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Best_man23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:21 AM
Original message
BREAKING (12:20 pm) Six Shot in Chicago Auto Parts Warehouse
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. A day in the life of America
Curious timing, though maybe not, considering all the gun violence in the US.

I got my "Bowling for Columbine" CD today. I finally get to watch this much talked-about movie.
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Kbowe Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. When working poor loses his job there is nothing left...when a CEO
loses his job...there is a golden parachute!
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Shit...I feel sorry for the victims
RIP
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh, Goody .... Yet Another Workplace Shooting
Another sign that the gun problem in this country is out of control............
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. I am not a gun advocate however,
I truly don't think you can blame this on the gun. I think it's American culture that is to blame. This guy was obviously petrified of being fired and lashed out.

I am sure his neighbors will say he was so quiet (don't they always?)

There is a president who responds violently so people think it's the correct thing to do when they are afraid.

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classics Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Exactly.
In America everything is a 'war'. People are so unable to care for one another the only context they can summon any good will in is war like agression.

We dont help the homeless, we declare WAR on homelessness... we dont feed the poor we declare war on poverty...

We are intentionally fed a steady diet violence, conflict and unthinking behavior by the media. Is it any suprise that people choose to solve every problem with violence now?
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Wouldn't ever blame the gun, but without one how many would be dead?
Just a thought....if he'd had any other readily available weapon then the chances are there wouldn't be so many dead.

IMHO.

P.
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DEMActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Chicagoans, help please!!!!
If you hear victims names, will you please post them here?

My brother in law owns an auto parts distribution company in Chicago (northern burbs, I think). Please let me know if you hear the name Jim Murray. I don't think it's his company, but I need to be sure.


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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Windy City Core Supply Inc., on the 3900 block of South Wallace Avenue.
That's south side.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. What law would have prevented this sad incident and protected a citizen's
inalienable right to defend self and property. :shrug:
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Surrrrrrre....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
XNASA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
6. I drove within two blocks of there last night, around 6:30PM.
I got off of the Dan Ryan at Pershing to visit a friend who lives near 35th & Halsted.

Old industrial area about 1/2 mile south of Comiskey Park, I mean US Cellular Field, I mean, "The Cell".
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Wait a minute....CHICAGO???
"Illinois has *no* provision for legal concealed or open carry by citizens."

"Illinois residents must have a Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card in order to merely possess firearms or firearm ammunition."

"Some localities ban the possession of handguns within their borders even in one's own home or business."

---->The City of Chicago requires registration of all firearms. Registration of handguns was closed by Mayor Jane Byrne in March of 1982. Since then, no new registrations are accepted, only renewal of existing registrations

-----------

Ok this is pretty much tantamount to a ban on guns in Chicago, they require registration of guns but issue no new registrations within Chicago. Bans like this do not work and only put disarmed citizens at risk of victimization by gun-toting criminals.

Brian
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. What a pantload!
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. No gun law in existence
could have stopped this crime. Am I wrong? If so, which law would? Go ahead, make one up! You do with everything else in J/PS and other gun related threads.

B
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Gee, its the RKBA crowd peddling lies
Edited on Wed Aug-27-03 12:00 PM by MrBenchley
around here.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. AMERIKA'S PROBLEMS ARE ALWAYS SOLVED BY GUNS
I agree with the poster who says that once honest people are disarmed

ONLY THUGS, CRIMINALS, THE POLICE (sometimes referred to as thugs) , THE DICTATOR and His army of soldiers, marshalls and agents. will have guns and will exert their will on us the sheep
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I am convinced 150%
that you are incapable of answering a question directed right at you.

What law (past, present, or imaginary) would have prevented this crime, huh, Benchly? Can you answer that one question without interjecting your little snide bullshit comments?

My money is on "NO"

Brian
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. And I am convinced 200%
that some questions are ridiculous and not worth answering. And this is one of them.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Then why, oh wise Ninja Master
do you insist on even typing a response to anything if you don't want to dicuss it?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I am wise in the ways of RKBA bullshit
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Mr. Benchley, when you've had to use a gun in self-defense
Then come back and talk about gun ownership. Until then, you have no idea what you are talking about. Thank you.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Peddle it elsewhere
I don't have to get the clap to know it's something to avoid..
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Load those peddled pants elsewhere!
One can almost set one's watch by the regularity with which you dodge, shuck and jive your way around giving any answers of meaningful substance.

I don't have to get the clap to know it's something to avoid.


I don't have to read Highlights to recognize pedantic, rote replies belie an inability to process abstract concepts or real data.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. And I don't have to pretend
that RKBA bullshit is anything but bullshit.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Answer this gun-nuts
Describe the law can prevent all murders, and if you cant then explain why we shouldn't just eliminate the laws that make murder a crime?
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. simple
Edited on Wed Aug-27-03 03:59 PM by Romulus
you're missing the point. Murder is an unlawful killing. There can be no legal justification for murder. Self-defense is a defense to a charge of murder, because it is legally excusable to defend your life in certain circumstances. It does society no good to de-criminalize unlawful killing.

Firearms ownership, by itself, does not cause society harm. There are benefits to firearms ownership, mainly in the form of self-defense or wildlife management, and costs in the form of firearms misuse. It does society no good to restrict the benefits of firearms ownership when that particular restriction does very little to stop firearms misuse from happening. It does society no good to criminalize potentially beneficial behavior without a resulting payoff.

Hope that helps the anti-gun-owner-nut crowd.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. If it's so simple, why don't you answer?
I didn't ask about eliminating gun laws. I asked about eliminating the laws on murder. And your explanation is illogical.

There can be no legal justification for murder.

Yes there can. All they have to do is vote to repeal the murder statutes. Then the legal justification is "It's legal"

There is no MORAL justification for murder.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I think you just clarified the answer
Have a nice day :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. whatever you say, chief
Edited on Wed Aug-27-03 04:33 PM by Romulus
:eyes:

Have a nice day :hi:
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. Still no answer to my question
I'm not surprised
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Question was answered. If you don't understand, it's a personal problem
Edited on Thu Aug-28-03 01:40 PM by jody
:shrug:
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Amazing, isn't it?
Somehow in the mind of gun nuts, laws are supposed to PREVENT crime.

Bank robbery laws keep only law-abiding citizens from not robbing banks....criminals still do...but I doubt you'll see the American Bankers Association calling for their repeal anytime soon.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Correct, you have to delude yourself to do that.
Glad I could clear that up.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. Just another day in the life of Bush's America
The values of the country are demonstrated from on high. Bush believes in preemptive strikes and obviously so did this guy.

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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
74. Bush's Fault? ROTFLMAO
Oh so now it is Bush's fault some nut shot some people. I always love to surf over here, it is unbelievable.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. Micheal Moore was right. There's something wrong with america

We aren't the only country with guns. But we are the only country that kills 11,000 people each year with guns.

Somehow we must come to grips with the fact that as a people we are a violent, uncaring bunch that would rather shoot than discuss.

I don't know what there is about us that leads to this violence, but it's time that someone looked at the problem and tried to solve it. Otherwise we're just liable to kill each other off and the UN will take over. MIght not be a bad idea. We sure can't seem to govern ourselves, maybe the UN can do a better job.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. We're not the only country with guns
but we don't regulate them properly. We have a multi-million dollar lobby that does all it can to keep Americans in the line of fire.

Even now, look at those who are trying to pretend the problem here was not enough guns on the streets of Chicago.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. THIS ISSUE IS A NO WIN SITUATION FOR BLUE COLLAR DEMOCRATS
Ask Al Gore if he liked to lose Tennessee, and Arkansas to union workers who voted for the AWOL CHIMPANZEE because they believed Gore was going to take their guns away. It almost happened here in Wisconsin.

If he had won either state---Florida wouldn't have mattered.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Gee, who WAS that lying so furiously about Al Gore?
Oh yeah, it was the gun nuts of America, funded by the gun industry.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. AND THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT AGAIN
It worked the last time, and last time I checked the Chimpanzee and his right ring Cabal have millions of dollars to do it all over.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. So?
The oil industry is going to support Chimpco too...should we just lie down and let them murder folks for oil?

The KKK is going to support Bush and the GOP...shall we fight to bring back segregation?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Forget about disarming Amerika
Its worth neither the time, trouble or loss of liberty it will bring.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Forget about RKBA lies
or the rubbish they spread.
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #20
75. You are exactly
Correct.  And making the same mistakes will ensure another
loss in 2004.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Fear
There's profit in fear. The politics of fear is on the rise.
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
73. Michael Moore is a nut case.
Just about 99% of his "Bowling for Columbine" was
complete fabrication and outright lies.  

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. So, you think he's a LIEberal??
Edited on Thu Aug-28-03 08:50 AM by TahitiNut
:eyes: (Amazing that his documentary received the Cannes and Academy awards.)
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. This is the tragic outcome when a tanking economy and a culture of fear
meet readily-available firearms. The effect expands geometrically. That's why "the NRA is opening branch offices" (e.g. there are so many workplace shootings): there's the means, the motive, and the 'permission' (the culture seems accept, even promote, a certain fearful and violent streak) to do so.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. "Bowling For Columbine - Part II" anyone?
Jeepers, such a madhouse this country is.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. If our economy wasn't tanking
This wouldn't have happened. There is a MUCH greater positive correlation between the economy and violence than there is to guns and violence. As the economy collapses, people lose their jobs, and some lose their minds from the stress. This is just one more example of the wonderful economic stimulus plan we have going right now. If we were still creating jobs, instead of hemmoraging 3 million over the last 2 yrs, this guy would likely have kept his job.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. It's the economy.
NickB79 said:

"If our economy wasn't tanking ... This wouldn't have happened."

Exactly. You can always tell the people who know that we're in the 2nd Great Depression, & that if you lose your job in this economy, you probably won't find another.



"Statistically speaking, it's easier to get admitted into Harvard Univ. than to get a job in this economy."

--CBS News, 8/1/03

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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
38. What's RKBA???
:shrug:
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Man_in_the_Moon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Right to Keep and Bear Arms -nt
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
48. I say take the advice of Chris Rock.on "Bowling for Columbine".
increase the price of bullets. Make them very expensive. I know he said it joking but, but...oh HECK. No, don't increase the price of bullets, it doesn't make sense. None of these shootings make any sense. I don't know what to say about all of this anymore. It's crazy out there! Michael Moore was right. We HAVE to find out why this country shoot and kill over 11,000 of us every year.
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
50. This guy had the gun illegally.
Edited on Wed Aug-27-03 04:49 PM by davsand
Heard a press conference on the radio, and this guy had a rap sheet a mile long. Everything from Domestic violence, illegal weapons charges, DUI, Suspended license...you name it. He was not exactly the model citizen and he'd fallen thru the legal cracks in our court system.

The gun the guy used was some expensive (and pretty unusual) Walther model that sells for about $800 according to the newsguy. This was no Saturday Night Special and it had to have been purchased illegally given the guy's status as a convicted felon.

It sounds like he was a time bomb that was just waiting to blow.

My heart goes out to all the families in this time of loss.

Laura
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. I don't think it's the availability of guns
I think it is the emotional and cultural climate of our country now. It starts with the cavalier attitude we have toward killing our enemies, even if innocent lives are lost in the process. Think of the glee that was expressed when Saddaam's sons were killed. Although they were brutal monsters, they should have faced trial and be brought to justice, and not at the barrel of a gun. If you look at the media, the prevailing message is that if someone has done you wrong, you have every right to take revenge and then brand it justice.

Think of some of the pundits like Savage and Coulter who are given free reign on our airwaves. Although I stand by their right to say anything they want, they don't have a right to have it broadcast to millions of people. They routinely advocate violence against liberals

The values we are nurturing right now are hate, fear, death and destruction. Why would it be surprising that people are snapping?

As far as emotional climate, they are out their hyping this doctrine of social darwinism and every man for himself. And we wonder why people are feeling isolated and desperate. Someone who is connected to a caring community would not respond in this way.

Although you can argue that the availability of guns makes it easier and more deadly when people act out in rage, there is something much more complex festering at the heart of incidents such as these.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
53. Chicago Tribune article at 4:49 CDT, Wednesday, 27 Aug 03
Edited on Wed Aug-27-03 05:53 PM by jody
Ex-worker’s rampage leaves 7 dead

QUOTE
A man with an arrest record for weapons and other violent offenses killed six people in a South Side warehouse from which he was fired six months ago, police said.

Armed with a semi-automatic pistol, the man engaged in a running gun battle with police. Officers charged the building and fatally shot him when he allegedly refused to drop his weapon.

AND

The suspect had been arrested 12 times in the last 14 years, including a 1989 conviction for unlawful use of weapons, for which he received a year's probation, Cline said.

He was arrested again in 1992 for a weapons offense, but the charge was dropped. Tapia also had two arrests for aggravated assault and four for domestic battery, plus traffic and other offenses, Cline said
UNQUOTE

If one of you gun-haters believe that a new law would have prevented the murders, then the burden is upon you to state the law, but it must not infringe upon an individual's inalienable right to defend self.

If the DoJ had prosecuted the criminal and federal courts had sentenced him to jail, then perhaps the murders might not have occurred.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Want to read something really scary?
http://www.kc3.com/news/chicago_confiscation.htm


Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois

Chicago Anti Gun Enforcement (CAGE) unit. This elite squad,
operated jointly by the Illinois State Police, the Chicago Police Department, and the Cook County State's Attorney's Office, supposedly exists to identify illegal gunrunners. However, information gained by the ISRA makes it clear that the CAGE unit is targeting law-abiding citizens, not criminal gunrunners.
The Chicago Police Department and the Illinois State Police have teamed up to make good on Mayor Daley's pledge that, if it were up to him, nobody would have a gun. Daley and his elite "CAGE" unit are apparently taking advantage of gun privacy loopholes to pinpoint certain individuals for inclusion in the confiscation program.

The ISRA is following up on leads in one case that has disturbing implications. An elderly first-generation Chicago resident was recently paid a visit by an Illinois State Police trooper. After asking to come inside the man's home, the trooper asked if the man owned a gun - to which he replied yes. The trooper then directed the
individual to surrender the firearm. The man complied with the officer's demand and the trooper left with the gun. And the story gets better... The gun in question was purchased legally by the man in the 1970s shortly after he became a U.S. citizen. When Chicago's infamous gun registration scheme went into effect in the early 1980s, the man registered the firearm as per the requirement. However, over the years, the fellow apparently forgot to re-register the firearm, and forgot to renew his Illinois FOID Card.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Oh my GOD!!!
Somebody didn't follow the rules for owning a gun and a cop actually took it off them?

Shit...and they call it the home of the free.......

:eyes:

Sorry, but owning a gun is a privilege and you have to abide by rules in order to retain that privilege IMHO. If you aren't responsible enough to follow the paperwork, as required by law, then you aren't responsible enough to own a gun.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. A privilige!?!?! LOL!!
Sorry, maybe it is where you come from. Here we call it the Bill of Rights.

HTH
HAND
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Oh yeah, I forgot.....
That the Bill of Rights was intended to allow all citizens of the US to own guns regardless of whether they were criminals, forgetful, violent or plain bat-shit crazy....

It may be a "right", but in order to enjoy that "right" you need to work within the confines of the law. If you don't, your "right" seems to be withdrawn.

"Privilege" may not be technically accurate but a) I think it's an accurate representation of how things work and b) I think that the US and the RKBA crowd would be better off if they treated it as a privilege that one either deserves or doesn't, based on behaviour, rather than a "right" that applies regardless.

Simply re-stating one's "right" doesn't advance the conversation very far, does it?

Guy owns gun. Guy fails to follow law for gun ownership. Cops take gun from guy for failing to follow law.

It's not a modern day tragedy really....

P.S.
Where I come from, it's not even a privilege - I'd have to join the armed forces to get my hands on a pistol.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #63
70. I think the main point was that
They are spending time and money collecting firearms from people who represent no threat to others, with no criminal records, when there are known criminals in possession of illegal weapons that represent much more of a threat to the community.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Fair enough, but...
it's still justified IMHO.

Thing is, the police ought to be able to create a list of people who registered firearms but whose license has expired and who haven't said that they've disposed of their guns. That should take about 2 seconds. It's then an easy matter to send out a cop to go around and find out why + confiscate the illegally held weapons.

OK, that wouldn't be MY priority if the police did actually know about known criminals who were illegally armed......but it would take a considerable amount of manpower and time to track down those people and arrest them whilst they were in possession of the illegal weapons.

I take your point though - the police would be better off arresting armed criminals, but then again life would be safer if they stopped prosecuting littering and focused their attention on armed crime until it all went away. There are many laws that need to be enforced.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Agreed....
It's farcical that any sort of gun-related crime (let alone his other recorded offenses) earned him a small slap on the wrist, not a lengthy jail sentence.

I agree that enforcement of the law + lax punishment that was lacking.

In the UK you get a minimum of several years jail time for gun offences, IIRC.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
55. OK, some thoughts....
The anti-gunners are saying, "Ha, more proof that guns are evil" and the RKBA crowd seem to be saying, "Ha, he had the weapons illegally, there were laws in place to stop a man like that getting a weapon, so it's not a criticism of guns, it's a criticism of unenforced laws." They may also add, "If his co-workers had been allowed to carry guns then maybe one of them would have ended this before it began", that seems to be the usual addition.

IMHO, both miss the point, the point being that some guy has taken a gun and shot dead 5 other people and then got killed by Police officers risking their own lives.

My suspicion is that the problem is something to do with America's gun culture. Yes, in the UK we have a gun problem, but our gun problem is that lots of gang members, drug dealers and other hardened criminals have obtained guns (illegally). However, we DON'T have a problem with mass workplace shootings, because a) there is no legal access to guns, b) unless you're a criminal you're unlikely to have ready access to illegal guns unless you look hard for them and c) there is no culture of firearms which presents them as an everyday, useful object or an appropriate means of self-defense.

OK, you might say that the UK has an irrational, misguided distrust of guns and with proper education we'd come to realise that they're harmless when properly handled, great fun for sport and handy for self-defense. Personally, I'd rather keep my culture where guns are NOT regarded as being "normal", "everyday" objects, the possession of which is sanctioned by the government. I feel that a healthy fear and suspicion of firearms and their placement as illegal weapons is far more likely to create a civilisation where "casual" gun deaths are few and far between.

I might also add that the presence of a huge legal gun trade in the US seems to have led to the presence of a huge illegal gun trade - the more guns in circulation, the more guns available to fall through the net and into the hands of criminals.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Good summary, but what new law would you pass to solve the problem?
Remember it cannot infringe upon an individual's inalienable right to defend self because SCOTUS has ruled that government, meaning law enforcement, is not required to protect an individual. Self defense is a personal problem, not a government problem.

Firearms are the most efficient and effective arms for defending self and handguns are the first choice.

You cite the UK as anecdotal evidence but, isn't the UK experiencing an increase in armed violence? Aren't police and citizens asking that they be allowed to keep and bear arms?

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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. To deal with one point....
Edited on Wed Aug-27-03 08:22 PM by Pert_UK
Sorry, don't have enough time to deal with it all, but....

Yes, there's a gun problem, but as stated it is mainly among the criminal fraternity and guns generally seem to be used amongst criminals, on criminals, in the fight for turf or to sort out gang squabbles. Is this ideal? No, of course not, but it doesn't mean that there is a general problem amongst the population, with guns playing a role in many crimes, although we're always had a small problem with armed robberies. However, it would be wrong of me to say that gun crime wasn't increasing in the UK, because it is increasing, and rapidly. But, and this is crucial, I'm not proposing the UK as an ideal model for the US - we both have problems, but I suspect that they have different causes and solutions.

In terms of citizens being allowed to be armed - I've heard of no demands for this.

Re: the Police wanting to carry guns routinely - a definitive "no", I'm afraid, although they do want more officers trained to use firearms in the event that they become necessary during a specific incident:

"Police Federation figures show 78% of police officers do not want to carry guns, compared to 79% in 1995.

Federation chairman Jan Berry said: They recognise that openly carrying guns would fundamentally change their relationship with the public."

The news comes after a police union raised concerns over a drop in the number of officers trained to use firearms."

Police Federation survey
22% in favour of being routinely armed
80% want more officers trained and issued with firearms
47% favour the mandatory wearing of body armour"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3019133.stm
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Thanks for the stats. The article says in closing
QUOTE
Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Simon Hughes said: "Unless we reduce the numbers of guns and knives on the streets it will be increasingly difficult to resist calls for more and more armed police.
UNQUOTE

Given that England already has draconian laws against guns, Simon Hughes' statement prompts the question I posed, namely "What new law will England pass to remove the number of guns and knives on the street?"

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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. 2 Things.....
1. Simon Hughes needs to say things that will get media attention for his 3rd placed party. This doesn't discount his words, but it's worth bearing in mind.

2. I'm not sure we need new laws. It's illegal to own a handgun in the UK, or walk around with a knife over a certain length or any knife without a reasonable explanation. It is illegal to be found in possession of an offensive weapon. Therefore we need to ensure that current laws are enforced and punishments stricter for breaking them. There is already, I believe, a mandatory lengthy jail sentence for possessing a firearm, so that would suggest that we need to do more to stop the illegal importation of firearms, their purchase on the blackmarket, and we should also target people/groups who are suspected of going around armed.

However, always remember that in the UK only criminals have guns - of course we have murders here, and there will always be murders. BUT very few people in the UK have easy access to the kind of weapon that would allow them to commit mass murder very quickly and with no difficulty. We haven't had a mass public shooting (IIRC) since guns were removed from the public's hands.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I understand re enforcing gun laws. We already have a number of
gun laws and federal laws are very comprehensive. Your second paragraph speaks more to aggressive enforcement, prosecution, and sentencing than many US anti-gun proponents.

As you must now realize, when a crime or suicide or accident occurs in which a gun is involved, the first cry by the anti-gun group is "MORE LAWS". This in spite of the fact that Democratic and Republican Presidents and Attorney Generals have been notoriously negligent in enforcing existing laws.

This thread is a good example of the federal officials failing to do their jobs. The criminal in this case was given probation for committing a federal crime which could have resulted in a long prison sentence. Under such lax enforcement, a criminals motto becomes "Do the crime, you don't do any time?"
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Agree....but.....
The thing is, do you honestly believe that gun deaths will disappear with rigid enforcement of the law?

Of course they ought to be hugely reduced, but that would still mean several million guns being legitimately held by legal gun owners. That's several million guns that can be reached for and used in anger in the event of a citizen having a sudden breakdown.

Yes, there are billions of other objects that can be used as weapons, but none of them so uniquely suited to dealing multiple deaths with little effort or risk to the perpetrator.

So....in a perfect world there'd be no need for laws. In a slightly less perfect world, laws would cover all aspects of gun use and ownership and everyone would obey them. The problem is that people don't all obey all laws all the time.

I don't know.....how about a law stating that all guns must be kept locked at a designated range or police station and are only signed out by authorised personnel (with some scope for exceptional circumstances like being 100 miles from the nearest site). That ought to prevent legitimate gun owners reaching for the easy option in the event of rage or madness, and would wipe out gun accidents in the home. Harsh? Undoubtedly, but I can't think of another way of putting a block between the gun and the person who has flipped out.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. And jesus wept.
"I don't know.....how about a law stating that all guns must be kept locked at a designated range or police station and are only signed out by authorised personnel (with some scope for exceptional circumstances like being 100 miles from the nearest site). That ought to prevent legitimate gun owners reaching for the easy option in the event of rage or madness, and would wipe out gun accidents in the home. Harsh? Undoubtedly, but I can't think of another way of putting a block between the gun and the person who has flipped out."


Note to mods; can we get a animated icon of a smiley head banging into a ciderblock wall?
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Mmmm......ciderblocks.........appley!
Jody asked for a law that could stop legally held guns being used in crimes. I gave one that might work. I didn't say I agreed with it, and I don't think it's ever going to get onto the statute books (so don't panic).

I don't actually have any real answers on the whole gun/anti-gun debate, but I enjoy having logical debates. I post logical discussion points and criticisms, but don't have an axe to grind (the government having banned axes).

I'm happy to debate with anyone on this point, but (as mentioned above) simply stating and re-stating one's right to bear arms as if that proves your point, doesn't advance the topic very far and isn't indicative of the intelligent discussion of different views.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. Your proposed law
would make guns inaccessible for self-defense, which is the entire reason for which the 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights was written.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Now THAT is a sensible objection.....
Totally agree with you.

In my defense (vaguely) I would say that my law was only supposed to stop gun crimes, and didn't really try too hard to make it fit with the RKBA.

However, here's the problem........

1. You want all citizens to have ready access to firearms for self-defence if they want it.

2. You also want (I presume) to find some way of preventing the accidents and deliberate shootings that follow from having armed citizens wandering around.

I honestly cannot see any way in which these 2 positions are compatible. You can have all the laws you like, but you can't legislate away the chance of Mr Average going literally ballistic on the day his car breaks down, he loses his job and his wife says she's leaving.......so at what point does he lose the right to own a gun?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #61
76. Understand, but that effectively prevents a citizen from defending self.
The statistics suggest to me that large, very dense populations and poverty are associated with high crime, particularly when there is a big difference in individual income/wealth.

I don't know the answer to the problem of reducing crime particularly murders in a way that does not prevent an individual from defending him/herself. Perhaps "multiple solutions" is the answer.

Accidents involving fiirearms are very low. We have mandatory hunter safety courses and they have significantly reduced hunting accidents. That suggests to me that mandatory firearm safety courses might be effective in reducing other accidents involving firearms.

If we move from crime to accidents and/or suicides when discussing firearms, we should consider all causes of death and not just firearms. When that is done, other causes can be much larger than deaths involving firearms.

After I've heard all the pro and con arguments, I always end up at the same position.

    Government cannot prevent criminals from possessing firearms,
    SCOTUS says that government is not obligated to defend me,
    law enforcement officers choose firearms for self defense, and
    self defense is my inalienable right,
    therefore I will also keep and bear arms for self defense.


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