Christian Churches Should Stop Using the Cross, Group Says

[kskiska]

Will we see a boycott of the Washington Times?

Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - An interfaith group founded by Unification Church leader Sun Myung Moon is spearheading an effort to have Christian ministers remove crosses from their churches, calling them a symbol of oppression and perceived superiority. Mainstream Christian leaders call the request "outrageously bigoted."

The American Clergy Leadership Conference (ACLC), an organization that began as a project of Moon's Family Federation for World Peace and Unification (FFWPU), believes the key to "true and lasting peace in the Middle East" is reconciliation between members of the world's three largest religions.

"Jews, Christians and Muslims must come together to heal divisions of the past, to stand together in a moment of repentance and reconciliation, and thus, tear down the walls that separate us as people of faith," said Archbishop George Augustus Stallings, Jr., of the independent Imani Temple African American Catholic congregation in Washington, D.C.

(snip)

"We have realized that, as expressions of faith, there are certain symbols that have stood in the way," Stallings said. "The cross has served as a barrier in bringing about a true spirit of reconciliation between Jews and also between Muslims and Christians, and thus, we have sought to remove the cross from our Christian churches across America as a sign of our willingness to remove any barrier that stands in the way of us coming together as people of faith."

more…
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200308\CUL20030822a.html

[grytpype]

1. "Sounds reasonable to me."

[shockandawed]

2. A funny thought...Do you think if Jesus came back...

...he would ever want to see another fucking cross. Kind of like wearing a rifle pendant and walking up to Jackie O tapping it saying "just thinkin of John, Jackie...Just thinking of John'

-Bill Hicks



The most wonderful comedian in recent memory. True social satarist. Was so on point. His stuff on the first gulf war and the war on drugs is the best I have ever heard.

Miss you Bill

[Merlin]

25. Thanks very much, shockandawed. Bill Hicks ruled!

I had never heard of him until your post. Satirists are a special interest of mine. I looked this guy up and, your right, he was terrific.

How did he die? Isn't it odd? Bruce, Kinison, Hicks, all biting social critics, all gone way too early. (But before one becomes too suspicious, we also lost Belushi, Candy and the other SNL large guy.) Is it something about cutting against the grain? Is it a compulsive, endless, never-satisfiable search for the next cutting edge bit? What drives these guys over the edge?

[NashVegas]

29. Pancreatic Cancer

Trio TV recently ran a special, "Outlaw Comic." Maybe we get lucky and it comes to DVD soon.


Back to the main subject:

the cross as a spiritual symbol predates Christianity by eons.

[Selwynn]

3. He is one of the good guys

Not all men and women of strong spiritual faith are meanspirited closed minded morons...

It's just that the meanspirited closed minded morons are so LOUD.

Sprititual faith, I believe, can be the most beautiful thing in a person's life. But misused and abused, it can be the most devastating things in a person's life and to those around him.

My compliments to people such as these here, more concerned about fellowship and unity in a spirit of peace than in an obsession with symbolism.

[Rose Siding]

6. MOON is one of the good guys???

Are you kidding? He's a Bush 41 paymaster and owner of the govt mouthpiece, the WA Times.

[The Zanti Regent]

7. Moon is one of the Good Guys? ROTFLMAO!

Moon is a CROOK!

If anyone is stupid enough to believe that Moon is a Good Guy, well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell to you!

[Selwynn]

11. Well, its nice to see that the Religious Right isn't the only group...

Able to act like closed minded asses.

[UpInArms]

31. close minded???

you just do not understand exactly who and what Moon is - here in his own words:

http://www.unification.net/1992/921206.html

The first Israel, second Israel and third Israel-these concepts are already clear to you. Of course, everybody understands the first Israel. The second Israel is Christianity, represented by the American nation. The third Israel is Korea. America has occupied a very important position in history. When America takes the objective, minus position then peace can be achieved. Why must it be in the minus position? Christian countries are in the position of bride countries. Therefore, America is in the position of bride to the groom. The bride exists for the groom.

Alpha is Israel, Omega is in Korea. Jesus and Israel needed a bride and because there was no bride available, they really suffered. So the central problems of the world today are Israel and Korea. Now Korea is in a great political turmoil and America is religiously in the same situation. It is like mind and body, not fulfilling what they should be doing. They have the same destiny. Father told the Bush administration exactly that. It is very simple. I suggested this during the Conference on World Peace. I said to Mr. Bush, "All you have to do is just acknowledge this by signing it. I will gather together all 160 nations and let you be the leader of these countries. Then you will be able to accomplish perfect peace among all the nations." I said that to Mr. Bush. "You don't have to do anything. I will provide all the plans and I will even do that for you." Furthermore, I suggested that he choose Korea as the "Eternal Country of Peace." After that, all America would have to do would be to support Korea in a small way economically, in order that they could continue to prosper. That is a very small part of the overall job. Then Israel would follow in America's footsteps, and when that happens, Israel would not have any more problems with war.

I said this to Bush and I told him that he would become a historic figure. He would have a role in history which no one would ever be able to deny. But Bush didn't listen and he rejected my idea, which was God's will. Where is he now? He is out of office. After I met with Kim Il Sung, I sent to him a carefully thought out plan. Even to this day, I have received no answer from him. That means he is thinking, "What is Reverend Moon's idea?" Through The Washington Times and the other media which we have at our disposal, I introduced this whole concept, even bringing to America an interview with Kim Il Sung, who is the most remote national leader in the world. It was Father himself who softened Kim's attitude toward America, the very Kim Il Sung who has been going against America. It didn't really take so much money to make such a thing happen. The world knows by now that even though Reverend Moon may have money, he does not use it for himself. American truly needed help, and Father had all the help they needed. I offered it to them, spending my own effort and money to help them. Still this country doesn't come along. Even God feels there is nothing more he can do in this country.

[AntiCoup2K4]

10. Uh, please tell me I'm mistaken, but....

...did you just refer to Moon as "One of the good guys"??

And if so, maybe you weren't aware that he owns the Washington Times and is one of the biggest cash cows of the Religious Reich.

[Lars39]

12. You need to read this:

http://www.rense.com/general20/unholy.htm

[shockandawed]

21. I hear what you are saying

But I think that spirituality and religion have never been further apart than they are today. The decadence of the lives of church leaders, their political intereference, child molestation and denials (catholics only here), and building huge gaudy churches that dot the American landscape while 1 in 6 children is in poverty.

What happened to washing the feet of the poor? Imagine if every church in America was instead a youth facility, library, community health clinic, or shelter, and people prayed in their homes, in groups, in public, in nature. Would we not be closer to God?

Bless you for your spirituality, and may you not be manipulated by the leaders of your faith.

[UpInArms]

30. please go and read

about one-quarter of the page down -

http://www.letstalksense.com/comments1-2_02.htm

for the entire "Look Who's Talking" article -

here's a portion of it:

If you are not familiar with Reverend Moon, allow me to show you a few of the more obvious problems with his religious beliefs. Note: When Sun Myung Moon speaks, he refers to himself in an extremely strange way. He does not say "I", he says "Father". I can only suppose that he wishes to make his speeches sound as though they have been delivered by someone else, because no one would give the credence and weight to these words if spoken in the first person. His megalomania would be exposed as the shameful garbage it actually is.

Sun Myung Moon claims to be free of sin. He claims to have more wisdom than Jesus, and he has often said that he is greater than Jesus. Sun Myung Moon teaches that:

"Abraham was the father of faith, Moses was a man of faith, Jesus was the son of man, trying to carry out his mission at the cost of his life. But they are, in a way, failures." (Sun Myung Moon, "Victory or Defeat," from Master Speaks, March 31, 1973, p.1.) He also teaches: "This means that the failures of Adam and of Jesus Christ have been restored by the appearance of True Parents." (Rev. Moon, Today's World, January, 1995, p.8)

I don't know about you, but I was never taught that Jesus was a failure and that there would be a better version, not the return of the messiah, but the replacement of him. Sun Myung Moon believes that he is better than Jesus and he has come to unite the world with the Unification Church and his teachings. The following quote comes from the Unification Church book, and is purportedly a message from Jesus. (pp 61-66) If Moon is to be believed, we need to rewrite the Bible to suit his purpose. I don't think I'm quite ready to do that, are you?

...more...

[yella_dawg]

4. It's pretty sad

when the most outrageous wack-jobs are the ones making the most sense.

[Selwynn]

14. That's what I was trying to say...

Somehow that got lost in some ridiculous jump-down-the throat ranting.

You know, the only thing that keeps us more sophisticated than the "right wing" of politics and religion that we believe is hurting the country... is when we don't stoop to ACTING EXACTLY LIKE THEM. And they way we don't stoop to that is by being open to different points of view, thoughtful and demonstract a capacity for thought and discourse that is free and open.

I said he was a good man based SOLELY on the article link. I meant that I thought it was good of someone to care more about unity than symbolism. I don't know anything else about the man and I dont care. But thanks for jumping down my throat and proving that I guess we're really not much better than the people we rail against.

[salin]

17. The problem

is that in his history, the Rev. Moon has a terrible reputation for oppressing others, for trying to extort resources out of countries, for fostering a cult-like institution, and - from the mid 1980s on - fostering rightwing media.

The reason Moon wants to get rid of the cross - has NOTHING to do with fighting off the religious right (to which he is closely aligned he has bailed out Falwell, and has had, I believe, some financial dealings with Robertson). Much more likely it has to do with his theology.

He believes that Christ was not the Martyr. That Christ failed because he did not procreate. He believes that HE, MOON himself, is the messiah, and that because he has had children that HE is the successful one. Thus images that worship Christ, who he does not recognize as the 'savior' (since he sees himself as the savior) are unwelcomed by him. Cuts into his ability to recruit even more people to his religion.

The response you are getting - is more likely tied to knowledge of the insidious nature of Moon - than just a knee-jerk reaction.

Moon is not our friend.

Doesn't mean we can't like what he says once in awhile. But to attribute to him noble reasons for why he says things - in absense of understanding his long standing teachings/practices/activities - is a mistake. Everything has context. Including the motivations behind Moon's statement. And including the reaction of some DUers. Specifying this does not make "us as bad as the enemy".

[Lars39]

5. There are many *warehouse churches*

that are southern baptist that do not have crosses on them, nor can you tell what denomination they are from their websites.

[The Zanti Regent]

9. Gee, what denomination???

10?

20?

50?

100?

Folks who believe in the Invisible Cloud Being should stick with the 2!

[barbaraann]

8. I will never forget what Mary Daly said about the cross.

I heard her speak in the seventies; she talked about how when religion became patriarchal instead of matriarchal the "tree of life" was replaced by "two dead sticks with a corpse on it."

[Karenina]

32. BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

And the poor tree was so ashamed it grew short and gnarly, producing blossoms with four petals...

[kskiska]

13. Strange, but in the Freeper posting of this story

not one person made the connection between Rev. Moon and their beloved Washington Times.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/968497/posts

[barbaraann]

15. Gosh, Freepers ignorant but thinking they are informed??!!

Who would have thunk? :evilgrin:

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Do they know that Moon sponsored a prayer breakfast in connection

with their boy Dubya's inauguration? A lot of clergy who attended were a little upset to find that creeps's name on their programs! (I mean that creep Moon, of course. They knew Dubya's name would be there.)

And of course Moon wants to do away with the cross as a symbol -- the better to advance his Unification Church, which isn't about the message of Jesus but about one-church "religion" to go along with one-nation political rule. Global hegemony, aka "We will dominate the world" thinking a la Saturday morning cartoons.

[Lars39]

28. Links to what everyone should know about Sun Myung Moon:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=219511

[alcuno]

16. Remove the cross? Never.

It is an incredible symbol of love.

[shockandawed]

22. dont you mean a symbol of war, persecution, crusdades and hate?

Just checking

[alcuno]

24. No, it would be difficult to get those mixed up.

The cross is an incredible symbol of Jesus' love for all of us, whether we want it or not.

As for man, he frequently uses religion and religious symbols to perpetrate evil upon the world. God has a special place picked out for those who distort his message and use it to seek political gain.

[nemo137]

33. i've always thought that an empty tomb would be a better symbol

but it's so had to draw, you know?

[salin]

18. Is it just me... or does anyone else see this as the newest

push for his own power? If Moon rids the symbols and identities of the major religion - he clears the way for more mass converts.

His long history makes me exceptionally wary of his motivations.

[alaine]

19. Oddly enough, he's hitting on an undercurrent, as both

pagan and heathen mean essentially the same thing, country dweller, and now describe people who do not adhere to Christianity, Islam or Judaism. Interestingly, according to my dictionary, both used to mean simply non-christian, but have expanded to include the other two as well.

I personally would rather they stay separate traditions while simultaneously managing to stop all the bloodshed.
God help us pagans if the three get together. Power corrupts.

As for Moon, he's like bell-bottoms, a tacky out-dated nightmare that just won't go away.

[haele]

20. I think another reason is that it's a subtle "break" for developers.

With the growing popularity of strip mall churches that use low-key signage at the church storefront instead of being at a seperate, distinctive building.

There's a subliminal consumerism these churches tend to promote by the placement within strip malls which creates an increase in "captive shoppers" that are already at the shopping location without scaring off potential non-religious or un-affiliated shopers ("Hey honey, let's check the sales at Radio Shack and that kid's resale shop a few doors down - and maybe stop off at that Walmart over there before we go home" or "Mo-o-o-m - Jimmy and his family are stopping off at the Subway at the end of the stores, can we have lunch there instead of going home for lunch after church?").

A shopowner I know who deals in estate jewelry consignment started opening her store on Sundays, taking Monday and Tuesday off instead of Sunday and Monday, as soon a "mall church" opened up in her complex - she said she saw a 5% jump in customers when she changed to that schedule. A mall church was an economic windfall for her and some of the other small shopowners and the mall owner, who got the tax break for having a recognized church on his property in locations where he had problems with small shops able to remain in this time of economic downturn.

A developer or property owner can expect all sorts of tax exemptions and - depending on the community, construction fee and zoning exemptions by having a church facility added into a discreet end of his or her mall area.

The other part of this is that Moonies and their cohorts have always flown "under the radar" as it is; they specialize in subliminal psychology - especially attraction and capture; one of their hooks is that they push the idea that they and those who follow them are a special, glorious group of believers, one that the sinful general Society will persecute should they reveil the "glory that is theirs".

I wouldn't put it past this organization to use this as a media ploy to legitimize it in the minds of those who might not be aware of it's agenda and activities.
I can also see where the Unification Church would push for the abandonment of the symbol of the cross, which is an universal solar symbol, reflecting of the cycle of life - as well as the Christian sacrifice of a god force for the "salvation" of mankind.

The Unification Church and it's satellite organizations are not Christian, even though they assumes the mantle of a Christian sect. Unless, of course, you are willing to believe that (sic) "Reverand" Moon is the messiah, the last incarnation of the Christ architype that will lead end of the world ala the "Book of Revelations".

Haele

[qanda]

23. Just try getting the cross off my necklace...

To me it is a reminder of the sacrifice that Jesus made for me. I don't run around telling people what symbols are or are not appropriate for their beliefs and I don't expect anyone telling me what symbols are or are not appropriate for mine.

[Merlin]

27. The cross is indeed a symbol of oppression.

Think about it. Why? Why use the symbol of death to represent a religion? I'll tell you why. Because it was and still is used to represent a threat to those who do not comply with the Church's notion of right and wrong. It is a symbol of the attempt by the prelates of Christianity to dominate the thoughts and deeds of the "faithful." It is a reinforcement of the absurd postulation that all humans are born with "original sin on their souls." So we are all meant to feel dirty, unworthy, sinful, incapable of being whole without the guidance of those self-anointed "successors of Christ," the well-indoctrinated clergy.

It is preposterous to think that Jesus would have wanted the symbol of what he stood for to be the piece of wood on which he was killed. Shall we use a theater seat to represent Abe Lincoln? A Lincoln Town Car to represent JFK?

Jesus stood for life, not death. He stood for freedom, not oppression. He stood for charity not the accumulation of largesse by religious enterprises. He stood for those things that we liberals believe in. Yet he has been coopted by the right wing.

The notion that somehow Jesus"redeemed" humanity by dying was never one taught by Christians of the time. It was an idea concocted by "Saint" Paul, who never met Jesus, more than 50 years later. Paul--who was bitterly opposed by St. Thomas--THE Thomas--the one who Jesus chose as his "Rock"--enlarged the story of Jesus, and turned him into a "Christ", a savior of mankind, something never intended in Jesus teachings.

[opihimoimoi]

34. Jesus was gibbetted as was the custom of the times.

a bad way to die for sure. There was no cross.