Hybrid Owners Get Service at Dealerships, and Likely Nowhere Else

[CShine]

DETROIT (AP) - With Ford Motor Co.'s Escape hybrid sport utility vehicle due out this summer, the automaker is training thousands of mechanics at dealerships around the country how to service them.
The fuel-efficient vehicle, which has both a traditional gas-powered motor and an electric motor, isn't vastly different from its standard Escape counterpart. But while service stations can rotate the tires, fix the brakes and change the oil, owners need to visit the dealerships for anything that requires mechanics to analyze or fix problems under the hood. And in many cases, independent auto mechanics don't want to touch hybrid vehicles.

For now, it's not an issue for most owners because warranties protect the cars for many years. But some owners fear the end of the warranty because they won't have the option of taking their car to independent auto repair shops, which typically offer lower prices for repairs than the dealerships.

Dean Rudie of Minneapolis has more than 80,000 miles on his Toyota Prius and hasn't had any problems with his car other than a bad accelerator pedal assembly. But he is eyeing the end of his 100,000-mile battery warranty with some trepidation. "I called the dealer and found out it will cost $6,320 to replace the huge, 110-pound battery," said Rudie, 53. "This has given me pause."

The dealership mechanics "are the only people I know that know anything about working on" the hybrids, said Henry Lister, 50, a Chapel Hill, N.C., resident who owns a 2001 Toyota Prius. "My mechanic said, 'It looks like fun, but I'm not working on it.'"


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBXTDUXSVD.html

[physioex]

1. That's a bit steep...

$6000 to replace a set of batteries. Even with fuel prices so high, the cost benefit analysis of the hybrid vechicles may not be there. I said this before, but consider purchasing a Volkswage TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection). This car can be run on ordinary diesel or biodiesel, and is much cheaper than a hybrid. It is also much simpler to maintain.

[still_one]

2. I have a first and second generation prius

1. the hybrid components, including the batteries are rated for 10 years or 100000 miles.

2. oil and lube is the same as any other car.

3. I get between 40 to 50 mpg

4. In California the cheep gas is 2.20/gallon

5. currently if you buy a hybrid you can get a federal deduction of 1500 dollars.

6. In California, hybrid cars are exempt from pollution checks, which cost from 80 to 90 dollars.

7. In San Jose, I can park at any public garage free

8. The car cost me fully loaded around 20K. I have a 450 to 500 mile range on the cars before I need to fill them up with gas.

9. Based on the cars I used to drive, I am saving about 20 to 40 dollars a week. Pays for my insurance premium...

[physioex]

3. If it works for you...

Then great. I am not against hybrids, I would like for them to be a bit cheaper and more people driving them. But the mechanics out there are going to need some ramp up time to learn to repair these vechicles. But I stand by my statement, the fact that the hybrid has more components means more things to break thus increasing the costs....

[4_Legs_Good]

4. I have a 2001 Honda Insight

I get about 62 MPG. I have a 100 mile commute/day, so it saves me about $6/day 20 days a month over the car I had been driving previously (which got about 25 MPG). I've been driving it for the past 3 years, so that's about $4,320 in 3 years. The battery is waranteed for 8 years with Honda.

I do only get it serviced at the Honda dealership, unless I do it myself, which is trivial, but I've been getting lazy lately. The services at the dealership are no more expensive than Jiffy Lube was for my last vehicle. It has over 75,000 miles on it presently.

It cost me about $19,000 with minus a $2,000 federal tax refund.

Anyway, add in the low guilt factor for burning only 1.8 gallons of gas a day on my long commute (when compared to 4 gallons) and it's well worth it.

We've also bought a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, which is less impressive in terms of fuel efficiency, but runs well and has had no problems in the last year and a half.

The sad news is that I think Honda is discontinuing the Insight, which is a very nice commuter car. I hope mine never dies!

david

[JM]

5. It will only be a matter of time

before service is available elsewhere. In addition, sooner or later batteries will be available from other sources or at a lower price.

This happens with ANY new technology and is very typical of the generic product life-cycle.

JM

[natrat]

6. discontinuing the Insight, there

is an 8 month waiting list for a prius here in the bay area. If i had some money and a job to commute to or a rugrat to deposit at school i would get one of these. Regenerative braking how cool is that.I no like big oil company

[StopThief]

7. Exactly!!!

The market will bring in competition as more cars go beyond the warranty period and it becomes profitable to service them.

[Frodo]

8. The main problem here is the OIL

0W20 oil is only available from Honda or as a synthetic. None of my local lube joints carry the oil unless I'm buying the synthetic Mobil1 (at a $40 premium).


But the battery shouldn't be an issue. It's got it's own warranty (75-80k) and the batteries should be LOTS cheaper by the time five years rolls around.

[jmowreader]

15. The batteries won't get cheaper

The best technology out there for this application is the Tubular Battery. It is a lead-acid battery, but the electrodes in it are tubes, not plates. You've all seen electric forklifts; about 75 percent of all electric forklifts have tubular batteries on them.

Two days ago our forklift mechanic was in town performing a quarterly service on my crab-steer reach truck, and I asked him what a battery for it costs. "About five grand on an exchange basis, plus shipping and installation." You get about five years out of one no matter how much you use it, so the cost isn't really unreasonable.

The tubular battery was invented in 1913. All of the learning curve associated with these batteries has been exhausted.

I think they're going with a lighter technology for hybrid batteries, like nickel-metal hydride. Part of tubular's appeal on a forklift is that it is heavy. If you need 3000 pounds of counterweight on your forklift, it's about as cheap to do it with a 3000-pound battery as with a half-ton of battery and a ton of concrete, and you get more run time out of the bigger battery. (It's definitely cheaper to do a ton of lead than a ton of steel, and Nissan's forklifts have steel counterweights as steel allows for a shorter machine because it's denser.) NiMH is really expensive now, but it's a newer technology so the price may go down. OTOH, the high price may be keeping demand down; as the number of NiMH-powered hybrids increases, so does the demand for the materials in the battery--meaning the price will go up.

[Frodo]

21. Not the issue here.

It isn't so much an issue of the technology maturing (though that will certainly happen - there is little similarity between these batteries and your forklift). It's a volume thing. It's like that West Wing line about drug prices "The pills don't cost 2$ each... the FIRST one costs $3Billion and the rest each cost ten cents". The cost of designing and manufacturing these things is not born by a few thousand vehicles being sold.

When the hybrids are far more common their batteries will become cheaper.

[jmowreader]

23. You're not getting my point

A computer can get radically cheaper the longer it's out there because of the maturation of the technology. That's because raw materials cost on a computer is minimal. What is there, five ounces of electronics in a $2500 computer? And once you've paid for the foundry, you can make chips for just materials cost, payroll and taxes.

Pills get cheaper because the raw-materials cost in them is minimal--the drug in just about any pill you'd care to name weighs less than a gram. You can get 908 500mg Viagra tablets out of a pound of sildafenal.

A big storage battery like the one in a hybrid auto, or a forklift, weighs a hell of a lot and it's got big-time raw materials cost in it. If metal hydride costs fifty bucks a pound right now, and it costs fifty bucks a pound after the demand for it quintuples because the company that makes it had to build four new factories to meet demand, exactly how does a battery with a hundred pounds of metal hydride in it get any cheaper?

Why I keep bringing up forklifts in discussions of hybrid autos: there are two truly successful kinds of electrically-driven vehicles--trains and forklifts. Of the two, forklifts are more germane to this discussion because they're about the size of a car and more people buy forklifts than buy locomotives--locomotives are custom built when they're ordered, but you can buy a forklift off the lot.

[Trillo]

17. The interesting thing about Mobil 1 oil, is that way back when it was

first introduced, it was claimed to last 25,000 miles before changing it was required. Over the years that mileage recommendation has decreased . . . not sure what the "official" mileage recommendation is now.

The point is that the mileage rating for it may be considerably higher than what the manufacturer wants you to believe.

[Frodo]

20. That's encouraging.

Since I'm about 2,000 miles past my recommended 5,000 mile change. :-)

[BiggJawn]

9. That's why my Girlfriend won't buy one.

Sh buys a Honda and LITERALLY "drives the wheels off" of it. Her '84 Civic has over 180,000 miles on it, original clutch and the inside of the engine is sludge-free. The body thinks it's the SS Titanic, though, so she'll need to retire it before the monocoque breaks in half and dumps her in the street in a shower of rust flakes...

She won't consider a Hybrid because of the replacement cost of the battery. She figures she pays cash for the car, and gas/oil/tyres/brakes/insurance is all she wants to pay for until it's time to send it to the smelter.

[w4rma]

14. hybrid components, inc. the batteries are rated for 10 years or 100k miles

on a prius.

See post #2.

[BiggJawn]

16. Read my post again, please.

Her car is TWENTY years old and has almost TWO HUNDRED thousand miles on it.

Now, exactly HOW would she benefit from a 10/10K battery warranty?

If she were to buy one of those, she would be replacing possibly TWO battery banks out-of-pocket before the car was too rusty to go on.

[Toucano]

10. Constant effort to deride the hybrid.

Last week I saw several items that were also part of the effort to keep the oil monkey on our backs.

The first one was a teaser: "The hidden danger of hybrid cars!" The story that followed? Someone says that if a hybrid wrecks it could become electrified and threated the occupants and the rescue teams. An engineer is interviewed who dispels the concern as "impossible". That's the "hidden danger" - an imaginary threat.

The next one was introduced with the teaser: "The problem with hybrid cars". I think this was CNN. It turns out the PROBLEM is there aren't enough to keep up with demand and so people are WILLINGLY paying hundreds over list price for the cars. Isn't that terrible. Effing hybrid!

There is obviously an anti-hybrid campaign going on.

[hatrack]

11. I tend to agree - but the good news is that no one is listening

There's a dealer premium of up to $5,000 on the new Prius, and people are paying it. Others are marketing their places in waiting lists on EBay.

[bleedingheart]

12. Well...I am saving my pennies to buy one

so the campaign isn't working on me!

:-)

[Justitia]

13. I've noticed this as well

Very transparent. I think the battery issue is way overblown, the warranties offered seem very adequate.

Long waiting lists to get any type of hybrid, I hope this induces the manufacturers to really ramp up production. Lexus is supposed to be coming out with a hybrid version of their mini-SUV, their most popular model, the RX. It will be called the RX-h. Since they are Toyota, I would think this would be sooner rather than later.

I think our oil barons in this country are nervous.
Personally, I see it as a nat'l security issue as well.

[BiggJawn]

18. I would buy one myself.

But I'll wait until the Capitalism Factor is over, and dealers aren't marking them up 30% over MSRP because demand is so high.

Wonder what the resale market will be for Hybrids with bad battery banks? Bet J.D. Byryder won't be selling many on the "Buy Here, Pay Here" plan...

[midnight armadillo]

19. Battery question

Is the energy required to manufacture and transport a new battery pack equal to, greater, or less than the energy savings in the operation of the car through use of the old battery?

If the hybrid is a _net_ energy loss over a standard gas (or diesel) engine, then what's the point? Reducing oil use is all fine and good, but the total lifecycle energy costs should be examined.

[Almost_there]

22. I am sure things will get better & cheaper..

One of the positives of the latest oil price spike is it has really brought to the forefront that oil is finate, and it will get more expensive (maybe cheaper in the short run, but, reduced supply will mean increased price) in the long run.

As for the cost of manufacturing a battery, net energy wise, I am positive it would be less. The battery charges off of braking inertia, and isn't using any gas to charge, so, at 50 mpg (avg on a hybrid, incl future SUV's), let's call it a net gas increase of 100%. To make a battery probably takes 10 gallons of oil and 30 pounds of metals. Even if you assume 50 gallons of oil to get those 30 pounds of metal mined etc, is still going to be very positive.

Ford will be using Toyota's technology, the Toyota Highlander / Lexus RX-h will be using the same technology, GM is coming out with a Hybrid, and I think we'll see economies of scale kick in, lowering price of the vehicles (once the "rush" is over) and the batteries for replacement. Even at $4,000, to get another 100,000 miles out of the car, saving 25 mpg, that saves 4,000 gallons of gas. At $2.00 per gallon, that's $8,000 saved in your pocket, and about 3,900 gallons of oil saved.

Not bad.. not bad at all in my opinion. Of course there will be resistance, but, oil companies aren't stupid. They will start pushing Hydrogen vehicles, and begin to produce cheap hydrogen, keeping themselves as "energey suppliers". Mobil Exxon has an oil life span of what? 40 years if they continue to pump at this rate?

~Almost

[mulethree]

24. economics too

A honda civic - 1.7 liter automatic - will burn about 2564 gallons of gas over 100,000 miles = $5282 worth of fuel

A diesel VW Jetta - 1.9 liter automatic - will burn about 2439 gallons of diesel over 100,000 miles = $4292 worth of fuel

A honda civic hybrid will burn about 2083 gallons of gas over 100,000 miles = $4291 worth of fuel

Note that the non-hybrids use less fuel if you get manual-shift versions, but I'm comparing automatics. Gasoline @ $2.06 per gallon and diesel @ $1.76.

So saving $991 or -$1 in fuel costs over 100,000 miles isn't going to pay for the battery change (Estimated $5000+). But when you figure the total cost remember that the non-hybrid cars will replace their normal lead-acid batteries every 3 years or so.

If you're getting $2000 back from a tax break then the hybrid will cost about the same as the normal civic and come in about $2000 less than the Jetta. Hard to compare precisely since I don't find a good price for a 4 door non-hybrid civic that includes the ABS brakes.

So when you include the battery change cost, and (presumably) increased repair/maintenance costs due to the requirement to use a dealer service department; what you're paying is mainly lower emissions. The regular civic will put out around 1/3 the NOx and other smog-chemicals compared to the VW Diesel and the hybrid will put out around 1/4 or 1/5. What is the value of not putting an extra 100 pounds of chemicals into the air? (30 pounds vs 130 pounds over 100,000 miles) (hmm a 6-liter gas Mega-SUV puts out 70 pounds of these chemicals)

[shoelace414]

25. the whole battery set

is $6000.. but that is all the battery cells. you can replace individual batteries cells.

the more the cars needs service, more service stations will learn how to repair them. There is a Internal Combustion engine which works pretty much the same way any normal engine does. then there is the electric motor, which is completely different.

The High voltage lines run on the bottom of the car for jaws of life or the like doesn't cut it.

People always talk about fuel cell or hybrid as being dangerous because you haul hydrogen (same fuel as Hindenburg!) or high voltage batteries. But don't forget, you have gallons of a potentially explosive liquid in the back of your car. Gasoline isn't the safest thing to have.

owner of a 2002 Prius (original model)

[BiggJawn]

26. So, that's what, $120 a cell?

and I could see having to replace 2-3 cells a month until you have a whole new battery under you. Except for the first replacement cells, which could be 2-3 years old by the time you've replaced the whole battery one piece at a time. i've worked with batteries a lot in my 30 years in electronics, and I know that if you have a good charging system that doesn't abuse the battery that all the cells age and die pretty much at the same time. Maybe 2 years from failure 1 to failure 50(considering a 100V battery)That's still $3,000 a year, $120 at a time.

I'm looking at this from my POV. I don't have the money to go trade cars every 3-4 years right as the warranty runs out, so I would be one of those folks who'd either be looking at an out-of-pocket battery replacement, or looking at taking an ass-whipping on trade in trying to unload a 6-7-8 Y-O hybrid car w/no battery warranty left on it.

And what becomes of these cars when they hit the used market? what value would you put on a 6-year old car that has 60,000 miles on it, sold for $24,000 new, and needs a $6,000 battery replaced? I'd bet not even Smilin' Jessie, the Friendly Buy-Here-Pay-Here-just-bring-me-an-honest-face-and-a-pay-stub Guy could get more than maybe $1500 for one.

They're interesting vehicles if you can afford them, but what becomes of them, and their potential load on the enviroment after their original owners fall out of love with them, bothers me a bit.