US says CO2 is not a pollutant

[DuctapeFatwa]

The Bush administration has decreed that carbon dioxide from industrial emissions - the main cause of global warming - is not a pollutant.

The decision by the Environmental Protection Agency - announced with minimal fanfare on the eve of the Labor Day weekend - reverses the stance taken under President Clinton and allows industry to increase emissions with impunity.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=438719

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Looney or Devious?

Let's start a poll. Is the Bush Administration more looney than it is devious?

[Aidoneus]

2. this is embarassing

well, then.. if it's not a pollutant, which Bush administration figure has volunteered to breathe in a ton of it? It'll really convince the skeptics..

[Aidoneus]

6. speaking of embarassing,

revealing that I don't think well early morning, I was probably thinking of carbon monoxide here, which doesn't have much to do with this.. :spank:

[Devils Advocate NZ]

3. I sort of agree with the EPA...

CO2 is NOT a pollutant in the normal sense. In fact it is an essential part of life on Earth - we oxygen breathers expel CO2 every time we exhale, and trees and plant live on it. CO2 is not poisonous, in fact it is inert.

Where the problem with CO2 comes in is the fact that the ecosystem has a fine balance - we breathe in oxygen (as do all animals) and breathe out CO2, while plants breathe in CO2 and breathe out oxygen - but this balance has been changed significantly. We are destroying plant life, while at the same time increasing the production of CO2 exponentially through manufacturing etc.

This imbalance has resulted in a build up of CO2 that is causing the "Greenhouse Effect". So technically CO2 is not a pollutant, but deforestation and overproduction has caused an imbalance in the ecosystem that needs to be rectified, either by reducing production, increasing forrestation, or both.

Without it, our environment will change, possibly enough to result in the collapse of the ecosystem and extinction of many if not most animal species.

So the EPA is technically right about CO2, but they are ignoring the big picture in order to benefit industry.

[mrfrapp]

4. Nitpick.

"Where the problem with CO2 comes in is the fact that the ecosystem has a fine balance - we breathe in oxygen (as do all animals) and breathe out CO2, while plants breathe in CO2 and breathe out oxygen."

No, they use CO2 and produce oxygen in the process of photosynthesis.
The respiratory process of the plant is completely different and involves the "breathing in" of oxygen and the "breathing out" of CO2.

[mike_c]

8. sorry, but this argument doesn't hold water....

Anthropogenically produced CO₂ is a pollutant-- any waste product that builds to levels which poison the environment is "pollution" regardless of the source. The fact that CO₂ is a naturally occurring atmospheric gas is irrelevant-- so are SO₂ and NO. What is relevant is that humans have disrupted the the present state of the global carbon cycle, with potentially catastrophic results.

Reminds me of a political cartoon I saw once: buncha fat cats sitting around a boardroom table, and one guy says: "While the 50 year forecast is bleak, with the inevitable extinction of the human race, we see significant opportunities for near-term profit...."

[bahrbearian]

11. Are you saying that CO2 which is according to Chimpy

"Not a Pollutant". Will kill you just like a pollutant ?

[mike_c]

16. of course it will....

Were you being serious?

[bahrbearian]

22. I'm never serious

I couldn't take it anymore if I couldn't giggle.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

27. CO2 can't kill you...

The ONLY way that CO2 can kill you is if it builds up to an extent that there is no oxygen in the air you breate. However, it is not the presence of CO2 that kills you, but the lack of oxygen.

CO2 is NOT poisonous, it is inert.

[InkAddict]

10. Yup, used by all those trees

we need to cut down to prevent forest fires.

:spank: - Bangin' my head against THE WALL against the inevitable consequences of this whistle-ass's decisions!

[NNN0LHI]

5. Duplicate post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=89590&mesg_id=89590

[tabasco]

7. This oughta go over well in Europe

How many died in the latest heat wave?

[meow2u3]

9. If CO2 is not a pollutant

....then McDonalds is not fattening, sweets don't boost diabetics' blood sugar, and carbon monoxide doesn't kill you. :shrug:

[kutastha]

12. Of course

If you eat McDonald's salads with no dressing, the diabetic takes insulin and you're in an open area where there's some CO, they're all harmless.

Which seems to be the logic of this administration on this study, and many others now that I think of it.

Who's doing their research? Chimps?

[joshdawg]

13. What research??

One has to know how to think before one can do research. This admin does not know how to think.

[Fovea]

25. This funny Russian dude named

Lysenko is in charge of research ...

http://skepdic.com/lysenko.html

[HereSince1628]

14. Watch for claims Bush reduced kilotons of pollution during '04 campaign

Taking CO2 out of the spreadsheets will certainly change the bottom line.

[duid12]

15. perfect sense

I don't know, it makes perfect sense to me...they have already decided they can solve the huge underfunded pension problem, not by making companies contribute more money, but by instead changing the way the calculations are done...so if you want to solve the pollution problem, just say that 1/2 the bad stuff isn't pollution..presto problem solved....now if they could just suspend the laws of gravity...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

17. Headline should read...

"Bush says CO2 IS NOT a Pollutant"!

[bvar22]

18. Pure, clean, crystal clear water is not a pollutant either,

but it'll sure kill you if it fills up your lungs.

[Trillo]

19. Global Warming?

Veizer and Shaviv--Warming of Planet Caused by Sun?

"We find that at least 66% of the variance in the paleotemperature trend could be attributed to CRF variations likely due to solar system passages through the spiral arms of the galaxy"
(quote from abstract of article titled: Celestial driver of Phanerozoic climate)
http://www.gsajournals.org/gsaonline/?request=get-toc&issn=1052-5173&volume=013&issue=07

An easier to read version of the above link:
http://techcentralstation.com/1051/envirowrapper.jsp?PID=1051-450&CID=1051-072303C


Here are a few other interesting reads (well, interesting to me) on increased C02, plant growth, desertification, and global warming.

Increased growth of High Altitude conifers since 1850:
http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/noframe/r108.htm

Red brome (exotic grass) loves increased C02 levels:
http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/aln49/smith.html

[Emillereid]

20. Even if this article is correct that still leaves 34% of variance

due to human activity -- which is the part we can do something about. Did anyone see Bill Moyer's interview with David Suzuki -- he made a very poignant point about the harm wrought by pollution when he reminded people of how miners use to use canaries to detect poisonous gases in the mine shaft since they were so sensitive to their effect -- the miners knew to high tail it out of the mine when the canary keeled over. Suzuki pointed out that the canaries are dying all over the planet -- but that we don't realize it as the early warning sign that it is. Most troubling he said is the fact that the newest canaries are our own children -- 1 in 5 now suffer asthma and the hospital emergency rooms are filled with asthmatic children during high pollution alerts. How much CO2 and other crap we pour into our atmosphere might be changing climate may be a matter of debate -- but the present increases in respiratory and other diseases including cancer should give us pause -- I mean we breathe this stuff in -- it is incorporated into us -- it is us.

[evworldeditor]

21. High CO2 Levels

I am reminded of a couple scenes from recent movies, "Contact" and "Apollo 13". In "Contact", the character played by John Hurt, finds he's dying of cancer so he uses his millions in personal wealth and books a ride on the Mir space station because of its high O2 content... not its CO2 content. He says in the movie that the oxygen-rich atmosphere is slowing the spread of his cancer.

In Apollo 13, the crew has to juryrig a CO2 scrubber from spare parts in the Lunar lander to reduce the dangerous levels of CO2 that where building up because there were three people in the LEM instead of the originally-planned 2.

Is there a lesson here?

While it is true that natural volcanism and cow farts contribute large amounts of "greenhouse gases", those all tend to be part of a natural cycle, which undoubtedly includes periodic variation due to cosmic forces including the Sun.

As you point out, it's the 34% that is of concern here, folks. It is our unrestrained release of a billion year's worth of sequestered CO2 in just a couple centuries time that is the problem. IMHO.

[Keithpotkin]

23. aaaaahahhaha

just one more zing i can get in at any literate freeper.

its all going to hell.
:smoke: :nuke: :smoke:

[gratuitous]

24. Well, tell those goddam glaciers to stop melting!

Unpatriotic, unamerican chunks of ice! Why oh why do they hate America so much that they're bent on embarrassing the Bush administration?

Oh well, they'll be gone soon.

[Fovea]

26. And by this extension

Water is not a pollutant when you drain it out of a powerplant at 130 degrees into the river, after all, it is water.

I cannot help but think that most of the world agrees with me that this is a criminal policy.

[opihimoimoi]

28. Only a deluded populace could allow this to continue.

Oh well, Sanity and Reason is the the PUB POW Camp and no one is scheduled to rescue them

[rman]

29. no. well, but it's a greenhouse gas.

.