BREAKING: Palestinians report tanks moving into Ramallah

[gp]

Reuters
Israel's Sharon Set to Strike Back for Bomb-Source
Wed August 20, 2003 01:54 PM ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon approved a series of military strikes against Palestinian militants in response to a suicide bombing that killed 18 people in Jerusalem, a senior security source said on Wednesday.

The source said the army operations, which could begin as early as Wednesday night and last several days, would go ahead regardless of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas's order for security services to arrest militants behind the bombing.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=BGQFWN04BLLNECRBAEZSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=3309993">More

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Jerusalem Post:
21:54 - Israel approves targeted military strikes, Palestinians report tanks moving into Ramallah

Link (subscription required)
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061350050839

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More from Ha'aretz newsticker:

21:46 - Palestinian witnesses: 13 IDF tanks seen lining up outside West Bank city of Ramallah (AP)

20:39 - Top security source: PM decided on series of military strikes after J`lem bomb, despite PA order for militants` arrests (Reuters)

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edit: updated links

[QuietStorm]

1. And Sharon and Mofaz

are patting each other on the back for a plan well executed and the stupidity of the main broker involved. with the UN out of the way these are the Israeli's Generals glory days a long time coming. Sickening really all is ignored but for this last bombing in Jerusalem with not even a possible reason for the bombing considered. Could it have been the new Israeli orders concerning this last leg in the fence around Jerusalem?

And that is what will go down on record in the RW history books. The Jerusalem bus bombing -- the action which once again enabled "justifable retaliation" to kick in. Man they have played it this way since the insurgence began the day after 9/11. They have been playing it this way for years. Just check the official doctrine. Israel only defends itself for the sake of "peace and security".

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Blame

Yeah, let's blame everyone except the bomber and his supporters. That works.

[starroute]

11. Why give people who don't want peace a veto over it?

If peace is really your goal, you have to design a process that will bring peace about despite anything the opponents of peace can do. If you give the opponents of peace an automatic veto, you've made it clear that you aren't committed to peace at all.

Blaming terrorists for setting off bombs is like blaming sharks for attacking swimmers. It may give you a feeling of moral superiority, but it doesn't get you anywhere. If you really want to stop shark-attacks, you have to ask the swimmers to change their behavior, because there's no use appealing to the sharks.

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. True in part

But a couple points:

* Sharks are inherently dangerous and, if they pose a threat to swimmers, I would kill them off.
* I don't ask swimmers to kill themselves rather than offend sharks.

[Resistance]

21. You also:

* Support, defend, and make excuses for Israeli terrorism.

Therefore your desire to chase after and kill off all the Palestinian "sharks" amounts to utter hypocrisy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. How dare I

Wish to bring terror bombers to justice? Shocking really.

[Resistance]

31. You miss the point (again)

If you want to bring Palestinian terrorists to justice, you should also demand justice for the victims of Israeli terrorism.

[karlschneider]

42. Sharks are far less "inherently dangerous" to humans than humans are to

sharks. I guess it kinda depends on who's in whose bailiwick and whose ass is getting bit. I think you should remove everything but "muddle" in your username.
:eyes:

Lightning is inherently dangerous...maybe you want to kill that too?
gimmeafuckingbreak

[SOS]

43. Huh?

"Sharks are inherently dangerous and, if they pose a threat to swimmers, I would kill them off."
How do you propose to do this? Kill 'em all? Good luck. Sharks have survived for 400 million years. You will not succeed in your effort to rid the world of sharks.
A much simpler solution is to leave the sharks alone in the sea and stay on land.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

44. Like white America should kill off african americans

just look at the statistics.

Actually it would be protecting blacks from ...themselves, right?

Kill em all, let god sort them out.

Did King use that one?

[NYC]

45. Sharks are not inherently dangerous.

Think about it.

You said: "* Sharks are inherently dangerous and, if they pose a threat to swimmers, I would kill them off."

We are all lucky you are not in charge of marine life.

[0007]

28. That was absolutely beautiful

A song should be written:

Brids gotta fly
fish gotta swim
man gotta kill
cuz that's they're will

Can't help loving this world

[ConservativeDemocrat]

30. Apparently unclear on the concept of "Peace"

A one-sided ceasefire is not "peace". Not doing anything to fanatics while they deliberately murder your children is not "peace". A "process" that does not - one way or another - dissuade opponents of peace from committing acts of war is not a "peace process".

Clear enough?

The truth is that the Palestinians DO have the ability to stop the terrorist attacks - they just don't want to. They find it highly convenient to take advantage of Israel's reluctance to use time tested means of stopping partisan attacks - e.g. match atrocity for atrocity.

If Israel acted like any other middle eastern state, there would be no Palestinian terrorists. Every time a terrorist attacked out of an area obviously sympathetic to their cause, the security forces would go in and commit a couple of thousand extra-judicial executions of more or less likely suspects. This is brutal, evil, and highly effective. Despite all the rhetoric of 'just creating more terrorists', the truth is that people have a strong sense of self-preservation. Once it becomes clear that sympathizers are not safe from the consequenses of the actions of the terrorists they aid, they will quickly stop aiding them.

Terrorism is a form of war which takes advantage of western morality.

This isn't cynicism. It's reality.


- C.D.

[Resistance]

36. Seems you missed this post from another thread

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1840.shtml

Since the commencement of the ceasefire (which applies only to Palestinians) on June 29, Israeli soldiers and settlers have killed 17 people (including 7 children), wounded 437 (including 88 children), arrested 593 people, confiscated 4,457 acres of land for Jewish settlements, bulldozed 987 acres of farmland, destroyed 12,462 trees and destroyed or damaged 253 houses.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

41. Israel isn't as innocent as this...

hilarously over the top propaganda makes them out to be. (The killing of "children" the Electronic Intifada talks about are nearly all teenagers caught in the act of attempting some terrorist act; a handful are bystanders next to some thug the IDF is attacking.) However, while E.I. is hardly unbiased, it pretty much is clear that Israelis really are greedy for land, and many settlers are little more than religious thugs.

Still, that does it make Israel the equivalent to their Arab neighbors. Nor is it the excuse for deliberately targeting innocent children.

Here's a concept. Let the P.A. propose their own settlement that: 1] Maintain's Israel's necessary military advantage, 2] Preserves the Jewish character of the Israeli state, and 3] Has some automatic enforcement mechanism so that if the Palestinians can't deliver Peace they loose their bargained Land (as a means of preventing negotiating in bad faith), and 4] That all major Palestinian political groups including Hamas agree to. If they deliver that, they can make any other demands they want.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they'd never be able to do it. The Arabs are split into two camps: those who want an honorable peace with Israel, and those who will use any means to get advantage so that they can destroy it. They paper over their differences by making limited demands - "A temporary cease fire if you release all our (terrorist) prisoners". A final offer that did not posit the destruction of Israel would be unacceptable to most.

- C.D.

[JNelson6563]

16. It reminds me of America actually.....

we screw up in foreign policy all the time and suffer terrorist attacks in return. Seems to me the premise is the same......

How do you feel about the terrorists who are against us? Do you feel we shoulder any blame for the way things are now because of our foreign policy mistakes?

Julie

[arcane1]

2. and how much airplay in the US will these strikes get?

*sound of crickets*

[QuietStorm]

3. and how many pictures

of maimed and bleeding and dead innocent palestinians (many children) will end up on the front page of our leading mainstream journals?

*sound of crickets*

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. why anyone would want to live over there

is beyond me. Any american jew who packs up his family and moves into a war zone should be conviced of child abuse and endangerment.

What a crazy part of the world that is.

Tis a such a shame.

[Resistance]

8. they think God is telling them to go there

[Zhade]

19. Nice!

"Any american jew who packs up his family and moves into a war zone should be convicted of child abuse and endangerment."

Excellent point. I agree.

(Btw, that's a bad-ass drawing.)

[legin]

6. shit

it looked like to me that maybe israel might do the sensible thing and hold back from this step for the sake of the roadmap. But obviously it is just 'business as normal'.

[QuietStorm]

7. that wouldn't be in line with Mofaz' plan.

all very methodical really.

[wtmusic]

9. shit here we go again n/t

[Cush]

10. CNN showing footage

6 or 7 tanks

[Yentatelaventa]

12. If the PA won't clean out the trash then somebody must do it.

Allowing the murderous terror bombers to run free has not solved any problems. It's time to round up the terrorists and start anew.

[bpilgrim]

14. ah, the IDF is in control of the security there, guess they suck as bad as

the palestinian security forces even with all their weapons and troops.

or do you suppose the terrorist have infiltrated the IDF :shrug:

kill'em all and let GOD sort'em out, eh?

peace

[Resistance]

22. Rini, of course will never complain

about Israeli terrorist murderers running free - only Palestinian ones.

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. Transferring the entire Likud party back to Russia would be a good start

Oh but wait, that might actually benefit ordinary Israelis and give Israel a chance to be a country instead of a leprous pariah.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. It's OK to talk about transfering Jews now?

That's new.

[DoYouEverWonder]

37. Just the criminals

Every ethnic group has a few of their own. The Likud and Mossad are dangerous political entities. Bad people are bad people. Some of them happen to be Jewish.

In regards to the Palestinians, I will never understand why pro-Israel folks, don't see anything wrong with treating the Palestinians as bad as Hitler treated them and then they get all po'd when a Palestinian dares to fight back?

[Yentatelaventa]

39. Killing women and children on busses isn't "fighting back"

It's terrorism period.

[DuctapeFatwa]

46. Should they just fire tanks onto residential streets instead?

Or maybe they could hunt down IDF soldiers that they suspect may be planning to torture Palestinian children and take them off to "detention camps," or just shoot them and then bulldoze their family homes.

[Zhade]

18. Flawed logic, but I understand where you're coming from.

To paraphrase Ted Rall (damn good journalist, imho), rounding up all the terrorists won't do a lick of good. That's why the "war on terrorism" will never end - just as the cabal wishes.

Suppose all the terrorists in the Middle East are killed. Well, there are more all over the world. Now suppose we kill all of them. Ooops, wait, they have family and friends, at least some of whom, by human nature, will pick up a Kalishnakov and go hunt some civilian targets. And on, and on, and on, and on.

Now, I completely agree with the argument that suicide-bombing innocent Israelis is a very bad thing. It will never help the Palestinian people. It's hypocritical to decry the IDF killing innocent Palestinians while targeting Israeli civilians. Very hard for anyone to sympathize with that (and most pro-peace activists in that issue condemn the violence, period).

Not that I am advocating this, but it would do their cause a lot more good to target the IDF and not the everyday Israeli populace. Actions against the IDF would be justified. Again, I am not advocating violence. Just making a point.

In the end, I just wish they'd all stop killing each other. But that won't happen with the mindset of those in power there. And that's a true loss for both sides.

[newyorican]

24. The bomber is from Hebron

Hebron is controlled completely by the IDF. So the IDF *fails* at preventing the attack that came from Hebron, and they attack elsewhere? Blood-thirty revenge. Time to divest.

[QuietStorm]

25. ah yes like the IDF has made great headway

in ALL THESE YEARS at effecting the resistance and their terror tactics. Notice how after 3 years of collective punishment, human rights violations, ethnic cleansing, the IDF DID manage to initiate another Palestinian Exodus, but NOT stop the resistance and their terror tactics. Gee I wonder what new fangled weapons or strategies they have set in place this time. You suppose the IDF will FINALLY route it out entirely.

[bpilgrim]

13. so much for letting the new 'leader' crack down on the extremist...

i guess they were just kidding, eh?

peace

[0007]

20. Here we go again!

.....around and around and around we go where it will stop no one knows.

It's over my head!

[Resistance]

23. Problem is,

the ones with any real power to make a change (The US and Israel) are the ones who are most aggressively engaged in terror, aggression, and ethnic cleansing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. LOL

And the Palestinians are just tossed on the sea of conflict and make no choices themselves. You act like they are little children and have no responsibility for their actions.

BOTH sides have made this mess. BOTH need to clean it up. (Actually, all sides, because this is a complex question, but that was shorthand.)

[tom_paine]

34. Thank you, muddleoftheroad!

We moderates need to stick together.

There is PLENTY of wrong on BOTH SIDES to go around.

[Resistance]

35. You missed the point

The point is that it's the US and Israel with any real power to make changes for peace. Instead, they choose to manipulate that power to their advantage, which is helping Israel's aggression expansionism. This, of course, is a losing scenario for ALL the people involved (Palestinians living in refugee camps with no state of their own, and Israelis living in fear of suicide attacks every day). But hey, as long as Israel gets to steal all that holy land, it makes everything alright, according to the right-wing Zionist thugs running the show.

You'll get it one day, muddle. Keep at it bud.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

33. Aren't you like

that Jew living in Palestine? lol.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

32. Good

I hope they target all of the militants with an extreme amount of force. I feel better now.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Moving things forward

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=205669

[StandWatie]

40. uh-oh...

Maybe they are going to go in an paint the one remaining wall in Arafat's compound a really nasty shade of green :eyes:

[legin]

47. Update

Palestinian witnesses: IDF tanks raid West Bank city of Nablus

Palestinian witnesses said that Israeli army tanks and armored vehicles raided the West Bank town of Nablus amid intensive shooting. No injuries were reported.

At least 10 Israeli Army tanks and armored vehicles were reported to be clustering Wednesday night on the outskirts of the Palestinian city of Ramallah on the West Bank, according to Palestinians at the scene. It was not known if the forces were being positioned for military action in response to the bus bombing.

One Palestinian was killed and four others were injured by Israeli troops at around midnight in the West Bank town of Tulkarem when an Israeli army force raided the town, Palestinian witnesses and medical sources reported.

(more...)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/330710.html

A 'Green Light' from bush* snip from above article:

The White House demanded Wednesday that the PA
crack down on militant groups and said Israel
had the right to defend itself following the
"vicious" bombing.

U.S. President George W. Bush conveyed that
message directly to Sharon in a phone call from
his Crawford, Texas ranch, White House
spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters.