Alabama Tied in Knots by Tax Vote

[kskiska]

Riley Stuns GOP by Stumping for Hike

PELHAM, Ala. -- Amid suburban sprawl that has obliterated farms and timber stands and even a hideout where the Ku Klux Klan plotted the infamous Birmingham church bombing, Alabama Republican Party chairman Marty Connors paused on a recent day over hash browns and eggs in a local Cracker Barrel, struggling to make sense of the latest turn in Alabama politics.

"We've got a conservative, evangelical Christian,Republican governor," he said, enunciating each word as if to get his head around the details, "trying to get a massive turnout of black voters to pass a tax increase so he can raise taxes on Republican constituents."

In a stunning subplot to the fiscal crises roiling the states, Alabama Gov. Bob Riley (R) -- who for three terms in Congress boasted that he never voted for a tax increase and was elected governor on a promise not to raise taxes -- is proposing to raise state taxes by a record $1.2 billion, eight times the largest previous increase and almost twice what is needed to close a $675 million budget deficit.

(snip)

The born-again Baptist governor is telling voters in this Bible Belt state that their tax system, which imposes an effective rate of 3 percent on the wealthiest Alabamians and 12 percent on the poorest, is "immoral" and needs repair. "When I read the New Testament, there are three things we're asked to do: That's love God, love each other and take care of the least among us," Riley said in his office in the antebellum state Capitol.

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4130-2003Aug16.html

[Davis_X_Machina]

1. After 20-30 years...

...of various pastors telling this sinful world that low marginal tax rates on upper income taxpayers are part of the core belief system of Christianity, and necessary to man's salvation, no wonder the poor man's confused.

"We've got a conservative, evangelical Christian, Republican governor," he said, enunciating each word as if to get his head around the details, "trying to get a massive turnout of black voters to pass a tax increase so he can raise taxes on Republican constituents."

It sounds like the poor man's trying to work out which is the bigger sin, being a liberal, encouraging turnout, encouraging black turnout, being black, being black and actually voting, being a Democrat, or what.

[BadGimp]

2. well said...

[TennesseeWalker]

4. Wow!

Sundquist should have used this arguement in Tennessee a few years back...although, to be fair, our tax system isn't THAT unbalanced toward the rich....but it's bad enough, since all we have is a sales tax, and rich men and poor men pay the same price for toilet paper.

[aquart]

13. No, they don't.

Rich men can afford to buy in bulk.

[jody]

14. And poor people learn to use discarded paper eom

[AP]

15. Our tax system is extremely regressive, and very few people

notice. In fact, I'd say that making the tax system is the number one most important policy goal of Republicans, and they've achieved that goal for effectively and very covertly.

[Bandit]

36. "so he can raise taxes on Republican constituents."

Oh if that were only true. It will be a tax increase for everyone not just Red-Ink republican constituents.

[Wwagsthedog]

3. Never Trust a Born Again Anything

Especially a president!
:argh:

[LEFTofLEFT]

5. I love it

Hope it passes

even a wingnut gets one right every once in a while

[LizW]

7. They didn't get it totally right

Unfortunately, the writers of Riley's tax package didn't take into consideration a 1978 amendment called the "lid law" that places a cap on the total amount of combined state and local property taxes that can be collected yearly on a piece of property. In some areas of the state, those which have passed higher local property taxes to fund education (because state taxes have historically been so low), cities and school systems will actually LOSE a large amount of local tax dollars if the amendment passes.

I'm sick about this. I have no problem voting to tax myself more to make the tax system more fair and to improve education statewide. But how can I vote to pay more taxes AND strip millions in funding from my children's schools? What makes it more galling is that the two richest cities and school systems in the state, Mountain Brook and Vestavia Hills, were exempted from the Lid Law back in '78.

I'm frustrated and angry and I feel guilty. I was a strong supporter of the amendment and now I find out it has what amounts to a poison pill.

I will say this about Riley's plan to promote passage. Using the "good Christian" angle is genius in Alabama. I'm not even an "good Christian" and I feel guilty as hell.:(

[Stuckinthebush]

10. Liz...I'm in Homewood

We have a load of property tax revenue going to the schools. This is very, very hard to swallow. I really want to support this tax package, but this new twist will hurt my children's school system - evidently a lot.

I haven't been keeping up with the Birmingham News, but what is the fix here? This will kill his package. Has the legislature discussed putting an ammendment on the ballot to eliminate the 78 amendment?

I guess Riley will have to go back to Siegelman's lottery idea, because this won't pass.

[LizW]

19. The two proposed fixes I've heard about

are 1.) a new constitutional amendment to exempt the affected municipalities from the lid law and 2.) a "hold harmless" provision to be passed by the legislature guaranteeing all the affected municipalities that the leg. will vote to give them the same amount of money that they were collecting in local property taxes.

I went to the city council meeting Thursday night (I'm in Hoover, by the way) and Rep. Mark Gaines spoke on those two possibilities. He said quite frankly and bluntly that they would never happen. He said that a new constitutional amendment must pass by a super-majority of the legislature and then by a vote of the people. He said old, ingrained rural vs. urban rivalries would come into play and that the rural legislators would never vote to exempt Birmingham, Hoover and Homewood. He also said that even if it did somehow pass the legislature, the business communities would fight tooth and nail against having the "lid" lifted and the exemption would never pass a vote of the people.

Regarding the "hold harmless" provision, Gaines said that we might get the money for a year, maybe two, but that after that the legislators would conveniently forget why it was being done and start portraying it as pork for the already wealthy and would cut it out. I believe him, since that is exactly what happened a few years ago when the equity funding situation took millions away from the wealthier schools systems.

The real killer about this glitch in the law is that it hurts us forever. When we lost state funding in the equity funding lawsuit, we were able to make it up by voting to tax ourselves higher locally. This amendment forcloses that possibility. The mayor of Hoover said that at most we MIGHT be able to squeeze on 2.4 mils in local taxes if this passes, and maybe not even that much. So unless the "lid" is raised or lifted entirely, we are forclosed FOREVER from locally raising taxes for education (or other city needs, for that matter). Instead, we send all the money to Montgomery, and they decide how much we need.

I am SO bummed about this, because there are many good things in the amendment, but I can't vote for it.

[AlabamaYankee]

32. PLEASE Vote For It Anyway!

Overlooking the taxation cap was a major mistake, but the cost of the Tax Reform measures's defeat will be incalculable. Not only will the poor be hurt immediately, the legislature will be in control of any new taxation measures. The sales tax - already waay too high - will be raised, and the various accountability measures meant to rein in the legislature and bring oversight to the schools will be gone forever. Besides, it's my understanding that the cap won't be reached for a couple of years, which gives them time to fix it.

It will be a lot easier to fix and adjust the tax reform package after it's passed than it will be to ever put forward any serious reform for the next twenty years.

[AP]

16. Property tax has become one of the most regressive taxes because

so few businesses pay property tax. When you hear there's a property tax increase, almost all that increase is born by middle class individuals and very little of it by the richest citizens -- the corporations.

So long as the property tax limit is offset by real income tax on corporations, it's probably and OK bargain.

[w4rma]

6. If the GOP kick, Gov. Riley out of his party, I'd be happy to welcome him

into the Democratic Party. :)

[priller]

8. This is so typical:

But the Christian Coalition of Alabama, which opposes all tax increases, staked out the other side. "We applaud tax relief for the poor. You'll find most Alabamians have got a charitable heart; they want to do that," said the group's president, John Giles. "They just don't want it coming out of their pocket."

Oh yes! Charity is a fine thing, they applaud it, just so long as the wealthy Christians aren't made to do it.

And you knew this one was coming:

"Alabama needs to raise some revenue; there's no question about that," said the GOP's Connors. "But this is not a tax increase any longer. This is a massive redistribution of wealth."

What he really means is it's a massive redistribution of wealth downward to the poor! Can't have that, now can we?

[jody]

12. The Christian Coalition like AWOL and his gang take their guidance

from:
QUOTE
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
UNQUOTE

A real selective interpretation because if they had read the next passage Mat 25:31-46, they would have found out they were "goats".

[AP]

17. Regressive taxations is a massive redistribution of wealth

upwards. You make the people for whom society doesn't work so well bear all the burdens of paying for it, and you give all the benefts to those for whom society is working really well.

[Mari333]

9. Hey!! they have to pay the FINES on ROY MOORE

what is it..5000 a day if he doesnt remove the monument in the statehouse?? TOOO bad! someone has to pay the fines.......looks like its gonna be the people in Alabama..........

[jody]

11. Alabama's Tax package offers more waste

First of all, the ballot statement includes a "may be used" qualifier that lets the politicians keep doing business as usual. (see ballot statement below)

QUOTE
Shall the following Amendment be adopted to the Constitution of Alabama?
Proposed Statewide Amendment Number One (1)
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of Alabama of 1901, establishing the Alabama Excellence Initiative Fund which may be used to fund programs including, but not limited to, the furtherance of excellence in public education, college scholarships, health care benefits for senior citizens and job training programs to attract new high paying jobs and otherwise provide for distributing state tax revenues; to adjust income and property taxes; to establish the General Fund Rainy Day Account; to provide for the replenishment of the General Fund Rainy Day Account and the Education Trust Fund Rainy Day Account. (Proposed by Act No. 2003-78)
Yes
No
UNQUOTE

Second, the motivating force behind the tax increase is for education, however the only improvement proposed for the education process is to place a reading coach in each school. Alabama has 128 school systems with 1,547 schools. Placing a reading coach in every school would not cost $80 million, so what are the politicians going to do with the remaining $1.1+ billion.

Third, Alabama already has an Education Accountability Reporting System and it clearly shows that student performance is not affected by total money spent per student. For example, in Montgomery County, two schools have the same education funds per student, yet one of those schools tested 262 students on the Stanford Achievement Test and their average percentile was 90, the highest in the state. The other school tested 209 students on the same tests and their average percentile was 21, the lowest in the state. The average percentile is 55 for the state.

Fourth, Gov. Riley claims his "tax increase" will "increase employment, earnings, and the gross state product". President Bush proposes a "tax decrease" in Alabama and he claims it will "increase employment, earnings, and the gross state product". Clearly one if not both are wrong.

Fifth, Riley has an interesting set of statistics on his web page. Riley gives the results of an independent analysis performed by the Public Affairs Research Council of Alabama. The Council calculated the "Impact of Federal & State Income Tax Changes" and reported that the only Alabamians who will see a net increase in income taxes if Riley's tax plan is passed are:
· Single taxpayers, no children, gross incomes between $30,000 and $75,000,
· Single taxpayers, 1 child, gross incomes between $50,000 and $75,000,
· Married taxpayers, no children, gross income $50,000,
· Married taxpayers, 1 child, gross income $50,000.

CONCLUSION: There is so much uncertainty, misrepresentations, and outright lies by both Rep and Dem politicians, that with their track record over the past three decades, they cannot be trusted.

What to do? :shrug:

[AP]

18. It's way more important to provoke a national movement towards progressive

taxation, and it's such a huge bonus to have it tied tightly with morality, that I'd pass this tax plan and if there are any shortfalls, come up with solutions which build on the logic of this tax bill (ie, apportion burdens and benefits fairly, and progressively).

This tax bill is WWAAAYYY too important to regject on such minor points.

[jody]

20. You and I disagree on what is major and minor. The taxpayers for a

single vote have control over the purse. It is their rare chance to demand specifics and accountability before approving more of the same.

The tax bill should be defeated in its present form.

[sandnsea]

21. Because of the word 'may'?

That's how almost all laws are written. The money may be used for XYZ. Here Susie, you may use the money for treats including cookies and candy. Does that mean Susie can use the money for beer if she's a minor? No.

The bill also addresses teacher tenure which alot of people want progress on and provides a college tuition program for every Alabama student.

There seems to be an awful lot good in this bill and if you live in Alabama you may not get a chance like this again.

Certainly not enough to turn down over the word 'may'.

[jody]

24. Have you read all the changes associated with passing the amendment?

Go to the Alabama Secretary of State`s web site and study carefully, as I have, each of the bills below.

When you've done that, then feel informed enough to comment on the tax package.

Act No. 2003-78
and bills:
101 - To limit credits allowed insurance companies
102 - To clarify the definition of taxable income
103 - Relating to the Teacher Tenure Act
105 - Board of Education to create program for payments to teachers and for scholarships
106 - Relating to the Fair Dismissal Act
107 - To increase the rates of mortgage and deed recording taxes
108 - To increase rates of the utility gross receipts & utility service use taxes
109 - To increase the tax on cigarettes
110 - State to pay tuition of any qualified student for higher and postsecondary education
111 - Pertaining to Foundation Program of public schools to update funding formulas/disbursement
112 - To amend Teacher Accountability Act
113 - To prohibit public funds from being passed through from one entity to another by Legislature
114 - "School Fiscal Management and Responsibility Act"
115 - To repeal the deduction for federal income taxes
116 - Relating to individual and corporate income tax to provide funding for public education
117 - To provide for sharing the cost of health insurance premiums by state employees and retirees
118 - To eliminate the lubricating oil tax and exemption from sales and use tax
119 - To update the method of determining current use valuation of property

[sandnsea]

26. Yep

Did you think I just pulled the teacher tenure and college education information out of my ass?

This is an excellent bill. I can't understand why anybody wouldn't vote yes on it.

[jody]

27. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Your selective use of "teacher tenure and college education" ignores other aspects of the entire package.

It's a lousy bill and I can't understand why anybody wouldn't vote no on it.

[sandnsea]

28. Now I know why the south stays the south

This bill would be an amazing step forward for education in any state that doesn't already have a similar bill. I chose those two particular items because you posted that it was just another tax increase that would be wasted and not directed at education. Those aren't the only two education improvements in the bill anyway.

Vote no on it, I really don't care. Frankly I don't live in Alabama and never intend to.

[jody]

29. Thanks, you will not be missed

[Dhalgren]

30. I do live in Alabama

and I am going to vote 'yes' on this tax package. I agree with Sandandsea, this is a step in the right direction and can't be let fail. We have to get this state off of its back where the wealthy and the corparations have put it! If this package isn't 100% perfect, so be it. It is the beast we have right now. The education lottery will never pass, because the same "christianists" who oppose this tax package will oppose the lottery. Some people want this state to stay on its knees - why, I'm not sure - but we have to do something and I don't see anyone else coming up with anything better. If this tax package fails the state will finally slip down the drain where it has been heading for a hundred years. I would rather that not happen.

[jody]

31. OK, the nice thing about voting is the chance to vote your conscious.

If you've read all the bills and made your choice, go for it. If you let others persuade you with their opinions, that's also OK, but there are lots of people spreading opinions made up of part truth and part lies. That's politics in action.

Since you support the tax package, you accept Riley's analysis that shows only the following groups will have a net increase in "income taxes".
* Single taxpayers, no children, gross incomes between $30,000 and $75,000,
* Single taxpayers, 1 child, gross incomes between $50,000 and $75,000,
* Married taxpayers, no children, gross income $50,000,
* Married taxpayers, 1 child, gross income $50,000.

How did you rationalize that as your position on income taxes?

[Dhalgren]

34. Alabamians, as a group are undertaxed

and if you've lived here very long, you know that. The vast majority of households in this state earn less than $30,000 a year (this is sad, but true) - it's good that they are not negatively effected by this bill. If I have to pay higher taxes so that that the state does not completely collapse, I will. The main thing is that the property taxes are going to be increased and that the big property holders are finally going to have to pay their fair share. Is this a perfect bill? - no. Is it one we have to support if we are going to bring Alabama out of the middel ages? - yes.

[jody]

35. Looks like my NO vote will cancel your YES vote, if you vote. eom

[LizW]

22. It is important

but I wish Riley had taken a less sweeping approach and had not tried to shoot for the moon in this one amendment. It is so massive and complicated (the actual law is 1000 pages long) that the average voter can't get a handle on what he's being asked to vote for. We know he's asking us to pay more. Trouble is, we don't know how much, and we have no guarantees about what the money is going to be spent for. We are at the mercy of dozens of conflicting web sites and tv commercials by groups with agendas.

And then there's the issue of accountability and trust. The Alabama Legislature is pork paradise. When the "glitch" about school funding was discovered, the Governor's office tried to assure school superintendents that they would fix it and that they should not go to the media. They wanted to keep the mistake a secret until after the vote. That sort of behavior doesn't build trust, and with a law this massive and complicated, people have to trust those advocating it.

[jody]

25. You say "people have to trust those advocating it." Most Alabamians don't!

:shrug:

[reno1699]

33. Questions, Questions

So, are you saying that the State Government of Alabama will not use the entire 1.2 Billion where it is needed? None of this money will go to education, none to fund college scholarships, none to fund the Alabama Reading Initiative, none for prisons? If people in this state have such a distrust of their Legislature why do we continue to elect the same damn fools year after year?

Fully funding the Alabama Reading Initiative isn't an improvement of the education process? Expanding the Alabama Math and Science Iniative isn't an improvement of the education process?

Your comparing apples to oranges, Riley is talking about the state of Alabama, Bush is talking about the nation. To completely different economies.

I don't understand your last arguement. Are you saying more people will have a net increase in income taxes when considering the state increases with the federal decreases. Is there a study that shows more than that will see a net increase? If there is, I would love to see it.

[jody]

37. Read my reply more carefully, The only conclusion I made was that

there were many things unclear about the bill.

You selectively discuss a few things, while ignoring the bad parts of the bill. You might vote like that, But I don't.

I gave a link to the study about net income taxes in my reply.

[Ripley]

38. I agree with you 100% jody.

I've only lived here 8 years, but the majority of people here are tired of paying taxes and getting no progressive net results. Sales taxes are ridiculously high in parts of this state (10% on groceries in Selma???) and they have nothing to show for it.

Schools, roads, infrastructure suck and no new taxes in a "slush fund" are going to guarantee any fixes.

Plus, I hate the "As Christians we must do this." What next in their Christian agenda I ask.

[The Magistrate]

23. It Is A Shame This Fellow Is On The Other Side

His analysis of the system he administers is correct: it is immoral, and so is properly attacked as immoral. Those political figures who oppose his action label themselves irrevocably as defenders of immorality, and the merest shills of the plutocracy, to whom wealth is transfered from the poor by direct government action.

This is the proper line of attack on tax questions, both locally and nationally. The reactionary right uses the word taxes as though only Federal income taxes were meant by it, and the blurring is deliberate, because these do largely exempt the less well off and the poor. Nonetheless, when the total tax burden is taken into account, when all local and Federal taxation in all forms is totaled together, the poor and the less well off pay a far greater proportion of their income in taxes than do the well to do and the wealthy. When the taxes these pay for others are taken further into account, such as the portion of rent that goes to a landlord's property taxes, or the portion of various purchase prices that goes to pay corporate taxes on the seller, this disparity becomes even greater. Regressive tax systems are not just immoral: throughout history, they have been the leading cause of social unrest and governmental collapse.