Short skirts invite rape, say principals

[dArKeR]

South Africa:

Short skirts in school uniforms invite rape. That's what a number of school headmasters have told Saturday Star - but they have raised the ire of an influential women's interest group.

Gender activists have for years campaigned against the notion that women's attire is linked to rape.

A furious Delphine Serumaga of People Against Women Abuse (Powa) said: "Are these people saying that men have no control and cannot handle themselves? Can't they look at human beings without thinking about their sexuality?

"That is rubbish. Abuse has nothing to do with how a person is dressed. Abusers themselves will tell you it is about power."

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20040626132257289C550234

1. Can anyone give me a reason why females wear dresses/skirts in the first place?
2. What is the history reason for females wearing dresses/skirts?

[HEyHEY]

1. Where do these people come from?

I wish they'd go back there

[Mnemosyne]

2. 1. Told to by masters, er, church, er, husbands...

Also gives fundy courts reason to blame the victims.

[TheWraith]

10. This is one hell of a lightning rod for the loonies...

...And I don't neccessarily mean just the other side.

vickiss, kindly try to remember that not all female behavior that you disapprove of is evil and caused by men. Contrary to some people's opinions, this IS a free country.

[Mnemosyne]

39. This has nothing to do with my disapproval of anyone's behavior!

and most certainly NOT female.

I am tired of a country that is supposedly free where I am still hearing the victim's of sexual assault being blamed for their own attacks.

There was a Judge, and my memory fails me on where due to illness, that gave a pedophile a lighter sentence because he felt that the FIVE YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL, had "ACTED SEDUCTIVELY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is only one case, there have been many similar.

My daughter was gang raped by 4 men in 1996 in a house invasion and someone commented that it was her own fault because of "the people
she had for friends.

My comment was toward the control that men HAVE had over women for centuries, thru the church and home, and continue to have in many areas.

YOU should make sure you understand what is sarcasm and what is being said before you try to gently correct anyone.

I appreciate what you were trying to say, but you completely misunderstood. I am the last one to judge anyone as evil.

And if you still think this country is free, based on your opinion, then you should read the Patriot Act, Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, the world newspapers, the underground news, the mainstream media {remember to read more than front page, they bury things deep} and forget watching your tv if you are looking for truth.

Sorry to go off, you did just misunderstand. Forgive my frustration, but please remember my words.

And welcome to tne DU! Don't let my rant scare you your opinion is welcome, just think hard before you comment, this isn't a chat room.

:toast: :toast: :toast: :think:

[MikeG]

3. Sounds to me like Brad Pitt is asking for it.

[luaneryder]

4. What Delphine said n/t

[AndyTiedye]

5. Don't the Mullahs in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran & now Iraq say...

...the same thing? That was the exact rationale they use to force all women to wear burkhas.

[MetaTrope]

15. Personally, I think burkhas are pretty hot

And I don't just mean in terms of insulation.

[Enraged_Ape]

6. I think being a South African school headmaster invites rape

Or at least being beat with a baseball bat until unconscious, or at the very least no longer responsive.

So what does wearing short skirts have to do with anything?

[neuvocat]

7. Let's go mug them

and tell them their attire invited it because they appear to be rich.

[havocmom]

8. Actually, most rape is triggered by a penis

Why not eradicate those if rape is a problem?:shrug: There are plenty of rapes where women are fully covered too. Short skirts don't really seem like the problem.

Personally, I have always thought schools should not encourage boys to wrestle. Teach it to the girls instead. And safe firearm training is good too. Make the ladies less helpless and it might just improve their odds.

[jdj]

9. to be able to pee without exposing oneself.

By the way, it's pants that came later, it seems that most primitive cultures go from nude to loincloth to a skirt or wrap of some kind. Probably because pants are more complicated to sew. I bet pants got introduced about the time people started riding horseback. (ouch).

It's so revealing how each in each culture there is a compulsory code women must follow or risk getting raped. It's retarded because its different in each culture; in South Africa it's a short skirt, in Saudi Arabia, a bare face or bare ankle, here it might be if a woman walks around nude. It's so funny that no culture seems to be able to function without first establishing the % coverage /rape repellent rule. I am not trying to be glib about it, just demonstrating how it is a purely psychological phenomenon, but every culture has to have this unwritten pact between men and women. (Not to prevent rape, of course, but to establish the point beyond which she was "asking for it" and let the guy off the hook.

"Was she asking for it?
Was she asking nice?
If she was asking for it
Did she ask you twice?"

Courtney Love

[TahitiNut]

11. Simple. Require ALL students to wear short skirts.

Stop the bullshit fashion discrimination. Let the male students "invite rape" too.

[saigon68]

41. Keep them away from churches

And out of the rooms in back of the alter

[Massacure]

12. I think it is safe to say that:

A woman who wears less than the others that are around her will be at more risk of being raped. That's just the way it is.

Is that an excuse for the male who rapes the woman? Nope. Rape is always bad, no matter what.

[jdj]

13. No.

She will be more at risk of having the rape justified, on the basis that her clothing showed her "asking for it."

Grown men were raping infants to cure AIDS in Africa. In war-time, women of all ages are raped systematically. The clothing standards do seem to suggest that there is contemplation of the part of the rapist or the potential rapist, with regards to what the (judicial) market will bear with regards to justification of rape.

Most rape victims know their attacker, and a large percentage of rapes occur in the home of the victim. Many victims are related to their attacker (incest), many wives are raped by their husbands. Prostitutes are raped probably more than any of us could bear to know, in fact I read an article that said corroborated Aileen Wuornos' story of being raped or assaulted by her victims percentage-wise, based on interviews with prostitutes.

This garbage about clothing figuring into it is getting clouded by speculation of men who are for the most part probably not rapists. They are basing conclusions on their own fantasized arousal in response to women who wear less than the standard amount of clothing, which is a sexual signal. But the reality of rape as it really is doesn't have much to do with the conjecture of "normal" men, and like any other crime what inspires rape is motive, means and opportunity with regards to the aggressor.

[Mandate My Ass]

14. Rape is *not* about sex, or attractiveness or scantiness of clothing

it's about seizing power.

What one wears has

nothing

to do with it.

[TahitiNut]

16. You mean Amadou Diallo wasn't wearing a short skirt?

Gee, go figure. :silly:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. It's safe to say that saying "it's safe to say blah blah" makes it sound

not quite as bad as "she asked for it" but it communicates the same thing

[JI7]

27. right, if it was just about sex they can get a prostitute

or pick someone up at a bar or something.

[Mnemosyne]

40. Thank you Monica! n/t

[Scairp]

17. Here we go

That is a bunch of crap. Rape is about power and humiliation. One day, 500 years from now, men will understand that and stop blaming a woman's attire for why she attracted the attention that led to her being raped. There have been serial rapists who deliberately targeted older women (over 50), broke into their homes in the middle of the night, and raped them. Now, was it the support hose that caught his eye, or maybe the gray hair? Now, listen good: CLOTHING DOES NOT CAUSE RAPE.

[TahitiNut]

20. The thing about Abnormal Psychology is ....

... we can find the mechanisms in ourselves. Most of us have a mix of motives, inclinations, responses, reactions, opinions, attitudes, beliefs, and perspectives that match in kind, if not in degree, those of persons in whom they're amped and twisted. It's the most common difficulty students of Abnormal Psychology have: seeing it in themselves.

In many rapists there exists a sense of powerlessness over their own reactions to various stimuli - a sense of powerlessness that they project on the object/person to which they react. When it's a member of the opposite sex, society is virtually inept at dealing with the early developmental issues. (Indeed, we seem to be increasingly incapable of distinguishing between the pathologically abnormal and the unusually extraordinary.)

It could be long skirts. I could be flower prints. It could be any of a wide array of visual stimuli. No matter what it is, it can trigger rage in the hyper-reactive person - a rage that becomes directed at the displaced object of that sense of helplessness.


Every time we say "You made me feel ..." we're adding another grain of sand to the vast desert of unhealthy displacement - in a world that needs more ownership of internal feelings and less ownership of external objects.

[GinaMaria]

35. Damn. You nailed it again

Every time I read one of your posts, my synapses over load ;-)

You are so right as usual. Your insight into human beings opens my eyes and helps me see things from a different angle. Thank you again.

Peace as always,
G

[newyorican]

18. It's just a fashion statement, eh?

Open ass, insert head...

[Rex]

19. That's like saying countries with huge amounts of oil

invite invasion. IMO, these people just LOVE blaming the victim while letting the assailant run free.

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

21. A really good post about rape.

No, not this one, this one:
A comment on rape and "she asked for it" by Pink Dream Poppies
Posted by ampersand
http://amptoons.poliblog.com/blog/000320.html

[True_Blue]

43. That was a very good post

Thanks for the link.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

47. thanks for the welcome

:hi:

[drfemoe]

22. It's complicated...

From the link >>
Modisane said when they saw girls in short skirts, they warned them that they might attract thugs.

There is good evidence that some women wear short skirts to attract "sexual interest".

**WARNING** Graphic Nudity **
edit: decided to remove link .. google images for "mini skirt" for examples

Are these women "inviting RAPE"? I think a RAPIST would say they are. I don't think so. But there is no doubt in my mind that their intention is to excite attraction. They still have the RIGHT to say who, when, where. Unfortunately the RAPIST doesn't see it that way.

[jdj]

30. How do you go from "sexual interest" to rape?

How do you know what the rapist thinks?

A rapist is gonna rape no matter what the victim is wearing, because the rapist is compelled to rape as an attempt to resolve internal conflict.

The blame the victim garbage you are espousing comes later, after the scum has been busted and is trying to get off; it's purposes are strictly to get a reduced sentence or none at all.

The other purpose of this clothing restriction garbage is to keep women in line by having a cultural implied threat about what will happen if they are loose sexually, and to make examples of women who are assumed to be, so that men can be assured of legitimate heirs. Clothing is a way to separate women used for sexual release from women used for breeding, and the threat of rape based on attire is a way to keep the breeding women in line. As I said in my previous post, your conclusions are an extrapolation from normal male response to a sexual signal, into the mind of a rapist who clearly is not "normal". Not that rape is not normal in some cultures; it gets normalized in very patriarchal, violent, mob rule cultures, but there is always that little cultural clothing line that women must toe, like the hijab, in order to keep themselves safe, and the fact that the rule always exists, and that there is so much variation, proves that it is the function of the rule and not the stipulations that matter.

The conclusions you have drawn show how very little you know about the actual statistical reality of who gets raped, and under what circumstances. Ignorance is bliss.

[drfemoe]

36. Excuse me?

I have espoused NO "blame the victim garbage".

I said >>>
...
Are these women "inviting RAPE"? I think a RAPIST would say they are. I don't think so. But there is no doubt in my mind that their intention is to excite attraction. They still have the RIGHT to say who, when, where. Unfortunately the RAPIST doesn't see it that way.

I suggest you may be misguided in whatever "conclusions" you have drawn about my "conclusions". If my post isn't clear that the RAPIST is to blame for RAPE, then mea culpa for mis-communicating. But THAT is my conclusion, and I suggested nothing other than that.

I find your post very confusing. But, please, do not accuse me of "blaming the victim"; which I have never, and will never, do.

[sandnsea]

46. Your last sentence

"Unfortunately the RAPIST doesn't see it that way."

The rapist will rape whatever he sees that fits into whatever power struggle he has going on in head. He will use clothing or "attraction" as an excuse afterwards, or has used it to justify his sickness. The way you worded this last sentence, it sounds like you're saying the rapist DOES rape because a woman is seeking to "excite attraction" and that's the rapist's motivation, "attraction". That isn't true and that's what I think the other poster was trying to point out.

[Guaranteed]

38. Did you read the post, or were you just looking

for someone to go off on?

It seems to me the poster made VERY clear that rape is not caused by what people wear. What's your problem?

[Dogmudgeon]

23. South African principals?

The primary method of keeping discipline in Sourth African schools involves whipping the errant children with a sjambok, which is a stiff, heavy leather strap.

And that's just for the white kids.

We're supposed to believe these "educators" have the best interests of their charges in mind? Sounds more like they are angry, repressed men who want women and children to bear the weight of their emotional burdens.

South Africa is still having a lot of trouble with violence, and both Mandela and Mbeki have been driven to distraction by it. In the context of such social upheaval, complaining about the clothing that girls wear is absurd.

Maybe they're doing it just to break the tension. Right?

--bkl

[iamjoy]

24. History of Skirts

Not on the topic of rape, but at oen time skirts were for modesty, as the skirts women wore were floor length and with several layers underneath, a man couldn't see the shape of a woman's legs. A women was a bit of a hussy if she showed her ankles.

In the Victorian era, modest people didn't even use the term "legs"
Even those things supporting a table were referred to as "limbs" and some people even put "clothes" on these.

Then, it became fashionable as women asserted their independence for skirts to start getting shorter and shorter...

[Ellen Forradalom]

25. Your reasons: 1) Peeing and 2) Peeing

Makes going dans la nature a little easier.

[dArKeR]

29. So then men should be wearing skirts too. Since it's easier

for a #1 and a #2 both female and male the same.

[Chovexani]

42. Men do wear skirts

And have worn them for thousands of years, all over the world...

Pants are really a johnny-come-lately sort of garment.

[TexasBushwhacker]

26. Well it shows that they're clueless in S. Africa too

If short skirts "invite" rape, then statistically there would be a higher proportion of "short skirt wearers" as rape victims than "long skirt wearers" or "pants wearers". That just isn't the case. Rape victims are all ages, races, shapes, sizes and even sexes.

If this headmaster thinks that short skirts in school uniforms invite rape, it sounds to me like it's time for a new headmaster. If I had a daughter in his school, I'd be more worried about what he was thinking about her than anyone else.

[jdj]

31. I'm so glad I don't have a daughter. And never will.

How do you explain this to her. I am conflicted about this whole issue, really. The headmaster's word choice was very unfortunate, what with the words "invite" rape. Invite RAPE? Oh, sure.

However, how does one explain to a child about rape, about the unspoken cultural rules, without implying culpability on her part. Say, it is not right, but this is the way it is. Saying you must toe the line with your clothing and signals, because if you don't you may get hurt, and then you will be blamed. Or tell her that you can be perfectly angelic in attire and attitude, and still get molested by the family doctor or dentist, or raped by the uncle or the brother, and no one will believe her, or risk breaking up the family (monetary support) to validate the truth of her rape. All these examples are extreme, but I know people each one has happened to, and I'm in there a couple of times as well.

And then to have the issue be said to be about clothing, over and over, as if human culture can't accept women have sexual desire, and that if a woman signals desire through clothing, men's natural response is outright rape, rather than the usual pick-up line and one-night stand it usually turns out to be. Humans are so primitive intellectually it is depressing.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

28. "Abusers themselves will tell you it is about power."

So is dictating to women how they should dress.

[hedgetrimmer]

32. this is bullshit

blame the victim and not the perpetrator. ho hum I hate this propoganda.....if there was no rape in someone's mind there would be no rape.

[happyslug]

33. Skirts came first, some history on Skirts and pants.

With both sexes adopting knee length skirts at the best choice of protection against nature (i.e. tree limbs, grasses etc, knee length would protect the thighs) and the temperature (A person's main areas of lost body heat is the head, the chest and the thighs). Thus by keeping your head, chest and thighs covered you are generally protected against most of the effect of cold temperatures (Through additional protection is needed when temperatures start to drop below the Freezing point of Water, i.e 32 Degrees Fahrenheit, thus people in Northern Climates tend to wear trousers while people in more Tempered and tropical climates tend to go with Skirts).

Thus this was the norm until the introduction of the horse. Pants gave extra protection to the thighs as one rode a horse. Thus Pants became the norm in Europe after about 400AD (Earlier in Persia, the Asian Steppes and Northern Europe). In fact one theory on the domestication of the Horse relates domestication with northern people who could trap the horse in the snow and domesticate it, since such people wore pants do to the cold weather when the horse was adopted as a riding animal pants also were adopted.

Now the American Indians also used pants before their adopted the Horse (Through the American Indians preferred a Long "Hunting Shirt" and "Leggings" to the true Trousers) but this is believed to be from coming over the Bering Sea land bridge at the end of the last Ice age and temperatures during that crossing was about the Freezing point of Water.

Thus the adoption of Trousers are related to expansion of the Population to areas when you had winter temperatures below freezing AND the adoption of the horse.

One comment on woman and skirts. In non-western Societies it was common for woman to use knee length skirts while European women stayed with ankle length for 2500 years (About 600 BC till about 1920). The reason for this seems to be to fold:

1. First the minor reason, Women tend to get yeast infections and one of the ways to reduce such infection is to permit as much air circulation in the thigh areas as possible, thus women tended to go with skirts even after men were wearing pants (Modern women hygienic items have eliminated this problem starting about 1920).

2. The major reason seems to be women and leg scars casued by Heavy hot cooking pots. Women were involved in Cooking the food for the family. Cooking required the use of heavy iron pots. The pots would have to be woman-handled in and out of the fireplace. This lead to burns on the thighs and legs. Thus western Women did not want to show their legs do to the scars (And this is true if only a sizable minority of women had such scars, as long as you had 25-33% of women refusing to wear knee length skirts, European women's skirt's length stayed at ankle length).

In the 1880s Asbestos was found to be an excellent insulator. With it and other similar insulations the modern Kitchen Stove and oven replaced the Kitchen Fireplace as the main mean of cooking. At the same time Steel started to replace much heavier Iron in Kitchen Ware (more in the large pots than in smaller skillets). Such stoves and steel kitchen ware reduced the number of burns and scars to the legs and thighs. It took awhile for this to take affect but by the 1920s you had over 90% of women with NO LEG OR THIGH Scars and the main objection to women showing their legs was gone.

Simply put between modern women hygiene products, The modern Kitchen Stove and Steel Kitchen ware, almost all women starting in the 1920s could show off their legs. This lead to the short skirts of the 1920s and the modern trend of women's dress length going up and down.

Since the 1920s the rule of thumb has been women wear short skirts doing economic boom times and knee length skirts during bad times (With women's pants suits coming into play as replacements for the knee length Skirt starting during the Recession of the early 1970s).

The best explanation for this is that when men have money they are looking for mates based on such women ability to have children (Studies have shown men view women more sexy, when such women are more likely of getting pregnant and caring a child to term). On the other hand in bad economic times men are looking for women to help them in the financial aspects of a marriage (i.e. can she provide some of the support for the family?). Similar observations have been made of Playboy Centerfolds, they tend to be sexiest doing good times, but more athletic during hard economic times (i.e. men place a higher value on women for their ability to get pregnant during periods when men believe their can support the women on their own, but the same men put a higher value on women who can help them support the family when times are tough).

Thus the real test is NOT skirts going up or down, but how practical is the length? The less practical the dress (Do to the dress's sexiness) the less men are looking at his date as financial partner (as opposed to a sexual partner). Women seem to pick up and follow these trends. In the last few years women's fashion have been more practical than sexy (Please note I am NOT going by Paris fashion but what people have been buying a wearing, practical is in).

As to rape and sexually revealing clothing, every study I have read or heard of indicates NO Relationship. As other in this thread have indicated Rape is an Attack NOT an reaction to sexual provocation of a woman's body. Personally When I have seen a woman who I am sexually attracted to the last thing I want is to rape her, Seduction is so much more fun not only for me but the women (And the more the women like the sex the more I find I like it). The point is, sex and rape has little to do with each other other than rape is using sex as a weapon.

[Forkboy]

34. Well then my bare knuckles are inviting a brawl with these clowns!

:mad:

[mainer]

44. And fancy merchandise in stores invites theft. eom

[Tight_rope]

45. Nothing to see hear...moving along...S. Africa was all I needed to read!