Dalai Lama welcome, but...

[dArKeR]

The Dalai Lama may return to Tibet but only as a Chinese citizen and he must renounce all notions of Tibetan independence so that negotiations with Beijing can progress, Tibet's new governor said on Monday.

In his first remarks to foreign journalists since taking office in April, Jampa Phuntsok's tone seemed mild compared with some previously hardline statements by Beijing's representatives.

Nonetheless, he reiterated China's bottom line: the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism must accept that Tibet is a part of China.

"The sovereignty issue brooks no discussion. It is also inappropriate for the Dalai Lama to discuss human rights," Jampa Phuntsok said. "We can only discuss the Dalai Lama's future."

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1406698,00.html

Mainland Chinese pig government. Surely murdered 1,000,000% more than Saddam ever did. Taiwan Democratic Progressive Party is the only Democracy in Asia! Abian is our leader!

The RKF of Asia, President Chen Shui Bian (Abian)
http://www.president.gov.tw/
http://www.president.gov.tw/1_president/e_subject-05a9.html
http://www.scanews.com/collester/article3/article3.html



Liu Yan Chun grew up in Taiwan firmly believing that her family would someday go back to mainland China. It took most of her life to realize that there would be no triumphant return, as envisioned by the Nationalists when they retreated (Edit: this word should be INVADED Formosa which they renamed to Taiwan.) to Taiwan after defeat by the Chinese Communists in 1949. It took her longer still to realize that she had no desire to return.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/315530.asp



First lady's European tour seen as diplomatic success
http://www.etaiwannews.com/Taiwan/2003/07/24/1059010376.htm


Assassination Attempt
Chen's wife, you know, was at a time an even more strident crusader than he was for the rights of the Taiwanese and the DPP. In 1985 she was rammed over three times by a truck and was crippled, and the driver was never found despite the fact that there were witnesses. Most Taiwanese believe _ that it was a botched KMT assassination attempt. And Chen has to go home every night and see her sitting in a wheelchair because of it. It's not an easy thing to shake.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/marketqa/2000/03/20/



Accident or assassination attempt?

One account claims the driver, described in press reports at the time as a "simple peasant with a steady job and a fixed residence, Chang Jung-tsai" was driving an "illegally assembled truck" down the narrow street where Mrs. Chen was standing.

Witnesses said Chang purposefully hit Mrs. Chen. They insisted that the driver reportedly exclaimed "Oh, she's not dead yet" before backing up and running over her again to ensure maximum injury if not death.
http://www.chinaonline.com/refer/biographies/secure/chenshuibian.asp



From poverty to power: Chen Shui-bian's rise to the presidency
http://www.chinaonline.com/refer/biographies/secure/chenshuibian.asp


(Ex President) Lee says pro-unification forces to blame for SARS outbreak
http://www.etaiwannews.com/Taiwan/2003/05/19/1053309473.htm


DPP decries Soong's proposal
(Soong and Lien are mainland pigs.)
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/06/15/2003055308


KMT (Pig) rebel blasts party's voting order
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/06/02/2003053622


Recent poll shows satisfication with government, Chen
http://www.etaiwannews.com/Taiwan/2003/05/17/1053136494.htm



Former hospital chief under fire (SARS spreader)
Wu was the superintendent of Taipei Municipal Jen Ai when President Chen Shui-bian was Taipei mayor, but he was fired over allegations of corruption in an equipment purchase scandal.

When Ma Ying-jeou (KMT Pig) was elected mayor, he invited Wu back and made him the superintendent of Hoping.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/05/13/205762



The ‘New Taiwan Person’
Centuries ago, the island had an aboriginal culture of Malay and Polynesian descent. In the 17th century, the Dutch and Portuguese had colonies here, and the imported Chinese laborers — all men — intermarried with locals, forming the basis of the majority of today’s population. According this version of history, it was only in 1887 that China declared Taiwan a part of its territory in an effort to stem Japanese expansionism, say independence activists. But when that failed, China ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity.
The Japanese held Taiwan for 50 years, until their defeat in World War II. In the years immediately after, Allied Forces backed Chiang Kai-shek’s temporary occupation of Taiwan. But according to pro-independence legal experts, the Nationalists never had a legal basis to stay.
“In 1949, Taiwan did not “split off from China”, but was occupied by the losing side in the Chinese Civil War,” according to a 1999 white paper endorsed by 18 overseas Taiwanese associations.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/316717.asp?cp1=1


Premier's performance satisfies public, poll says
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/08/01/2003061799

http://darker0darker.tripod.com/

[Caution]

1. Welcome my ass!

That's not a welcome, that's an invitation to come back and be used by the Chinese government to quell an unhappy populace in an illegally occupied land. "If you come back and surrender your nation's sovereignty, we'll use you as a symbol that says 'see, even your spiritual leader has accepted Chinese control'"

[phgnome]

5. For a fair argument

Can you list the side of argument that would favor Taiwan not being a sovereign nation?

I can.

Do you know what Taiwan is doing in terms of labor? I read an article about a year ago about Taiwan doing some really shitty things.

The conflict between Taiwan and mainland China is a very valid argument and it does have to do with freedom. Taiwan hasn't been playing very nicely with its fellow Asian countries. You see, this whole independence of Taiwan argument is about slave labor.

What does Taiwan's "independence" mean?
Many businesses in Taiwan that conduct businesses with American corporations hire illegal labor from the Philippines, Thailand, and the other poorer countries. They set up "employment agents" in the poorer countries whose sole purpose is to recruit illegal labor and bring them into Taiwan (to produce cheap parts for your computer). These agents charge the illegal workers a finder's fee, transportation fee. When the worker gets to Taiwan, they are charged (exorbitantly) for room + board by their employers. These people work 18 hours a day for below minimum wage, are not allowed to travel to where they want, and it takes them forever to earn just their room and board. At the end of the day, the worker has no money to return home, is unable to save enough money to get out. They've just gotten the whole slave labor package while their employer lives an extravagant lifestyle.

China is going through many social and political reforms. One of the reforms is to eliminate the unemployment problem on mainland China by stopping illegal labor and ensuring that all employers abide by a certain labor code. Taiwan's independence means that Taiwanese businesses would not have to abide by labor codes and stop these slave shops. The Taiwanese businesses don't want to do this because it would hurt their bottom line. American corporations don't want the Taiwanese to stop doing this because it would hurt their bottom line. So, what does western media, who is funded by American corporate advertisers do? Promote the slave shops and attach Taiwanese "independence" to it. By supporting Taiwan's "independence" at this time, you are saying that it is ok for Taiwan to have these slave shops, and exploit the poorer Asian countries. Furthermore, it gives economic incentive to perpetuate poverty in the poorer Asian countries.

About a year and a half ago, the ambassador for Taiwan went to Canada and asked for audience with the Canadian government. The Canadian government refused him audience and sent him on his way because they know what he supports.

China's motivation for putting the screws on Taiwan is to ensure that everyone observes the human rights codes (due to the political reforms that are happening on mainland China) so they can repair some of the bad PR they got from their more hardline communist days.

I suggest that you follow current developments in PRC's political and social reforms before you comment on this topic. The literacy rate on mainland China right now is at about 71% and rising (it was about half that 2-3 decades ago) -- there is currently a propaganda campaign to teach every man, woman, and child to speak English in preparation for the 2008 summer games in Beijing and 2010 Expo in Shanghai. I suspect that they are moving towards a democratic model and by supporting Taiwan's "independence" at this time, we are hindering their move towards democracy and an egalitarian society governed by legitimate labor laws that uphold basic human rights.

Just because some country's movement has "independence" in its name (i.e. the Taiwan independence movement) has no guarantees that the movement is upholding human rights.

I commend the government of China for actively making reforms to its government and society. It's a huge job, and I don't think we should be downplaying the reforms in the media and upholding their previous media image as a totalitarian government. It's not fair to the government that's making an effort and it will discourage other governments from making civil reforms.

[northzax]

43. er, allow me to remove myself from the floor

after falling out of my chair laughing. you ARE joking, right? your only arguement for a reunification of the PRC and ROC is unfair labour practices in ROC compared to PRC? no really, this is your arguement? that labour conditions are actually better in the PRC than ROC? and this is based on an article your read about the importation of filipino labour?

Let's run some numbers shall we?

PRC ROC

Sufferage Universal Universal
Political Parties One 15
in government
Literacy 86% (CIA number) 95%
governing parties, One Two
since 1950
infant mortality rate 25.5/1000 6.5/1000
state religion aetheism none
punishment for following imprisonment/death none
other religion


want more data? yes, the PRC is infinitly improved from 30 years ago, more improved than ROC politically (although the ROC has undergone a party leadership change without a revolution, something I'm still waiting on the PRC for) but when you start from the Great Leap Forward, it doesn't take much progress to be much better off, does it? obviously, ROC is not perfect, no state it, and the US shoudl certainly not use these conflicts as a stalking horse to contain the PRC, but to say that workers are better off in the PRC than the ROC is simply absurd and ignorant. it ain't the case, fool. it just ain't.

you know, Napoleon once said "When China wakes it will shake the world." that was 1816. WE're still waiting for China, at least mainland China, to join the world community and start playing by the same rules as 'cvilised' nations on a regular basis. (and yes, the US is dropping in these rankings, but I consider this an aberration.)

[TahitiNut]

2. "Abandon hope all ye who enter here!"

One must wonder whether the source of this "policy" is a Dante fan.

[Flubadubya]

3. The last time he got an invitation like that from China...

I believe they were plotting his demise. This has got to be the cosmic understatement of all eternity, but... the Dalai Lama is nobody's fool!

[mumon]

4. Allow me to make a bit of a reply...

The Dalai Lama and Taiwan are China's hot buttons for a reason, and they would be, even if their government was pure as the driven snow.


Tibet and Taiwan have been used for decades by the U.S. to try to relegate China to a marginalized status. Everybody, I mean everybody, in the PRC knows about the CIA playing footsie with the Dalai Lama and Taiwan.

And don't kid yourself about religious freedom: the Dalai Lama has a bit of 'splainin' to do on that issue. (See http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1997/8/22_3.html )

Take the case of Tibet: if anybody's going to advocate for Tibetan independence, I ask them: do they advocate Hawaiian independence?

What about independence for the Sioux? They probably have much,much more of a claim to independent statehood than the Tibetans.

Now if you're going to apply the same standard, you've got to conclude that the United States should be broken up, too.

(Something like 1/2 of all Mexicans believe that the part of the US lost in the war with Mexico belongs to them.)

Taiwan poses similar problems: it's kinda disingenous to say that a nation that formally bills itself as the "Republic of China" isn't really a part of China.

It's also a tempest in a tea-pot: Taiwanese have invested so much in the PRC they're pretty much joined at the hip anyway, and nobody- either the PRC or Taiwan- wants to upset the apple-cart.

The US shouldn't support sweatshops or slave labor in China (or anywhere else), but otherwise, we shouldn't really get involved in this stuff. NOBODY's pure as the driven snow here.

[phgnome]

6. ..

sorry, I must've been posting while you were posting.

[On the Road]

7. I Agree, Kanzeon

From a Chinese site:

In the middle of the thirteenth century,Tibet was formally incorporated into the Chinese territory of the Yuan Dynasty...

In the later period of the fourteenth century, the central government of the Ming Dynasty inherited and followed the systems of adminstering Tibet by the Yuan Dynasty.

China has infinitely more of a claim to Tibet than our own government has to most US territory. China's human rights abuses should be pursued as human rights issues, not as a means of dismembering the country.

[Squeech]

10. If China thinks this validates their claim to Tibet

then let them revert to the 13th century Confucian governmental system. Should be a hoot!

By the same logic, let's let Madrid decide the Texas redistricting issue.

At various points in history, China has been militarily strong enough to exercise dominion over Vietnam. China doesn't talk about it too much (being preoccupied now with Taiwan), but they believe they're entitled to Vietnam too. And when Saigon fell in 1975 and the Hanoi regime suddenly had to administer the whole country, China was right there to "help." Most of the professional class escaped, fearful of being "re-educated." It looks to me like most of what now passes for Vietnamese culture has a lot of Chinese influence-- at least, the music coming out of Vietnam nowadays sounds Chinese to me, by contrast with records released by Vietnamese expatriate musicians in the USA.

[mumon]

13. Vietnam certainly doesn't look Chinese ...

Haven't been there, but it really is quite a different culture.

[colorado_ufo]

31. For that matter, Tibet certainly does not look Chinese!

Anyone who has made the acquaintance of Tibetans will see distinct features and greater height than the average Chinese. Also, they have a unique culture, religion, and language.

It is a unique country, with a unique people.

[DBoon]

27. I agree with you on Mexico

Texas was and should be part of Mexico.

Respecting this historical national claim would eliminate Tom DeLay and Shrub from US politics forever.

[Character Assassin]

29. Not even close

Using that reasoning, Mexico should turn over that territory to the native tribes who inhabited it before the Spaniards ever showed up.

[xchrom]

8. i seperate taiwan and tibetan issues

tibet has a very seperate cultural identity and as tibetan nationals have not thought of themselves as part of china.
if there is an independant taiwanes movement -- then it has to be understood in terms of more recent history -- because there is historical linkage to the mainland.
and as the other posters are noting corporate interests would have to be ferreted out from the desires of the rest of the citizenry.

[dArKeR]

9. If you go back 1/2 the time of 'historical linkage' Mexico gets back 1/3

of the United States and the rest of America would be a provinces of Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland...

We're talkin well over 300 years for Formosa.

[JohnKleeb]

18. Ireland?

Britain more likely. We arent the same ya know. I am part Irish for the record.

[dArKeR]

28. I usually skip England because of Butcher Blair.

[northzax]

42. course Ireland would be part of the UK

so it's sorta right.

[BansheeBarbie]

11. I Can't Believe The Imperial Apologists Posting On This Thread

I suppose you are all hunky dory with the U.S. seizing assets in Iraq right now...

After all, White People have had a toe hold in and claim to various territories in the Middle East
since the Crusades.

Forget the Rule of Law and the slow evolution of Humanity towards International Rights.

Possession by Force has made a come back in a big way lately.

[mumon]

12. "Imperial apologists?"

No.

Are you an apologist for feudalism? (Tibet's social structure prior to the Communist takeover. Which the Dalai Lama only repudiated AFTER exile.) Are you a supporter of religious oppression? If not, then I suppose you have problems with the Dalai Lama's suppression of the Dorje Shugden devotees.

For government by terrorists? (Taiwan's KMT's ancestry.)

Like I said, nobody's as pure as the driven snow here.

[Flubadubya]

16. Would you mind posting some links...

to all these references you have made to the "oppressive" Dalai Lama? Have I been living in wonderland, ignorant of history? I had no idea that the Dalai Lama was a religious oppressor? Please share the information that is the source of your displeasure with the holy one.

Sorry... other than the one link you have already posted. What is the World Tibet News Network anyway?

[mumon]

19. OK

First:

http://www.tibet.ca/english/index.html

The Canada Tibet Committee (CTC) is an independent non-governmental organisation of Tibetans and non-Tibetans living in Canada, who are concerned about the continuing human rights violations and lack of democratic freedom in Tibet...

Here's some other links:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-dec98/tibet_7-7a.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/293986.stm

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

[mumon]

20. OK

First:

http://www.tibet.ca/english/index.html

The Canada Tibet Committee (CTC) is an independent non-governmental organisation of Tibetans and non-Tibetans living in Canada, who are concerned about the continuing human rights violations and lack of democratic freedom in Tibet...

Here's some other links:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-dec98/tibet_7-7a.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/293986.stm

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

[Flubadubya]

21. I have reviewed your links, thank you for posting them...

So, the Dalai Lama is a very, very bad man then, and Tibetan Buddhism (as practiced by the monks) is a sham? Oh, is there nothing sacred left in the world? ;(

So much for refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, eh?

All the more reason not to confuse the finger with the moon.

[sujan]

22. well

his links proved that Dalai Lama has some skeletons in his closet.

[mumon]

24. Yeah.

Even in Buddhism, practice caveat emptor.

It is, after all, something I think Shakyamuni himself would have recommended.

[Flubadubya]

35. No man is perfect...

but I seriously doubt that the Dalai Lama is a "very, very bad man"... which you didn't bother to disagree with. Methinks you have a Sharpee in this fight?

[colorado_ufo]

32. What he didn't know/didn't do right in this lifetime,

he will learn and do better in the next.

[Cato1]

15. A comment

"I Can't Believe The Imperial Apologists Posting On This Thread."

My guess is that they are Chinese-Americans rooting for the homeland. Many of them don't share the liberal western view on the question of Tibet.

[mumon]

17. Uh, not me...

But, the "liberal western views" on Tibet are, well, a bit idealized to say the least.

We like to think of the Tibet as some unspoiled Shangri-La, ruined by those nasty Chi-comms, but the truth is, it wasn't a Shangri-La before the Chinese entered, and it's not one now.

Don't get me wrong- the Chinese government has been very brutal, but it wasn't like there wasn't an external threat to them.

An analogy might be the Civil War- the Brits were doing what they could to help the South, because it would weaken the United States.

[Character Assassin]

23. Chinese-Americans' homeland is the United States

My guess is that they are Chinese-Americans rooting for the homeland.

Do I understand you correctly that your position is that citizens born here of Chinese ancestry actually consider their 'homeland' to be the People's Republic of China?

[David__77]

26. Many immigrants still have ties to their home country, yes...

and the fact is that most Chinese-Americans who are first generation, identify with the PRC, not Taiwan. So, yes, the claim is accurate to some extent--the extent that some do consider China their homeland.

[ScotTissue]

14. Maybe as a Chinese citizen, he can vote for Tibetan independence

Oh wait...no one in China can vote.

[proud patriot]

25. FREE TIBET

:-(

[BuddhaGirl]

30. DITTO!!!

www.tibet.org

[maggrwaggr]

33. Hell, that makes me wanna go shop at WalMart!!

Let's go, y'all! Chinese products RULE!

[He loved Big Brother]

34. The Dalai Lama-

He has made me who I am today, and as a critical thinker whom has no trust for...well...just about anything, I will always love him and trust him. He is god, god is love, love is god, the Dalai Lama is walking-talking love personified.

[sujan]

36. what?

Dalai is no god.

[He loved Big Brother]

37. My definition of "god"

is a universal one, that doesn't exclude anything or anybody, and to me everyone is part of god, and I think love and grace help you realize your god-consciousness. So to me we are all god. Some humans know they are god. Such as Jesus. That's the only difference between "us" and "them".

So yes, the Dalai Lama is just as much god to me as anybody else.

[BuddhaGirl]

38. you're right, he isn't a god

and the Buddhists don't believe in god. They do believe everyone has a Buddha nature, though.

[Character Assassin]

39. Tibetan Buddhism is still rife with Bon

And many of its practioners most certainly do believe in various versions of gods, of the Buddha being god, etc...

As do many other forms of Buddhism.

[sujan]

40. exactly

there's a lot of shaman elements attached to it.

[Flubadubya]

41. Buddha himself eschews self /god in anything...

as he said, (and it is borne out by modern physics)...

"Form is emptiness, emptiness form."

All concepts of "self" and/or "god" are illusions.