New Abuse Charges (Classified sections of Taguba report)

[PfcHammer]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040628-655389,00.html

New Abuse Charges
Classified sections of the military's prisoner abuse report detail sexual assaults on women detainees

By VIVECA NOVAK AND DOUGLAS WALLER
Sunday, Jun. 20, 2004

Could the abuse of prisoners in Iraq have gone beyond the beatings and sexual humiliation already alleged? Unreleased, classified parts of the report on prison abuse from Major General Anthony Taguba, which were read to TIME, contain indications of mistreatment of female prisoners. In a Feb. 21 statement to Taguba, Lieut. Colonel Steven L. Jordan, former head of the Abu Ghraib interrogation center, said he had received reports "that there were members of the MI community that had come over and done a late-night interrogation of two female detainees" last October. According to a statement by Jordan's boss, Colonel Thomas Pappas, three interrogators were later cited for violations of military law in their handling of the two females, ages 17 and 18. Senate Armed Services Committee investigators are probing whether the two women were sexually abused. The Pentagon declined to comment.

...

One plaintiff, identified only as Neisef, claims that after he was taken from his home on the outskirts of Baghdad last November and sent to Abu Ghraib, Americans made him disrobe and attached electrical wires to his genitals. He claims he was shocked three times. Although a vein in his penis ruptured and he had blood in his urine, he says, he was refused medical attention. In another session, Neisef claims, he was held down by two men while a uniformed woman forced him to have sex with her. "I was crying," said Neisef, 28. "I felt like my whole manhood was gone." The class action also claims that detainees were raped in prison. On June 6, Neisef was released, after a U.S. civilian told him, he says, that he had been wrongly accused by informants. A U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad confirms that a prisoner with Neisef's ID number was released on that date, and TIME has obtained a copy of his release order. But the Pentagon would not comment on the specifics of Neisef's account.

[ClassWarrior]

1. We need photos and footage to get this out.

Sad to say, but true.

[Rose Siding]

2. Yeah, Time is reporting this like it's a question!

"Could the abuse of prisoners in Iraq have gone beyond the beatings...?"

The Senators who saw the photos came out and said it went as far as rape and murder! WHY is this article written as though it isn't already known?

[disinfo_guy]

7. All Senators saw the evidence - yet are NOT saying anything

Even conservative Republicans were calling it "rape and murder" but they ALL agreed to cover up the evidence - AND to allow the Republicans to continue to lie about what happened and cover up "Copper Green".

If Rumsfeld had resigned, they could perhaps make some sort of argument about not releasing the evidence. But helping to covering up evidence, and the continue the crimes, is collaboration and obstruction of justice.

[lovedems]

4. Yep, it seems to be the only "attention getter" for the American public.

Reading about the images and seeing the images play a totally different role in the psyche, IMHO.

You read about car accidents in the paper all the time but when you drive past one, it effects you totally differently.

[demoman123]

3. I believe the part about the electrical wires, but I don't believe this:

"In another session, Neisef claims, he was held down by two men while a uniformed woman forced him to have sex with her."

[Trajan]

5. Didnt Lyndie England admit to such ? ...

Arent there photos of her having sex with prisoners ? ...

[demoman123]

6. Not that I know of.

She is supposed to have gotten it on with several of the guards.

[Ripley]

8. Why do you pick and choose what to believe?

Is it that you don't think a female can rape a male? Just recently a female school teacher in my area was charged with rape for having sex with a male HS student.

If you've seen these MP women in pictures over the last month, how could you NOT believe they would do that?

[Judi Lynn]

9. Truly! Something was missing in those females which would have

steered them AWAY from vicious, amoral actions. I don't think it's debateable at this point that they were most completely capable of anything destructive and disrespectful.

[demoman123]

10. Well, I pick what's plausible, and reject what's implausible

Even a sadistic little twit like Lyndie would shudder at screwing an Iraqi prisoner. That's what I know about women.

[thebigidea]

12. good thing Taguba did the investigating and not you, eh?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

13. They're probably outraged about the outrage. n/t

[Trajan]

14. Well then ...

You essentially admit you reject this view based on your subjective view of 'what women think', and not on any specific objective evidence related to these specific assertions ....

[luaneryder]

15. I doubt she would

A rapist of any sex gets their jollies by the act of violence and the humiliation of their victim. Good grief, what better way to shame a man of Muslim faith. And face it, violent tendancies aren't limited to men.

[demoman123]

18. I still don't believe it.

And this stuff about "offending men of the Muslim faith" is b.s.
I traveled extensively with a woman in the Middle East, and I could never leave her by herself in any public place. If I did, the men were immediately trying to grope her.

[Ripley]

19. Right. All men everywhere in the ME grope women incessantly...

:eyes: Racist much?

Why don't you just say they should have been so lucky to have a nice white girl hump them?

Forgot to add: What's implausible is the Gropenator being elected Governor of the world's 6th largest economy. But I guess only American women in America lie about gropers.

[demoman123]

26. I am only describing my experience, which puts the lie to the claim....

of general sexual puritanism on the part of Muslim males.

[Dhalgren]

63. Your experience puts the "lie" to nothing.

Because you may or may not have experienced one or another thing has no probative value when discussing separate and unrelated events. No logic there. If a traumatized person is trying to tell what happened to them, they will tend to euphamize, or use broad brush descriptions. "Forced to have sex" could easily be the phrase used to mean the female soldier masterbated him or that he was forced to simulate in some way oral sex on the woman soldier. The fact that some statements might not jibe with your cultural biases does not make the statements, therefore, untrue.

[demoman123]

69. Your reply makes no sense at all

You reject my counter-example as disproof of a generalization, but of course it is. If someone claims that all A's are B's (as was said in post #15) and someone can find an A that is not a B, that refutes the claim. This is an elementary logical rule.

Your go on to waffle on the meaning of "forced to have sex." The Muslim men that cornered and assaulted my girlfriend would have loved to have had the sort of sexual contact you describe. I think your comment is the result of a commitment to a false image of Muslim men.

[Judi Lynn]

72. You're either for "Muslim men" or you're against them!

Looks as if we're being challanged to hate them in order to seem "patriotic!"

Now there's a new one.

Mock Christians really knock me out. Loveable bunch, aren't they?

[demoman123]

73. No, you can be for some Muslim men, and against others

Some of them are nice guys, and were very nice to me and my companion in our travels. I expect that Muslim men are like Christian men. Some are sexually modest, others are not, depending on the way they interpret their beliefs. My point is that the claim in post 15, which is a relatively widespread view, that Muslim men are in general extremely sexually modest, is false.

[Dhalgren]

84. The point is not that they are "sexually modest", as you put it.

The point is that women in Islam have a certain cultural station that makes them different from men. That is why an insult from a woman is taken differently than insult from a man. It isn't the "sex" part that is the big problem, it is the degradation, the humiliation that is the point.
You objection is like the following: It would be humiliating for an American man to be forced to have oral sex with another man. (You would say) "No it isn't, because I knew several American men who liked to have oral sex with other men!" That is the fallacy of your argument.

[demoman123]

86. I think you are misinterpreting post 15.

Perhaps we should ask the author of post 15 what he or she meant.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Funny, I've never heard M.E. men are horny devils.

Maybe you should hang out with a better class of woman!

[Ripley]

22. Hahaha!

Good one. If you even believe he's been to the Middle East. But I guess some people are so ignorant they probably think there's no difference between Spaniards, Norwegians and the French...Hey! They're all Europeans!

[Judi Lynn]

28. Oh, god, I know what you mean!

They're all from "over there" somewhere, clumsily waving arm toward some direction, hopefully East.

[demoman123]

30. It's not a "good one"; it's a childish ad hominem (or ad feminam) attack.

And yes, I have been to the middle east. Calling my veracity into question is also below the belt.

[demoman123]

27. I resent the implication.

My female companion did nothing to provoke these unwanted attempts to grope her. She is just very attractive, and blonde, which is not her fault.

[Judi Lynn]

31. I guess you wouldn't want to divulge

whether or not she's a goer, would you, nudge nudge?


Say no more.

[demoman123]

32. I don't know what you mean.

But I suspect it's some sort of attack on the sexual morality of my girlfriend. I have already said that she did nothing to provoke these unwanted advances. I am offering my personal experience (and hers) as evidence against the received view that Muslim men in general are sexual Puritans. Other women who have travelled in the ME have had the same experience and have related this to me.

I don't think that my contribution to the discussion deserves this sort of gutter level innuendo.

[Judi Lynn]

34. Perhaps you've succumbed to the tragic, devastating habit

of believing you and yours are O.K., and others are not O.K. You have painted a very large group of people as being completely dishonorable and expected us to take your word for this.

I can't wait until a veteran D.U.'er who has traveled there steps forward to share his/her findings.

[demoman123]

38. No, you are mistaken.

I have not "painted a very large group of people as being completely dishonorable." I have given a counter-example to the claim in post #15 that painted Muslim men in general as sexual puritans. There is a huge logical difference.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Is that the way you actually read that post?

Try to review all the things relative to this torture you have heard or read since the photos of Abu Ghraib were published. Try to spend some time actually opening yourself to thought. It won't hurt a bit.

[demoman123]

42. That post said several things. I criticized one of them.

I have not denied that there was torture or sexual abuse. Obviously there was. What I rejected was the claim that Muslim men are, in general, sexually puritanical. My own experience is to the contrary. This seems to come out in the behavior of many of them (though not all) towards Western women in particular. This may be partly the fault of the way women are portrayed in Western films, or it may be because Western women seem exotic to them, or because Western women tend to wear more revealing clothing. But whatever the reason, the behavior is a fact, which I know about of my own knowledge, and which is confirmed in many places, including many of the travel guides I have referred to elsewhere in this thread.

[aneerkoinos]

59. Whats puritanical?

Your whole point is off, puritans live in America, not in ME, where men are mostly macho patriarchists. The boundary is not clear, but these are clearly different things.

Yes, having lived in Jordania for few months I can attest that local men (especially the unruly youth gangs, like everywhere else in the world) can give hard time to women who do not choose to fall under the local dress code, and the women who have grown up in e.g. equalitarian Finland find this very discomforting.

But this has nothing to do with how a male prisoner of any culture, least of all a macho patrarchist, would not feel utterly humiliated by being raped by a woman.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

64. Exactly

Whether or not they were puritanical, or devout Muslim is of no significance to the rape. Rape is about dominance not sex. Having a woman rape them takes away their masculinity, period. Masculinity and the feeling of dominance over women is not just a middle eastern thing either. Machismo is found everywhere including here. However, in the ME it is part of their identity.

Rape is rape pure and simple, regardless if their past sexual behavior. That is why we have rape shield laws here in this country.

[demoman123]

71. Exactly not.

My point was to refute the claim in post #15 that men of the Muslim faith are extremely modest when it comes to sex. In my experience, this is simply false.

I also do not believe that the man was "raped." Although I oppose the US war of aggression in Iraq and elsewhere in West Asia, and I believe the US used torture and sexual humiliation against its prisoners, I do not accept every claim made by anti-US Muslims as true. This one strikes me as false, for reasons I have explained elsewhere.

[Ripley]

80. 15 Does not state that...

It says nothing about extreme modesty within Muslim men...it speaks of rape.

So what again is your disrupting point?

Oops, I forgot to add: What part of the country ME were yall traveling in?

[demoman123]

81. You should re-read post 15, very slowly.

It says, "Good grief, what better way to shame a man of Muslim faith." The implication of Muslim sexual modesty is obvious.

BTW, your accusation of "disruption" is false and has no basis in fact. You should retract it.

[Ripley]

82. I will not.

You are disrupting this thread. This thread is about torture and rape of Iraqi men by American men and women in uniform.

You sidelined it in an effort to broadbrush all Muslim men as being molesting perverts attempting to implicate that none of them could be modest sexually. Your one example of this is lame, especially since you refuse to give evidence of where you saw an Iraqi man behave that way. Do you think your one experience (if true) can justify your claim that Muslim men in Iraq are comfortable with being tied up naked and stacked like firewood and touched by American female MPs?

[demoman123]

87. You are attacking a straw man.

Nowhere did I say that Muslim men are comfortable with being tied up etc.

And since you have suggested, in Post 22, that I was lying about my experience in the ME, I will not answer any further questions from you about them.

BTW, accusing someone of disrupting a thread because you disagree with him is a tactic worthy only of Freepers.

[Ripley]

90. LOL...you're calling ME a freeper?

This whole disrupting sub-thread is because you said you didn't believe the part about a female raping a prisoner. Then you went on to STRONGLY IMPLY that the Iraqi prisoner would enjoy that because you think those people grope females in public "all over the ME."

Puhleeze.

[demoman123]

92. Yes, you have the spirit of a Freeper, though not, perhaps, the politics

I did not "strongly imply" or weakly imply or imply at all that a Muslim man would enjoy being raped. You are reading this misinterpretation into my remarks because you can't seem to focus on what I actually said, which is that it is false to suggest that Muslim men are any more sexually modest than non-Muslim men. I believe this on the basis of my experience, and also on the basis of the many comments in travel guides I have used cautioning Western women about unwanted sexual advances in Muslim countries.

Now Freep on! :)

[demoman123]

70. "Puritanical" is a metaphor for extreme modesty about sex.

My point is that Muslim men are not, in general "puritanical" in this sense. My own experience proves this to my satisfaction, if not to yours.

[Dhalgren]

85. A single example of the opposite of a "general rule"

does not refute the general rule. Have you ever heard the expression "the exception that proves the rule"? It is a ligitimate observation to say that based upon cultural mores, the teaching of the Koran, and the basic attitudes of the people in general, that a man being sexually humiliated, publicly, by a woman would be a terrible thing for a Muslim man. The fact (supposed) that you incountered a couple of Iraqi gropers at some point, somewhere, is completely irrelivant.

[demoman123]

88. "The exception proves the rule" is a mistranslation of a Latin saying....

"Exceptio probat legem," which means the exception TESTS the rule. That is the point of a counter-example--to disprove a general claim by finding an exception to it.

I found many exceptions to the idea in post 15 that Muslim men are especially sexually modest.

[Dhalgren]

89. It is not a "mistranslation".

"Testing" the rule is the same thing. The fact that there is a rule allows there to be exceptions. I hope you can see that. And the poster you refer to never said that "Muslim men are especially sexually modest" - you said that. And now you want to crow about disproving what the poster never said in the first place? Man, get your weak, little pretend victories wherever you can. Put don't try to hide your racism behind thread-bare logic - it won't cut it, here.

[demoman123]

91. It is indeed a mistranslation.

Testing is not the same as proving. "The exception proves the rule" is a ridiculous misunderstanding of a legitimate rule of ancient Stoic logic, which says that any universal claim can be tested or disproved by a single exception.

The comment of the author of Post 15 said something which logically entailed that all Muslim men are especially sexually modest and therefore would be more offended than non-Muslim men by sexual misconduct.

I argued from my experience that this is false.

Your vituperative, false and malicious accusations of racism, weakness, etc., are a miserable excuse for rational argument.

[Judi Lynn]

93. You are precisely correct.

It'd be impossible to miss the deliberate attempt to smear Iraqii men. The racism reeks.

No one could possibly be fooled by this squalid pretense to contribute.

[ElectroPrincess]

43. I am honestly curious ...

Ok, it's not fair that I accuse you of fibbing. Where in the ME did you travel? I know it could not have been either in Saudi Arabia or Iran because religious dress codes would NOT have allowed your beautiful blonde girlfriend to reveal her hair color, i.e., women are covered from head to toe.

Honestly, you could not have been allowed in either country. Considering that the Bush Administration and (14 of the 19 hijackers) came from supposedly Saudi Arabia. If we are discussing "terrorism" the ancillary Arabian countries' culture in the middle east in not an applicable point.

When I was a young blond LT in the early 80s on TDY in Northern Japan, I received *way too much* attention from the Japanese men. However, I was able to handle myself without an escort. No dig on your girlfriend, but it is not surprising that she stood out and some curious "Arab men came to visit. The groping part I do not get ... but, oh well.

I do apologize for saying that you were not telling the truth. However, I believe that your experience was not within Saudi Arabia (Bin Ladden's home of record). Besides this is all conjecture ... we're wasting bandwidth discussing - generalizing - stereotyping Arab male stereotypes. ;)

[Algomas]

48. Demoman, I believe the man was raped...

however, having traveled overland to India many, many moons ago with a female companion, I have to say my experience was the same as yours. I had to defend her honor from a drunken Iraqi and ended up putting a knife to his throat to make him stop. In India, we could not sleep on board the trains because of anonymous hands trying to cop a feel. These things do happen in the world and to deny it is to be willfully ignorant.

[Judi Lynn]

50. Drunk already? n/t

[Ripley]

54. Oh Lordy, Sweet Baby Jesus Tell me Please!!!!!!!!....

(not a Christian here, but anyway) who are these people and why are they here?

having traveled overland to India many, many moons ago with a female companion, I have to say my experience was the same as yours. I had to defend her honor from a drunken Iraqi and ended up putting a knife to his throat to make him stop

I usually carry a knife too when I travel along the roads in India and I often encounter molesting Iraqi's in India most often!

This is getting past absurd now.

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. Although Algomas gives his country as Transylvania

that may or may not be a joke (his state is 'siege'). But he probably means travelling overland from Europe - in which case you would go to India through Iraq. He does continue 'when I got to India', which implies the encounter with an Iraqi was earlier, ie on the overland trip.

Women getting groped happens quite often to travellers, in many countries all around the world. If you meet, or even just pass in the street, 100 strangers in a day, and one of them thinks he can get away with a grope of a woman who doesn't know the area, and might not know how to get help quickly, then that's only 1% of the men who behaves like that. But it's still one incident a day.

I can believe the stories we have heard here. What I wouldn't say is that you can extrapolate them to a generalisation about Arab men.

[Algomas]

61. Not a generalization at all..

Bad things happen everywhere, even here in the good ole USA. Our own record on violence against women is nothing to crow about. My encounter with the Iraqi took place in Yugoslavia. I came by the knife by chance the day before. I found it on the side of the road while hitchhiking.
As a non-violent hippie, I was amazed that I actually used it!!
I did not mean to imply that all Arab men are crazed dogs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. True, your post wasn't a generalization

and I'm sorry if anyone thought I was criticising you. It was demoman123's original "If I did, the men were immediately trying to grope her" that made it sound like molesting women was a typical Arab reaction.

[Ripley]

74. You say: I can believe the stories...

Let's assume these situations happened as stated by the previous posters. I have female relatives who have encountered "gropes" in Mexico, Paris and especially I have female co-workers who encountered this shit in Japanese trains.

I also know women who have been raped in Columbus, Ohio, Birmingham, Al and L.A., USA.

1. What is the real reason these men bring up "Iraqi" or "Muslim Men" assaulting women, especially when they describe the women they are with as blonde whites?

2. This thread is about torture of prisoners in a US run facility in a country we have invaded.

3. How would someone know an "Iraqi" groped their companion? Especially in India? Or on their way to India? Did he announce his allegiance to Saddam while groping? How does anyone know the nationality of someone grabbing their ass on the street?

You give way too much credence to these stories. I'm sure Iraqi men can be assholes and assault women, but why do you believe these guys?

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. I hope you've read post #61 by now

so that you know that Algomas met the Iraqi in Yugoslavia. You will also know that I said that these kind of assaults happen everywhere; and so did Algomas.

The 'real reason'? Well, since you seem inclined to disbelieve the 2 posters' stories, there's hardly any point in my speculating - I might be wrong, and you probably won't believe me anyway. Ironically, your first attack on demoman123 was about him deciding not to believe a story. But it's alright for you to be sceptical, it seems.

It's quite possible for a groper to talk to you first - or afterwards (with a knife in your hand, they might become quite voluble if you want them to). It's also possible to talk to other people who know them.

If Iraqi men can assault women, why is it so unbelievable that these 2 guys know of such incidents?

[ElectroPrincess]

76. Sure read it all ... about Iraqi men in India and Yugoslavia! WTF?

If it gets you off to believe women need protecting *everywhere* even the good ole'USA, i.e., all men are just hound dogs ... hide our women!?! Please consider these testimonials to a male-only site where the message will be readily accepted? The one man that dare grabbed my ass I slammed up against the wall and exclaimed, "Cut that shit out." Further I was dressed modestly ... no right to blame the victim but AWARENESS of surroundings is the key.

This is getting so very old and repetitious = Iraqi men in "all sorts of countries", lying in wait for beautiful Blondie USA women to harass and sexually abuse.

Please take it to a right wing Fundy site where such innuendo and rumors will be enthusiastically accepted. I don't wish to think the intelligent folks here would believe this seemingly never-ending mantra of "groping Iraqi men" all over the world. However, I don't need someone ultra-macho to defend "my honor." Your testimonials are absurd ... the generalizations you draw are dangerous.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. Please make yourself clearer

No-one has talked about Iraqi men in India. One poster (not me) talked about an Iraqi in Yugoslavia. I'm not sure what your objection to this is. Do you think it unbelievable that an Iraqi would have been in Yugoslavia several years ago? If so, why?

Your sentences aren't even grammatical - I'm truly not sure what you're trying to say. You're obviously angry; and you think someone thinks they need to "defend your honor". I don't know where that's come from.

I agree that generalizations are dangerous - and that's pretty much what I said a few posts ago. But perhaps the 'you' you're referring to is 'me and some other posters' - can you make this clear? Thanks.

[ElectroPrincess]

78. I'm only suggesting ...

I've spent my entire life living and working among the far right. I know how they think. That is clear. Believe these men if you wish but I smell a rat. This is way too convenient: Two men with two girlfriends having Iraqi men (how were they IDd as Iraqi?) sexually abuse their girlfriends.

Also, as I've stated repeatedly, I've lived in the ME. Not a tourist traveling through. The sexist overtones also tripped my switch, "protect her honor" and "I couldn't leave her alone." These USA men are sounding almost Fundy or Islamic in their intense desires to defend these gal's HONOR?

No, I will be clear that I have no proof but neither of the two stories make sense nor do these men go into any great detail or answer my question of where exactly in the ME did they live and/or travel; and how these men were validly IDd as Iraqi. I've worked in the Intelligence field which, does NOT make me all-knowing but often times very suspicious of testimonials, especially when they support a generalization that can lead to discrimination of an entire class of people.

In conclusion, it's only my opinion, but this "set-up" looks really *cute* and *too convenient* for the circumstances. But as P.T. Barnum wrote, "There's one born every minute."

I hope that I was clear. My family and I have lived in the ME. While there the applicable dress codes are strictly followed. We don't like the oppression of women anywhere, but one step at a time. Women were not able to vote in the USA not too long ago.

On Edit: I must admit a weakness: in many instances, I express in writing, what many IMHO *obsessed folks* who adore perrrrfect grammer consider horrid sentence structure. I can see these folks up-chuck all over their edit pens. Sorry, I don't give a sh*t as long as I make sense to most good people. Unlike my thesis and proposal, I don't employ an editor to post. No great loss ; ).

p.s. You obviously do NOT care much for my persona? Let's try to communicate via PM if you honestly wish to understand my perspective?

[Ripley]

79. Yeh, I read 61.

One of those "changed their story" things.

I find it statistically impossible that two new guys on DU have encountered molesting Iraqi men towards their "female companions" on the streets of countries outside Iraq.

[ElectroPrincess]

35. I don't believe that you've traveled extensively throughout the ME

Sorry but I don't buy it. My father built an airstrip in Iran (Major, US Army Corps of Engineers) and was assigned (with family) in Tehran, Iran for over a year, i.e., when our bud (USA backed) The Shah was in power. The men in the ME, at least from my Father and older Brother's experiences - do NOT in public view, approach women as such. I'm not saying there's not a few, but gee, you've read too many tawdry *Arabian* novels.

My family's (and my) experience of the Persian and Arabian (Father worked in Saudi Arabia) peoples does not reflect such an "all over unaccompanied women" perspective.

However, I'm sure you'll have no problem selling such "All of um are Brutish Arabian men!" stereotype to right-wing bar flies most anywhere in the USA.

On edit: Typos and excuse my "run on" sentence tendency.

[demoman123]

39. Then don't take my word for it.

Read any guidebook for ME travel, from Lonely Planet to Let's Go or Fodors, and they will all warn women against the danger of travelling alone. The danger is not one of getting robbed but of unwanted sexual advances.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Here's a good travel tip!

Males and females beyond childhood are not free to congregate together in most public places, and a man may be arrested for being seen with, walking with, traveling with, or driving a woman other than his wife or immediate relative. In Saudi Arabia, playing of music or dancing in public, mixed bathing, public showing of movies, and consumption of alcoholic beverages are forbidden.

Saudi religious police, known as Mutawwa, have been empowered to enforce the conservative interpretation of Islamic codes of dress and behavior for women, and may rebuke or harass women who do not cover their heads or whose clothing is insufficiently concealing. In addition, in more conservative areas, there have been incidents of private Saudi citizens stoning, accosting, or pursuing foreigners, including U.S. citizens, for perceived dress code or other infractions. While most such incidents have resulted in little more than inconvenience or embarrassment for the individual targeted, there have been incidents where Westerners were physically harmed.

U.S. citizens in Saudi Arabia should be aware of Saudi social practices, and that any infractions may be dealt with aggressively. If you are accosted by Saudi authorities, cooperate fully in accordance with local customs and regulations. U.S. citizens who are harassed by private Saudi citizens or Saudi authorities should report the incidents immediately to the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh or the U.S. Consulate General either in Dhahran or in Jeddah.
(snip/...)

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/africa.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looks as if it says you should be respectful enough to acknowledge their traditions, and that it's most unlikely they are going to be goosing your female companions.

[ElectroPrincess]

45. Oh please stop ...

I was a very attractive young woman and I traveled all over the world. You are beginning to irritate my sensibilities with your sexism. If you feel it "manly" to protect women great, but I'll go where ever the hell I wish with out you warning me of sexual advances.

It involves knowing your surroundings and taking precautions. Yes, that's important but NO WAY do women need to get paranoid that that sex-crazed Arab men are going to grab OUR "USA women" off the street.

That's how you're coming off. Stop now because you sound like a patriarch. If I feel a need, I'll travel with my husband and/or brother to play it safe. But I sure as hell didn't need you in the past to travel throughout the world, and I don't appreciate the preaching and "travel guide" SEX ABUSE warnings. Please ... enough of the machismo ... protect OUR AMERICAN (blonde?) women saga. This is really "off target."

[demoman123]

47. NT

NT

[Judi Lynn]

46. I've traveled alone to Asia and back alone, and around, alone.

Only hard time I had was getting ripped off once by a cab driver.

I thought you said your girlfriend was with you. Is that the same as being alone?

[Judi Lynn]

17. I don't know any women who would consider

grinning ferociously, hovering over a dead man who was beaten to death, either, while making photos.

I don't know one, and I've met some real Republicans.

[daleo]

49. It seems hard to believe

But given what we now know to be true about other things, it can't be automatically dismissed. The phrase "force him to have sex with her" could mean a lot of things, far short of intercourse - fondling for example.

[peacetalksforall]

11. I think all people involved in this call of abuse, terror, humiliation,

and inhumanity should have their pictures taken and printed on a deck of cards. If it takes several decks - they should be arranged in order of rank authority. If only 1000 sets are ever printed and circulated, it will have been done and it will be recorded in history. Forget prison. They should then be made to start life over starting with the first grade to figure out what lessons they missed.

Has man evolved? I would say yes in that most people are apalled by this. But are the highest in authority getting away with this through the cooperation of CPN (Corporate Propaganda Networks) and a possible clamming up in Congress?

[BeHereNow]

16. 17 and 18 year old female detainees?

HEADS MUST ROLL!!!
Why in the hell would they be interrogating children
in the middle of the night?
If anyone violated my daughter, and let's face it,
you know from the dyncorp scandals that they did,
they would DIE.
I repeat DIE. I would demand their execution.
Those poor children, their parents must be in such
terrible agony to think of their daughters brutalized
by these sub human peices of shit pedophiles.
I am FUCKING outraged that my tax dollars paid for it!
I want accountability from the neocons and the military
commanders, they knew, they allowed it, they MUST pay!
NOW! WAR CRIMINALS, they are WAR CRIMINALS!
BHN
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[shraby]

21. I just sent a copy of the article to

my Senator and called for an independent counsel to investigate and bring people to justice. Maybe it would help if the rest of us did this.

[BeHereNow]

24. EXACTLY!

I just wrote to the Times and DEMANDED that they
correct the article to state accurately that a seventeen
year old detainee is a CHILD, not a woman.
I also attacked them for their complicity to war crimes
by continually white washing the facts, as in calling
a seventeen year old a "woman." I have a seventeen year
old, and she is a CHILD, not a woman. Granted she is maturing
like a woman, but emotionally she is a child.
The media MUST be stopped from sparing the
public from the grotesque reality of what has happened.
Americans might actually get a little uncomfortable
if they were forced to contemplate two female adolescent
young civilians being roused in the middle of the
night by these THUGS.
GOD DAMN IT! Where is the outrage in this country?
BHN

[Eric J in MN]

53. I just sent the article to my representatives. I also wrote that

I just sent the article to my representatives.

I also wrote that EVERY prisoner should be treated with dignity, and that there should be no secret prisoners.

I also wrote that they should create a new agency to protect the human rights of prisoners, and to provide oversight to make sure nothing like this ever happens, again.

[Disturbed]

25. Debating the details.

Perhaps some detainees could be exagerating or making up stories, however, Sen Lindsey, a Republican, stated on TV which I heard, that there were rapes and murders. Twenty seven deceased detainees of several prisons is being investigated. Who is investigating these aleged murders? The Military. Does it make any sense that the Military should be investigating itself?

A human rights org. stated that there are over 24 secret prisons and Rumsfailed admitted that a detainee had been secretly shipped of to a secret prison in Afghanistan. After 4 months some in the Pentagon said that this was illegal, so this detainee got shipped back to Iraq but his name was kept off of any list, so that the Red Cross could not interview him. This action is a violation of the Geneva Convention. Rumsfailed now has admitted violating the Geneva Convention. Will he be charged with a crime?

[BeHereNow]

36. Mr. Fox, there has been a crime at the Chicken Coop

Please investigate.
That is the analogy...
Or, Mr. Pedophile, there has been a molestation at the
Pre-School, could you find out what happened?
WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE!!!
Are 'murikkkans REALLY this STOOOOPID?
Complacent? Ignorant?
WHAT the hell is going on???
BHN

[calimary]

51. Gee, I guess when bush refers to "rape rooms," he's going to have to

be a little more specific...

WHOSE rape rooms, george?

[disinfo_guy]

29. Why is Rumsfeld still in office? Get him fired NOW!

The media is pretending that "Rumsfeld resigning" is a "dead issue" - says who?

Sign the petition if you haven't already:

http://www.sojo.net/

[BeHereNow]

37. ALL of them MUST GO! NOW!!!

I can't sleep at night thinking about this shit.
I can't function because I feel SO outraged
about what these people have done "in my name."
The more furious I feel, the more impotent to
do ANYTHING productive in my day to day living.
ALL of my thoughts are focused on HOW do we
get the country back from this band of rabid clowns?
I feel so helpless...
BHN

[InformedSource]

44. It won't do any good to get rid of Rumsfeld.

He's only be replaced by someone equally awful.

[disinfo_guy]

23. Two Marines plead guilty to electrical torture

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/03/prisoner.abuse.marines.ap/

Two 19-year-old Marines pleaded guilty to giving electric shocks to an Iraqi prisoner they were guarding in early April, months after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse, military officials said.

According to the military statement, the pair and two other Marines wanted to discipline the detainee for throwing trash outside his cell and speaking loudly at the Al Mahmudiya prison, a temporary holding facility south of Baghdad.

The Marines attached wires to a power convertor, which delivered 110 volts of electricity to the detainee as he returned from the bathroom, the statement said.

[janx]

33. As he returned from the bathroom? What--did he just happen

to grab the live wires with his hands or what? Something has been left out here...

[disinfo_guy]

55. I think we're supposed to read between the lines

[IronLionZion]

52. How does a woman rape a man?

"... uniformed woman forced him to have sex with her."

Is this physically possible? And what the hell kind of woman would want to do that?

[bleedingheart]

58. I don't know but I bet it is possible

and to be honest at this point I would believe anything is possible based on what reports have come back.

[lazarus]

56. interesting

Why is this part classified? Just because of the rape?

Classifying material to cover up a crime is a felony...

[gorky]

60. "New Abuse Charges (Classified sections of Taguba report)"

He was probably sodomized by the female GI. The word "sex" might be used by the iraqi due to not knowing the right English word or Time substituted sex for sodomy to sanitize the report.

This must be a variation of the other extensively used method were one or two male guards would hold a prisoner down with his legs spread while a female guard or interrogator kick him in the groin. This happened in Camp Bucca under MSGT Lisa Girman when the rookie male guard held the prisoners down who were supposed to have raped Jessica Lynch and the female MP Shawna Edmondson went about kicking their genitals.

In Bagram Airport under Captain Carolyn Wood two prisoners died due to this treatment. ( The med rep read death due to blunt force injuries to lower extremities , meaning genitals, but has been reported in a sanitised form as injuries to legs by US papers ).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,909294,00.html

[Judi Lynn]

62. Thank you, gorky, for posting that article.

Very intense, isn't it?

I've never seen this strange statement from the pResident:

In January, in his state of the union address, President George Bush announced that "3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries" and "many others have met a different fate" and "are no longer a problem to the United States".
(snip)

Quite the cocky remark. Hope he finally can be satisfied with his sense of power and will go home.

On edit:

Welcome to DU, gorky! Great first post. :hi: :hi: :bounce:

[Dhalgren]

65. I've wondered,

if a President admits to murder, why isn't he arrested? Bush annouced in a televised address that he had authorized the murder of an unnumbered amount of people around the world and no one says anything? Is it now legal for the President to commit murder? Must be...

[Judi Lynn]

67. Accidental dupe. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

68. He's come a long way from his long list of exections in Texas

There aren't too many ways you can interpret what he said about all those missing people. You're right. They're gone. He did it. He's bragging.

Not exactly the larger-than-life, virtuous vision we've been force-fed from birth about American Presidents, is it?

[bobthedrummer]

83. For years now the social networks of returnee GI's from Afghanistan and

Iraq, as well as the social networks of various US human service professions have been discussing the enormity of the crimes committed and witnessed in the war on terror as prosecuted by the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President.

But when the demand for evidence, proof, is met-it still isn't enough, and then the people are told that WE WON'T BE ALLOWED TO SEE THE EVIDENCE:grr::puke::argh::nuke:

[TroglodyteScholar]

94. Where I'm from...

"...he was held down by two men while a uniformed woman forced him to have sex with her.

Where I'm from, they call this kind of behavior "rape."