Democratic contender Dean alters Cuba stand

[Mika]

Democratic contender Dean alters Cuba stand
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6618815.htm

SPOKANE, Wash. - As he surges to the top of the race for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination and begins to think about a potential contest against President Bush, former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean says he is shifting his views on the trade embargo with Cuba.

Speaking to reporters during a four-day national campaign swing, Dean said he supports rolling back the embargo in order to encourage human-rights advancements -- but citing Fidel Castro's recent crackdowns on dissidents, says that in recent months he has become convinced that ``we can't do it right now.''

Dean called Cuba a ''political question,'' and said that recent developments on the island would prevent him from his goal of ``constructive engagement of Cuba.''

At what point are Dems candidates going to grow some SPINE regarding sanctions on Cuba and the denial of American's travel rights. Do they ALL have to pander the the extremist Miamicubano minority (about 2% of Fla voters)?

[Kolesar]

1. Those Cubans have financial influence

They funded Joe Lieberman's campaign to unseat Senator Lowell Weicker. They also seem to have some sleazy connections to clandestine extra-legal operatives from what I recall (don't quote me on that one).

[papau]

2. Dean has a reasonable position - why flame him?

<snip>Dean said he supports rolling back the embargo in order to encourage human-rights advancements -- but citing Fidel Castro's recent crackdowns on dissidents, says that in recent months he has become convinced that ``we can't do it right now.''Dean called Cuba a ''political question,'' and said that recent developments on the island would prevent him from his goal of ``constructive engagement of Cuba.''''If you would have asked me six months ago, I would have said we should begin to ease the embargo in return for human-rights concessions,'' he said, responding to a question from a Herald reporter at a dinner Sunday night in Seattle. ``But you can't do it now because Castro has just locked up a huge number of human-rights activists and put them in prison and show trials. You can't reward that kind of behavior if what you want to do is link human-rights behavior with foreign trade.''


<snip>''I can't say I know him, but I appreciate his sensitivity to the issue,'' said Joe Garcia, executive director of the Cuban American National Foundation and one of the harshest recent critics of Bush's Cuba policies. ``He's saying what any reasonable person would say.''

[Catch22Dem]

3. Where did he/she flame Dean?

It's just one DUer pointing out an article.

[Mika]

5. Reasonable?

So I guess Dean supports the US's funding of the so called "dissident" ops in Cuba.

``But you can't do it now because Castro has just locked up a huge number of human-rights activists and put them in prison and show trials. You can't reward that kind of behavior if what you want to do is link human-rights behavior with foreign trade.''

1) Castro doesn't run Cuba's court system

2) They are not "human-rights activists", they are paid operatives of the declared enemy of Cuba.

3) There weren't "show trials". There were fully open trials where the defendents had legal representation.. but Cuba law enforcement officers had infiltrated the US funded "dissident" operations and provided ample damning evidence as to their illegal operations.


Plus, the "You can't reward that kind of behavior if what you want to do is link human-rights behavior with foreign trade" is just simply ridiculous considering the US's trade relations with China, etc..

Dean is pandering to the worst elements of the Miamicuban diaspora.

[IndianaGreen]

52. Some politicians whore themselves to CANF, others to AIPAC

and some to both.

One big demerit to Dean.

[JNelson6563]

4. so you mean that

Dean's opinion on a situation changed when the situation changed???

OMG!!! That evil bastard!!!



Julie

[Mika]

7. The Bushco situation?

"so you mean that Dean's opinion on a situation changed when the situation changed???"

You mean the Cuban "exile"/Otto Reich/Bushco created situation?

[bread_and_roses]

6. Expediency...

...this is utterly revolting. Like we embargo other human rights violators, right? I cannot fathom the support for this man.

[PsychoDad]

8. Sorta saddened to see this shift.

I guess you have to go where the money is. Not meaning to sound like I'm flaming here, but it seems to me, IMHO, that Dean's principles are muteable depending on the situation. First was his stand on contributions, now this.

Is this a historical trend, or just a recent occurance ? This sort of thing makes me more willing to back Kuchnich in the primary.

Thanks in advance for any input

[plurality]

17. no he seems to have several instances of changing his stances

Death penalty- once anti now pro
Social Security- once for raising the limits now against
Cuba- Once for lifting the embargo now against


Interesting, n'est ce pas?

[sendero]

89. ya know....

.... I know this comes as a surprise and a shock to many people - but if you don't go to where the votes are you don't get elected.

Does that mean you sell out to a cause or belief that is seriously opposed to your own? No. It means you have flexibility and you choose your battles.

You just keep looking for that candidate who makes the exact same choices you would make on every single issue. And then try, try to get him elected. That would be fun to watch.

disclaimer: my ox isn't getting gored. While in general, I agree that our policies vis a vis Cuba are ridiculous, the whole issue of Cuba doesn't amount to a zit on my backside. Excuse my pragmatism, I want Bush gone.

[Mika]

93. your ox is gored

"disclaimer: my ox isn't getting gored. While in general, I agree that our policies vis a vis Cuba are ridiculous, the whole issue of Cuba doesn't amount to a zit on my backside. Excuse my pragmatism, I want Bush gone."


If Americans had real representation then the disproportionate influence of the Miamicubano "exile" minority wouldn't have existed and corrupted the election during the 2000 fraud.

If you wanted a different president other than shrub, then the Miamicuban influence and fraud in prior Miami-Dade elections should have been paid closer attention to, not less. It is not pragmatic to be espousing a stick-your-head-in-the-sand approach to the corruption of our democracy. That'll keep w* in office.

-

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGA135RSUJD.html

<snip>
But many, including Gov. Jeb Bush, remain convinced the package of election reforms introduced since 2000 has turned Florida's election process into a national model.
<snip>

[Judi Lynn]

96. The old "What I don't know won't hurt me" syndrome, right?

:eyes:

A good candidate for the Lincoln Diaz-Balart "good citizen" award!



Gee, is that Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Florida Republican Representative who drove Colorado Representative David Skaggs out of office through a vicious assault when he dared to cross him on supporting Cuban "exile" PORK "TV Marti" standing between George Bush and Jeb Bush?

[THUNDER HANDS]

9. Dean isn't GOD

Don't expect him to do everything you think is right. By election day, you'll find you agree with Dean on as many issues as you disagree with him on.

This is a small part of why I support Kerry, he'll agree with DUers on more issues than Dean will. Overall.

[peacetalksforall]

11. I'll never support a candidate who will get our tax money from

Cuban Americans.

No wonder there are so many disenfranchised citizens who don't vote and throw up their hands at politics.

If you don't learn how Cuban-Americans make money on our tax dollars with their antique positions on Cuba that they turn into a money 'opportunities' and if you don't learn how politicians profit from their association with these Cuban-Americans extortionists, and if you don't learn that everything else is just mouth moving exercise, you'll get 43 more years of being held hostage.

[Say_What]

20. Very well said

and so true!! The anti-Cuba industry is alive, well, and VERY lucrative in South Florida.

Check out the dems on the Cuban-American Contributions to Presidential Candidates (by cycle)*

http://www.opensecrets.org/pubs/cubareport/presreceipts.asp

[Say_What]

19. Someone who panders to the thugs who helped steal the 2000 election

is hardly anyone who I would put my trust or vote in for.

[Umbram]

21. Not even a false prophet

But with the hype bubble in place, one wouldn't know it.

Wouldn't blow my mind a bit if next thing we hear Dean's trying to woo big oil, etc, etc.

[Ardee]

87. Agree with him?

Sooner or later perhaps, as he seems to change his stance whenever the wind blows, or rather whenever some poll shows a few voters may be seduced by few sentences......I believe that, whoever I choose to support, he will be consistant, honest and true to his beliefs, not someone like Howie who waffles almost daily.

[Gman]

10. Sorry, Dean supporters but...

it's this type of waffling that made the disasterous MTP interview and it's this type stuff that, should Dean get the nomination, will spell disaster in November 04.

The Big Dog had a knack for doing it and making it seem like a reasoned judgement. Dean, unfortunately, is no Big Dog.

[w4rma]

28. I think Dean has an *extremely* reasonable argument

I read it up in papau's post and I would have a tough time arguing against it. I see that you don't even try.

[Gman]

30. I'm not saying Dean's stance is not reasonable because it is

I'm just saying he better figure out what his stances are and stick to them. He can't have it every way. That comes back to bite you in the butt.

[liberalmuse]

12. Well, that's disapointing...

The Cuban embargo has got to end. There's always going to be some excuse not to lift it. I hope Dean reconsiders. I'm so sick of the old Batista regime's supporters influence in this country.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

13. How many people...

are locked up in cells in Cuba, denied a trial, denied a lawyer, denied contact with their families, "interrogated" daily and with a threat of execution hanging over their heads?

Free the political dissidents in Cuba! Shut down Camp X-Ray!

The hypocrisy of this stance of Dean's is astounding.

[Karmadillo]

14. Ted Rall on Howard Dean

No candidate is perfect, unfortunately, but it is possible Dean is not quite as liberal as one might hope.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/universalhealing/message/9463

Liberal Democrats Project Their Desires onto Howard Dean

Ted Rall

MONTPELIER, VERMONT--Howard Dean, media-anointed Lord of the Left and
Prince Protector of Progressivism, is surfing a tsunami of Democratic
discontent that could carry him to the White House. But as Vermonters tell
anyone who's willing to listen, the former governor they call "Ho-Ho" is at
best a leftie-come-lately. "The Howard Dean you are seeing on the national
scene is not the Dean that we saw around here for the last decade. He's moved
sharply left," says John McClaughry of the Ethan Allen Institute, a rightie
think tank, of Dean's campaign rhetoric.

Vermont created proto-gay marriage "civil unions" during Dean's term--but
that was the state Supreme Court's doing, not his. Even though Vermont's
constitution didn't require him to balance the budget, he was a fierce deficit
hawk who vetoed proposed Democratic spending. He sided with ski resort owners
over environmentalists. And when big business called, he always picked up the
phone. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss
our issues, and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see
how things were going," gushes IBM's John O'Kane.

According to Vermonters, Dean is a shrewd operator who saw millions of
anti-Iraq (news - web sites) war demonstrators last spring for what they were:
untapped Democratic primary voters. A few well-placed verbal broadsides spread
his reputation as the only presidential contender willing to go after Bush
while other Democrats remained silent or supported his war. His opportunistic
Bush-bashing attracted liberal voters tired of being taken for granted and
disgusted by do-nothing "Republican Lite" Dems.

Liberals are driving Dean's come-from-nowhere campaign, but they don't
share his take on most issues. "If he gets the nomination, he'll run back to
the center and be more mainstream," predicts Republican resort owner Bill
Stenger. "He was not a left-wing wacko."

more...

[Jacobin]

23. I wonder who Ted Rall supports?

[peacetalksforall]

15. No to Dean

No support.
No really democratic positions?
No support from this voter.

You can't win on one position.

[Say_What]

16. More pandering to the Calle Ocho lunatics

and their 40 year vendetta against Fidel Castro. Last paragraph says it all:

''Look, the road to the White House goes through South Florida, and anyone who's running for president is looking at the numbers,'' Garcia added.

No lack of hubris in that remark. Is there ONE pol out there who has the COJONES to not pander to these creeps? This sh*t has been going on since JFK's time for keeerist's sake and now they're of the impression that they control who gets in the WH. Batista politics alive and well in South Florida migrating quickly to Washington. Who's country is this, anyway? :puke:

[Sagan]

18. this sounds pretty smart to me...

God forbid we have a President with a flexible and reasoned foreign policy.

As much as I'm in favor of complete engagement with Cuba, the point of that engagement would be to show that the Cuban government can't get something for nothing. If they crack down on dissidents, they're not going to advance their case here. That's common sense.

I wished we used this policy with China, too.

[bread_and_roses]

22. Reasoned?

There is nothing "reasoned" about this policy other than expediency. We have a history of not only trading with but supporting brutal and torturing dictators with guns and money. This embargo is pure pandering, and everyone knows it. It is morally dispicable.

[sangh0]

25. That's Bush*-lite

What you fail to recognize is that the dissidents that Castro recently jailed were acting as agent provocateurs for the US. Bush* had recently instructed our people in Cuba to encourage Cuban dissidents to call for an overthrow of the govt, something Bush* wouldn't allow in this country (without permission)

[realFedUp]

24. sounds reasoned to me

like putting heavy security in place in Iraq before
bringing in civilians to start up programs....

[Sean Reynolds]

26. Where the hell does it say he WONT roll back the embargo?

Hm, all I see is that he said: "we can't do it right now." Tell me HOW that is not rolling back the complete embargo?

I still have a strong belief Dean will roll back the embargo if elected - in due time.

[sangh0]

27. Here's where

Dean objects to Castro's human rights record. Seeing as how Cuba is not going to do much to improve it's treatment of "dissidents" (aka US-paid operatives) it's unreasonable to assume Dean would end the embargo. This is bolstered by Dean's not describing the circumstances under which the embargo would be ended. Furthermore, it's obvious that his policy is motivated by electoral considerations, and not political philosophy because of the simple fact that decades have proven that the embargo does nothing to improve Cuba's human rights record

[Sean Reynolds]

31. Sounds like YOUR opinion.

Didn't state that in the article, now did it? Dean didn't say that, did he?

[sangh0]

35. Looks who's talking

I could ask you the same questions. You said "I still have a strong belief Dean will roll back the embargo if elected - in due time."

It didn't state that in the article, now did it? Dean didn't say that, did he?

[Sean Reynolds]

37. Dean backed up my word.

Re-read my post. He said, and I quote: ``we can't do it right now.''

He didn't say we CAN NEVER DO IT. He said not right now. For all we know he can change it one year into his term.

[sangh0]

39. In your dreams

Dean did not say he would lift the embargo at some time in the future. Your confidence is based on nothing more than wishful thinking. For all we know, he will never change it

[Sean Reynolds]

48. And your negativity is based on biased opinion.

Your point?

How about you go attack all the other candidates that have come out and SAID they wont lift the embargo?

At least Dean is keeping an open mind, whether or not you want to see it is up to you.

[Ripley]

50. There are people here who will not tell you who they back.

That way you cannot return the favor and point out the flaws of their candidate.

Oops, I forgot their candidates are perfect on every issue. Whatever the hell that means. The tone of some DUers is as lock-step jack-booted as the neo-fascists of the Bush cabal. Must.....think....alike.....on.....every.....issue...

[ikojo]

29. As Dean and other "marginal" Dems rise

to the top and seek out the corporate money you will see other positions "moderate."

This is not surprising to me in the least. It is to be expected. He was branded a leftie and now he is going out of his way to prove how far to the right he can go.

I am sick of the Cuban mafia in Florida holding politicians hostage to their narrow point of view.

[Voltaire99]

33. Sad but true--watch Dean's spine shrivel day by day!

This is partly the influence of an unprincipled and right-leaning Dem party leadership upon Dean, who is rapidly showing he has little in the way of backbone.

The more they screech that he can't run from the left, the more he is drawn into their pitiful "center," the home of Bush lite.

Sad to see Dean couldn't even hold out to the first primary, but wishful liberals have been warned repeatedly that this man is a right wing porker hiding behind some quasi-liberal positions. All you have to do is scratch the surface:

Pro trade emargo
Criticizes Iraq war, but says we can't leave
Won't discuss cutting military budget
Dangles rewards for corporations
Considering running with a general who bombed the hell out of civilians

It will only get worse with time...

[eablair3]

34. agreed, ... Dean is a disappointment

but, many were warning about everyone about the guy.

Kucinich is the only option of those in the Dem race at present, imho. Dean is out as far as I'm concerned.

I think you are right, ... he will only go more to the "right" in the coming days. It shows that he has no backbone, and is no different than many other politicians who will say or do practically anything to get elected and get the power. Disappointing.

[sangh0]

36. Well, he's definitely

not going to "go left"

[Umbram]

54. Kucinich...the only hope

don't bother with the "he can't possibly win" line.

read it a million times.

no need.

[IndianaGreen]

63. Kucinich is as bad as Dean on the Cuba issue!

and he panders to the Miami Cubans in the same manner:

Dennis Kucinich on Foreign Policy

Voted YES on keeping Cuba travel ban until political prisoners released.

Stop enforcing travel restrictions on US citizens to Cuba, only after the president has certified that Cuba has released all political prisoners, and extradited all individuals sought by the US on charges of air piracy, drug trafficking and murder.

Bill HR 2590 ; vote number 2001-270 on Jul 25, 2001

http://www.issues2000.org/OH/Dennis_Kucinich_Foreign_Policy.htm

What about our own political prisoners, Dennis?

BTW, those "prisoners" were terrorists working for CIA. They were exposed for the gusanos they were at their trial.

[Chango]

32. I agree with Dean because....

I've been to Cuba as recently as 3 years ago, and I came away strongly opposed to the embargo. However, Castro's recent crackdowns changed my mind. There will be no progress on Cuba until the old fart dies, so there's no purpose served - politically speaking - in aligning oneself in any way with that crumbling, and yes, despotic regime.

That said, there is also no purpose in strengthening the embargo or escalating the conflict. Just leave it alone until Castro dies or the Cuban people get rid of their sentimental attachment to him.

[piece sine]

79. there's almost no talk of Castro...

I think about Cuba these days from a different part of my heart. Something changed when Castro cracked down on dissidents. You couldn't help but wanna sort-out a few ugly realities about a place I love. Oh...to see Havana gently restored, it's arcades preserved and hopping with life.

We've taken a second look at Nader. We need to revisit Club Castro. Methinks Dean is quite right to note the recent crackdown. If you don't, yer really not a democrat and what's worse, you leave room for REPUBLICANS to do what that keep on doing.

Stop acting like a Democrat and starting thinking like a democrat.

It's Dean.


I trust him to deal with issues involving Castro that must be addressed. Many DUs glossover Fidel's late-term, retro-Marx, military-motif brutalism. Again -- I love Cuba! But I sense there are real problems with the Castro status-quo and Dean is prescient to go there. Kerry would never be so bold. Kucinch wouldn't dare. And Dean beats a bold path to the center on a no-brainer. This guy could win an election if he keeps this up.

[peacetalksforall]

81. gee, can't your SEE what's going on?

You take two guys with little round tummies and you orchestrate dissidents. (Otto) Reich and Rove and professional Cuban-American CIA 'experts'. They sent people there and they fished and farmed for people to do this. Those dissidents are groomed.

It's another ridiculous plot against Castro.

Those Cuban-Americans are never going to wake up and realize that it is 2003.

They have wanted a war against Castro for 43 years and they want OUR YOUNGSTERS to do the soldiering.

But in the meantime they don't mind the money they rake in from American taxpayers and the politicians don't mind the kickbacks from the Cuban-American associations.

That little dissident trick is another truckload of hogwash, just like all the other plots. It is so transparent, it's too bad you can't see it.

Do you think agents of the U.S. should be wined and dined by Castro?

[Mika]

85. Its thinking like this

"We need to revisit Club Castro. Methinks Dean is quite right to note the recent crackdown. If you don't, yer really not a democrat.."

Not really a democrat? get yer head out yer ass.

A crackdown on foreign paid agents is not a crackdown on "dissidents'. there are plenty of legitimate political voices IN Cuba that need no help from Miami or Washington's blood money.



".. and what's worse, you leave room for REPUBLICANS to do what that keep on doing. "

So the Democratic party should support the undemocratic sanctions on Americans and the embargo on Cuba (and American businesses), as well as fund and support so called "dissidents" in Cuba that seek to overthrow the Cuban government? the Dems should support Otto Reich's people?


As long as Dems keep pandering to the "exiles" we will have American policies, and American (s)elections, and American's rights influenced by Batista lovin', terrorist suporting Miamicuban extremists.

[Judi Lynn]

88. Anyone wanting to be the "leader"

should STAND UP to these murderous, violent, back-biting, utterly self-seeking Miami Cuban Mafia yahoos.

How can the REST of the country, the NON-RIGHTWINGNUT majority respect a candidate who would even look at them without "busting" into peals of laughter?

Good grief.

Tired of this. Someone should consider appealing to the huge bulk of Floridians who are NOT in love with Miami's Cuban Mafia, for a change. The way it's been going, you'd never know anyone lived in Florida EXCEPT Cuban rightwingnuts, who have been intimidating their Cuban moderate countrymen here for decades.

[Mika]

100. Thank you, JudiLyn, for a concise point

"Someone should consider appealing to the huge bulk of Floridians who are NOT in love with Miami's Cuban Mafia, for a change. "

To some DUers, they don't exist. (Apparently because 'winning is everything' no matter who or what fascists you have to pander to. Might as well nominate Lieberman if that is the case.)



"The way it's been going, you'd never know anyone lived in Florida EXCEPT Cuban rightwingnuts, who have been intimidating their Cuban moderate countrymen here for decades."

Pandering to the undemocratic special interests (in this case, the stark minority of extremists within the Cuban-American community) is good for the Dem party, according to some DUers here.
:puke:

[piece sine]

126. Batista's been dead a long time!

Every human rights group held in esteem by people on this board has condemned Castro. You defend him. You defend a dictator. You defend the poverty he imposes. Do you live there? Why not?

Hard to believe anyone around still defends this type of military junta. Dean is smart and brave and strategic to draw a line in the sand. Imagine if Cuba has a Democratic Party instead of Fidel. It would be another world!

[Mika]

129. Batista died in Fla. Cubans kicked the turd out.(They don't take no shit!)

Hi piece sine :hi:

Don't be so silly. I see no posts defending Castro here. I see many posters saying that they feel that there should be an end to the embargo and sanctions that hurt the Cuban people most. They have posted links indicating that the much respected human rights groups you mention also call for an end to the unjust US sanctions on Cuba. A majority of Americans and their representatives (Dem and repuke) want an end to the sanctions. Are they Castro supporters because they seek an end to the sanctions? No. That would be a ridiculous claim.

[Say_What]

130. WARNING: Full Moon at DU.

Castro has the same effect on some people that the full moon has on wolves: He causes them to howl at the moon and foam at the mouth.

[peacetalksforall]

137. I don't defend Castro...

Our embargo should have been LIFTED when the Berlin Wall CAME DOWN.
Up until then you couldn't get the successfully brainwashed populace of the United States to learn a few facts about the brand of communism coming out of Cuba that we more than tolerated from the USSR and the People's Republic of China. Only one communist country was hated more by our leaders - Albania.

No one in this country allowed us to notice that Castro had behaved on the world scene, had educated poor people to the point that they could export doctors around the world to attend to emergencies and virus outbreaks, and had developed a better human rights record then some of the countries that the U.S. loved and still love (especiallly to do business with, slap backs with, dine with, and exchange gifts with.

We are a land of grand hypocrites if you examine the history. A lot of countries told us we were crazy by going in and doing busines with Cuba. Instead we stayed with the propaganda and lies of our Cuban Americans and we allowed ourselves to be held hostage.

We are stupid. Or call us uneducated.

And excuse some of it because our cheatin politicians went along with everything the Cuban-Americans wanted. NO OTHER IMMIGRANT GROUP has ever received the BENEFITS and CASH that the Cuban Americans have. The situation in Florida is pathetic. Haitians, Mexicans, Salvadoreans and no one else has been catered to like the Cuban immigrants.

The policies are prejudiced. We are a prejudiced people.

Examine the bull.

[MGKrebs]

38. Tough crowd.

A candidate must be on the correct side of every possible issue, and never even contemplate a slight revision in their position.

Kucinich is out (choice issue).
Kerry is out (pro-war)
Graham- don't know enough about him yet, but he has no money. Out.
Dean is out- see above posts
Clark- talk about waffling and spineless! Can't even decide whether to run. (I'm parodying others- I'm willing to let him take his time.) But he is also a mass murderer according to some. So he's out.
Sharpton- ?
Moseley-Braun?
Gephardt- pro-war- he's out.
Edwards- surely he changed his mind on something, I just can't remember what. Wasn't he pro-war too?
Lieberman- pro-war, he's out.

Damn, I guess it's Sharpton or Carol.

[Ripley]

41. You nailed it.

Let's see, we all know how conservative fundies are taking over our country and let's see, a lot of them are southern racists-types, so let's see....

The black man or the black woman are our only hope of regaining the White House.

:eyes:

[dolstein]

42. I guess you need a little perspective

Dean supporters have been slamming Lieberman for his anti-Castro stance. They consider it to me nothing more than craven pandering to the Cuban Americans in Florida. After all, no rational person could have any complaints about Fidel Castro, right? And surely Howard Dean, the only principled candidate in the race, would never stoop so low as to support the embrago, right?

Sorry, but while I think Dean is right to change his position, I think Dean's supporters deserve a serious taste of their own medicine.

[Ripley]

43. You need to quit lumping us all into one pile.

I've never slammed Lieberman for his anti-Castro stance. There are some of us Dean supporters who do not engage in attacking others and do not put Dean on any high moral hill.

Why do so many DUers become bigots when it comes to which candidate I support?

[dolstein]

45. So when have you taken your fellow Dean supporters to task?

If there are Dean supporters who don't support Lieberman bashing, they seem to be keeping their mouths shut.

[Ripley]

46. I'm not the board's nanny.

I can't control what 30,000 other people say.

I just wish you would not tar all of us by the words of a few people.

I also wonder why you don't see that Clark-supporters, Kerry-supporters, etc. all, yes ALL have a few people in their camps who bash whole-heartedly upon Dean and the others. Why do you single out the Dean people?

[MGKrebs]

49. I don't support Lieberman bashing,

or any other candidate bashing for that matter. (OK, maybe Lieberman, but not his wife!) But the probem is perception- there is no definition of "legitimate criticism". Any criticism is likely to be percieved by somebody as a slam, and they often respond with a slam, and it escalates from there.

We are unlikely to be able to offer criticisms of any of the candidates without someone taking offense. If they want to change the rules of the board to not allow what the Mods see as attacks on candidates, then maybe it could be controlled. But we don't want that, do we? Otherwise, it is up to US to be aware of the reaction our comments might generate, and phrase those comments in such a way as to generate productive discussion, not attacks, if we really want to discuss the issues.

Of course I believe that some members post inflammatory comments on purpose for some reason.

[MGKrebs]

44. Oh, I get it now.

It's Dean supporters that are the problem, not really Dean.
Ok.

Yes, you are right. I also perceive a bit of overzealousness (betcha GW couldn't say that!) on the part of supporters for all (or at least most) of the candidates.

edited for clarity, fairness, and balance.

[peacetalksforall]

82. Moseley-Braun

is impressive!

[shance]

40. Dean, like any leading candidate must choose his battles,

He is wise to state his realization that this situation is not a simple one and I appreciate the fact he has a concern for the dissidents being punished. Fidel Castro has not remained in power all these years by being dumb.

This is not an abrupt about face, but I think a clear recognition of a situation that is not so easily reconciled. It appears it is not something he wants to do, but something he has to do at this time.

Look historically at our Cuban policy. How beneficial diplomatically would it be to face a Perfect Storm of rock solid opposition, not to mention a dictator who has reigned for decades? It will take time and and perhaps more of a shift in Cuba's own governmental policy (and probably Americas as well) before true change can occur.

Dean has to maintain an even balance. I applaud him for publicly stating his shift. He also stated that this is how he views the situation at the present. We should know by now how things change from day to day in politics. I would imagine there will be some significant changes within Cuba in the next 5 to 10 years.

[Merlin]

47. I would rather have this principled course adjustment than lose FL

Evidently the Dean people feel this is needed to carry FL. We saw yesterday that Graham is in trouble in his own state because of his war stand.

Politics is the art of the possible. I would rather see Dean reaching for the stars and having to pull back as reality dictates, than either (a) playing it safe all the time, or (b) sticking to a position of marginal significance and losing because of it.

Winning Is Everything. If you lose, you can do nothing about the things you believe in. This shows me he's a savy guy, and a winner.

[adityanm]

51. As a matter of fact he is set his ground for losing in FL

By supporting anti-Castro gang in Miami he has set the ground for losing rest of Floridians like me.

[Merlin]

55. I really doubt this is anything like THE key issue for most Floridians.

Seems to me the economy, social security, health care, the war might be more important to most.

[bread_and_roses]

70. Will someone please tell me

what is principled about treating Cuba differently than China, for instance? Or the legions of other human rights sinkholes we trade with? Saudi Arabia? Etc. etc. etc. Whatever one thinks of Castro, I can not see any way that this can be considered a "principled" stand.

[Spentastic]

90. Winning Is Everything.... In that case

Why not just murder all your opponents?

Because it isn't everything. Winning is nothing without principle.

There has to be a balance. Surely one must be careful not to capitualte to vested interests all the time?

[Judi Lynn]

91. Bravo, bravo!

Appreciate your unique, and clear post. Excellent.

[David Zephyr]

53. Dean is in Sync With Amnesty International & the European Union

Fidel's crackdown on dissidents, regardless of the justifications, is reprehensible. Any attempt to excuse it is pathetic.

My hope is that Fidel will figure out that he is alienating his friends and sympathizers with such crude, barbaric and vulgar actions.

I am a long time student of the Cuban revolution and I can argue either side of the issue.

In spite of Fidel's many admirable achievements from education and healthcare to simply outsmarting both the imperialistic tentacles of both the U.S. and the Stalinist U.S.S.R. for decades, Fidel's long established record of harassing, murdering and torturing writers, poets, artists and political dissidents is nothing to blink at. It is horrendous.

Reinaldo Arenas' personal and harrowing tale of his decades of suffering persecution and confinement along with Fidel' brutal treatment of homosexuals is hardly a rightwing construct, but an indictment and --- a call for help.

To put things in perspective, I just participated in a marvelous tribute to the life of Ernesto "Che" Guevara in East Los Angeles this week. I believe that Che is one of the 20th Century's most heroic individuals. Fidel's silent complicity with the U.S.S.R. to let Che flounder in Bolivia without funds, without arms, without aid, without communication while the C.I.A. and the Bolivian armed forces tracked him down is unforgivable.

Fidel Castro has thumbed his nose at Amnesty International, the European Union with his "crackdown" on dissidents. Further, Castro has gravely embarrassed our Former President Jimmy Carter who went a long way to help not only lift the U.S. embargo against Cuba, but to help bridge the gulf of paranoia created unjustly by the C.I.A. and Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, Jerry Ford, Ronald Reagan, George H. Bush and George W. Bush --- and, of course, Jesse Helms and the old Cuban ruling class now consigned to feeding tubes in Miami nursing homes.

Howard Dean's "change" is a response to Fidel Castro's unwarranted "change" and is a measured response and a correct response. For Dean to now ignore the newly documented abuses by Amnesty International and the opinion of the European Union who has been Castro's ally for decades against the wrongful U.S. embargo would be foolish and wrong.

I am a socialist and I support Howard Dean's position. So should every progressive American.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250352003

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2983104.stm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/jan-june03/cuba_4-24.html

[Umbram]

56. What??

Please supply examples of where these two organizations suggest an embargo as being the correct response.

"Amnesty International recognises the negative effect of the US embargo on the enjoyment of the full range of human rights in Cuba, and recommends in the June document that the US government revise its policy with a view to ending the harmful practice."

From your amnesty.org link.

The UN has called for an end to the embargo on several occasions.

So, Dean's reversal on this position is in Sync with what exactly???

[Say_What]

62. 11 years in a row the UN has called for an end to the embargo

<clips>

U.N. Urges U.S. to End Cuba Embargo
EDITH M. LEDERER, Associated Press Writer
Wednesday, November 13, 2002

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - For the 11th straight year, the U.N. General Assembly on Tuesday overwhelmingly adopted a resolution urging the United States to end its four-decade trade embargo against Cuba.

The resolution, which is not binding, was approved by a vote of 173-3 with four abstentions — a larger majority than last year when 167 nations voted to lift the embargo.

Only the United States, Israel and the Marshall Islands voted in favor of keeping the embargo, as they did last year.

Ricardo Alarcon, president of Cuba's National Assembly, in a speech before the vote, accused powerful Americans of Cuban descent of acting against what he called the "true interests" of the United States by insisting on the embargo.

http://www.cubacentral.com/article.asp?ID=17

[David Zephyr]

74. Cuba and the Embargo

Howard Dean, a long time supporter of removing the embargo against Cuba, is in sync with the European Union and Amnesty International in his concern with Fidel's crackdown on dissidents. I realize that the title to my post was confusing. I apologize for that. I think that my post was clear, though.

There is no doubt that the EU has opposed the embargo and still does.

Still, let's discuss the "embargo" for a moment.

For the record and for honesty's sake, it is important to point out that the United States is currently the largest single source of agricultural products and food products to Cuba. This includes chicken, pork, beef, rice, beans, eggs, wine, butter, candy, soft drinks, cereals and cookies. In fact, this constitutes nearly $500 million in real trade.

The "embargo" also does not prevent any trade or shipment of medical products to Cuba.

I'm not certain that any Democratic Candidate for President is currently thrilled with Castro's crude and cruel move against these dissidents and I would like to see each of their current positions on further relaxing the terms of the embargo in light of Castro's thumbing of his nose to human rights concerns.

Vaclav Havel, the Former Czech president, has gone so far as to nominate Cuba's leading dissident, Oswaldo Paya, for this year's Nobel Peace Prize.

I cannot imagine that you happy with Castro's history of brutal treatment and murder of artists, poets, writers, and political dissidents.

For the record, I oppose the Most Favored Nation status with China, a terrible abuser of human rights, I oppose NAFTA and the WTO. I support a global living wage and believe that U.S. trading policies should be based on fair trade, not "free trade".

[Merlin]

80. Thanks for your informed and enlightened information, David.

I agree with you. Dean made the right decision.

[Mika]

83. Not informed

"For the record and for honesty's sake, it is important to point out that the United States is currently the largest single source of agricultural products and food products to Cuba. This includes chicken, pork, beef, rice, beans, eggs, wine, butter, candy, soft drinks, cereals and cookies. In fact, this constitutes nearly $500 million in real trade.

The "embargo" also does not prevent any trade or shipment of medical products to Cuba."



Technically, you're right. In reality, wrong.

All of this so called 'trade' with Cuba must be done only with a specific license from Bush's henchmen at OFAC (with approval from murderous types like Otto Reich), and on a cash only basis. This includes medical products.

The brutal murderous Bush regime in its power hungry zeal to oppress/depress Cuba has held up and denied many of the applications.

The sadistic Helms-Burton law is extra territorial in action. By a duplicious US government edict it prevents companies that would sell to Cuba from doing business in the US. Of course the vastly larger US super consumer market wins out. For example, Bayer can't sell Aspirin to Cuba without giving up the US market, according to the unjust, undemocratic, and genocidal US government's Helms-Burton law.




"I'm not certain that any Democratic Candidate for President is currently thrilled with Castro's crude and cruel move against these dissidents and I would like to see each of their current positions on further relaxing the terms of the embargo in light of Castro's thumbing of his nose to human rights concerns."


Foreign (US) paid agents in allegiance with (Miami based and funded) terrorist organizations are not "dissidents". Their arrest and subsequent trials were not "cruel". The Cuban government had penetrated these "dissident" organizations and povided ample evidence of their involvement in illegal activities and receipt of payments from US amb Cason in Cuba as well as Miami based NED funded exile groups. Both the US gov and the NED funded exile groups have openly vowed to attempt overthrow of Cuba's government, which is against Cuban constitutional law 88 (treason - by supporting, aiding or abeting foreign entities seeking to overthrow the government).

[Judi Lynn]

84. I know what I'd think of my NEIGHBOR if he took large chuncks of change

from FRANCE and wrote volumes about how goddawful the U.S. is, for a French anti-U.S. readership!

(To make this more even, France would have had to have been responsible for many assassination attempts on a U.S. President, launched a war, and sponsored and continuously protected assassins guilty of mass murder of U.S. citizens, as well as keeping a blockade around us, as well as strong-arming other countries into staying at a certain distance from the U.S. or suffering consequences. Also, France would have to have ongoing hostility and threats, as well as an actual public celebration of the actual assassins, as in the case of some of the Miami killers.)

[Merlin]

86. So, who would you rather have win the election: Bush or Dean?

The point I made in a post above is that you've got to WIN in order to do the things you want to do.

Clearly Dean wants to eliminate any potential for controversy over the Cuba issue.

Say what you want, Fidel absolutely sucks when it comes to democratization and public relations. (How he does not grasp the importance of at least attempting to open up aspects of his society absolutely baffles me. How can a man so brilliant be so utterly closed-minded?)

The fact is that the "facts" you recite are virtually unknown to even well-informed Americans (moi), and therefore His Royal Heinous would have a field day villifying Uncle Howard as a Castro appeaser and supporter of his "gruesome imprisonment of freedom seeking Cubans."

Howard is doing the right thing. Trust me. There will be time... There will be time... If and only if...

[Mika]

92. speaking of closed minded

"Say what you want, Fidel absolutely sucks when it comes to democratization and public relations. (How he does not grasp the importance of at least attempting to open up aspects of his society absolutely baffles me. How can a man so brilliant be so utterly closed-minded?)"


How can Dems be so closed minded? How can anyone who has done an iota of genuine research (or has actually been to Cuba) say such a thing as the above statement?

You, sir, know NOTHING of what is going on in Cuba if you spew ingorant propaganda like the above.

Castro doesn't micro manage Cuba. The Cuban people do! More Americans would see that for themselves IF our US government would stop denying American's travel rights.



"The fact is that the "facts" you recite are virtually unknown to even well-informed Americans (moi), and therefore His Royal Heinous would have a field day villifying Uncle Howard as a Castro appeaser and supporter of his "gruesome imprisonment of freedom seeking Cubans.""

So, you are saying that in order for Dems to succeed we need to wallow in continued ignorance? That'll get us nowhere.


Merlin, I have been to Cuba many times (legally), including during the 1997-98 election season. Cuba is democratic, and has opened up many alternate opportunities in labor, ownership, press, etc.. To say that Cuba hasn't flies in the face of reality there.

---

Get informed. Here's some info to get your education underway. Hopefully you'll stop spewing your uninformed opinions about Cuba here.



Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Merlin]

94. Oh, please! If Cuba is democratic, where are the elections?

I've read Granma. I know people who visit Castro regularly. I appreciate that Castro has been up against a diabolical enemy (US) and that he has done many good things for the Cuban people. But, please spare me the talk of democratization. There may be some, on a small scale, as in China. But it is nowhere near what is needed to permit Cuba to survive the certain onslaught that is going to come when Castro dies.

If Cuba is such a democracy, if truly contested, multi-party elections are indeed permitted, if the legislature has any genuine, effective power, if it is such a bastion of self-rule, then Fidel's US friends are doing a horrible, unforgiveably lame job of proving this to the American media and the American people, not to mention the world at large.

Nor do you seem to grasp the larger point. This is not tiddlywinks here. This election coming up in '04 is arguably the most important in over 150 years. Our candidate will be judged by Americans who are far, far, far less informed than people like me. If I am utterly unconvinced of democratization in Cuba, how in the name of God do you expect the rest of this culturally crippled, misinformed, lame-brained, uncaring, reactionary, gingoistic American public to elect somebody who appears to offer support to a dictator who appears to suppress all forms of dissent?

Don't you understand that we must elect people in America? That means popular opinion--uninformed and addled as it is--must survive opposition smears to coalesce behind a candidate.

It is way more important to elect a Democrat in '04 than it is to liberalize US Cuban policy. I'm sorry. that is a fact. Period. That's the bottom line. Cuba can wait.

Meantime, those who support Castro had better get off their hands and find an effective way to communicate what you purport to be the truth about his "democracy" to the world at large. I am not going to read anybody's propaganda to become convinced of anything. I'll wait to be shown the genuine facts--if they be other than what I perceive them to be--like everybody else. The US media at large may be lame. But there are plenty of people in it who are capable of conveying the truth at least to the informed public. Start with these people first. Or start with the foreign media. But don't bother trying to start with people like me. I don't care what the truth is. I care what people think the truth is. That's what will determine the '04 outcome. And the '04 outcome is everything.

[Mika]

97. adamantly ignorant

"But, please spare me the talk of democratization. There may be some, on a small scale, as in China. But it is nowhere near what is needed to permit Cuba to survive the certain onslaught that is going to come when Castro dies."

You didn't read any of the links on Cuba's democratic system, obviously. But yet you continue to spew uninformed propaganda.



"If Cuba is such a democracy, if truly contested, multi-party elections are indeed permitted, if the legislature has any genuine, effective power, if it is such a bastion of self-rule, then Fidel's US friends are doing a horrible, unforgiveably lame job of proving this to the American media and the American people.."

That and the adamant refusal to seek real information about, or experience in Cuba. Like yours. EX: "But, please spare me the talk of democratization. There may be some, on a small scale.."

Spare you? You've spared yourself. Don't bother to find out. It easier to continue with your fantasy of Castro, Castro, Castro.


<sarcasm>Plus, if Cuba is retained in the US political debate think of how much payolla the Dems can score from the CANF and the Miamicuban "exile" extremist pro terra crowd. Wouldn't that be a great thing. <sarcasm off>

[Judi Lynn]

99. Mika, the only people I've heard who are obsessed with Castro

are Miami first-wave "exiles" and their "chillun."

Anyone who has taken the time to study Cuban history is well aware that he is not holding that island hostage.

This simplistic propaganda program only seems to really influence the most gullible, and uninformed, wouldn't you say?

Too bad more Americans haven't been awakened from their propaganda laced slumber, they will, and probably sooner than expected.

Too many OTHER Americans in all walks of life and professions are interested in seeing some vile mistakes corrected in our Cuba policy.

[Mika]

105. Kinda makes you wonder why

Kinda makes you wonder why people continue to repeatedly post propaganda on a subject such as their claims that Cuba's democratic system doesn't exist, even after being offered data, info, links, as well as personal experiences posted by DUers who have been to Cuba, that evidence otherwise. They continue the failed rhetoric of the last 40+ years. Why?

Hmmm.

[Merlin]

111. You are utterly hopeless about Cuba, and clueless about American politics.

You have not listened to one single damn word I have said.

You have not a single clue about how politics really work in America, and I suggest that the character of the US government is the furthest concern from your mind.

You are determined to grind your "Cuba is wonderful" bullshit, no matter what.

Well, it is bullshit, pure and simple. I do not believe that the honest observers such as there are on the scene internationally--the ones who have informed us of the truth in Iraq, for example, the ones who reveal the truth about the the neocon white house, the ones who are unafraid to report the truth about US anthrax attacks and US failures in Afghanistan--those truth tellers I do not believe would so utterly fail to disclose to us in the pages of, say, Harpers or the New Yorker or on some valid web blog or in a Krugman column, or some place the slightest bit credible that Cuba has suddenly become a bastion of freedom.

Bullshit! I said. And Bullshit! I continue to say.

I'll be damned if I want my candidate to risk the entire future of America by backing such a flimsy, dishonest, ideological piece of malarkey.

[Mika]

113. Hope less? Ha. I've actually seen it, and been there.

"You are determined to grind your "Cuba is wonderful" bullshit, no matter what.
Well, it is bullshit, pure and simple. "

Keep on keepin on, bubble boy.


".. that Cuba has suddenly become a bastion of freedom."

Didn't happen overnight. You would know this if you knew anything about recent Cuban history. It took many years to develop the democratic system Cuba has now, and it will continue to evolve as per the will and wishes and work of the Cuban people.

How on earth can you believe that the Cuban people are so meek that they would be subjugated by the evil Dr Castro, especially after their performance against the brutal, bloody soaked, US BACKED, murderous Batista dictatorship? In Cuba, unlike America, if their political leadership gets one step outta line.. the people rise up and make their voices heard. Ratification and recall elections are major part of the Cuban democratic system.

Not knowing this means that you don't know jack shit about Cuba or Cuban politics.


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

[Judi Lynn]

115. The Pentagon advised a new look at Cuba

during the Presidency of the properly elected Bill Clinton.

This was interesting, considering they have been allegedly our most war-promoting body (before PNAC'ers were recognized!) and they CERTAINLY were expressing views we don't hear from this bunch of war profiteers in the White House:

(snip) WASHINGTON—The Pentagon has concluded that Cuba poses no significant threat to U.S. national security, and senior defense officials increasingly favor engaging their island counterparts to reduce existing tensions.

In a classified report to be given to Congress by Tuesday, Secretary of Defense William Cohen plans to portray Cuba's Revolutionary Armed Forces as a severely diminished military and to downplay the dangers posed by chemical or biological weapons, or by another refugee exodus, according to people briefed on the findings.

At the same time, retired Marine Gen. John Sheehan has just returned from a weeklong tour of the island—the highest-ranking U.S. officer to visit Cuba since the 1959 revolution—and is urging the Clinton administration to "regularize contacts'' between Cuban and American military chiefs.

Sheehan, who spent several days in the company of Cuban Defense Minister Raul Castro and dined with Fidel Castro, said he "starts with the premise that the Cuban military is not a threat to the U.S. The question is how do we institutionalize this? It doesn't mean diplomatic recognition in the near term.''

The dovish assessment expected from the Defense Department has already drawn cries of dismay from some exile leaders and lawmakers, including the three Cuban-American members of Congress. (snip/...)

http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y98/mar98/30e6.htm


Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and Robert Menendez (by the desk) working that old "exile" magic on a military guy, and their love slave, Republican Dan Burton.

[Say_What]

116. Are you THAT naive??

Your pathetically naive statement: Don't you understand that we must elect people in America? That means popular opinion--uninformed and addled as it is--must survive opposition smears to coalesce behind a candidate.

<clips>

Dubious Democracy 2001
Overview

Just who decides elections to the "people's house" in the United States? The obvious answer is that voters elect the House of Representatives. The not-so-obvious fact is that most Americans, most of the time, experience "no choice" House elections. They live in political monopolies where the talk should be of creating a two-party system, let alone one with viable third parties. With voter turnout shrinking to one of the lowest levels in the world -- a recent study by the Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance found that in national elections since World War II, the United States ranks 103rd in voter participation out of 131 democracies -- and with deep citizen concern over the impact of money in politics, it is high time that we ask if these political monopolies should continue.

Consider a few examples from the 2000 elections:

The average victory margin in U.S. House races was 40% -- meaning winners on average won more than 70% of votes cast in their race. Fewer than one in ten races were won by competitive margins of less than 10%.

Although the number of uncontested seats decreased -- there were 64 in all -- the landslide index increased to a record 77% of all races. This is the highest since before 1992!

397 of all 403 incumbents were re-elected -- that is a success rate of 99%! More than two-thirds(285) of seats are held by incumbents who have won their last two elections by "landslide" margins of least 20% (earning our "untouchable" tag).

Less than 40% of eligible Americans cast a vote in 2000; less than one in three adults voted for the U.S. House member who represents them.

Republican candidates for the House in 1992 won 45% of votes around the country, but only 41% of seats. In 2000, they won 48% of votes, but 51% of seats. Such swings and distortions are often magnified in particular states.

http://www.fairvote.org/2001/overview.htm

---

MONEY WINS BIG IN 2000 ELECTIONS

TOP SPENDERS CAPTURE 9 OUT OF 10 RACES

WASHINGTON, D.C. – In a cliffhanger election where the winner in the presidential sweepstakes is still uncertain, the power of money was evident in race after race across the country for U.S. Congress, an analysis of election returns and campaign spending by the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics reveals. In the overwhelming majority of U.S. House and Senate races, the candidate with the biggest war chest walked home with the victory on Election Day.

In Senate races, 85 percent of the candidates who spent the most money were successful at the polls. In all, 28 Senate winners outspent their opponents. Five won despite being outspent. One race, the match-up between Democrat Maria Cantwell and incumbent Republican Slade Gorton in Washington state, was still undecided as of noon Wednesday. The biggest financial upsets were won by Democrats who beat Republican incumbents, a list that includes Debbie Stabenow in Michigan and Thomas Carper in Delaware. Both victors were outspent roughly 1.7-to-1.

The success ratio for big spenders was even higher in the race for U.S. House. Of the 431 races that were clearly decided by noon Wednesday, 406 were won by the top-spending candidate -- a 94 percent success rate for the candidate with the most money. Twenty-five financial underdogs were successful, but many of them were relatively close to their opponents in overall spending. Only eight House winners were outspent by 2-to-1 or more. The biggest financial underdog to win was Republican Shelley Moore Capito in the open seat race in West Virginia’s 2nd congressional district. Capito was outspent roughly 5.6-to-1 by Democrat James F. Humphreys, whose self-financed campaign cost him more than $5.5 million.

Overall, most House races were won easily by incumbents. In open seat races where no incumbent was running, 76 percent of the candidates who spent the most money were successful.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pressreleases/Post-Election2000.htm

---

The State of Democracy in California
By Steven Hill
May 8, 2003

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Doctor of Democracy. And you are going to diagnose the patient of democracy that is lying on the gurney before you -- that is, democracy in California. Like any good doctor, you need to read the vital signs of the patient. The vital signs of democracy are things like voter turnout, competitiveness of elections, how many seats were uncontested or won by landslides, and more.

So you take a reading of the first vital sign: voter turnout. The voter turnout for California's most recent governor's race was the lowest in state history. Only about 30 percent of the state's 21.7 million eligible voters bothered to go to the polls, dropping California to 47th in state rankings for voter turnout. Voter turnout for congressional and local races has been even lower. Here in San Francisco, our last city attorney race had voter turnout in a December runoff of about 13 percent of eligible voters.

Moreover, voter turnout is lower among some groups than others. Who doesn't vote? Young people, poor people, and people of color disproportionately vote less than older, whiter and wealthier people. So when people and pundits like George Will say "Maybe they don't vote because they are satisfied," we know that turnout is lowest among those people who have LEAST reasons to be satisfied.
So you take a reading of the second vital sign: competitiveness of elections. In the 2002 California congressional elections, 50 out of 53 seats either were uncontested (two seats) or were won by huge landslide margins of 60 to 40 percent or higher (48 seats). Two more seats were won by a non-competitive margin of 55 to 45 percent or higher, for a total of 52 out of 53 races - 98 percent -- that weren't even close. The victor was foreordained, and there was no choice for voters in these races other than to ratify the only candidate who stood a chance of winning.

At the state legislative level in 2002, out of 80 Assembly seats, 70 of these either were uncontested (eight seats) or were won by huge landslide margins of 60 to 40 percent or higher (62 seats). Five more seats were won by a non-competitive ten point spread (55 to 45 percent or higher), for a total of 75 out of 80 races - 94 percent -- that weren't even close. State senate races saw the same kinds of results. Eighteen of the twenty seats up for election either were uncontested (six seats) or were won by huge landslide margins of 60 to 40 percent or higher (12 seats). One more seat was won by a non-competitive ten point spread (55 to 45 percent or higher), for a total of 19 out of 20 races - 95 percent -- that weren't even close.

http://www.fairvote.org/op_eds/hillhava.htm

[Judi Lynn]

119. Too strange for words - - - -

(snip) In Senate races, 85 percent of the candidates who spent the most money were successful at the polls.(snip)

Pity the poor countries which don't have anything as clean as our elections. They must just be backward.

[piece sine]

128. This why we lose elections...

Quote: "If I am utterly unconvinced of democratization in Cuba, how in the name of God do you expect the rest of this culturally crippled, misinformed, lame-brained, uncaring, reactionary, gingoistic American public to elect somebody who appears to offer support to a dictator who appears to suppress all forms of dissent?

Don't you understand that we must elect people in America? That means popular opinion--uninformed and addled as it is--must survive opposition smears to coalesce behind a candidate."

Your view of Americans is hardly within the open, all-embracing spirit of ther Democratic Party. I fid you view of our fellow citizens toxicly repugnant. I love people; I may disagree with them...but you're waaaay over the line!

And this writer has the GALL to talk about winning an election! Folks -- an attitudeabout the voting public such as the one displayed here GUARANTEES us another four more years of Bush. I love Americans! I love Cubans- -I want them both to be free.

[Karmadillo]

58. AP: Amnesty Wants U.S. to Review Cuba Embargo

http://www.cubacentral.com/article.asp?ID=50

NEW YORK - Amnesty International wants the U.S. government to rethink its embargo against Cuba, a measure the group said has not helped improve human rights.

"We recognize that the embargo is an ineffective mechanism for promoting human rights, and the organization is gravely concerned that in some situations it has contributed to abuses," said Dr. William F. Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA.

In a report released Monday, the group criticized a recent crackdown on Cuba's opposition, the country's use of the death penalty and the quick trials and executions of three men convicted of trying to hijack a ferry.

more...

[David Zephyr]

75. You Are Correct.

See my post #74.

[Karmadillo]

57. Why continue this policy?

Here's an interesting article giving background on the most recent crackdown on dissent. Worth reading the whole thing, but here are a couple of brief excerpts:

http://www.cubacentral.com/article.asp?ID=35

<edit>

The Bush Administration was uncomfortable with signs of greater tolerance on Castro’s part, for that simply encouraged those who wanted to ease travel controls and begin dismantling the embargo. New initiatives along those lines were expected in the Congress this spring. What to do to head them off? What the Administration did is clear enough. It ordered the Chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana to begin a series of high-profile and provocative meetings with dissidents, even holding seminars in his own residence and passing out equipment of various kinds to them. He even held press conferences after some of the meetings. Such meetings might have been considered routine, had the purpose not been regime change. But given that it was, the Cubans came to see them as “subversive” in nature and as increasingly provocative. Those arrested were not, by and large, charged with expressing themselves against the state, but with “plotting with American diplomats.”

<edit>

The Cubans did exactly what the Bush Administration had hoped they would do. Virtually the whole active dissident community has now not only been arrested but put on trial (or notified that they soon will be) to face extremely heavy sentences – some perhaps even life imprisonment. Tragic. This is a blot that will not be easily erased and that will impede any significant progress in U.S.-Cuban relations until there is some amelioration of conditions in Cuba. The Bush Administration meanwhile will certainly continue the pressures, and the provocations, so as to prevent any such amelioration. It has been argued that Castro simply saw this as a propitious moment to halt dissent in Cuba, and there are doubtless some elements of truth to that argument. Castro has never liked to be criticized. Still, over the past few years, he had tolerated criticism of the system. All things being equal, he might have continued to do so. But the situation has changed, not just between the U.S. and Cuba, but internationally, in ways that the U.S. public is just beginning to understand. In the dark days that lie ahead, people of good will in the United States who want to see a more normal relationship between our two countries, and to see a more open society in Cuba, should hold to the demonstrable truth that the best way to bring about both is through the reduction of tensions, the beginning of a meaningful dialogue and increased contacts. As Elizardo Sanchez, Cuba’s leading human rights activist, has often put it, “the more American citizens in the streets of Cuban cities, the better for the cause of a more open society; so why do you maintain travel controls?” The policies followed by one administration after another over the past 44 years have accomplished nothing positive. True to form, the policy followed by the Bush Administration has produced only a crackdown. Exactly what we should not want!

more...

[FubarFly]

59. There are a lot of opinions being thrown around in this thread as facts.

I would imagine, if Dean didn't criticize Fidel's "crackdown",
there would be people hammering him for supporting human rights abuses.

Dean states his both his position and his reasons for his change quite clearly. Dean is not reversing his prior stand. This should obvious to anyone without an anti-Dean agenda. The people who say that Dean is kowtowing to the Miami exiles are at this stage engaging in mere speculation.

Dean could very well be sincere about someday rolling back the embargo,
and then again, he may not. The same could be said for Wesley Clark.
There is absolutely no way to know with certainty what any Democrat would do until that person takes office.

Personally, I trust Dean will do what he believes is right. This statement is just as valid as any other opinion espoused in this thread.

[DS1]

60. waffling, god damn i hate waffling

I don't like waffles either, but that's for another forum.

Why can't people just stick to a goddamn story, instead of appeasing to a load of quasi-anarchists in southern florida?

[FubarFly]

61. What makes you think appeasement is his motivation?

Do you have evidence that he perhaps met with the exiles? Or any other hard evidence?

Couldn't his stated reasons just as easily be his actual reasons?

[DS1]

64. do you have evidence otherwise?

What foreign policy meetings has he been in? What economic reviews has he been a part of? None, he's been campaigning, this is an early switch for what shouldn't even be a crucial state in the first place.

I still like the guy, but it's clear (at least to me) this is only for votes.

[FubarFly]

65. Dean was in Washington state.

Geographically that is quite some distance from Florida. IMHO it is more likely that he is speaking his mind, rather than pandering for votes.

[DS1]

66. Again we disagree

Location is irrelevant in this day and age, especially for someone so connected to the internet, it's the message that counts.

[FubarFly]

68. We agree that we are in disagreement

A press conference in Washington state is not the place to send a message to exiles in Florida. If this was timed for political reasons, he would have waited until he was in Florida to announce his shift. He would reach more potential voters/contributors that way. Dean has a habit of getting in trouble by speaking his mind. As a Dean supporter, I've come to expect it.

[DS1]

69. I see it as ducking the media fallout that would occur

if he had changed his opinion on the matter in Fl. In Washington, I suspect very few people care about the stupid U.S. politics of Cuba and Castro, he alters his approach as far away as continentally possible, and shows up a few months later in Fl saying he's always been anti-Castro. Simple politics.

[FubarFly]

71. I don't buy it. If geography doesn't matter, then by your own argument,

Dean would face political fallout regardless of where he was when he made the announcement.

It sounds to me like you're looking for reasons to dislike Dean.

Again, we both have mere opinions on this matter. Why the rush to jump to conclusions?

[DS1]

72. at an internet level the argument is valid

saying something that a given group of people care about intensely on their home turf vs saying it as far away as possible is a different situation. chances are a lot of the local cuban papers in s Fl will miss this. I believe this message has been strategically altered to cater to South Florida, strategically released very early in the race and very far away from the hotzone. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I originally stated I hate candidates changing their mind for the benefit of more votes. It doesn't matter who does it, and I'm not searching for reasons to hate Dean. Why the rush to jump to conclusions?

[FubarFly]

73. I'll tell you what. ..

I'll concede the possibility that your theory may be true, if you admit that mine might be as well.

Sound fair?

[DS1]

76. absolutely.

opinions stated and on record, both happy.

[FubarFly]

77. I'm glad we could agree on something. n/t

[Umbram]

67. Yea..how could he possibly...

Have been connecting with people from S. Florida while in Washington.

It is many days by Wagon.

[Judi Lynn]

78. Good question, Mika

Just saw this at the website of Radio Progreso, in Miami today, and it's completely relative to some of the comments on this thread.

It concerns the four demands made in a letter to _{pResident Bush} from 13 Republican Miamians, 10 being Cuban-Americans. Very interesting:

(snip) The four demands referred to in the letter were:

(1) Modify the present “wet foot, dry foot” immigration policy in which illegal immigrants intercepted at sea are returned to Cuba, while those that reach U.S. territory are given the opportunity to stay. This policy, established during the Clinton administration, served to reduce the number of Cubans that attempt to reach the U.S. illegally. Its elimination could generate a new wave of migrants a la Mariel. Since the Bush administration stated that a mass exodus permitted by the Cuban government would be considered as hostile act and would respond accordingly, we can expect relations to dangerously deteriorate between the two countries.

(2) Stop the Cuban government from blocking broadcasts into Cuba by “T.V. Martí” the Florida-based television station created by the U.S. government to provide alternative information and anti-Castro propaganda to Cubans. By using powerful transmitters located at a site know as Bejucal, Cuba has successfully blocked most of its programming. Various analysts consider that the violation of Cuban airwaves by T.V. Martí constitutes a U.S. violation of international communication and neutrality agreements, and that Cuba has the right to block them. However, this demand is especially worrisome as it follows the suggestion for military action made last month by the conservative Center for Security Policy that “Bejucal is now a terrorist asset. It gives Castro enormous abilities to conduct information warfare against U.S. assets and space, and presents a major threat to U.S. space dominance… President Bush should order the destruction of the Bejucal facility – now – before the threat worsens.”

(3) Formally accuse Fidel Castro for the deaths that occurred in 1996 when Cuban military jets downed two civilian airplanes belonging to the organization Brothers to the Rescue. Cuba has provided evidence that these airplanes regularly violated Cuban airspace and even flew over Havana distributing anti-Castro propaganda during a time period when U.S.-based Cuban American terrorist organizations were planting bombs in Cuban hotels. The September 11 civilian aircraft terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers showed that the Cuban government had valid reasons to be worried about these flights. However, justified or not, a legal demand against Castro will eliminate any possibility of “constructive engagement” between both countries.

(4) Increase U.S. economic and technical assistance to political groups that oppose the present Cuban government. This, of course, is illegal. The U.S. does not allow foreign governments to finance political groups within its borders, and neither does Cuba, nor most other countries in the world. The recent jailing of over 70 dissidents in Cuba was a reaction to the increased financial and technical assistance they received from the U.S. This action will also preclude any type of future negotiations. These four demands have as common objective the escalation of political confrontation between the two countries and the generation of social strife within Cuba. This could spark U.S. military actions against Cuba precisely during the 2004 election period when the incumbent President might be in need of more popular support.

From: IN THE UNITED STATES
War chants against Cuba increase as presidential election nears

By Eduardo Santana C.
http://www.rprogreso.com/

[jiacinto]

95. He wants to carry Florida

And I don't blame him here. I know the pro-Castro apologists on this board won't be happy, but they were all probably Greens anyway who would never have voted Democratic unless the candidate was Karl Marx himself, proclaiming the revolution, while waving the flag with the hammer and sickle on it.

[Judi Lynn]

98. Interesting imagery

You say "sickle?"



and "hammer?"



You've got a lot of catching up to do on your reading. A LOT of Republicans support ending the embargo, from a long time ago.

In 1998, a bipartisan group was formed to study reforming the U.S. position on Cuba, with lots of important Republicans involved. Initiated by Senator John Warner.

(snip) NATIONAL BIPARTISAN COMMISSION ON CUBA ACT 2000

On June 20, 2000, John W. Warner, R-VA, in a move to protect passage of a key Senate Defense bill, withdraws an amendment that he, in conjunction with Senator Christopher J. Dodd, D-CT, introduced on June 8th to establish a National Bipartisan Commission on Cuba to examine, evaluate and document the specific achievements of United States policy with respect to Cuba. Immediately thereafter Senator Dodd introduces an almost identical amendment to accomplish the same purpose. After two hours of debate, the amendment is defeated by a vote of 59 to 41.

This legislation reiterates a request made in 1998 in a letter sent by Senator Warner and 23 of his colleagues to President Clinton recommending that he authorize the formation of this Commission.

These 24 Senators were supported in their request by former Secretaries of State Lawrence Eagleburger, Henry Kissinger, and George Shultz, former Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci, former Secretaries of Agriculture John Block and Clayton Yeutter, former Senate Majority Leader Howard Baker, former Undersecretary of State William D. Rogers, and former Assistant Secretary of State Harry Shalaudeman. (snip)

http://www.uscubacommission.org/

[Mika]

102. "exiles" are only 2% of Fla voters

And I do blame him here for ignoring the other 98% of Florida voters (a majority of whom are registered Dems). I know the pro Bush apologists on this board won't be happy, but they were all probably ANP anyway who would never have voted Democratic unless the candidate was Himler himself, proclaiming the victory, while waving the flag of imperialism.

[jiacinto]

104. I am not a Bush apologist

But there are plenty of pro-Castro people here.

[Mika]

107. Who? Where?

"I am not a Bush apologist"

You just support Bush's Cuba policy, that's all.




"But there are plenty of pro-Castro people here. "

Who? Where?

I've seen no pro Castro posts here. I've seen posts that refute the uninformed myth that the evil Dr Castro rules Cuba single-handedly.

By focusing on Castro only, you denigrate the work and efforts of all the Cuban people who have built what they have. Independence, sovereignty, 1st class health care, 1st class education, 1st class union representation, democracy, respect the world over, etc.. The US did nothing but hinder the works of the Cuban people, but the Cubans persevered and succeeded in their efforts, and are continuing to upgrade, modify, and change according to the will of the Cuban people.

[jiacinto]

108. Then why don't you move there?

If you think Cuba is so wonderful, then why don't you move there?

[Mika]

112. In a heartbeat

"If you think Cuba is so wonderful, then why don't you move there? "

I would in a New York minute, if i could.

How about the right fro Americans to be able to just go to Cuba for a trip without an Otto Reich/OFAC/BFEE approved 'permit'?

Cuba doesn't have an equivalent law like the US's Cuban Adjustment Act. People can't just pick up and move to anywhere they want without visas etc. (except Cubans coming to the US). Cuba doesn't allow much immigration because their resources are stretched a little thin right now by the US sanctions. Later on.. who knows. Cuba could always use a few more dentists, I suppose. I know I would be welcome there because I have many many friends and professional associates who live in Cuba that I have become close to over my years of going to Cuba (legally) for extended ed. exchange stays. I know that the overall quality of life is better in Cuba (although you might miss the SUV/Must See TV/ uberconsumer US culture there). Less stress, organic food, wonderful people, good music, good school systems, good health care systems (universal and free to all), gun violence free environment, real representational democracy where the citizens are truly involved from the grass roots up, labor unions, a clean and virtually unspoiled tropical paradise, rent is no more than 10% of income by law, free retirement homes for the elderly, community spirit and recognition of interdependency, social spirit..

I could go on..

Wouldn't it be easier for Americans to accept the real Cuba if they could see it for themselves? Doncha wonder why the American government bans us from doing so?

[Judi Lynn]

106. It's funny, but being a MiamiMafia apologist actually

puts someone on the same side with the extreme Bill Clinton bashers!

Have you seen this mural, from Little Havana in Miami? Smooooth.


http://www.flahum.org/forum_feature/elian-dolphins.html

[samsingh]

101. this makes sense - unfortunately

do we want to lose Florida again?

[Judi Lynn]

103. Do we want to lose Florida again?

You tell me!



A few concerned would-be voters.



Are you speaking of the same group which helped intimidate the vote-recount workers? Why would we consider this?

[Vogon_Glory]

109. Pandering to the Cuban Exiles--Bad US Policy

I'm as yet undecided as to the wisdom of Howard Dean deciding to leave the Cuban embargo in place. It may help him gain some votes from those Cuban exiles who haven't irretrievably wedded themselves to the Republican Party, it may not.

I do believe that the embargo is already working against long-term US interests. Fidel Castro is now 77, and even with his family's tendency towards longevity, marxism-leninism's hold as an attractive ideology is already slipping away for everyone save a dwindling minority of hard-core marxists. I suspect that whoever succeeds Fidel is as likely as not going to open the Cuban private sector at least as much as Tito did in the old Yugoslavia.

In the meantime, I see Cuba as slowly but surely moving into the economic orbit of the European Union. It's not hard to see why; with the US embargo, European goods are far easier to obtain. Moreover, whoever Cuba trades with also sets the engineering and technical standards. As aging pre-Revolution US-built and post-Revolution Soviet-built machinery and equipment wears out and breaks down, the new stuff is inevitably going to be built to East Asian and European specs.

Cuban agricultural exports also stand to do better if the post-Castro Cuban government can shake Cuba's monoculture mentality. Fidel first set sugar as the overwhelming national priority; these days it's tourism. I suspect the standards for Cuban agricultural exports are not going to be set in Washington but in Brussels.

As for the Cuban exiles. The hard-core Castro-bashers are in for a rude surprise. After over forty years of trying to cripple and sabotage the Cuban economy, they're going to find themselves in a very bad odor as a group with the island Cubans. The wealthy exiles with connections have been losing those connections and friendship networks as they've been aging and dying off. Those Cuban exiles who wish to shape post-Castro Cuban society to a more modern framework have a lot of penance to perform--and fifty dollar checks to Habitat for Humanity just aren't going to cut it.

[sangh0]

110. Pandering to Corporations

With only 2% of the population of Fla, somehow the Cuban-Americans have come to control the entire nations policies towards Cuba. Hasn't anyone ever wondered where those Cuban-Americans, who came here on boats without a penny to their name, got so much money they could buy our national security policies?

You don't suppose it has something to do with the Sugar industry?

[Judi Lynn]

114. Conventional American Cuba news never includes break-throughs like this!

(snip) Just months ago, Marine Gen. Charles E. Wilhelm ran Pentagon operations for Latin America as chief of the Southern Command and was prohibited from contact with the Cuban military.Tuesday, citizen Wilhelm, 58, was in Havana on a fact-finding tour sponsored by the Washington, D.C., Center for Defense Information, a private, not-for-profit think-tank that specializes in security issues.``They're going down to talk to Cuban military.

This is similar to trips that we have made before, albeit without someone of Gen. Wilhelm's stature,'' said retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a Vietnam veteran and director of research at the center.Wilhelm is the second top U.S. military officer who once had responsibility for Cuba to visit the island after taking off his uniform. In 1998, retired Marine Gen. Jack Sheehan, whose turf included Cuba as commander in chief of the Atlantic Command, met with both Fidel and Raúl Castro and caused a stir by urging closer U.S.-Cuba relations.

Wilhelm, who took over Southcom after oversight of Cuba was transferred to it, has made no similar public statements. He was not available for comment Tuesday.Smith said the center, whose staff includes a retired rear admiral and other former senior U.S.
officers, advocates military-to-military contacts between the United States and Cuba. He had no specifics on the delegation's
itinerary.``We're in favor of lifting the embargo and the restrictions that have been placed on Cuba,'' Smith said. ``Cuba is not a threat to the United States or anybody else.'' (snip/...)

http://ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticles/mh021401southcom.htm

Taken right from the pages of the Miami Herald, and read long ago by legions of Miami Cubans, but this information NEVER gets broadcast in the other states.

These officers went to Cuba and spoke DIRECTLY to Cuban military officials, without passing Fidel Castro, WITHOUT begging for his permission, OF COURSE. If only some propaganda sucking bottom feeders recognized how far off base they are about US-Cuba relations, they could suddenly see this situation in a whole new light: a much more mature situation exists than they have been lead to believe.

[Osolomia]

117. Why do so many DUers have so much difficulty getting the facts straight?

Why do so many DUers have so much difficulty getting the simple fact through their heads that for over 4 years now a BIPARTISAN MAJORITY in Congress and most State legislatures as well as a majority of Cuban-Americans and American-Americans want the trade and travel embargo lifted? Aside from DUers, Bush and his kingmaking “exiles” in Florida are about the only people on the entire planet who still support the embargo against Cuba.

What planet are these progressive* democratic* DUers living on because apparently here on Earth, with the usual exceptions, when it comes to Cuba you represent a teeny tiny minority of hypocrites and bigots to the core, and think that the rest of the world doesn’t notice!

The trade and travel bill is expected to be voted on again next month. Will DU’s progressive* democrats* get their act in gear and face facts or will they let the opportunity to pull the rug out from under the Bushistas slip through their fingers yet again? At this rate it looks like the spineless Dems will let the hypocrites and bigots dictate to everyone else for yet another 4 years.

What a SHAME!

[Judi Lynn]

118. They've still got that vintage 1950's propaganda as a world-view

It wasn't even true THEN.

It IS odd to see really conservative Republicans getting to work on this problem, isn't it?

[Osolomia]

124. Bush is counting on the ignorance of Americans, even DUers

and it's working, otherwise Dems would be tearing the lies and bullshit to shreds and pandering to the "exiles" would be political suicide by now.

[Merlin]

120. What a shame. The right just can't suck us into cheering for Fidel.

Which is exactly what this push is all about. Rove and the neocons want the left to embrace liberalization of trade and diplomacy toward Cuba at exactly the moment the public is deciding who to vote for in '04.

Why? Why do you think that might be?

I mean, have any of you pro-Cuba-liberalization ranters even thought about the political consequences of what you are recommending.

You are pushing for the Democratic candidate for President of the United States to embrace proposals that are idiotic politically!

In case you haven't noticed, the future of the entire, damn, civilized world is riding on the outcome of the '04 election. The last thing I want my candidate doing is appearing to support an octegenarian, anti-democratic, third-world, communist dictator.

Don't you get it? Or do you deliberately not get it? Or are you ideologically incapable of grasping political reality?

[Osolomia]

122. What part of "BIPARTISAN MAJORITY" don't you understand?

Apparently you are incapable of grasping this simple political reality that has been well documented for over 4 years now, much of it posted time and time and time again even right here on DU!

[Merlin]

131. Oh? Can guarantee that the right won't scalp Dean for supporting it?

No? I didn't think so.

What part of American politics don't you understand?

What part of focusing on the big picture and not sacrificing your candidate to minor issues don't you understand?

What part of winning is it you just don't grasp?

[Mika]

125. Its all riding on a lie?

"Don't you get it?

You don't get it. Take a look around. The rest of the world is a friend of Cuba. Do you really think that the future of the entire, damn, civilized world is riding on a candidate's position on the unjust, and unique, sanctions on Cuba? I think not.

But, as an issue it would result in a POSITIVE response for any candidate, because a majority of Americans want to normalize relations with Cuba, a majority of Cuban-Americans want a normalization with Cuba, a majority of business interests want to trade with Cuba, and a GREAT number of Americans want to go to Cuba.

Why do Dems have to pander to the stark minority of Americans, as well as Cuban Americans, contrary to the desires (and votes) of the majority. The majority do not want to follow a 40 year old failed policy. Pandering for money, with lies. The future of the entire, damn, civilized world is riding on money, ignorance, and lies. Just f-ing brilliant!

[Merlin]

133. You are stark, raving mad!

First of all, I did not say the future of the world rides on Cuba. I said it rides on defeating George Bush. I assumed that most people on this board would be clued in enough to grasp that elemental point.

As far as your assertion that a Dem Presidential candidate's support of trade normalization with Castro's Cuba would win him political points with the American electorate, let me whisper this to you:
YOU ARE INSANE!

Nobody is pandering to the minority of idiotic, fascist, cuban exiles living in Miami. Nobody is pandering for money with lies. What we're trying to do is win an election! Kapish?

You may not have been around in the recent past, so in case you don't know about it, the right wing crucified a fairly conservative Democratic president for getting a blow job just a few years ago. They will find any reason, any symbol, any speck of a scandal, any hint of "disloyalty", any nuance of enlightened thought and nail our candidate to the cross for it. Bank on it.

So our candidate had better be really, really cautious about how many battles he chooses to fight in the election, and he'd better be sure he can win them all with the rather lamebrained, gingoistic, ill-informed American electorate.

I don't give a rat's ass how much you rave about how democratized Cuba is, you're still wrong, and it's still the wrong issue for Howard Dean, and Dean is still smart to sidestep it.

[Say_What]

127. BLINKERS ON!!

a perfect example of asleep-at-the-switch-US Sheeple remark: In case you haven't noticed, the future of the entire, damn, civilized world is riding on the outcome of the '04 election.


<clips>
...Are the elections in the United States fair and honest? A review of the facts is far less than rassuring.

Since 1964, right after John F. Kennedy was assasinated, vote tabulation for national elections has been handled not by the government, but by a private company lacking any official oversight at all. This company, which changes its name on a regular basis, is currently called "Voters News Service" and is located in New York City. This company is owned by a consortium of TV networks and wire services, which are in turn controlled by the CIA through its Operation MOCKINGBIRD. The TV networks will make a great show of being "first with the election results", but in reality all of them rely on the numbers sent to them by VNS, while seldom aknowledging its existance during the election coverage.

This is the voting process most in use in America today. A voter punches a card in the voting booth. That card is run through a computer at the local voting center, then that computer contacts computers at Voters News Service, or the precinct official telephones the numbers the computer shows him to Voters News Service, which then announces the results via the networks. Poll watchers are allowed to watch the voting booths, to gaurd against polling place electioneering, but in most precincts, the actual counting of the ballots is concealed from the public, and nobody is allowed to see inside the voting machines, or review the computer software that counts the ballots. 70% of all votes in America are counted by machine, and nobody, not private citizen, not local election official, nobody, is allowed to examine how it all works. The accuracy tests conducted on the voting machines before and after the actual election are utterly worthless, as they cannot detect fraud designed to fool the accuracy test itself. In 1988, when voting machines in Illinois were tested with tens of thousands of ballots instead of the few dozen normally used for the accuracy test, over 1/4 of the machines which had passed the standard accuracy test were found to have mistabulated the larger test vote results!

While researching the book, "VOTESCAM", the Collier brothers actually managed to videotape members of the League of Women voters forging ballots, and found hard evidence that Shouptronics and Printomatic vote machines were rigged in the Dade County Elections. In the Shouptronics, the wheels of the mechanical counters were shaved to cause miscounts. In the Printomatic machines, a malfunction revealed that the paper tape with the voting results had been pre-printed before the voting even started! The Colliers, along with attorney Ellis Rubin, handed the evidence to the assistant State Attorney for Florida. Sadly, that assistant State Attorney was Janet Reno, who in a pattern we have all become too familer with, killed the investigation. 60 Minutes taped a segment on the Dade County Vote Fraud, but never aired it.

Mandatory voter registration laws, such as "Motor voter" have been a boon to election fraud, generating registered voters who don't vote and whose names may be used to obtain absentee ballots. In the California election that unseated Bob Dornan following his efforts to investigate the Clinton White House, canvassers discovered that nearly half of the names registered to vote in the GOP election from 7 precincts simply did not exist. The California Attorney General's office was informed by the precinct worker, but again nothing was done. In 1998, almost 20,000 fraudulent voter registrations were discovered on the voting rolls, but were allowed to remain on the excuse that their removal in time for the election would cost too much!

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE3/index.html

[Merlin]

132. Wrong thread.

Get your head together before posting. It would be nice if your post bore some remote relationship to the topic being discussed.

[Say_What]

135. Helllloooo!!!

LOL I responded directly to your typical head-in-the-sand quote.

BTW, Castro has the same effect on some people that the full moon has on wolves: He causes them to howl at the moon and foam at the mouth. You're posts are perfect examples.

[Judi Lynn]

121. Seems there's an echo on this board!

(snip) U.S. SENATORS ANNOUNCE CUBA WORKING GROUP

Ten Member, Bipartisan Group Will Examine U.S. Policies Toward Cuba, Calls Sanction Policy “Ineffective”



Washington, DC, March 24, 2003 – In a letter to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) and Minority Leader Tom Daschle (D-SD), on Friday, March 21, 2003, ten U.S. Senators announced the formation of the bipartisan “Senate Working Group on Cuba.” The letter said the working group would “examine U.S. policies toward Cuba, including trade and travel restrictions,” citing Americans’ right to travel and Cuba’s potential as a U.S. export market. The full text of the letter follows this release.



With the formation of the Senate Working Group on Cuba, both chambers of the U.S. Congress now have Cuba working groups committed to a new approach on U.S. policy toward Cuba. In the House of Representatives, the bipartisan, fifty-member Cuba Working Group was formed in April 2002. That group produced a “Review of U.S. Policy Toward Cuba,” and announced a nine-point legislative agenda. For more information on the House Cuba Working Group, visit http://www.cubafoundation.org/congress.html.
Current Congressional bipartisan effort to study U.S./Cuba policy, and removing the embargo.


The ten members of the Senate Working Group on Cuba are: 5 DEMOCRATS: Max Baucus (MT); Byron Dorgan (ND); Maria Cantwell (WA); Blanche Lincoln (AR); Jeff Bingaman (NM); 5 REPUBLICANS: Michael Enzi (WY); Chuck Hagel (NE); Norm Coleman (MN); Jim Talent (MO); Pat Roberts (KS). (snip/...)

http://www.cubafoundation.org/RELEASE-SenateCubaGroup-0303.24.htm

I just discovered that my senator, who's written me letters on Cuba, is one of the original members of the Working Group. I knew he'd been to Cuba, like my Representative, but didn't know he was one of the original guys.

This group is much larger now. Republicans, AND Democrats. PERIOD.

(Osolomia, why do some of them have so much trouble understanding that change is actually underway, as of YEARS ago? Sheesh!)

[Osolomia]

123. And why are so many DUers still in a state of denial

about US taxpayers financing the "dissidents" in Cuba that has also been well documented for several years now and posted on DU time and time and time again?

There's no excuse for such ignorance in this day and age.

[Merlin]

134. Why do you have trouble understanding that "underway" is not "in place"?

You are talking about some really cutting edge folks taking baby steps toward enlightened action, people who are sheltered from criticism by relative obscurity and by the lack of constituent sensitivity to this issue.

You are not talking about something supported by the general public. In case you don't remember, until just two years ago, the head of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee--the third top plum post in the Congress--regularly bloviated against Cuba to general public applause.

I suggest you walk out onto the street with a pencil and paper and ask the first 10 people you meet this question:

"Would you be in favor of improving relations with Fidel Castro's communist government in Cuba, even though he recently imprisoned a number of political opponents?"

How many "Yes" answers do you think you would get? Maybe 2.

Why do I have to put in the stuff about communist and imprisonments? Because you can bet that every mention of this by the right wing fulminating talking heads will do exactly that and more.

[Say_What]

136. Open mouth insert foot, AGAIN.

Like you, Joe Schmuck in the street doesn't know where Cuba is located never mind have an INFORMED opinion about the island. Like you, all they do is blather the propaganda they've been fed since they were in diapers. But the times they are a-changing. You've obviously not read any of the articles about business with Cuba since the arrest and conviction of the US-paid *dissidents* on the island. Commerce didn't let up one iota, in fact it INCREASED. If you knew anything about Cuba, her people, politics, culture, business, etc. etc., you would have known that. This weeks Business Week had an article that might enlighten you (but I doubt it). Something else that may be interesting is how Dean will play to the agriculture and travel folks. Not sure about the travel industry, but the ag people have MUCH deeper pockets than the terrorist organization CANF that Dean PANDERED to.


<clips>

...ECONOMIC GAINS. The Association of Travel-Related Industry Professionals (ATRIP), formed last June, is heading the lobbying efforts to lift the travel ban. The industry's argument: Easing restrictions could boost the U.S. economy in the long term by as much as $1.6 billion annually and create as many as 23,000 new jobs, according to The Brattle Group, an economic consulting firm that studied the issue for the Center for International Policy, a Washington think tank. U.S. businesses that stand to gain the most are airlines, cruise ships, tour operators, travel agents, and American-owned or operated hotels.

In Congress, U.S. Representative Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) is a leading advocate for easing the rules. "The U.S. government argues that trade, commerce, and contact will help the people in Communist China, North Korea, and Vietnam, but the U.S. government touts a different tune regarding Cuba," he contends. "It simply makes no sense. At what point will the U.S. government concede the Cuba policy is not working and change its policies?"

When Congress returns from its August recess next month, advocates for change will push to lift the travel ban. Previous efforts have failed, but supporters are hopeful a more concerted strategy could work this time. Last spring, a bipartisan group of 10 senators formed the Senate Working Group on Cuba, similar to an existing House group representing 46 members. With increased backing, including the travel industry's efforts, both House and Senate groups will support identical measures hoping to open travel for Americans in Cuba.

SOFTENING ATTITUDES. Pressure is also building elsewhere to change U.S. policy toward Cuba. In Florida, home to a large Cuban-American population, support for easing the restrictions is growing. Polls conducted last February by both the Miami Herald and the Cuba Study Group in Florida showed that about 75% of South Florida Cuban-Americans now believe that U.S. policy to oust Castro has failed and that a new approach should be pursued. Some 64% of Cuban emigrés who came to the U.S. during the 1990s said they now support easing travel restrictions, although many Cuban-American organizations remain opposed to lifting the ban. The World Policy Institute will convene a summit in Miami on Oct. 4 to discuss U.S. policy toward the country.

<http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug2003/nf20030827_7686_db039.htm>

[Judi Lynn]

139. Interesting learning that so many Cuban-Americans are favorable

to removing the embargo. It's about time they started speaking up, but it's easy to see why they haven't been more vocal before now.

Here's something a lot of people don't know about the Cuban "exile" grip on the Cuban community in Miami:

(snip) In Miami, free speech is selective

Anti-Castro passion in Little Havana has history of drowning out opposing views.

Warren Richey
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

MIAMI

The heated custody battle over Elian Gonzalez is shining a bright light on the Cuban-American community in Little Havana.

Television images beamed around the world show a community passionate about the welfare of the six-year-old boy - a tight-knit neighborhood in almost universal agreement that the child should stay with his Miami relatives to enjoy freedoms guaranteed by the US Constitution.

But those same television cameras have opened a window to a darker side of Little Havana. Critics say those who disagree with the hard-line opinions of Cuban-exile leaders routinely face intimidation, threats of violence, or outright censorship.

Two weeks ago, police arrested a seventh-grade social studies teacher after, he says, he spat on the ground and told the spokesman for the boy's Miami relatives that "Elian should go home."

The spokesman went to the police, who led Matt Heidenfeld away in handcuffs and charged him with disorderly conduct, punishable by up to 60 days in jail. "I have absolutely no problem with Cuban-Americans or anyone standing up for what they believe in, but I should also have the right to stand up for what I believe in," Mr. Heidenfeld says. (snip/...)

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/04/21/p1s3.htm

[Osolomia]

138. Obviously you know nothing of what's been happening the past few years

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD:

FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW A BIPARTISAN MAJORITY IN CONGRESS, STATE LEGISLATURES, BUSINESSES, HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS, THE US PUBLIC, ETC. ETC. ETC. HAVE VOTED TO LIFT THE TRAVEL AND TRADE EMBARGO AGAINST CUBA AND HAVE SUCCEEDED TO A LIMITED EXTENT

What part of MAJORITY don’t you understand? Apparently you do not grasp even that much and think you can win by pandering to the extremist minority in Miami-Dade who stole the last election.

How utterly ignorant and hypocritical and bigoted can progressive* underground democrats* be? Just read any Cuba thread and you ought to see!

The fact that so few even know enough to challenge any of the blatant lies and bullshit in this day and age is truly nauseating because it’s downright scary watching what Bush and the “exiles” are getting away with while Democrats are sound asleep at the wheel swallowing the propaganda hook, line and sinker every single time!

Dem excuses, excuses, excuses = DEM SHAME SHAME SHAME!

BTW, you should also get it through your head by now that what you like to call "political opponents" in Cuba are actually financed by the US governemt using your taxpayers dollars.

SHAME SHAME SHAME!

[Mika]

140. The US paid "dissidents" in Cuba

The US paid "dissidents" in Cuba are to Cubans what Al Queda paid "sleeper cells" in America are to Americans.

They are not a legitimate internal political opposition or "dissidents".

They are US and Miamicuban "exile' terrorist organization paid operatives who's openly declared goals are to overthrow the Cuban government and system.