Bush Claimed Right to Waive Anti-Torture Laws

[CShine]

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush claimed the right to waive anti-torture laws and treaties covering prisoners of war after the invasion of Afghanistan, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized guards to strip detainees and threaten them with dogs, according to documents released Tuesday. The documents were handed out at the White House in an effort to blunt allegations that the administration had authorized torture against al-Qaida prisoners from Afghanistan and Iraq. "I have never ordered torture," Bush said a few hours before the release.

The Justice Department, meanwhile, disavowed a memo written in 2002 that appeared to justify the use of torture in the war on terror. The memo also argued that the president's wartime powers superseded anti-torture laws and treaties. That 50-page document, dated Aug. 1, 2002, will be replaced, senior Justice Department officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity. A new memo will instead narrowly address the question of proper interrogation techniques for al-Qaida and Taliban detainees, the officials said, citing department policy for requesting anonymity on their comments.

Bush outlined his own views in a Feb. 7. 2002, document regarding treatment of al-Qaida detainees from Afghanistan. He said the war against terrorism had ushered in a "new paradigm" and that terrorist attacks required "new thinking in the law of war." Still, he said prisoners must be treated humanely and in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, entitled "Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees."

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBK2H2NSVD.html

[wtmusic]

1. This is unbelievable.

"New thinking in the law of war". "New paradigm".

New vocabulary.

[MO_Dem]

6. I think it is unbelievable, too!

I think someone has been up working late creating documents that they can release!

[dpbrown]

8. Same people who crafted those "Niger Aluminum Tube" docs, no doubt

Frauds, cheats, and liars.

I so hope they get caught lying on this one.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[radfringe]

39. they are not "Niger Aluminum Tubes"

:evilgrin: they are proposed tubes of aluminum :evilgrin:

meanwhile............back at the secret document production plant...

---- snip ----

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=1&u=/ap/20040623/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_prisoner_abuse

But critics said the developments left unresolved some questions about the administration's current guidelines for interrogating prisoners in Iraq and around the world. For example, a 2002 order signed by Bush says the president reserves the right to suspend the Geneva Conventions on treatment of prisoners of war at any time.

"These documents raise more questions than they answer," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. "The White House is better off coming clean and releasing all relevant and nonclassified documents."

The White House released Defense Department memos detailing some of the harsh interrogation methods approved -- and then rescinded -- by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in 2002 and 2003. The administration continues to refuse to say what interrogation methods are approved for use now.

[LittleApple81]

12. I am POSITIVE they did not release everything and almost sure that

what they handed out was altered. Too bad the original documents cannot be checked to see if these are real copies of original documents.

[struggle4progress]

24. Maybe unreleased memos would embarrass judicial nominees. eom

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. How much you want to bet that the CIA has copies of the originals...

...and is waiting to spring them at just the right moment?

[LittleApple81]

29. I hope you are correct. This slime is oozing too slowly. Enough already.

Our country cannot survive too much longer with these weirdos as our heads of government.

[Disturbed]

7. Pres. accepts but rejects.

If that is a fact then why did Gen. Miller at Gitmo allow torture? Why did Rumsfailed go ahead and commit War Crimes?

If certain types of torture was used at Gitmo then Gen. Miller should be indicted for not following the Pres.'s rejection and also Gen. Miller should be tried for War Crimes. All personnel that commited War Crimes in all of the public and secret prison should be charged with War Crimes and the DOD should not be the investigating agent of these War Crimes.

I suspect that the Pres. was lying. Perhaps no documentation of approval was signed to afford the Pres. plausible deniabilty. Unless or until it can be proven that the Pres. approved of torture trials of War Crimes by ALL subordinates should begin ASAP. It is also clear that the Pres.'s Sec. of Defense, Rumsfailed disobeyed the Pres. and should also be charged with War Crimes.

[DRoseDARs]

2. But but but, he only CLAIMED the right to do so, he never used it...

...and besides, 9/11. 9/11 9/11, 9/11 brave new world 9/11.

[radfringe]

41. if torture is so reprehensible

and bush* was against it --- then why did bush* need a memo to justify the "right" to use torture? What would have made more sense is a memo reiterating and clarifying policies/procedures which prohibit the use of torture.

seems to me bush* inc. was looking for loopholes and technicalities in which they could spin the use of torture as being acceptable.

[DRoseDARs]

42. Well, [Insert Bushbot heming-hawing]...

But but but...

I love how the rightwingers constantly try to make liberals look wishy-washy on every issue they can instead of being stone cold resolute (like them, naturally), and yet here the Bush Administration is saying "Torture is bad; you shouldn't do torture, m'kay." while trying to find the means to do that very thing.

But but but... :eyes:

[truthisfreedom]

3. bushco conveniently creates a new reality for themselves any time the real

one won't fit in with their plans. it's the same kind of thinking that justified (in their minds) stealing land from the people (rangers stadium), stealing from their investors (harkin), bribing governments (haliburton), and avoiding the penalties for the havoc wreaked in people's lives from asbestos (haliburton). it's all they know how to do. they put themselves "above" the law consistently... they never ever ever recognize it as applying to them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. His 'new paradigm' is really old

fashioned despotism. This man is out to destroy the Constitution and all American ideals. We must vote him out of office in November.

[rustydog]

5. Hitler, like bush, thought he could approve torture also

look where he ended up, on fire in a bunker.

Just because Bush and his co-horts say so, does not make it legal. It surely does not make it RIGHT.

[Art_from_Ark]

49. But according to bu$h's father, it doesn't matter if it's wrong or right

what matters is that it's "patriotic"

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm

[robertpaulsen]

9. HOLY FUCKING SHIT! Rumsfeld must be sacrificed!

It's finally coming out!

snip-

In a separate Pentagon memo, dated Nov. 27, 2002, the Defense Department's chief lawyer, William J. Haynes II, recommended that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approve the use of 14 interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay, such as yelling at a prisoner during questioning and using "stress positions," like standing, for up to four hours.

Haynes also recommended approval of one technique among harsher methods requested by U.S. military authorities at Guantanamo: use of "mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing."

Among the techniques that Rumsfeld approved on Dec. 2, 2002, in addition to that one, the yelling and the stress positions:

- Use of 20-hour interrogations.

- Removal of all comfort items, including religious items.

- Removal of clothing.

- Using detainees' "individual phobias such as fear of dogs to induce stress."



If Bush is not censured or impeached for his role in this scandal, he must fire Rumsfeld if wants any credibility in his pursuit of a second term. Hallefuckingluyah!

[NJmaverick]

10. THis is big!

Real big, it disputes everything bush and company (and their defenders) have said.

[Lugnut]

11. "I have never ordered torture."

"I am not a crook." :eyes:

[Edmond Dantes]

16. My thoughts exactly!

:P

[Judi Lynn]

23. CNN has a clip tonight of him claiming he never ordered torture.

He's really trying to give it the old bidness school try, to come across as truly sincere. It's VERY spooky.

Saw it for the first time this evening. It's defintely enough to make your hair stand on end.

[Edmond Dantes]

34. "I never ordered torture....

... but, with a wink and a nod, I indicated that I'd look the other way while military intelligence does ... whatever it is they do ... to ... Iraqis ... to facilitate the flow of information ...."

[wickerwoman]

47. "And then I gloated about it in my State of the Union address."

It continually boggles my mind how anyone could not see directly through Bush. He is one of the worst liars/actors I have ever seen.

And he all but admitted he was using torture in his State of the Union address a few years ago. "Some operations you'll never hear about" or something like that.

Fucking transparent scumbag.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. "I was out of the loop".

[havocmom]

13. Laws? Treaties? The junta doesn't see no stinking laws and treaties

Laws must be for the little people.

Attn Congress Critters: Take them out NOW. All of them. It is the only way to save your own sorry asses.

This puts every American in uniform in upparrelled danger. They are inviting the torture of our troops by denying the treaties governing how prisioners are treated! Army brass had best be doin something about it, like decide to send the troops home.

[struggle4progress]

14. US approved use of dogs on Guantanamo prisoners

US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved the use of stress positions, hoods, forced nudity, and dogs to instill fear during interrogations of prisoners at a detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in December 2002, newly released secret documents show.

The White House release of a thick file of newly declassified papers tried to demonstrate that Mr Bush and his top aides, in setting policy on interrogation methods, insisted that detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, be treated humanely.
<snip>

Two Australians, David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib, have been held in Guantanamo Bay for more than two years.

Treatment of the Guantanamo detainees, including interrogation methods, has come under scrutiny following a scandal over abuse and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners by US forces at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.
<snip>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200406/s1138256.htm

[Edmond Dantes]

18. Opening paragraph from 8/1/02 memo at issue:

Memorandum for Alberto R. Gonzales, Counsel to the President

You have asked for our Office’s views regarding the standards of conduct under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment or Punishment as implemented by Sections 2340-2340A of Title 18 of the U.S. Code <i.e., U.S. Criminal Code>. As we understand it, this question has arisen in the context of the conduct of interrogations outside of the United States <i.e., not limited to Guantanamo Bay>. We conclude below that Section 2340A proscribes acts inflicting, and that are specifically intended to inflict, severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical. Those acts must be of an extreme nature to rise to the level of torture within the meaning of Section 2340A and the Convention. We further conclude that certain acts may be cruel, inhuman or degrading, but still not produce pain and suffering of the requisite intensity to fall within Section 2340A’s proscription against torture. We conclude by examining possible defenses that would negate any claim that certain interrogation methods violate the statute.

[ewagner]

31. This logic makes me nuts!

I think it goes something like this:

In time of war, you, the pResident, are permitted by law to break the law.

Torture is against the law(International and US).

But breaking the law is upholding the law.

Perfect.

They can uphold the law by breaking the law and by doing so......

onanonanonanonanon..........................

[Miss Authoritiva]

15. Given the Bush Administration's habit of assigning Orwellian titles

to their memos, reports, and legislation, this memo's title is a dead giveaway: "Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees."

[struggle4progress]

19. Nice! eom

[struggle4progress]

17. Bush clearly says U.S. does not condone torture

<snip>
"We do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and our being," Bush told reporters at the White House after a meeting with Hungarian Prime Minister Peter Medgyessy.
<snip>

Among the hundreds of pages of documents, it was revealed that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized prison guards to threaten naked detainees with dogs. Rumsfeld later rescinded that order.
<snip>

In addition to suggesting Bush could approve torture without breaking U.S. law, the controversial memo said, "There is a significant range of acts that though they might constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, fail to rise to the level of torture."
<snip>

Asked if torture was "ever justified," given the memo's conclusion that he could stay within the law and order torture, Bush repeatedly said he ordered officials to obey the laws.
<snip>

http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=21765822&brk=1

[struggle4progress]

20. Bush administration disavows a memo that justified torture

The Justice Department is disavowing a memo that appears to justify torture in the war on terror.

The 50-page document argues that the president's wartime powers superseded anti-torture laws and treaties.

The memo was issued to the White House on August 1, 2002.

Senior Justice Department officials said it'll be replaced because it contains overbroad and irrelevant advice.
<snip>

http://rdu.news14.com/content/headlines/?ArID=49728&SecID=2

[corriger]

22. yes I can see exactly where this is going

damned untermensche. Of use by the junta until caught and now 'overbroad and irrelevant' because the crimes have been already committed. Ah the rage these animals stir ...

[KoKo]

33. The new release is covering your butt after you've already displayed it,

it seems. The article uses the convoluted statements which make no sense. If only we had a "media" who would tell this like it really is!

Instead they will claim that the Gonzalez Memo was never "operational" and that they had disreguarded it, but it still doesn't explain the statement about Rummy calling on the dogs.

:shrug: They twist everything they say so it no one can make sense out of anything.

[struggle4progress]

21. Suicides up after change in command

Three months after a get-tough general took command of the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, prisoners began a flurry of suicide attempts, according to military records.
<snip>

Miller is now in charge of all military-run U.S. prisons in Iraq, a job he took after news broke of beatings and sexual humiliations last fall at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.
<snip>

"Our concern is that the totality of the conditions at Guantanamo - starting with the prolonged detention without trial, combined with the frequent interrogation that may have included problematic methods - may have contributed to an atmosphere that pushed people to attempt suicide," said Alistair Hodgett of the human rights group Amnesty International.
<snip>

In internal memos, Bush administration lawyers have acknowledged repeatedly that "pushing someone to the brink of suicide" would be torture.
<snip>

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2004/06/22/news/news16.txt

[Judi Lynn]

28. Unbelievable!

Is THIS how our "All American" military deals with captured people, under _Bush's proud leadership?

Auch said he (?) never saw any evidence of suicide attempts, although one inmate would bang his head against the door and walls of his cell.

"They had him in a helmet to protect his head because he kept pounding it on the wall," Auch said. "Sometimes they flexicuffed him because he tried to scratch his face, tried to grab anything he could to mutilate himself."
(snip)

Isn't this pathetic? I think this man wanted to leave their hospitality. A right-winger would probably wet himself at the prospect of a captured "furiner" suffering this much.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. The NeoCons are trying to see if this will appease the pursuit on this...

...story, but I think they're hiding even more incriminating information.

[Disturbed]

30. The Twilight Zone

This shameless Pres. cannot have it both ways. If he did not approve of Torture methods then he must immediately fire all of those under his Command that did so. The people that did so must be placed on trial ASAP!

The DOD must not be allowed to investigate War Crimes. A Special Prosecutor must be appointed to do so.

Rumsfailed has admitted publicly to War Crimes. He must be fired and indicted!

The fact that there are over 24 Secret Prison Camps is a War Crime. Anyone that ordered these Secret Prisons to be built and is administrating them is guilty of War Crimes!

There is zero doubt that War Crimes have been commited!



What is a war crime?
By Tarik Kafala
BBC News Online


Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile power, or willfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial, ...taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."


This, international lawyers say, is the basic definition of war crimes.

The statutes of The Hague tribunal say the court has the right to try suspects alleged to have violated the laws or customs of war in the former Yugoslavia since 1992. Examples of such violations are given in article 3:

* Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity
* Attack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings
* Seizure of, destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science
* Plunder of public or private property.

The tribunal defines crime against humanity as crimes committed in armed conflict but directed against a civilian population. Again a list of examples is given in article 5:

* Murder
* Extermination
* Enslavement
* Deportation
* Imprisonment
* Torture
* Rape
* Persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1420133.stm

[laylah]

32. He is SUCH

a low-life POS...moneyed, yes, status, yes, of the human population...NOT even...GAWD, I hate this poor excuse for a human being...WHEN CLINTON LIED, NOBODY DIED! May this small man burn in hell...:mad:

Jenn

[Disturbed]

35. GW Bush regarding Rumsfailed

Bush stated that he felt that Rumsfailed has done a fab job. Since Rumsfailed has commited War Crimes, either Bush knew about that and approved or he didn't know. If Bush didn'
t knw then he is derelect of his duty as CIC. Now that Rumsfailed has admitted to commiting War Crimes Bush must fire him or it will be obvious that Bush still feels Rumsfailed is doing a fab job. The near moron Pres. has placed himself in a dilemma. A Pres. cannot keep a Sec. of Defense in place that is a War Criminal. Under a Right Wing Dictatorship backed by most of the major Corporations and most of the Media, it seems that this Pres. can keep all the personnel that have commited War Crimes in place without extending any sanctions on them.

Can the UN or any other org. charge the US Govt. with War Crimes?

[Jack Rabbit]

36. Disavow the memo?

That's a case of closing the barn door after the horses run away, isn't it? The memo was written and it advises Bush to disregard the law. If he took that advice, he is a war criminal.

Bush has no right to abrogate treaties. Under Article 6 of the main body of the Constitution, they are the supreme law of the land and he is as bound by them as I am by the tax code.

Bush claims not to have ordered torture. My gut tells me otherwise. It I am right and he actually waived anti-torture laws, then he should be impeached and removed from office immediately. If he actually waived anti-torture laws and Congress fails to act, then an international tribunal should be convened for the purpose of putting Bush and other senior junta members on trial for war crimes.

[cambie]

37. This is how you know

when you have a dictatorship. The big boss is superior to the law. The laws that all the other citizens and their government have put together over all the generations are trash.

Still at the anniversary of D-day * is dredging up the ww2 comparison. How have often seen the picture of Adolph face to face in the newspaper with the Hitler-of-the-month? It is poor form, and such trivial comparisons are made. Here is the big comparison. Adolph was a much better orator and more forthright, without slinking behind a forest of fancy lawyers. In his own words:

“The Führer is the supreme judge of the nation….there is no position in the area of constitutional law in the third reich independent of this elemental will of the Führer.”

[Rex]

38. "new paradigm" "new thinking in the law of war."

Is that like when someone beheads someone else and puts the footage on the internet? We change the rules and so everyone follows suit.

[jamesinca]

40. Prisoner abuse is the least of the war crimes

The Geneva Convention and the US massacre of POWs in Afghanistan
Statement of the WSWS Editorial Board
7 December 2001

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/dec2001/pows-d07.shtml

On December 1 the last of some 80 survivors of the US-British-Northern Alliance assault on the Qala-i-Janghi prison fortress outside Mazar-i-Sharif emerged from their underground hideouts and surrendered to their assailants. For six days, beginning Sunday, November 25, American and British special forces joined with troops loyal to Northern Alliance General Rashid Dostum in a massive and one-sided attack on 400 to 800 non-Afghan Taliban who had surrendered the previous day in Kunduz. The US, Britain and Northern Alliance justified their slaughter of the prisoners, most of whom were killed in two days of American air strikes, on the grounds that the Taliban captives had staged an uprising.

But news footage of American and Northern Alliance troops firing down on the POWs from the heights of the fortress walls, and fields littered with the corpses of dead and mutilated prisoners, provided clear evidence of a massacre. Even as the extermination of pockets of survivors continued, demands were being raised by human rights organizations for an investigation into violations of the Geneva Convention and other international laws of war.

<SNIP>

But the slaughter of POWs outside of Mazar-i-Sharif cannot so easily be swept under the rug. As the British newspaper the Guardian suggested on December 1: “A single, horrific atrocity can provide the defining moment in a war ... questions are being asked about whether the bloody end to this week’s prison siege at the 19th-century Qala-i-Janghi fort outside the northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif will be the defining moment of the Afghan war. Pictures of aid workers picking their way through the corpses of Taliban prisoners killed by a combination of Northern Alliance fighters and American bombings have caused revulsion around the world.”

No single act carried out by the American military so clearly bespeaks a war crime as the killing of hundreds of POWs at the prison fortress. In the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, American military and civilian authorities sought to attribute the slaughter of civilians to a rogue element. The chief perpetrator, Lt. William Calley, was prosecuted by US courts.


<SNIP>


History forgets nothing and politics is full of surprises. World public opinion, including that in the United States, will not remain forever in its present state of ignorant stupefaction. Many journalists and media pundits who are today covering up and even lauding the war crimes instigated by US government officials will, in years to come, have a hard time explaining away what they wrote during the bloody enterprise in Afghanistan. And as for those in the administration directly responsible for what has happened, they will, sooner or later, be compelled to respond to allegations of war crimes in the appropriate legal forums.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

There is so much more to this article that I can not post here because of board rules etc.... It gives names and gives specifics of the events that led to the massacre. It also makes note of the American, not the rest of the worlds, media silence of this issue.

[LeftHander]

43. Kick! - (The Iraqi in the groin)

For exposing more evidence of BUSH's wish to Torture!

[tibbiit]

44. I want to know who

the 3000 evil doers who are no longer a problem to the US-- that he smirked about in the state of the union speech.
Was that legal for the US to "get rid of" these evil-doers?

Remember that spot in the speech, the smirk?
Were they killed by torture?
tib

[Triana]

45. bunnypants didn't order torture...

Rummy did, at bunnypants' request and with bunnypants' knowledge.

BOTH of them are damned war criminals.

[kimchi]

46. Just when you think sanity is returning, * goes all Orwellian again.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, entitled "Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees."

Translation:

"We Treat Them Brown Skins Good"

Wesson Oil sez I can squeeze 'em till their heads pop, and get away with it! 'Course I'd NEVER do that. *snicker* *smirk*

[struggle4progress]

48. kick for King George

:kick:

[Zech Marquis]

50. I'm not a lawyer

but did the BFEE just comit perjury here/