Police stun 75-year-old

[TeeYiYi]

Police stun 75-year-old
Rock Hill chief says Taser was used after woman attacked officer

By Matt Garfield The Herald

The Rock Hill Police Department is investigating why an officer used an electric stun gun on a 75-year-old woman who refused to leave a nursing home where she had gone to visit an ailing friend.

The woman, Margaret Kimbrell, said she suffered bruises on her leg and face after she was knocked to the floor by the force of the weapon, called a Taser.

Police Chief John Gregory said Tuesday the department is reviewing whether Officer Hattie Macon's use of the Taser was appropriate -- a step that is taken in unusual or high-profile cases.

"On face value, it looks like it was," he said. "We have a person who was asked to leave, who refused and who attempted to assault the officer."

More: http://shrinkmylink.com/ehzison

TYY

[jdj]

1. 'cause it's quick and easy and no blood gets spilled

this is a response to fear of AIDS transmission in general, i bet, (not from a 75 year old, even though AIDs among senior citizens is on the rise.)

[alittlelark]

2. Uh, is this so messed up I don't know what to say?

Yes.

[struggle4progress]

67. If they hadn't done it, the nation might have suffered an epidemic ...

... of elders visiting their friends.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. Good god what a story!

Unless it was an 80 year old cop, someone ought to shove the taser up his ass and...

The sad part is...

There's going to be someone defending this jerks actions.

[daleo]

9. The officer was a woman

Which puts a slightly different spin on matters, but not much.

"Macon, who joined the department almost 18 months ago, remains on duty, said Gregory. The department has received no previous complaints about her performance."

But tasering is out of control, as far as I can tell, and this is an excellent example of it.

[burrowowl]

4. Did they ask her friend

if he wanted to see her?
Taser an oldster because of some relative ...... unbelievable!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

5. Yep...got to watch out for those 75-yr-old ladies with a mean streak!

[NC_Nate]

6. The Taser

is actually very safe to use...I am wearing one as I type this...
It is actually less harmful then mace and pepper foam...

Though she was 75.. officer safety is the number one concern...but I think they should have used other means of controlling the situation...a good officer could have talked her into leaving..though she might have been on PCP or something.. :)

[saigon68]

7. Enjoy your stay

It will be short. And WHY ? Are you wearing a Taser at this time of night? Most 75 year old women are already in bed.

[progressivebydesign]

11. HEY!!! Just because someone disagrees with you.. you accuse them??

That is such bullshit around here! Hey! I've been here since almost the beginning of DU, racking up over 6,000 posts, and I don't happen to agree with everyone on this, either!!! Big fucking tent, indeed!! EVERYONE is a FREEPER.. ooooh scary, scary new posters!! Give me a break. His post was TOTALL valid. You all think that elderly people don't flip out and become violent?? Ask Marvin Gaye's father about that...

[saigon68]

15. What is TOTALL valid ?

And "officer safety what the hell is that.

That's how they kicked the shit out of Rodney King

The late "Sergeant" Stacy Kuhn shot him with a Taser and then the rest of the thugs beat him down. When ever King went down old Stacy dialed up the volumne causng Rodney to "Levitate". Then the other Police Hoodlums beat him to the ground again, this happened at least 4 times.


Anyone wearing a Taser--- and typing at a key board on this forum has a serious problem.

[jdj]

46. don't police have computers in their cars now?

[Steelangel]

13. uhhh, WHAT?

officer safety? huh? as you said, that old woman was 75 years old for damn sake. how CAN 75 years old woman threat officer?

I hope that old woman will sue that officer for excessive physical or misuse.

[Eloriel]

50. Man, I sure as hell I am strong enough to be physically threatening

to a police officer when I'm 75.

[natrat]

40. this is debatable

specifically heart attackds are a concern= i watched 60 minutes

[MrPrax]

42. "though she might have been on PCP or something"?

Who?
The police officer?

[LiberalFighter]

48. Chance of her being on PCP?? MINUS 50%

[tabasco]

58. Officer safety is not the main concern.

Public safety is the main concern. In fact, the officer swore an oath to defend the public. This was a gross error by the officer, and should not be excused.

[OutsourceBush]

8. She was probably a Terrorist

can't be too safe!

[progressivebydesign]

10. She did try to "assault the officer"...

The officer doesn't know if that person will go off on them... they can't judge someone's mental state to know if they'd go for the gun. My father in law is in his 70's and can pretty much kick anyone's ass.. he lifts weights a bit and works on his ranch. I think people automatically assume people over 65 are lame and weak. The woman may have appeared to be a threat.. do you really think an officer (I think it was a female) would gladly taser an elderly woman in front of a home full of elderly people?

Let's try to put away the anti-police attitude some of you have, for once, and see this objectively. You weren't there.. you don't know the circumstances entirely.

[OutsourceBush]

12. If you can't handle a 75 yr old woman without a taser

you should not be a policeman, you should be maybe try something a little less demanding such as laying in bed all day and watching Opra.

[Steelangel]

14. I completely agree with you

[saigon68]

16. a little less demanding such as laying in bed all day

There are a lot of Hoodlums in police departments.

Sgt Charles Graner--late of Abu Ghraib fame, who was in Law Enforcement in civilian life, before being called to active duty was quoted as saying.

The Christian in me doesn't care for this job--- the cop in me loves to see them piss in their pants"

[NC_Nate]

17. WOW..

So friendly in here.. I'm wearing a taser because I'm working security right now...go to school during the day...Sorry you disagree with my post..But I deal with erratic people almost on a daily basis..it's part of the job...though I've never used my Taser..I think rather then taking the lady down with a arm bar or just a tackle, the taser was the best option.. for her safety and the officer...but hey I wasn't there..

off topic.. but I see your ribbon in your aviator.. thanks for serving (I just got back from Iraq and trying to show others the mistake we made by going to war, sorry that I'm new, and my above post wasn't what you like to hear...I'll just keep my mouth shut and be a lurker :toast:

[NC_Nate]

20. Charles Graner

was a State Correctional Officer...(prison guard)

[saigon68]

24. You are right -- he was a CO in civilian life

But--- he was a Military Policeman in the MP reserve unit he was filling a slot in.

I guess some one (officer type) thought his CO experience eminently qualified him to be in charge of the " night shift" at Abu Ghraib

[saigon68]

23. No need to shut up

The debate is only beginning.

In Wisconsin no one can have these things--- its been that way for 22 years

http://folio.legis.state.wi.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=51788158&advquery=electric%20weapon&infobase=stats.nfo&j1=&jump=&record={18699}&softpage=Browse_Frame_Pg

941.295 Possession of electric weapon.
941.295(1)

(1) Whoever sells, transports, manufactures, possesses or goes armed with any electric weapon is guilty of a Class H felony.

(3) During the first 30 days after May 7, 1982, the electric weapons may be surrendered to any peace officer. Peace officers shall forward electric weapons to the crime laboratories if the retention of those weapons is not necessary for criminal prosecution purposes.

(4) In this section, "electric weapon" means any device which is designed, redesigned, used or intended to be used, offensively or defensively, to immobilize or incapacitate persons by the use of electric current.


No one but a few selected "Sworn Police Officers" can carry on duty such a lethal and dangerous weapon.

[NC_Nate]

28. "lethal and dangerous weapon"

I'm not here to cause problems...Like I said in the first post, Its hard to say if the officer' action were not justified without being there. But tasers are not lethal or dangerous. When I went to the training class I believe only 3 or 4 people have died as a result of being engaged with the taser..and all of them were on some kind of methamphetamine. In the above post you mentioned Rodney King. The shock devices they used on him were not the tasers the police depts. of today are using. I believe that they used shock sticks on him. The taser we carry today are very safe and effective. The worse thing about using them is the fall after the subject has been "shot". Unlike you typical stun gun that uses pain to bring the subject down, tasers actually over-ride the brain circuits to control the subject. Although it does hurt (for a few seconds) there is no lasting affect.
you learn more about them at www.taser.com

Ewolski v. City of Brunswick, 287 F.3d 492 (6th Cir. 2003)
The court affirmed the decision in Russo v. Concinnati, cited above, and held that the defendant police officer’s use of Taser non-lethal force to subdue a potentially homicidal individual did not transgress clearly established law. The court further held that the use of Taser non-lethal force against an armed and volatile suspect does not constitute excessive force and concluded that the defendant police officers are entitled to qualified immunity on the Plaintiff’s excessive use of force claim.

The court further held that in cases in which officers must choose among alternative use of force options, a plaintiff must show that the police "knowingly and unreasonably" opted for a course of conduct that entailed a substantially greater total risk than the available alternatives. Accordingly, the use of force option with the lowest risk of injury is the best alternative with the least likelihood of liability. Statistics from law enforcement agencies that have deployed TASER conducted energy weapons have established the TASER conducted energy weapon as having the lowest risk of injury of any alternative less-lethal weapon.

This case is also very significant in that the court noted that a state official's decision to initiate a rescue with sub-optimal equipment “sounds in negligence”. The implication of this dicta is that municipalities must provide their police officers with optimal equipment to avoid a charge of negligence and potential liability. The TASER is being recognized by law enforcement agencies as the optimal equipment for many rescue situations due to its high rate of effectiveness and safety record, and the failure of a municipality to provide TASER conducted energy weapons may well be negligent.

Bennett v. Cambra, 1997 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 1584 (N.D. Cal 1997)
The court held that it is not unreasonable for the jail officials to conclude that the use of a stun gun is less dangerous for all involved than a hand to hand confrontati

[saigon68]

30. The 6th Circuit case is not on point

"The court further held that the use of Taser non-lethal force against an armed and volatile suspect " Ibid above

****

The 75 year old woman was not " an armed and volatile suspect "

And our Wisconsin Democratic Legislature in 1982 chose to ban these weapons from all except in the most regulated circumstances.

Plus Wisconsin is in the Seventh (7th) Circuit. although Richard Posner and Frank Easterbrook would probably cream in their respective pants to write an opinion extending police powers along these same lines.

And Bennett v. Cambra the Federal District Court in California discusses force used on "Jail Inmates"

The 75 year old woman was not a jail inmate.

Do you really want to go in this direction in the Debate?

[NC_Nate]

33. Do you really want to go in this direction in the Debate?

No not really..:)

I'm not trying to defend the police officer here.. My point is that the use of a taser is safe, and just because she was 75 doesn't make a difference..

if this is the case:
....a staff member called police to have her removed for trespassing.
Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer...

that right there (according to police SOP)gives the police officer the right under sound judgment to escalate the use of force.

For example:

If a subject is using his hand as a weapon, the officer can use non-lethal force ie. pepper foam, asp baton, taser.

If a subject is using a knife as a weapon, the officer can use his firearm.

They are trained to go one step above the threat. Not just for the safety of the officer, but for the public safety as well.

Again, I'm not saying this is the case, but I'd like to think the police officer used her best judgment.

:toast:

[saigon68]

35. I wasn't there-- so I admit I really don't know

But then again none of us were there.

Although it is very hard for this woman to bring a 1983 action -- so unless the facts as I see them change--nothing will happen.

:-(

[doreme]

62. If not being there

is the criteria for making a judgement then I guess we all (or most) need to shut up about Abu Ghraib, the Florida election, Bush's Guard service etc.. I don't have to be there to know you don't do this to a seventy-some year old. I have enough common sense to know that there is another way to handle this. I can also outrun any 92 year old person on this planet.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

63. You keep saying...

... that the taser is "safe". Surely you've been properly trained and are aware that they have cause heart attacks many, many times?

And one would have to reasonably assume that a person over a certain age, certainly over 70, would be at greater risk.

The fact is, we'll probably never really know what happened here. If the 75 yo lady actually struck the officer with force (i.e. not just a slap) then perhaps the taser was justified.

Otherwise, there is no way that is was, but the police get away with this sort of bullshit every damn day.

[Evergreen Emerald]

60. Don't keep your mouth shut

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I would have to know the facts of what happened. The officers are generally trained to use it only if necessary. I have noticed an anti-police slant here sometimes.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And, since Ashcroft became head prosecutor--I understand why skepticism is necessary.

Having said that, I am a prosecutor who is dating a cop and therefore on the inside looking out, so I have a different perspective. I am also a card-carrying liberal and proud of it.

Welcome home. Keep talking

[saigon68]

19. You are right the "Policemen" at Abu Ghraib

Should not be judged on the "the anti-police attitude some of you have" (your words) ---that I (saigon) have.

I'm sure as Sgt Chuck Graner and SSgt Chip Cunningham were forced to "fear for officers safety" and that this maintainer of public order could not have defused the situation in any other way.

[BiggJawn]

41. Did somebody call me?

"the anti-police attitude some of you have"...
That would be ME.

Officer Friendly is DEAD. All I see anymore are Cops dressed and geared like they're on their way to a hostage situation or riot. Black or navy-blue "Tactical Gear", shaved heads or mohawk buzz-cuts, mirrored sunglasses, steel-toed jump boots, black "Sap" gloves, no less than 4 spare magazines for their firearm, spray, club, and now, in my area also, those fucking stock-prod "Tasers".

Yeah, there's some good people who want to serve the community, but I bet they're in the minority, compared to the misfits who got "picked on" in grade school and now can "get even". I don't care that they "screen applicants", I say these traits are what they look for. They WANT people who can be mean and disconnect from humanity. Why bother to develop a "Robo-cop" when there's plenty of flesh-and-blood thugs willing to put on armour and crack some skulls?

Wake up. Everyone who doesn't wear a badge is seen as a "Perp" by these thugs. People talk about how the Army won't obey the Chimp when he puts Martial Law in. I say "Never mind the Army, it's the PIGS who are gonna shoot us in the streets."

[saigon68]

44. That would be me who called you

The local cops with their Parris Island haircuts are out to kick some "black ass" in my town. They strut around like they just conquered Hue and greased a whole lot of Gooks.

[BiggJawn]

45. We must have the same cops.

Only the cops in MY town took "Sensitivity Training", so they don't much care WHAT colour ass they get to kick, just as long as it's ass.

There's a cop I know who seems to be a pretty good Joe. Pleasant, friendly, etc. but then, we provide a service for him that he can't get anywhere else. I imagine if he pulled me over on the street, his demeanor would match his appearance more closely. When he's in our shop, his actions are all happy and fun, even though his looks say "Perp Killer".

[tblue37]

26. A few months ago there was a story about

a woman in her seventies and her blind mother, in her nineties. The two were tasered by a police officer for some sort of failure to obey imemdiately whatever order they were given. Once again, the excuse was that the officer invovled thought he was endangered by these women. I am not sure, but I think it was in Oregon, too.

I think that our current police state mentality makes almost all cops think that tasering is an appropriate response to anyone who doesn't imediately do what a police officer says to do.

[LiberalFighter]

54. They must think that since it is not a gun that they have more leeway

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Same thing happened in KC

a year ago. The woman was 68 and the cop tasered her for not cooperating with him.

[Eloriel]

51. It's not anti-police, it's anti-abuse of power

anti-police STATE. Anti-poor judgment. Anti-poor use of resources. Anti-stupidity. Anti-jack-booted-thugs. Anti-excessive force.

Shall I go on?

[Carolab]

18. Nothing more than creeping NAZIISM

can't you all SEE that? All that's missing is the goose step.

Nazis used to stomp, starve, shoot and beat old people without mercy. If we allow this kind of action, it's one step away from the Gestapo. What, exactly, was a 75-year-old lady going to do to hurt a police officer? She could have grabbed her wrist to stop this. My god. Any of you who think this is appropriate need some serious help. PROTEST!

[UAE]

21. Wow

[saigon68]

22. I have been at numerous protests

I would fear going to any more of them--- As the gloves come off in the modern era Jack Booted Thugs kick the shit out of anyone who stands in their way.

I have seen these Parris Island Wannabees in the early 70's beat the crap out of anyone not running away from them. In the new age and this almost divine admiration for law enforcement, these thugs can and do get away with almost anything---


Look at Miami a few months ago--- I rest my case.

[tblue37]

27. Now they don't care if you are running away.

they will fire rubber bullets at your back and chase you down anyway to beat you and handcuff you.

[saigon68]

29. It gives these "Guardians of Safety"

A real sexual and primal thrill to kick the shit out of someone they have been conditioned to hate.

Liberals, hippies, uppity blacks, brown people swimming the border,trial lawyers, welfare mothers, Muslims, fags, dykes and Rag-heads </sarcasm>

just look at the Chimp's commercials. a whole litany of hate.

[Bluebear]

25. Officer England, I presume? nt

[bling bling]

31. My brother and his wife are police officers

I swear that both of them are voting for Kerry and they do not hesitate to tell it to anyone.

Also, my mom has worked in a nursing home for 30 years and has been attacked by a couple of patients over the years. One 92 year old guy attacked her and backed her into a corner and beat her over not liking his food that she set down on his tray for dinner.

I am not defending the officer in the story. I can't because I wasn't there. But I don't like to see people jump to the conclusion about "nazi police state" over a story like this because not all police officers are pro-bush and not all elderly people are harmless when they get angry.

Sometimes I talk to my brother while he's at work. Last week we were on the phone when I heard the dispatcher in the background say "shots fired......" and my brother said "I have to go."

There's bad ones for sure. But their the ones that tend to make the news, unfortunately.

[saigon68]

32. My Broad Brush extends to what I have seen

As a Veteran of numerous antiwar protests in the early 70's --I can tell you the police then justly deserved and earned the moniker "PIG"

I do not know your family but if they have the same outlook you have they are good people. The problem IMHO is that there a number of very bad police serving today.

[NC_Nate]

34. "a number..

of very bad police serving today."

I agree.. and that is sad..:(

[w4rma]

59. Broad brushes often paint over folks who don't deserve to be painted.

Please find a way to explain your POV without using a broad brush, Saigon68.

[Carolab]

37. Not a good analogy

"One 92 year old guy attacked her and backed her into a corner and beat her over not liking his food that she set down on his tray for dinner."

And was she trained in defensive maneuvers, like "peace" officers are? Were there others there who could have settled the guy down? This officer was armed and not alone. Not quite the same type of scenario.

[JSJ]

38. cheee-erist, our cops are just like 'the troops'...

...stupid beyond belief, and more dangerous than any threat they pretend they're going after. In fact, a huge number of troops come back stateside where a cop job is waiting just for them.

[Malva Zebrina]

39. I am so sick of Rambo

sick of it.

I have worked in many facilities for the elderly. Yes, some do get out of control due to their deteriorating mental processes. In each and every case, they were able to be calmed down by staff--who did NOT need taser guns, pepper spray or anything else but their own learned skills and common sense.

Something is becoming out of control in this country re rambo approaches to 75 year old persons who resist being asked to leave a facility, and something is wrong with staff who cannot handle the disruptive lady, but instead call the police who proceed to shoot at her with a weapon like a taser.

I have also worked in more than one facility for the mentally ill, and one for the mentally challenged. NEVER did any staff resort to weapons to bring under control any disruptive situation.

I suggest that nursing homes hire armed policemen to solve all those annoying problems out of control persons present, instead of relying on staff to use intervention skills.

[Ripley]

43. For all those nutjobs saying she was a threat...she had 6 broken

ribs and arthritis. How in the hell can a 75 year old with 6 broken ribs possibly assault a woman officer (in peak physical condition I assume) half her age.

This story stinks because the old woman was told she was trespassing just for visiting the nursing home. She did not break in. She was not doing anything violent. Why would they ask her to leave on the wishes of the resident's "relative" saying she should not see him? Messed up.

[crossroads]

56. You can hardly *move* or breathe with 6 broken ribs!

I broke 3 and was worthless for weeks! Every breath was agony and I was only 38 at the time.
:eyes:

[meow mix]

47. a 75 year old woman with broken bones.. knocked down by taser..

i guess being a taserpologist requires having no shame or empathy whatsoever.

if thats the case thier sickening posts make more sense.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

49. Nursing homes have to deal with irate patients all the time

Don't tell me they use tasers.

[daleo]

52. Tasering old women, 10 year old girls, what's next - babies?

"The officer was in peril of ear damage by the non-cooperative bawling infant, so he/she was forced to use their taser. No permanent harm came to the six week old."

On edit - the police have become kind of taser happy in my town, and there have been deaths. No babies though, just mentally disabled men.

[TeeYiYi]

53. Pregnant woman tasered in the stomach:

Unit 5: Police Accused Of Firing Taser At Pregnant Bride
Fetus' Vital Signs 'Weak' After Incident, According To Lawyers

EVERGREEN PARK, Ill. -- A man and his daughter have filed a lawsuit alleging a couple of Evergreen Park police officers assaulted them with a Taser gun at the woman's backyard wedding reception.
<snip>

Madison ran into the home, and one of the officers followed. That officer then allegedly shot Madison with the Taser gun twice in the abdomen, despite being told by witnesses that she was pregnant.

A prong from the stun gun reportedly became lodged in Madison's stomach and had to be removed by paramedics, Ferguson said.

A third officer allegedly held a gun to Madison's head as she was being arrested.

After being released from custody, Madison sought medical care and doctors told her the unborn child's vital signs were weak and that tests would show whether she would lose the baby, according to a news release from the law firm of Richardson, Stasko, Boyd & Mack.

"It is unclear, the condition of the baby, but we hope for the best," said Elliott Richardson, the woman's attorney.

More: http://www.nbc4.tv/news/3768716/detail.html

TYY

[Bo]

57. What Drugs is this F*%#$ Idiot on?

Cops are becoming Nazis.

[Lost Creek]

61. This is the type of subject that gets me thrown out of DU

I say anyone who justifies this pigs actions sucks.

In my youth I traveled the roads by thumb. Many run-ins with bad cops.
As a young adult I worked in the mental health wing of a major city jail - some real sick fucks there also. Abu Ghraib no suprise to me.

I will admit that the bad ones are a small minority - but the "not bad ones" will not step up and get rid of the sick ones.

That is why I say fuck them all and anyone who supports their sadistic ways.

[VegasWolf]

64. I guess she had to taser her before she ran out the back door,

jumped over a fence, ran thru an empty building, stole a car and
injured an innocent civilian.

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[bvar22]

65. Meet the new boss

same as the old boss

[Chimpanzee]

66. The 75 year old woman was threatening the police officer???

That's one whimpy PO.

[tibbir]

68. When 75 year old people fall down (from a taser or whatever)

they break their hip, which can cause permanent damage. I can't imagine any circumstance that the lady could have been so much of a threat to a trained police woman that a taser was necessary.

[opihimoimoi]

69. What is the name of that Brave officer??? We want to know

so we can give him a medal for his courage