thinks all the homers he hit before were suspect is in la-la land. Bonds and McGwire (remember him when you speak of steroids, we KNOW he used em) used substances that are not illegal under baseball rules, so whats the problem. Comparing those guys to a guy who fixed numerous games and bet on many others is nonsense.

[ProfessorGAC]

42. I'm With You

Another note: Back when he was in his prime, Rose was known to be openly derogatory about players he felt were below average. He made fun of folks with .230, and .240 averages.

But, when he was in pursuit of Cobb's record, and was the player-manager of the teams he was on, he thought nothing of penciling in his name onto the line-up card, despite the fact that he was hitting 50, or 70 points below his own lifetime average.

I think the hits record is WAY overrated in his case. Look at how many more at-bats he needed to get to Cobb. The difference in batting average, on-base percentage, runs scored, etc. is PROFOUND.

Make some other manager decide if he should be in the line-up often enough to approach the record, and i'd surmise he would never have gotten near, let alone past, Cobb.

So, he not only disgraced baseball by betting, but also by undermining his own team in the pursuit of a record achieved long after his skills warranted his position in the line-up.
The Professor

[maxsolomon]

17. about a third of baseball players disgrace the game in some way

through substance abuse, womanizing, greed, rascism, or just plain half-assed playing.

i am from cincy & pete was in his prime in my youth, so i admit i'm biased, but i could give a shite about betting on the game. did he THROW a game to win a bet? prove it, or let him in.

just because he's flawed doesn't mean he shouldn't get in. ty cobb is in there, and assholes thought he was an asshole.

put "bet on baseball" on his plaque if you're so uptight.

[nixonwasbetterthanW]

25. fine, but then let's get rid of the commissioner's office too

It's not a matter of being uptight. It's a matter of following the rules. He saw the rule on gambling every time he walked into a dugout, a good 4,000 or so times as player and manager. It says you're banned if you bet. Period. He also agreed to the lifetime ban. He knew what is was when he signed it.

And it doesn't matter whether he bet FOR or AGAINST his own team. Even if he bet FOR the Reds, that seriously compromises the game. Remember that in a 162-game schedule, every game counts, so you can, for instance, save relief arms for the long haul if you're up by two runs in the 8th inning by keeping your starter in and taking your chances. But when you're betting a LOT of money, there's only ONE game that counts, the one you've wagered on, so you'll do everything to win that one game, even if it means sacrificing arms for the long haul. And Dowd had evidence that Rose bet FOR the Reds to win.

[LynneSin]

53. Yeah, but all those Drug addicts and Wife beaters in the Hall of Fame

is the real disgrace.

I am the biggest fan of the Cincinnati Reds and was a big Pete Rose fan. I can't wait for him to get into the Hall of Fame!!!!

[Serial Mom]

19. Hustle?!?!?

he hustled for one reason - if you remember correctly, this man admitted to taking amphetimines (sp?) daily - and admitting to taking them just before a game and sometimes during a game. THAT is why he hustled!

And drugs are not the worst this guy did - betting on baseball (especially as a manager) is worse than doing drugs cause he can affect the outcome of the game by who he pitched, who he sent to bat, what signs and strategy he used on base running etc.

It is just wrong!

[MrBenchley]

6. Appalling

Odds are good that the turd will be named manager of the Reds...and there goes any pretence that the National League Central gets an honest pennant race.

[Bake]

30. How exactly does that mean the NL Central is screwed?

Or that there is no longer any fair pennant race in the NL Central? Hell, the Reds haven't been in contention past the All-Star break in years!

Bake

[MrBenchley]

45. You don't think he'll go in the tank

if he sees a way to make money?

For that matter, how'd you like to be the Phillies with a crucial game late in the season and a 1/2 game lead, when the Marlins, who are that half game back, play the Reds? If Pete bet on the Marlins, he'll do what he can to help THEM win.

The entire National League is in doubt.

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. What he did

Hell, I never even liked him. He was a jerk.

However, he was a great baseball player and I respect his skills and achievements. THEY should be in the Hall. What happens to him, I could care less.

[OrdinaryTa]

11. Rose's Mafia Connection

Rose owed big money to the Mafia. His bets weren't small-time bets among friends; he placed them with bookies employed by organized crime. These people are ruthless, and their bosses are even more ruthless. They wouldn't hesitate to destroy baseball.

Rose ought to be asterisked into the Hall of Fame after he dies. Until then, he doesn't belong anywhere near professional baseball.

[trogdor]

16. They ARE in the Hall.

Took Mom there this past May. For somebody who has been banned for life from the game, there sure are a lot of pictures of him in Cooperstown. You all should come up sometime.

[theHandpuppet]

51. This is one of those rare instances...

... when I agree with you, Muddle. I've been a rabid Reds fan since I was a toddler yet even I thought Rose was a total jerk. Nevertheless, players don't get elected to the hall for being Mr Nice Guy, they get elected for their play. If every asshole whose plaque graces that hall were removed tomorrow that shrine would look as if it had been looted and Rose would never have to worry about Ty Cobb's record because Cobb was the biggest jerk of all time!

Love him or hate him, Rose was one of the GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME. To deny his contributions to the game while turing a blind eye to the records being smashed by the steroid-riddled freaks of today is nothing short of hypocrisy. As if drugs and steroids haven't effected the so-called integrity and sanctity of the game.... SHEESH!!

[Braden]

9. I've heard an MLB denial on the radio

they say it is "totally false irresponsible journalism" on their press release on the radio.

So it must be true.

[chiburb]

10. Disgusting...

If violating THE cardinal sin of Baseball doesn't warrant a lifetime ban, what does? I know there are drunks, druggies, wife beaters, etc. in the HOF, but to my knowledge there are NO players who bet on baseball. Certainly none that were caught.
It would be bad enough to let Rose into the HOF, it would be a crime to let him back in the game.

Donning my asbestos suit for the anticipated VolcanoJen reply...

[OrdinaryTa]

14. Way Too Risky

it would be a crime to let him back in the game

Pete Rose is more than just an average jerk, he's an especially dangerous jerk - one who threatens the game itself. There are lots of assholes in baseball - guys like Len Dykstra and Darrel Strawberry. These guys have nothing going for them except the ability to hit major league pitching.

Were it not for MLB's very strict rules against gambling, it would be easy for organized crime to take advantage of a ballplayer's stupidity. Pete Rose may have a lot of appealing qualities, but risking corruption would be the end of baseball. Bart Giamatti did the right thing.

[Loonman]

12. Ahhhh, baseball

Every 30 years, something interesting happens.

[MaineDem]

13. He's a disgrace

Just my opinion, of course, but what he did is unexcusable. There's too much looking the other way in sports as it is.

[Emboldened Chimp]

15. He deserves to get into the Hall

The man has the most hits in baseball history, for Pete's sake. True, he gambled and deserves punishment for it. However, I believe he's paid his price in full over the years. Let him in! Besides, there have been bigger, more dangerous jerks to get inducted. Ty Cobb, anybody?

[Guaranteed]

36. LOL SERIOUSLY...Cobb! n/t

[Emboldened Chimp]

56. Yeah, Cobb

He was a bastard, used to slide into base with his spikes at stomach level. And they were METAL back then. The guy was the biggest jerk to ever play to game. But he was a great player.

[Guaranteed]

37. A hit in 14 straight at bats....

Helluva record, there. Up there with DiMaggio.

[Randi_Listener]

18. MLB is a turd.

With the state that baseball is in these days, they should welcome Charlie Hustle back with open arms. No one really gives to craps about baseball now anyway.

[displacedvermoter]

20. I do

give a number of turds about baseball. Baseball is an important part of my life, has been for most of my life. Rose getting reinstated, and then very likley getting named reds manager, is another black eye.

[xJlM]

22. I used to

Pete Rose was a part of the Big Red Machine, and so was a part of my childhood. I'm not saying what he did was right, but I don't see that much problem with a guy betting on his team (as long as he's betting for them to win). This doesn't at all compare to the Black Sox scandal of 1919.

I turned off baseball a few years back when they struck and ended the season. I can't see paying that kind of money for someone playing a fucking game. I have no use for football whatsoever.

[mac56]

40. I'm with you on all counts, dv.

nm

[R Hickey]

21. Rose is writing a book with Bill Bennet called "Baseball's Virtues"

They are betting it will be on the top of the best seller list, since Richard Mellon Scafee is secretly buying a million copies.

The pair had previously hoped to head up a casino for terror-commodity-futures, which was intended to bet on disasters such as 9/11.

[malachi]

24. Rose is writing a book with Bill Bennet called "Baseball's Virtues

Very Funny. Thanks.

[chiburb]

23. Great perspective here:

Snip:

(For those who have been living in a cave since 1989, Pete Rose -- Charlie Hustle, Mr. Competitive -- voluntarily accepted the maximum punishment baseball could mete out rather than face a disciplinary hearing at which the evidence against him would be made public and the weaknesses of his defenses exposed. He then spent 14 years whining about how unfair it is that he has been barred from the game he loved when he never did anything wrong. Ask any defense attorney how many truly innocent people, acting with the advice of competent attorneys, plead guilty and accept the maximum sentence.)

If this report is true, Bud Selig should be taken out and shot. The one truly principled action of his entire Commissionership, refusing to yield to public pressure on an issue central to the integrity of the game, is thrown out the window for no reason at all except Bud's desire to be popular, without even a requirement that Rose admit what he did. In the words of Mojo Nixon, "Bud, I wouldn't piss in your mouth if your stomach were on fire."

Read more here:
http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseball/bbblog.htm

[Calm Like A Bomb]

28. espn: Report called 'unfounded' and 'irresponsible'

Not so fast...

espn story

Major League Baseball's chief operating officer, Bob DuPuy, shot down a Baseball Prospectus report Tuesday that claimed Pete Rose already has signed an agreement to be reinstated in 2004, calling it "totally unfounded, totally unsubstantiated" and "journalistically irresponsible."

DuPuy, who spoke to ESPN.com's Jayson Stark, said there has been "no decision, no agreement, no nothing" clearing the way for Rose to return to the game next year.

Baseball Prospectus, in a statement in response to DuPuy's denial, stood by its story, saying the report "was compiled using reliable sources. We believe that, in the end, our report will be found to be accurate."

A number of different sources familiar with Rose's situation have told Stark in recent days that Rose's case will become a top priority for commissioner Bud Selig right after the World Series. And indications are that, barring some unforeseen development, Rose could be reinstated before Thanksgiving.

<snip>

[Bake]

29. Sure, Pete's an *sshole

But baseball is full of *ssholes. Barry Bonds? Asshole. George Steinbrenner? Big time asshole. The list is too numerous ...

One thing is certain. Pete used to be a lousy manager. He may still be a lousy manager, particularly since he's been away from the game for so long. But he will definitely put butts in the stands in Cincinnati and elsewhere. Look at the excitement and ovation he prompted at the All-Star Game in Atlanta a couple of years ago. Baseball could certainly use that these days.

The whole gambling thing is a major problem with all sports. Suppose a player, or a manager, gets in deep with the "wrong people" by gambling on another sport entirely. They tell him he can wipe the slate clean by manipulating the results of the game in which he **is** involved, and on which They have wagered large sums. I don't see any difference between that scenario and one in which the player/manager bets on his own team and/or game.

Bake

[Goldust]

32. No way!

The man not only gambled on his own sport, he did so while manager of his own team. He was a great player, but he impugned baseball's honor and should have no place in the Hall of Fame.

Same goes for any player caught using performance-enhancing drugs, even if it means clearing out half the Hall.

[chiburb]

33. As long as we don't throw out...

Those who used performance REDUCING drugs (like alcohol & coke)!
:-)

[kentuck]

38. Aw...c'mon !

People commit murder and can get out of prison in 5 or 6 yrs. Pete has served his time. He did a lot for baseball. I remember that he was my favorite player as a kid and I remember how slow baseball was without Pete Rose. For example, when a player got a walk to first base, that is literally what he did, in the most casual manner. Pete hustled to first base. And when he slid into second, he would do it headfirst if necessary. He gave a lot to baseball. He shouldn't be condemned forever. Just my opinion.

[Uzybone]

52. Pet peeve

Ive never understood why anyone admires a player for running full speed to first base afer getting a walk. It makes no sense, proves nothing, doesnt speed up the game, its nothing but "hey look at me, Im a hustla!!"

[Gman]

39. What about Shoeless Joe Jackson????

If they allow Rose back, they MUST bring Shoeless Joe Jackson back. Jackson was merely guilty by association whereas there was hard evidence that Rose gambled.

No justice is done without bringing back Shoeless Joe Jackson.

[Guaranteed]

41. Two letters....OJ n/t

[VolcanoJen]

43. Here's MLB's denial:

http://www.wkrc.com/sports/mlb/story.aspx?content_id=1A28ACED-FC24-4836-9A5E-8B948D93AEA8

Excerpt:

According to the Internet report by Baseball Prospectus, Rose signed an agreement following a series of preseason meetings between him, Hall of Fame third baseman Mike Schmidt and at different times representatives of Major League Baseball, including DuPuy and commissioner Bud Selig.

"The story that appeared on the Baseball Prospectus website today regarding the return of Pete Rose to baseball in 2004 and the alleged written agreement that had been reached by Rose and Commissioner Selig is unsubstantiated and totally unfounded," DuPuy said in the statement released Tuesday. "The report is wholly inaccurate."

As a Cincinnatian and Reds SuperFan, I think it's time to let the greatest hitter in baseball back into the fold. He did the crime, served the time and I think it's a joke that he's not back yet.

- Jennifer

[VolcanoJen]

44. And here's Salon's interview with the writer of the original story.

http://www.salon.com/news/sports/col/kaufman/2003/08/12/tuesday/index.html

He claims his source is deep inside the Reds organization. The media here in Cincinnati leaked late last week that the Reds owner, Carl Lindner, is pushing for Rose to be the Reds manager in '04.

Excerpt:



Who are your sources? I know you can't name names.

I've got a source in Cincinnati, in the Reds organization, a source in the MLB offices and an independent outside-baseball source. We've been following this one since about Saturday. And then when Pete Rose said he had a deal in place, kind of hinted at it in "Sunday Night Conversation" on ESPN, we really went after it whole hog.

When is this deal going to go down?

The deal is already signed. It evidently was signed back in November.

What have they been waiting for?

They're not going to announce it, supposedly -- this was the original plan -- until after the World Series, before the winter meetings, sometime in that time frame. You figure they'd try to avoid the major awards. When Selig, Schmidt and Rose met in Chicago in November, everything was pretty much set. There was a later meeting between Rose, Warren Green, his agent, and Bob DuPuy, and evidently that's where the agreement was put down on paper.

[Uzybone]

46. Put him in the Hall

but keep him banned from baseball. The guy is a conigental liar, he cant tell the truth if his life depended on it.

[trapper914]

58. I second the motion

Anything Pete did PRIOR to the betting allegations can not be ignored, but he should never be allowed in a dugout again.