Clip used in 'Fahrenheit 9/11' upsets local TV station

[WillyT]

<snip>

While an appearance by a local TV reporter in the controversial film "Fahrenheit 9/11" has yielded shouts of recognition among local movie-goers, it's less delightful for managers at WNEM TV-5. "All I can tell you is we're totally surprised that clips from our local newscast were used," said Ian Rubin, news director for WNEM, the CBS affiliate based in Saginaw. "We're looking into it right now as a potential copyright violation," Rubin said.

And...

Flint resident Lila Lipscomb, who is prominently featured in "Fahrenheit 9/11," has seen the movie three times, and plans to see it again. Moore focuses on Lipscomb's reaction to the death of her son, Army Sgt. Michael Pedersen, 26, who was killed while fighting in Iraq on April 2, 2003.

Lipscomb, 50, is shown putting up her American flag, crying as she reads the last letter her son sent home to the family and visiting the White House lawn, where she pours out her angst and sorrow over her son's death.

"I feel so blessed to be able to have my gut-wrenching feelings be able to touch so many people," she said. "Literally, people are calling my home and giving me messages. Men - men - are telling me how when they left the movie, they were just sobbing."

<snip>

Link: http://www.mlive.com/news/bctimes/index.ssf?/base/news-3/1088522102236720.xml

And blessings to you too Lila Lipscomb. And peace as well.

[DrWho]

1. ---

"We're looking into it right now as a potential copyright violation," Rubin said.


Keep on looking.

[Cocoa]

3. fair use

I'm sure Moore knows his stuff when it comes to copyright laws.

[hlthe2b]

5. yes... I can't imagine with his experience that he doesn't

Can someone remind me about the spaghetti dinner scene? I've forgotten.

[Cocoa]

10. asking locals about possible nearby terrorist targets

one woman says "we have a spaghetti dinner in here on Tuesdays."

[hlthe2b]

37. Oh, yeah... that was great!

[cosmicone]

54. Off topic -- does anyone know ....

what that wingnut woman said to Lila Lipscomb in Washington? It happened fast and I didn't catch her exact words but they seemed to hurt badly.

[WillyT]

68. Something Like, "It's All Staged..." !!!

She seemed to imply that the death and destruction in Iraq was all being hyped out of proportion.

Lila reminded the idiot, that her son wasn't some prop on a stage. He was real, and now he is dead.

:grr::nuke::mad:

Shut the woman up pretty good too. She went off mumbling to herself.

Love ya, Lila!!!

:loveya:

[cosmicone]

81. Thank you! n/t

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

71. Also: Demanded "Where was he killed?!" (implying she was lying)

And after she was TOLD WHERE he was killed (Kharbala? sp?), as Lila walked away instead of SLUGGING her, said "Blame Al Qaeda!"

[catzies]

29. That was in Tappahannock Virginia. Locals puzzled why they were

alerted. (Confusion arose between Rappahanock and Tappahanock.)

[hlthe2b]

38. YES.. now I remember... thanks!

[Corgigal]

18. It's called

public domain freep.

[iam]

87. DrWho?

Shouldn't it be DrWhom?

[Cocoa]

2. that was one of the funniest sequences

I'm sure the "spaghetti dinner" clip was out of context, but it was funny as hell. :-)

[Wickerman]

4. Uh, I'm sure Moore has a rights and permissions flunky

who secured all that. That station most likely has a contract with an agency who handles that stuff or a parent company who deals with it. Just another local yokel covering his ass or someone who is clueless. I am confident that Mr. Rubin will get back to us when its shown that Moore properly acquired the clips.

[DrWho]

6. off topic

can somebody post this maybe

I would like to get most of this debunked if possible, especially the Saudi part.
Yeah I know it's faux news.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124079,00.html

For instance, in one often-showed clip, Moore claims that President Bush was on vacation 42 percent of the time during his first several months in office — but that estimation included weekends at Camp David, a common practice for presidents. Without those days figured in, Bush actually spent 13 percent of his time on vacation.

The movie also criticizes Bush for staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001.

However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana.

In "Fahrenheit 9/11" (search) Moore also claims that the White House approved plans for planes to pick up relatives of Usama Bin Laden right after the attacks. But according to terrorism czar Richard Clarke (search), he alone approved the Saudi flights.

In addition, Moore says that the departing Saudis were not properly processed by the FBI when leaving the country. That too is contradicted by the Sept. 11 commission, which said the Saudis were properly interviewed.

Finally, Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company.

Moore also doesn't mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, which twice met with Taliban members — in 1997 and 1998.

[thebigidea]

7. oh boy, I hope when you are able to post...

... you'll post many more fun, informative Fox News threads!

Yay! Fox News! Yay!

If you REALLY needed the "Saudi part" debunked, you would've read the zillion other threads about it.

[DrWho]

8. i don';t

want to post any Faux News stories.

I just want to debunk these assertions.

And I need some help doing it that's all.

[thebigidea]

9. Mmm hmmmm. Ya don't say. Mmm hmmmm.

[DrWho]

11. if i am

if i am here a week from now, you will see how much of a bush hater i am

give me some time before you makes assumptions about my motives

sheesh.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rose Siding]

21. Here are some counter arguments

in case you are really interested:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hyphenate]

19. You won't get that kind of help here

Why don't you go over to the Free Republic and ask for their help in debunking it all? After all, I'm sure they've been salivating since F 9/11 came out to try and find something false in the film. They'd be happy to blow some steam out their ears while they mull over your comments.

[juajen]

36. Well, for one thing,

People on DU generally check out many news sources daily. Usually this includes Buzzflash.com which will give you a wealth of information; also the BBC and CBC and Aljazeera websites. IOW, you are expected to do your own research.

Also check out takebackthemedia; truthout.com; talkingpointsmemo.com. These are just a few sites. DUers also check out opposition sites regularly. These include, to name a few, freerepublic.com; thedrudgereport.com; and, many others, which I will not publicise. We are an informed bunch. My advice, read a lot.

We rarely debunk articles from "the other side" per se, though we certainly discuss it, because most of it has already been debunked in the articles we read daily. "Newbies" regularly site republican sources and emails and want our "help" debunking. We have learned that this is a way for a freeper to get his point across without getting tombstoned, so, we rarely will help out someone with a low post count whose motives we suspect, whether right or wrong. IOW, low count posts simply mean you have not proven your motives to the community at large.

The above information notwithstanding, WELCOME to DU. Happy posting.

[Wickerman]

15. I won't be posting that, but thanks for, er, drawing my attention

to, uh, it.

The rate of vacation for Bush was made with same comparisons as with other presidents - Bush wins!

The 9-11 commission and me and a whole lot of others disagree.

The Saudi exit claims have been debunked - (search) michaelmoore.com

Bush/Unocal - what's the diff? Plus, Bush met for commerce, Clinton's people to discuss political/threat issues

edited to say Clinton's people.

[DrWho]

17. thanks

that's all I was looking for

sheesh, some of you are as paranoid as the neocon nazis

3. DID THESE INDIVIDUALS GET SPECIAL TREATMENT BY LAW ENFOCEMENT?

Yes, according to Jack Cloonan, a former senior agent on the joint FBI-CIA Al-Qaeda task force, who is interviewed in Fahrenheit 9/11. Cloonan raises questions about the type of investigation to which these individuals were subjected, finding it highly unusual that in light of the seriousness of the attack on 9/11, bin Laden family members were allowed to leave the country and escape without anyone getting their statements on record in any kind of formal proceeding, and with little more than a brief interview.

Most Saudis who left were not interviewed at all by the FBI. In fact, of the 142 Saudis on these flights, only 30 were interviewed. National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12

[WillyT]

22. Welcome To DU DrWho !!!

:bounce::toast::bounce:

I'm willin ta give ya a chance here. It's just that we're all a little gun-shy of posters with no profiles and single digit posts. Been a loooonngg Spring (let alone 3 1/2 years), ya know???

Anywho, welcome!

:hi:

[DrWho]

24. I usually just read

But I wanted to debunk this Faux article as fast as I could, so I was relying on some thoughtful individuals here to help me with that.

And thanks for the links to Moores site, I just didn't realize it was already commented on.

Besides, even if the 9-11 Commission has a different take, the report came out after the movie was realeased in Cannes, so it can't be a lie in that respect.

[Shadder]

41. First of all, Welcome

Glad you found this place. I'm sure you will get use to it and fit in.

If I could make one suggestion, don't bother with Fox News at all. Far as I'm concerned the best way to debunk it is to realize that it came from Fox.

[pauliedangerously]

25. Way to hang in there, Doc

Come on, people...with a screen name like Doctor Who, you ought to give the guy a chance.

He may or may not be what he says he is, but to be so reactionary towards this unknown person is...well...kind of freeperish.

You've metaphorically sent this guy to gitmo.

[DrWho]

27. You've metaphorically sent this guy to gitmo.

I will escape, give me some time! :)

[pauliedangerously]

33. I have no doubt of that...

You handled the flamers with the grace that befits a person of quality, and it seems that you have already escaped.

Welcome to DU!!!

:toast:

[Guaranteed]

30. Seriously.

This ain't justice, folks.

[CJCRANE]

26. Wasn't there another report recently

that said that in fact even more Saudis had left the country on chartered flights around that time than was initially reported? Like 100 more or something (I prob read about it on DU somewhere).

[hlthe2b]

40. Too much bombardment by disruptors, DrWho... don't take it personally

Somedays we get a little overly reactive from the tedium of dealing with those who just want to flamebait. Welcome to DU!

[sendero]

65. If you knew....

... how many dumb drooling freepers come here every day and *try* to act like normal human beings, you'd understand why some are "paranoid".

Welcome to DU and rest assured, we love new blood with common goals!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

73. It's the combo of low post and posting a Fox thread in your first 20.

The thinking being, you slink back to FR or CU or whereever, like, heewack! Those DUer's couldn't debunk my RW propaganda from the mighty Fox News! Republicans Rule! Wolverines!

Get it?

In otherwords, if you post or start threads about non RW talking points earlier on people will be a bit less triggerhappy on ya.

[TiredTexan]

77. What happens is that we

get, unfortunately, a lot of folks who post conservative articles here, and ask for debunking. Then the same folks spend their time justifying what was in the original article and posting matters that are negative to Kerry and Dems.

I think you stumbled into getting DUers suspicious of you. Sorry. We're all suspicious and punch drunk, so to speak, given the attack dogs of the right that frequently post here with this tactic.

Welcome aboard. You'll find we're really good folks, really.

[Guaranteed]

16. #1-

He was still on vacation 42% of the time. It doesn't matter where he was.

#2- Oh, the vice chairman says such and such about Bush wasting seven minutes while we're being attacked on 9/11. While this isn't our strongest point against Bush, people can form their own opinions about whether or not they would want those seven minutes back. Save the Pentagon, anyone? The facts are the facts, and you don't refute them with opinion.

#3- Richard Clarke was a White House staff member. Therefore, the White House approved the Saudi flights out of the US.

#4- SOME of the Saudis were interviewed before leaving the country- and they were token interviews (according to Moore). Keep in mind some of these guys were bin Laden's family members- these guys, ALL of which were allowed to leave the country two days after the fact, before anyone else.

#5- Oh, yes, the California energy company invited the Taliban delegation to Texas. Genius. Did they see the Golden Gate Bridge?

[louis-t]

69. Good job BullGoose

and I might add that it's not the wasted seven minutes that bothers me. It's the look on his face, the fact that NO ONE asked him anything, he neither asked nor directed anyone to do anything during that time. This was the leader of the free world waiting for someone to tell him what to do. It mirrors the total story of this man's life. Faux leader, faux businessman.

[LiberalBushFan]

76. also, as for #3

check michaelmoore.com for a Richard Clarke quote showing that it wasn't only him who approved it

[Thor_MN]

78. #2...

If the country is under attack, is it wise to be showing the President on live national TV and leave him sitting there? If he really was a target as some of *'s admin has claimed - getting him OFF the TV, AWAY from the school children is an absolute priority. He should have been hustled out of the room, into the limo and onto Airforce One as soon as they knew what was happening.

I watched him live that morning. I was going into work late because I had to take my pickup in to be looked at by a claims adjuster after I was rear-ended. I knew exactly what school he was at - they kept popping it up, in case you just tuned in. Some stations had him on a split-screen...

I remember his first comments... "This will not stand." I remember thinking "What a dumbass thing to say when a tall building has been damaged." It wasn't all that long later that they collapsed.

[aquart]

28. Hamilton is being totally disingenuous.

First, the kids aren't so delicate their lives would be marred by an adult disappointing them. There is such a thing as priorities.

Second, it's not an either/or situation. Bush didn't have to "rush" out of the room. He could have said he was sorry, but there was something only the President could do, and he had to go do it. Or lots of other excuses. And gotten his ass out of there.

I bought that explanation for about ten minutes, then reasoned thought took over.

[DrWho]

31. Just look into his eyes

"I bought that explanation for about ten minutes, then reasoned thought
took over."

The eyes are the gateway to the soul, so they say.

Just looking into the eyes of bush on that fateful day is enough to convince we had at best a confused coward, indecisive and what have you.

[Old and In the Way]

42. Welcome On-board.

Here's a thought. After the 2nd hit was announced by Card, how would Bush have been able to guage the magnitude of the attack? Why didn't he assume there were 50 hijacked planes flying into key US targets throughout the US? He was mighty serene given the length and depth of the attack was still being assessed, digested and understood.

[fob]

45. Hey OAITW, here's another thought...

The spin has been that he sat there on his ass because he didn't want to startle the children. Really? Is that look on his face of concern for those kids? What do you think will be the affect when those kids are older and curious and find out through a google search that at the time they were in second grade the president sat there while America was under attack. You think there may be a chance that some of them may feel some guilt that bush* has USED THEM as a scapegoat for why HE did NOTHING!! To say nothing of the potential THREAT to them while an apparent attack was in action.

Concern for the kids, indeed...

[Old and In the Way]

67. A coupe of points.

(1) 93 was delayed 20 minutes on the tarmac in Newark.....77 looked like it a did a mighty funny course jag, turning 90 degrees towards, then 90 degrees away, then 90 degrees away, then 90 degrees towards.....essentially bank on the original route away from Washington, before turning back once again. Coordinated attacks? Anyway, 93 seems to be the late plane, disrupting 77's plan.

20 minutes earlier (on-time) puts the Washington attack on just before Bush gets to Tucker......

(2) He has the "I wonder what the American people are thinking right now.....where are those 2 other planes?....it wasn't supposed to go down like this....OK, what am I supposed to be doing now, anyway?" look on his face.

[fob]

89. Holy shit.

You're right. He has the look like he just got told that only 2 of the 4 planes reached there target, so just keep going.

I've seen many descriptions of the look on bush*s face, but yours fits perfectly. He was expecting to get the call from Card that "It's all over, all 4 planes were a go, now wait 30 seconds and make your dramatic exit" and instead got the "It's still on, sit there 'til you get the high sign". That matches perfectly with ari fleischer's look from F911.

[TankLV]

47. The look of paralized panic.

Completely in WAY over his head.

I'd bet my life he shit a pantload at that time!

[PaDUer]

56. You're right about that..

he looked like he shit his pants and was looking around to see if he was being watched by a ter-ist..Wondering WHO did it and what's the people going to say when he knew the first tower had been hit, then the 2nd, and he knew he had to get out of town running like a scared bunny! And this is the one who pretends to be the pResident of the US. The entire world knows he's bad news!

[Mechatanketra]

53. You captured the two basic flaws in this argument, Aquart.

Every single time I hear a wingnut talk about the Goat, it's always that same dingy straw man dragged out: "What, was he supposed to run out of the room screaming like a little girl? He was trying to keep the kids calm."

The problem coming down twofold:
1) You're at work, in a business meeting, and someone comes in telling you that your wife or kid was in an auto accident and is in the hospital. What do you do? I'd put real money down that for 99% of us, the first reaction is exactly the same: a quiet but firm "I'm sorry, family emergency, I have to go." Not panic, not paralysis, but natural rational reaction. Pretending that this isn't the default response is just plain silly.

2) Fine -- we'll forward the critics the idea that there was nothing else the President could have done that wouldn't have freaked out the kids. So? These same people who claim to believe it is absolutely justified for hundreds of our soldiers and thousands of innocent civilians (including children) to die in Afghanistan and Iraq to possibly prevent a potential future terrorist attack think Bush was obligated not to risk merely disturbing a classroom full of children to thwart a real, known terrorist attack? My Bob, I didn't know Florida was so special -- apparently we're raising a top secret race of atomic supermen down there or something.

Like you said: priorities. It shouldn't even take 10 minutes to dispense with this load of horsepuck.

[whatelseisnew]

70. hearty applause to you

well said, points excellently made !

[jpak]

34. What president in the era of ICBMs would sit around for nearly ten minutes

after being told: "Mr. President, America is under attack".

Answer: none - except for George W. Bush.

The flight time of an ICBM from Eurasia is ~30 minutes. It takes at least 10-15 minutes to confirm that an attack is underway and inform the National Command Authority.

The flight time of a submarine launched ballistic missile is ~15 minutes (or less) if launched from the north Atlantic off the Eastern Seaboard.

Ten minutes is an eternity in the nuclear age.

When Lt. John F. Kerry's swift boat flotilla was attacked in Vietnam, did he sit around for 10 minutes reading a fucking children's book?????

Fuck no.

Wounded and under enemy fire, he rescued one of his crewman and successfully extracted his boats from the ambush.

This November we elect our Commander in Chief for the next four years.

We have a choice between:

A. a clueless AWOL Fratboy (Bush)

or

B. A Man (Kerry) who demonstrated true courage and leadership under enemy fire.

The correct choice is obvious...

[4_Legs_Good]

35. Expect to see a lot of new posters with questions!

When something like F911 comes out, we're bound to get lots of new people drawn to our site eager to learn what else they've been missing out out that the Right Wing Corporate Media Machine hasn't told them. Some will be die hard liberals, others may be FauxNews refugees.

Welcome DrWho!

As far as the Saudis go, Moore gets a lot of his inspiration/information from "House of Bush/House of Saud" by Craig Unger. It's a very informative book.

david

[Enraged_Ape]

43. That's right. We need to cut newbies here some major slack.

A :toast: to our friend Dr. Who!

Don't get intimidated by people who challenge our usual line of discourse if they're polite. Inform them. That's all it takes. If they're not polite...well, have at it, then. I think Dr. Who will be with us for a while.

[The_Casual_Observer]

49. All I have to say is that when somebody posts the same

message in two threads, and it's a very carefully constructed and lengthy set of fox talking points, and the poster feigns total naivety on the subject, it makes me wonder.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. Spider-sense tingles! (nt)

[SeiowMao]

52. dnvechoes is correct

I read DU daily, and rarely post. I appreciate that you people keep me informed like many other sites mentioned here. However, F911 will definitely bring new people to you and the other sites.

I think you should be more than willing to educate them. So what if they might be a freeper - they need the truth just like everyone else. And if you can help them get there faster - all the better.

[PaDUer]

58. Disney's coming out with their movie

to show how great Amerikkka is..saw it on the news today while at the hospital. What a joke!

[liveoaktx]

39. WaPost article from June 2004 says he spent over 40 percent of his

presidency on vacay. What I find interesting in the quote below is that he has taken 33 trips to Crawford since becoming president. Did he fly Air Force One each time there and back? So how much did WE pay for his trips to Texas? How many vacations do YOU get every year to go somewhere else? That doesn't include the 78 trips to Camp David... and did he also FLY Air Force One to Maine for those 5 trips?
This also doesn't include all his trips campaigning this year, such as being on the Big Boy Bus driving around the country (well, flying between each trip and then making it LOOK like he was on a bus) or double-dipping some political fundraising act with official business.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A62524-2004Apr8¬Found=true

This is Bush's 33rd visit to his ranch since becoming president. He has spent all or part of 233 days on his Texas ranch since taking office, according to a tally by CBS News. Adding his 78 visits to Camp David and his five visits to Kennebunkport, Maine, Bush has spent all or part of 500 days in office at one of his three retreats, or more than 40 percent of his presidency.

[TankLV]

48. Not to mention the vacation he's at every single day in OUR White House.

You KNOW the dickhead is the "real" president!

[Maeve]

44. See this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1886385&mesg_id=1886574

Also, DU rules ask that you limit your quotes to 4 paragraphs of a story--copyright laws.

[DrWho]

50. will do

"Also, DU rules ask that you limit your quotes to 4 paragraphs of a story--copyright laws."

Sorry. Will keep that in mind from now on.

[not systems]

46. About the 42% vacation...

Moore says "According to the Washington Post Bush was on
vacation 42% of the time."

So tell Fox to take it up with the Washington Post.

[Ganja Ninja]

51. Here's the problem. Nobody wants to spend time debunking FOX.

They have no and I mean NO credibility, ZERO, ZIP, NADA! So give it up.

[faithnotgreed]

59. im pretty new here too dr who. i know it can sometimes be tough

because on forums like this there are always people who just want to incite but i appreciated that you tried to respond maturely and sincerely.

welcome here and just know that like other people have already said - its been a long time of hellish policies by this administration.
the regulars here have clearly put so much energy into helping us new people, putting out troll fires, engaging in great ideas and discussion and research and otherwise blowing off needed steam, that sometimes people are understandably suspicious esp responding to anything like fox.

i mean they often arent even worth spending time on but hey - they did give f 9/11 a great review (roger friedman)!

thanks again for hanging in and hope youll stick around. i sure hope youll find better sources of news though!

[Karenina]

74. Thank you for your understanding, Fng

"its been a long time of hellish policies by this administration..."
*HUNDREDS* OF THOUSANDS DEAD (in that figure I include AMERICANS who have died completely under the radar screen because if they served in Viet Nam or GW1 and are homeless and on the streets or poor and have NO ACCESS to health care - it's their OWN FAULT because ya know they really need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, never mind their boots ain't got no fucking straps, maimed, families in stress beyond belief, the American reputation in tatters, folks SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF WORLDWIDE because of the LIES Faux News has proffered... My apologies if we're a bit "edgy."

And Welcome to DU!!! :toast:

[Doctor Smith]

61. Unlike the folks at Fox News, I can do grade school arithmetic.

If he was on vacation 42% of the time, including weekends, he would be on vacation 18.8% of the time, not including weekends.

[kayell]

88. Equivelent to almost 10 weeks vacation per year

not counting those pesky weekends. And this at a time when the country is in deep crisis and at war.

Those CEO jobs really have the perks, don't they?

Plus, doesn't our fearless leader lay off about 3 pm for a nice nap?

[Stargleamer]

62. "but that estimation included weekends at Camp David. . .

a common practice for presidents." As another poster has said, it doesn't matter where you are, but if you are on vacation or not. Carter once had Sadat in one room at Camp David, and Begin in another, but none of three were on vacation at the time. Indeed, because of what happenened there, Carter would have won a Nobel Peace Prize, had he been eligible (some quirky rules made him ineligible). It looks that when Bush has been at Camp David, it's been to practice his golf swing, i.e. a vacation.

Moore has Ungar in the film to show that the inteviews were conducted cursorily rather than properly, perhaps you can reference Ungar's book, or the Web, to find arguments for this.

Hamilton (as well as freepers) sets up a false dichotomy as others here have pointed out. No one is saying that Bush had to flee the room in panic--just simply tell the children that an emergency has come up, and apologize and calmly head for the door.

Besides these charges, Fox News had others on the news broadcast last night. Don't expect that you can keep up with and respond to all the Right throws at this movie. You have other better ways to spend your time.

[peacetalksforall]

72. The way I remember the Clarke paarticipation from his book and his

interviews....he refused to authorize them and passed the decision up the ladder. When given an OK - a person could say the order came from him - but he didn't make the order.

[w4rma]

82. The country is under attack and instead of getting on top of the situation

55 seconds after hearing that America was under Attack.


4 minutes, 35 seconds after hearing that America was under Attack.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm

…
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."
…
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html

[trogdor]

84. Fox News: Baaaaaaaaaaaaa

Incident: Bush staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001.

Fox's "strawman" reaction: Rushing out of the classroom in a tizzy.

Proper "presidential" reaction: Say something like, "excuse me, something has come to my attention that is very important and requires my immediate attention, so I I"m afraid I must cut this visit short. I'm very sorry."

[SemperEadem]

90. Most cities have a service which records off air

all you do is call, pay for the usage and it's yours to use.

That news director must be new or ignorant.. bet his newscasts reflect the same.

[bluestateguy]

32. The establishment keeps on trying to destroy this movie

Disney, the FEC, a "grass roots" conservative group, local TV stations, computer pecker columnists, the corporate media, but we will not be silenced. I am already making plans to see it again.

[funnymanpants]

57. some criticisms valid

The few reviews I've read so far have confirmed what I felt about the move: the first half was rather bizzarre, but the second half pretty damn good.

See:

http://antiwar.com/justin/

And

http://www.juancole.org

(Scroll down to get the movie review.)

Note that the first review is by the libertarian Justin Raimondo, who is bizzarre himself and loves to bash leftists such as myself. However, I liked this review a lot.

The second is by Juan Cole, an indespensible critic of the Iraq war.

Regarding Faux news: was that news or an editorial? It certainly shouldn't have passed as news.

Others have debunked some of the claims. For example, stating that it is unfactual to blame Bush for sitting in the classroom for seven minutes is stupid. He really sat there. You can judge yourself whether he should have or not, but don't try to smear Moore on a factually basis.

Also, my understanding is that Camp David is often used as a second vacation home for presidents.

[Sterling]

63. This reviewer sounds like an ignorant ass.

"The movie starts out on election night, 2000, and reiterates the mythology of a "stolen" election the way a Catholic might recite the Stations of the Cross. The Supreme Court. Blah blah blah. Jeb Bush. Blah blah blah. Gore really took Florida, but the racist Republicans threw out the black vote and the rest is history. In light of how Moore later shows his admiration for the courage and innocence of the people who serve in our armed forces, it's odd that he doesn't mention the organized efforts by the Democrats to disqualify as many military ballots as possible. "


If this is what he thinks of what happened in Florida he’s an idiot.

These things happened yet he refers to them collectively as "mythology".

[54anickel]

80. Thanks for the links. I had seen the Juan Cole one but not the one

by Justin Raimondo. Libertarians do tend to make for a good read, a bit bizzarre, but always interesting. That's just my take - I'm one of those that enjoys reading LaRouche - LaRouche makes points that I tend to agree with, and then whamo, bizzarro, WTF. Keeps me on my toes. B-)

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

60. Hey, Ian of WNEM! "Cheney Off - sh*thead". Quit crying, baby.

Whhaaaaaaaa...that mean 'o Michael Moore is revealing the truth with our own video...

JB

[NashVegas]

64. They Should Be Upset

MM showed the nation what a few whores will do for ratings.

[AP]

66. Newsworthiness exception. Nothing's more newsworthy than the news.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K8-EEE]

79. We're Looking Into It....BS!!!

it would take about 5 minutes to determine if they had a right to use it or not. Just another piece of shit to throw and see if it sticks.

Scream accusations, whisper retractions, the same old ploy.

[rocktivity]

83. LILA LIPSCOMB on Air America Radio 12:23 EST

:headbang:
rocknation

[xxqqqzme]

85. Moore on Tavis Smiley

last night. Tavis asked him about this very thing, as in....U have some incredible footage from other sources...how did U get permission to use all those different sources? Moore said sometime they paid 4 it; sometimes it was granted; some sources offered it free; some was unsolicited - he said some of the soldier interviews were from soldiers stationed in Iraq and the footage just turned up in his mailbox.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

86. Would this happen to be a Sinclair Broadcasting Station???

[Occulus]

91. Only one thing to say to this one...

WWWAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!! WWWAAAHHHH, WWWAAHHH, WWWWWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!

Bawling like the babies they are. Clips from their newscasts are being shown nationwide and this station has the arrogance to complain about it.

Maybe they feel the clips make them look bad. Noooo, they themselves make them look bad.