Extreme radiation levels reported in Baghdad

[kstewart33]

PAPER: DANGEROUSLY HIGH LEVELS OF RADIATION MEASURED AROUND BAGHDAD
Mon Sep 01 2003 15:05:42 ET
EXPRESS

SOLDIERS and civilians in Iraq face a health timebomb after dangerously high levels of radiation were measured around Baghdad.

Levels between 1,000 and 1,900 times higher than normal were recorded at four sites around the Iraqi capital where depleted uranium (DU) munitions have been used across wide areas.

Experts estimate that Britain and the US used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of armour-piercing shells made of DU during attacks on Iraqi forces.

That figure eclipses the 375tons used in the 1991 Gulf War. Unlike that largely desert-based conflict, most of the rounds fired in March and April were in heavily residential areas.

If inhaled the material can attack the body causing cancers, chronic illness, long-term disabilities and genetic birth defects - none of which will be apparent for at least five years.

Veterans of the first Gulf War believe that DU exposure has played a role in leaving more than 5,000 of them chronically ill and almost 600 dead.

(snip)
Evidence of massive uranium radiation has emerged in recent weeks. The Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle analysed swabs from bullet holes in Iraqi tanks and confirmed elevated radiation levels.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm

[adolf bush]

1. great job!

niiice not only are we now occupying and oppressing the iraqi people... WE ARE GIVING THEM CANCER AS WELL! Nice job mr bush, way to save those poor people. (sarcasm)

[maggrwaggr]

17. giving it to our own soldiers as well

without telling them the dangers.

[Bandit]

73. WE ARE GIVING THEM CANCER AS WELL!

I am beginning to believe America is a cancer on the world. At least this current Administration is.

[sasquatch]

2. Gee...I wonder why our GI's keep getting Gulf War Syndrom

These Idiots make me sick:puke:

[mike_c]

3. more U.S. war crimes-- pollute the "enemy's" land for thousands...

...of years. Scorch the earth, then salt it. The Iraqi people have SO MUCH to thank us for....

[fizzana]

4. And watch Condi Rice & Runsfelt come out and say that these

levels of radiation are proof that Saddam had WMD's.

[thebigidea]

5. phew

[wellst0nev0ter]

6. Oh, I'm SO Glad I Don't "Ser-port Owr Troops"

By joining up in this shitstorm. BTW, another one of my high-school acquaintances had to quit college and join the Marines. Thanks, monkeyboy.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

7. Ergo, the majority of the Brass is stationed in Kuwait...

Bushco rule #122B: Depleted Uranium is a healthy thing to have around your system (if you make less than 65K a year).

[bahrbearian]

21. Must be why Bremmer is on Vacation

after 2 months on the job. He didn't want to hang around Bagdad. Sadamn Probably dosen't want the place now.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

38. I wonder if he's doing any night fishing....

ha probably won't need a lantern.

[fizzana]

8. The story about the radiation levels was initially reported a few

weeks ago. As yet, our dynamic, free, open, left-wing press hasn't even mentioned it.

[cthrumatrix]

9. I'm sure AWOL will put the EPA on it right away.....

Speaking of that...has AWOL said anyhting on why he influenced the EPA to "lie" to New Yorkers about the air quality after 9/11?

[mike_c]

13. there isn't any real reason....

Shrubya is simply allergic to the truth about anything....

[Kool Kitty]

61. In order for him to lie to the New Yorkers, that would mean

a press conference. You don't honestly think that there will be a real press conference with the (ahem) press actually asking real questions, not reading from a script, do you? Where they might ask him REAL questions about REAL important ISSUES? We won't hear any more about this until the sick people want to get some real answers or sue, and then they'll find out that some executive order that the pResident signed in the dead of night doesn't allow for lawsuits.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

63. The press is scared to death of asking and then pushing real

questions to Bush... He's petty and vindictive and they probably wouldn't be able to cover a DC dog show after Bushco got through.

Sigh.

[saigon68]

84. AWOL DOES HAVE THE FBI THERE THOUGH

I wonder what the hell for. The FBI is examining the various bombs and apparently interviewing witnesses, who are then sent to Pakistan where our ally gets these suspects to spill their guts.

[leftchick]

10. wonder how Dr. Bob is feeling these days...

Dr. Bob Arnot, MSRNC pimp for the chimp, has been telling us for months how peachy keen things are in Baghdad. I wonder how he will take this news now that his health may be in jeopardy? Still feeling peachy Dr. Bob?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. He probably sees it as a boon. He won't need lighting for night spots.

Gee, glow-in-the-dark reporters. Kewl.

[Newsjock]

11. (OK, I'm not awake yet)

Message deleted because I'm a doofus and was promptly corrected below. I go back to sleep now.

[fizzana]

14. The link to Drudge is not his front page although there is

another story on his front page about ABC spiking an interview with a black body builder who has accused Ahnold of being a racist.

[JPace]

12. So depleted uranium is safe?

Just to assure all of us doubters I want
the Pentagon to build all its desks out
of the stuff and sit next to it day after
day.

Then I'll believe it is safe!

[Nancy Waterman]

16. This is a huge story!!

Once this zips around the internet and gets to Iraq and to the military families here, all hell will break loose. The fury this could unleash over there, already a tinder box waiting for a spark, will be overwhelming.

[fizzana]

18. Except the story has been out a few weeks already and thus

far it has zipped absolutely nowhere.

[Fridays Child]

58. It's just as bad in Kabul, endangering citizens and soldiers alike...

...but our media have not taken enough interest in the story to even generate a yawn.

I agree that it's a huge issue but how do we make it grow legs?

[bpilgrim]

19. white house working on report to make radiation no longer dangerous

no worries

peace

[JPace]

24. They'll leave it out of any report......

the same way they did to the topic of
"Global Warming"

The AWOL regime is the absolute best
at hiding things that would normally
be impossible. It must be those
hightly financed think tanks.

The best hope of getting this out into
the media without being ignored is for
the organized families of troops to get
together and demand answers.

[quilp]

20. We invade their country because they have "nuclear weapons"

and end up radiating their country with ours. And we think we will get the support of the Iraqi people? Or the rest of the world? Bush makes us look like world class jerks.

[Flying_Pig]

22. Apparently, the idiots in the.....

Bush regime, haven't learned the following lesson: "Don't shit in your own nest".

As a victim of America's Cold War nuclear testing in Nevada, I have suffered a lifetime of health problems, including cancers, and many other medical problems. Still dealing with them today, and feel lucky to be alive, as many of my friends, ...are not. Was also told not to have children, as there was probably chromosome damage. Lovely.

The government has yet to take full responsibility for what they did to me, and thousands of others, civilians and veterans alike. The fucking Repuglians (along with some Dems, like Miller, presidential candidate, Edwards, and Breaux, and other DINOs)inserted some arcane exceptions in the Radiation Survivors bill, that was *supposed* to pay us for all that we have lost, and all that it has cost us (medical bills, lost wages, etc.), that excluded me, and thousands of others. Bill Clinton, Bill Richardson, Richard Bryan, and Harry Reid, tried to fix it, but John Warner, and the rest of the fucking nazis threatened to kill the whole bill, unless we were exempted, so, some got covered, .....but MOST WERE NOT.

I feel so badly that the government is still allowed to get away with killing their own people like this. It is absolutely a Republican led effort to deny, cover-up, and lie about it too, in an campaign to protect their military-industrial complex patrons. So, we'll have thousands of kids coming back from Iraq, with illnesses they can't figure out, and for which, THERE IS NO FUCKING CURE!! And, to top it off, we have poisoned hundreds of thousands of children and adults in Iraq as well. Nice, friendly, beneficent, American liberators, ...MY ASS!

If I sound angry, you are right. This is why I have spent virtually all of the last 30+ years fighting these bastards, and will, until I am dust in the wind....
:mad:

[Karenina]

36. Hey Flying_Pig,

(((((( BIG HUG ))))))

[Flying_Pig]

41. Thanks Karenina...

:hi:

[calimary]

51. I am angry for you, Flying_Pig - you were horribly sinned against!

This is awful! AWFUL!!! They should burn in hell for what they've done to you!!!!

I was, at first, having a fit over what the Military Families Speak Out website (mfso.org) would have to say about this - and their letters are ALL, already so poignant. But THIS! JEEZ!!!

I am SO sorry about this for you! You have EVERY RIGHT to be angry. Keep fighting. The rest of us are shoulder-to-shoulder with you. I, for one, am doing EVERYTHING I CAN to ensure these bastards are unemployed as of January 2005! Sooner would be better, but... can't have everything...

Blessings and comfort to you.

[Flying_Pig]

52. Thank you CAli...

I appreciate the kind words. We're going to need to support the troops too. They've been duped and lied to as much, if not more, than we have, and many are now going to have to pay for it with their lives....
:sad:

[ewagner]

106. My heart goes out to you

Flyin pig.....my anger needs to be directed to action..your story does it!

[Eloriel]

59. You have every right to be angry

And I'm angry FOR you, Flying Pig.

And I'm especially angry -- and very sad and ashamed too -- that "we the people" have had (or rather taken) so little control over our government in all these many years.

I'm really sorry for that. Maybe there's enough people-power gearing up that we can change that. I hope so.

Eloriel

[lumpy]

23. US/Brit's WMDs

nt

[Nancy Waterman]

25. I missed this story if it was out a few weeks back

It may have come out when I was on vacation. Was it on Drudge back then? I would think that would spread it.

[fizzana]

26. It wasn't on Drudge.

It was posted on DU and I might be mistaken but I think the original story was posted on the Christian Science Monitor.

[JPace]

29. Here is a link.....

I sent the story to a friend who
has a grandson over there.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FLO308B.html

[lindashaw]

31. This is the first I've heard of it, too.

[symbolman]

27. You won't believe how many people told

me to take out the part about DU affecting troops in my ARMY OF ONE animation--

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

28. Who? Why?

I've been following DU since we were using it in GWI

[fizzana]

35. Glad to make your digital acquaintance.

I e-mailed your 'Army of One' animation to a bunch of people, even my two wingnut friends. Everyone thought it was incredible.

Congrats & keep them coming.

[CheshireCat]

30. bump

for the evening crowd.

:kick:

[genius]

32. What did they expect?

Even little kids are running around with signs about the Depleted uranium.

[2cents]

33. I guess Bush...

....won't be visiting Baghdad any millenium soon.

[Chomskyite]

34. I've sent this and the Christian Science Monitor Report

. . . to everyone in my address book that I can get away with sending this to without losing my job. Relatives, friends, friends of friends, near-acquaintances. Whatever.

If it's Spam, let it be the best meaning Spam they ever get.

[Kucinich04]

37. For one second I was hopeful...

that we were going to get the unvarnished truth in this article. I expected the spin to avoid the toxic DU dust, and focus instead on the likelihood of Saddam's having secretly exploded a 'dirty bomb' in Baghdad during the chaos of the war in order to poison the coalition troops once they took over. Glad they stayed away from that utter nonsense. However, one fuck of a lot more Gulf War I veterans have chronic illnesses than 6,000. So, I guess, you take the good with the bad...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

39. DU ammo gives off a dust so fine (on impact) that most respirators won't

filter it out. It's not a good situation over there.

(obvious understatement of the decade)

[Character Assassin]

40. This report is woefully incomplete and seems unaquainted with science.

Levels between 1,000 and 1,900 times higher than normal were recorded at four sites around the Iraqi capital where depleted uranium (DU) munitions have been used across wide areas.

Which doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with the presence or absence of DU. Where, precisely, are these four sites? What is the normal background radiation for those cites and what are the respective environmental variables?

DU rounds are highly combustible and tiny particles of the radioactive material are left on the battleground.

If inhaled the material can attack the body causing cancers, chronic illness, long-term disabilities and genetic birth defects - none of which will be apparent for at least five years.

And yet simple exposure to DU, aerosolized or otherwise, presents miniscule health risks from radiation, and, as an alpha emitter, is almost definitely not the source of increased ambient radiation contamination as alpha radiation is not able to penetrate human skin or clothing.

Evidence of massive uranium radiation has emerged in recent weeks. The Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle analysed swabs from bullet holes in Iraqi tanks and confirmed elevated radiation levels.

There is no such thing as 'uranium' radiation, per se, only alpha, beta, gamma and nuclear.

Secondly, swabbing entry holes in Iraqi armor would indicate minimal increased radiation due to the residue from the DU, so it could not honestly be called 'evelvated' in direct relation to the claim of 1,000 and 1,900 times higher than normal, which is the implication here.

Last month Scott Peterson, of the respected Christian Science Monitor, took Geiger counter readings at several sites in Baghdad. Near the Republican Palace, his radiation readings were the "hottest" in Iraq at nearly 1,900 times background radiation levels.

Without further details, this is, frankly, slanted horseshit. Normal backround levels of natural background radiation exposure averages about 2 mSv a year but this varies depending on the geology and altitude where people live.

The acute radiation syndrome developed in 134 employees of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and firemen, who received short-term whole-body radiation doses ranging from 800 to 16, 000 mGy.

I take it Mr. Peterson is no longer with us or, at the very least, quite rosy-colored.

Professor Malcolm Hooper, who sits on two committees advising the Government on Gulf health issues, said he is not surprised by the radiation levels.

I'm sure he is, given the absurd, pig-ignorance he demonstrates with the next sentence.

He said: "Really these things are dirty bombs. Exactly the sort of device that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair keep talking about being in the hands of terrorists."

Ah, so you were a political appointee were you, Professor Hooper?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

42. I wouldn't want to set up camp on a battlefield where DU was used...

You might, but not me. Here's a bit of info from the Depleted Uranium Education Project...

http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm

<snip>
Depleted uranium (DU) is the highly toxic and radioactive byproduct of the uranium enrichment process. "Depleted" uranium is so called because the content of the fissionable U-235 isotope is reduced from 0.7% to 0.2% during the enrichment process. The isotope U-238 makes up over 99% of the content of both natural uranium and depleted uranium. Depleted uranium is roughly 60% as radioactive as naturally occurring uranium, and has a half life of 4.5 billion years.2 As a result of 50 years of enriching uranium for use in nuclear weapons and reactors, the U.S. has in excess of 1.1 billion pounds of DU waste material.3

<snip>
When a DU penetrator impacts a target surface, a large portion of the kinetic energy is dissipated as heat. The heat of the impact causes the DU to oxidize or burn momentarily. This results in smoke which contains a high concentration of DU particles. These uranium particles can be ingested or inhaled and are toxic.16

Of the aerosolized particles produced, 60% are particles less than five microns in diameter (less than 10 microns being considered as respirable size).17 Army field tests have shown that when a vehicle is struck by a DU penetrator, the heaviest contamination occurs within 5 to 7 meters of the vehicle.18 However, DU particles thrown into the air by the round's impact, or by resultant fires and explosion, can be carried downwind for 25 miles or more.19

The DU armor on the M1A1 tanks proved effective in protecting tank crews from enemy fire, although the tank crews were continually irradiated by their own armor and DU rounds for the months many of them lived with their tanks. For example, a tank driver receives a radiation dose of 0.13 mrem/hr to his head from overhead DU armor.20 After just 32 continuous days, or 64 twelve-hour days, the amount of radiation a tank driver receives to his head will exceed the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's annual standard for public whole-body exposure to man-made sources of radiation.21 Unfortunately, U.S. tank crews were not monitored for radiation exposure during the Persian Gulf War.

During the ground war, only seven M1A1's were hit by rounds fired from the Iraqi's T-72 tanks, with none being seriously damaged. The Army reported that the Iraqi armed forces "destroyed no Abrams tanks during the Persian Gulf War."22 Nine Abrams tanks were destroyed during the war: seven due to friendly fire and two were intentionally destroyed to prevent capture after they became disabled.23 One incident in particular demonstrates the effectiveness of armor-piercing rounds and tank armor made of depleted uranium. As allied forces pushed into southern Iraq at the start of the ground war, an M1A1 tank became stuck in the mud.

The unit (part of the 24th Infantry Division) had gone on, leaving this tank to wait for a recovery vehicle. Three T-72's appeared and attacked. The first fired from under 1,000 meters, scoring a hit with a shaped-charge (high explosive) round on the M1A1's frontal armor. The hit did no damage. The M1A1 fired a 120mm armor-piercing (DU) round that penetrated the T-72 turret, causing an explosion that blew the turret into the air. The second T-72 fired another shaped-charge round, hit the frontal armor, and did no damage. The T-72 turned to run, and took a 120mm round in the engine compartment (which) blew the engine into the air. The last T-72 fired a solid shot (sabot) round from 400 meters. This left a groove in the M1A1's frontal armor and bounced off. The T-72 then backed up behind a sand berm and was completely concealed from view. The M1A1 depressed its gun and put a (DU) sabot round through the berm, into the T-72, causing an explosion.24

U.S. forces came in contact with DU on the battlefield in a variety of ways. Some were exposed during combat. Some were exposed during the recovery of contaminated U.S. vehicles which had been hit by friendly fire incidents. Some were exposed during a massive fire in July, 1991, at the U.S. base in Doha, Kuwait. And some who continue to work with DU weapons, or deploy to contaminated areas in Kuwait, are being exposed today. In most of these scenarios, exposure to DU could have been prevented or minimized if our troops had been warned ahead of time about the use of DU weapons and effective safety measures, and if they had been issued protective clothing including respirators and gloves. No warnings or protective gear were issued before the war, however, because "Army officials believe that DU protective methods can be ignored during battle or other life-threatening situations because DU-related health risks are greatly outweighed by the risks of combat."25
<snip>

[treepig]

66. the information in this paragraph is completely irrelevant

"The DU armor on the M1A1 tanks proved effective in protecting tank crews from enemy fire, although the tank crews were continually irradiated by their own armor and DU rounds for the months many of them lived with their tanks. For example, a tank driver receives a radiation dose of 0.13 mrem/hr to his head from overhead DU armor.20 After just 32 continuous days, or 64 twelve-hour days, the amount of radiation a tank driver receives to his head will exceed the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's annual standard for public whole-body exposure to man-made sources of radiation.21 Unfortunately, U.S. tank crews were not monitored for radiation exposure during the Persian Gulf War."

any sane anti-DU advocate knows that DU is only a hazard in the dust form when it can be breathed into the body. otherwise, the radiation (in the form of alpha particles) is blocked by the skin (or a piece of paper for that matter). if you want i can post many links verifying this fact(or go look for themselves to make sure i'm not feeding your mis-information).

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

69. See message 57 below for a listing of the people responsible for

the book this is quoted from. Would you like to live in a DU armoured vehicle? I would agree with the paragraph.

You could go to the site and check the reference (21) and see exactly where this information was obtained.

[treepig]

71. the paragraph is technically correct that exposure occurs

the misleading part is not explicity stating that the exposure has absolutely no health effects because alpha radiation cannot penetrate the skin. this tactic of selectively picking and choosing what information is presented is exactly what mr. bush did in the sotu address in the now infamous 16 words. his 16 words (and the above-quoted paragraph) can be considered to be accurate in a strictly limited sense, but a complete falsehood when supplied with the larger context. if people on this website (correctly) condemn the other side from using this tactic, shouldn't we refrain from doing the same thing?

[Flying_Pig]

43. CA: You wrote...

"There is no such thing as 'uranium' radiation, per se, only alpha, beta, gamma and nuclear.".

OK, fine. Let's not split hairs shall we? I can introduce you to several hundred gravesites of uranium miners in Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona, who died from exposure to uranium, and its dust. Of those who were exposed, and still living, the government apparently agreed the stuff was/is poison as well, and has given them large settlements, and an apology.

So, say what you will about the science quoted in the article, but the fact is, uranium kills, and the highly refined uranium powder in the DU shells, would certainly kill quicker than the unrefined, raw uranium that killed hundreds of miners. I am no scientist, but I know this shit kills, and I know the government will lie about it at every opportunity. That's enough for me....

[Kucinich04]

46. Is it not a similar idea to dirty bombs?

Wherein radioactive materials are blown up, and thus spread a cloud of radioactive dust/particles over a portion of a city? Obviously, the intent is different, but the end effect seems arguably similar. Or, am I just pig-ignorant? Please feel free to clue me in...

[Character Assassin]

48. A rhetorical statement. Dirty bombs are on the level of an urban myth

A dirty bomb, theoretically, is highly radioactive materials (preferably something at the gamma level) distributed by detonating conventional explosives.

The problem is that they would be impossible at any appreciable level of destruction to build without killing the builders or making transport of such a bomb impossible to conceal.

The difficulty is the relationshipe between the amount of the materials, the lethality of radiation and the ability to maintain containment before arrival or building at the target destination.

[Dover]

49. Excerpt from the Global Research article -

Excerpt from http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FLO308B.html

...Scott Peterson, a staff writer for the Christian Science Moni tor, reported on May 15 about taking Geiger counter readings at several sites in Baghdad. Near the Republican Palace where U.S. troops stood guard and over 1,000 employees walked in and out of the building, his radiation readings were the "hottest" in Iraq, at nearly 1,900 times background radiation levels. Spent shell casings still littered the ground.

At a roadside vegetable stand selling fresh bunches of parsley, mint and onions outside Baghdad, children played on a burnt-out Iraqi tank. The reporter's Geiger counter registered nearly 1,000 times normal background radiation. The U.S. uses armor-piercing shells coated with DU to destroy tanks.

The Aug. 4 Seattle Post Intelligencer reported elevated radiation levels at six sites from Basra to Baghdad. One destroyed tank near Baghdad had 1,500 times the normal background radiation. "The Pentagon and the United Nations estimate that the U.S. and Britain used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of armor-piercing shells made of depleted uranium during attacks on Iraq in March and April--far more than the 375 tons used in the 1991 Gulf War," wrote the Post Intelligencer.

The Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle analyzed swabs from bullet holes in Iraqi tanks and confirmed elevated radiation levels.

Radioactive and toxic

The extremely dense DU shells easily penetrate steel armor and burn on impact. The fire releases microscopic, radioactive and toxic dust particles of uranium oxide that travel with the wind and can be inhaled or ingested. They also spread contamination by seeping into the land and water.

In the human body, DU may cause harm to the internal organs due both to its chemical toxicity as a heavy metal and its release of radiation.

An otherwise useless by-product of the uranium-enrichment process, DU is attractive to military contractors because it is so cheap, often offered for free by the government.

[Terwilliger]

60. never mind

CA's got his estimable knowledge... those facts aren't important

[Character Assassin]

82. To those who refuse to recognize basic science, pehaps

The 'facts' in that article are so ridiculously off, and purposefully slanted that way to make a political point, that I'm not suprised there's no end to the suckers who take it as gospel and try to employ them to further their own political points.

The sheer depth of ignornance of even basic science in the general population never ceases to amaze me.

[treepig]

64. the one alarming statement in your quotes are that

children were playing on burned out iraqi tanks, now that's one case where the peer-reviewed scientific literature has shown an actual health hazard from DU does exist, as deduced from this article:

J Environ Radioact 2003;64(2-3):93-112
Properties, use and health effects of depleted uranium (DU): a general overview.

Bleise A, Danesi PR, Burkart W.

Depleted uranium (DU), a waste product of uranium enrichment, has several civilian and military applications. It was used as armor-piercing ammunition in international military conflicts and was claimed to contribute to health problems, known as the Gulf War Syndrome and recently as the Balkan Syndrome. This led to renewed efforts to assess the environmental consequences and the health impact of the use of DU. The radiological and chemical properties of DU can be compared to those of natural uranium, which is ubiquitously present in soil at a typical concentration of 3 mg/kg. Natural uranium has the same chemotoxicity, but its radiotoxicity is 60% higher. Due to the low specific radioactivity and the dominance of alpha-radiation no acute risk is attributed to external exposure to DU. The major risk is DU dust, generated when DU ammunition hits hard targets. Depending on aerosol speciation, inhalation may lead to a protracted exposure of the lung and other organs. After deposition on the ground, resuspension can take place if the DU containing particle size is sufficiently small. However, transfer to drinking water or locally produced food has little potential to lead to significant exposures to DU. Since poor solubility of uranium compounds and lack of information on speciation precludes the use of radioecological models for exposure assessment, biomonitoring has to be used for assessing exposed persons. Urine, feces, hair and nails record recent exposures to DU. With the exception of crews of military vehicles having been hit by DU penetrators, no body burdens above the range of values for natural uranium have been found. Therefore, observable health effects are not expected and residual cancer risk estimates have to be based on theoretical considerations. They appear to be very minor for all post-conflict situations, i.e. a fraction of those expected from natural radiation.

note the sentence in bold - i am taking the liberty to extrapolate that anyone who comes in contact with the burned out tank will be exposed to the same hazardous conditions (somehow i suspect the actual crews in the vehicles at the time of being hit have more to be concerned about health-wise than long-term health problems associated with DU).

[treepig]

68. when your cited material contains blatantly false statements like

"An otherwise useless by-product of the uranium-enrichment process, DU is attractive to military contractors because it is so cheap, often offered for free by the government."

it kinda casts doubt on everything presented.

from the world health organization (part of the bfee??):

Applications of depleted uranium

Due to its high density, about twice that of lead, the main civilian uses of DU include counterweights in aircraft, radiation shields in medical radiation therapy machines and containers for the transport of radioactive materials.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

if you've flown in a 747, a couple of tons of DU have accompanied you on your trip (i'm not saying if that's a good thing or not, just that it's reality). also, perhaps there's some irony in the fact that DU is actually used as a shield against radioactive materials?

Depleted uranium products manufactured by MSC include components for scientific instruments to containers for spent fuel shipping casks. Depleted uranium is an excellent shield against nuclear radiation, and therefore is used as a lining for radwaste containers that are being shipped for processing or disposal. The depleted uranium can be rolled into sheets and then formed in MSC’s drum making equipment into a cylinder that can then be seam welded and used as a sleeve shield for a radwaste container.


http://www.mfgsci.com/metprod.html

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

53. Durn, CA. I know where you can get a cheap apartment near Chernoble...

I reckon all this radioactive crap is poppycock just like global warming, smoking and eating raw pork.

[Character Assassin]

54. I reckon you utterly and entirely missed the point....

I reckon all this radioactive crap is poppycock just like global warming, smoking and eating raw pork.

You missed the point entirely. The misstatements in the 'report' are so scientifically illiterate and alarmist as to wonder which high school freshman wrote it.

It lacks facts, makes unwarranted assumptions, draws unsupportable conclusions and basically lies.

No one is stating that radiation, in certain forms, is dangerous, Einstein, but that wasn't the point. There is nothing tying DU, in whatever form, to these mystery, unnamed and undescribed 'hotspots' in Iraq to be found in the report.

But don't let that get in your way.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. Okay, Curie... (seems apropos, your calling me Einstein)

:evilgrin: (and both of them underestimated the toxicity of radioactive substances resulting in miscarriage and death).

In May, 1997, the International Action Center published a book of essays and lectures on depleted uranium: the contamination of the planet by the United States military. In addition to exposing the deadly duplicity of the Department of Defense, the book documents the genocide of Native Americans and Iraqis by military radiation, the connection between depleted uranium and Gulf War Syndrome, the underestimated dangers from low-level radiation, the legal ramifications of DU Production and Use, and the growing movement against DU.

It's a fairly damning investigation of the use of DU in weapons now in its 2nd printing.

here: http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm

The Authors

Glenn Alcalay is an anthropologist from New York and a member of the National Committee for Radiation Victims. He has worked on nuclear issues for more than twenty years. His main research and work has been in radioactive contamination of the Marshall Islands.

Frank Alexander, who prepared the photo exhibit and helped coordinate the material for this book, has been active in the environmental and anti-war movements.

Barbara Nimri Aziz is an anthropologist and journalist specializing on Middle East issues. She travels extensively throughout the Middle East and visited Iraq often both before and since the Gulf War to follow in detail social and economic developments. She specializes in analyzing the impact of the war and sanctions on Iraqi agriculture. Dr. Aziz produces a Saturday afternoon radio program on Pacifica-WBAI in New York.

Rosalie Bertell, GNSH, is a founding member and current president of the International Institute of Concern for Public Health and Editor in Chief of International Perspectives in Public Health. Dr. Bertell directed the International Medical Commission–Bhopal, which investigated the aftermath of the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal, and the International Medical Commission–Chernobyl. She wrote Handbook for Estimating the Health Effects of Ionizing Radiation and the ground-breaking No Immediate Danger: Prognosis for a Radioactive Earth.

Pat Broudy is legislative director of both the National Association of Atomic Veterans and the National Association of Atomic Survivors. Broudy helped found radiation exposure victims' organizations after her husband—exposed to radiation three times by the military—died from lymphoma in 1977. Since then she has testified twenty times before Congressional committees, including the recent Presidential Advisory Committee on Gulf War Illnesses and Human Radiation Exposure.

Helen Caldicott, Australian physician and anti-nuclear activist, was one of the most influential leaders of the worldwide nuclear freeze movement in the 1980s. She founded Physicians for Social Responsibility and Women's Action for Nuclear Disarmament. Dr. Caldicott was nominated for the Nobel Prize in 1985. She is the author of Nuclear Madness, If You Love This Planet and Missile Envy.

John Catalinotto, a mathematics lecturer at the City University of New York, was a national organizer of the American Servicemen's Union from 1967 to 1971. In 1992 he helped organize the International War Crimes Tribunal on U.S. crimes in the Gulf War. Since 1982 he has been a managing editor of Workers World weekly newspaper.

Ramsey Clark, former U.S. attorney general during the Johnson administration, is an internationally known lawyer and human-rights activist. Clark was instrumental in building worldwide opposition to the Gulf War as well as the sanctions against Iraq. Clark founded the International Action Center in 1992 to establish a permanent response network for global crises. He has been an opponent of U.S. military interventions in Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Libya and Somalia.

Leonard A. Dietz, physicist, worked from 1955-1983 at the Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory, which General Electric operated for the Atomic Energy Commission. He devised new techniques for high-precision isotopic analysis of uranium, plutonium and other elements. Dietz has published in numerous scientific journals and is a charter member of the American Society for Mass Spectrometry.

Tod Ensign, a lawyer, is director of Citizen Soldier, a non-profit GI/veterans rights advocacy organization. He is author of two books on the military and has contributed chapters to several others, including a chapter on "U.S. War Crimes in Vietnam and America's Veterans" for an anthology on the Vietnam war to be published by Syracuse University Press in 1997.

Dan Fahey, a Gulf War Syndrome activist, is researching DU use in the Gulf region. Dan is a case manager at Swords to Plowshares, a veterans' rights organization, and is on the Board of Directors of the National Gulf War Resource Center, Inc. He is a member of the Military Toxics Project's Depleted Uranium Citizen's Network, Veterans for Peace, and commander of Veterans of Foreign Wars' Post 5888 in Santa Cruz, California.

Sara Flounders is a co-coordinator of the International Action Center. She initiated the Anti-Sanctions Project of the IAC, which produced the 1996 book, The Children Are Dying, to expose and end the use of economic sanctions as a weapon of mass destruction. She coordinated the International War Crimes Tribunal which held hearings on U.S. war crimes in the Gulf in thirty U.S. cities and over twenty countries. She has organized opposition to U.S. military intervention in Bosnia, Panama and Somalia.

Lenora Foerstel has been the North American Coordinator of Women for Mutual Security since 1990. She is also on the board of Women's Strike for Peace. A cultural historian whose research on the South Pacific included extended field work with Margaret Mead, Foerstel has written numerous articles, produced films and recently edited the book, Creating Surplus Population: The Effect of Military and Corporate Policies on Indigenous Peoples.

Jay M. Gould is a former member of the EPA Science Advisory Board, which has researched and exposed the dangers of low-level radiation. He is the author of Deadly Deceit: Low Level Radiation, High Level Cover-Up; The Quality of Life in Residential Neighborhoods and his most recent, The Enemy Within—The High Cost of Living Near Nuclear Reactors.

Siegwart-Horst Guenther, founder and president of the Austrian Yellow Cross International, carried out several relief actions for the sick and starving Iraqi people. He was professor of Infectious Diseases and Epidemiology at Baghdad University. A Berlin court fined him in 1993 for violating the "Atomic Energy Law" when he attempted to bring a spent DU bullet into Germany.

Eric Hoskins is a medical doctor specializing in public health and epidemiology. Since 1990, he has provided humanitarian assistance and documented the Gulf crisis's impact on Iraqi children and women. As medical coordinator of the Harvard Study Team's surveys of health and welfare in postwar Iraq, Hoskins prepared the 1993 report for UNICEF, Children, War and Sanctions. In 1991, he was awarded Canada's most prestigious humanitarian award, the Lester B. Pearson Peace Medal.

Michio Kaku is a well-known nuclear physicist, author and commentator. Since 1977 he has been a professor of nuclear physics at the Graduate Center of City University of New York. He has written more than seventy articles and nine books, including his latest bestseller, Hyperspace. His Wednesday evening national Pacifica radio program has a wide audience.

Suzy T. Kane is a member of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom and past co-chair of the North East Westchester (N.Y.) SANE/Freeze. Her chapter is from her forthcoming book, The Hidden History of the Persian Gulf War.

Dolores Lymburner is a national organizer for the Military Toxics Project and the national coordinator of the Depleted Uranium Citizens' Network. This organization was the first to organize attention on DU, highlighting its many manufacturing and testing facilities in the U.S. She has been an environmental activist since 1986.

Carol H. Picou, Sergeant First Class, Army (retired), served with the 41st Combat Support Hospital in the Gulf War which drove past and worked among miles of incinerated Iraqi vehicles on the "Highway of Death." Picou has testified at Congressional hearings on Gulf War Syndrome. Because she demanded to know what happened to her and others' health, her career in the military ended. She co-founded MISSION Project–Military Issues Surfacing In Our Nation.

Manuel Pino, an environmental activist from the Acoma Pueblo in New Mexico, has worked since 1979 on uranium-mining issues. He is currently an instructor at Scottsdale Community College in Arizona. Pino continues to work with American Indian Nations throughout the United States that have been impacted by the nuclear fuel cycle and military testing.

Anna Rondon is a member of and community planner for the Dineh Nation (Navajo) in New Mexico and an organizer for the Southwest Indigenous Uranium Forum. She participated in the September 1996 Indigenous Anti-Nuclear Summit and testified at the World Uranium Hearing in Salzburg, Austria, in 1992. She has been active in nuclear issues since she was sixteen. Her activism began with the AIM Freedom Survival School.

Victor Sidel helped found Physicians for Social Responsibility. Since 1993, he has been co-president of the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War. An outspoken opponent of the arms race, he is on the Board of the Physicians for a National Health Program, which advocates a Canadian-style single-payer system for the United States. He is also co-editor of War and Public Health, recently published by Oxford University Press.

Alice Slater is the president of Global Resource Action Center for the Environment, which provides technical support and economic analysis of employment alternatives to communities with nuclear facilities. GRACE aims to connect individuals and organizations engaged in research, policy and grassroots community work to preserve the future of the planet. Slater is on the board of the Lawyers Committee on Nuclear Policy and is a founding mother of the Abolition 2000 Network for the Elimination of Nuclear Weapons.

Alyn Ware is the executive director of the Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy and the Pacific representative for the International Peace Bureau in Aotearoa—New Zealand—his home country. He established the Mobile Peace Van, a peace education service for schools nationwide. He has worked as a UN researcher for the World Federalist Movement and was the UN Representative for the Gulf Peace Team.

Philippa Winkler is a researcher and activist in the U.S. and the UK. She was project director of the book Hidden Casualties: The Environmental, Health and Political Consequences of the Persian Gulf War. Winkler; Karen Parker, an attorney specializing in humanitarian law; and Dr. Beatrice Boctor were the main actors in bringing the issue of sanctions against Iraq and depleted uranium to the UN Commission on Human Rights in March 1996.

Also see Dan Fahey's paper on DU here: http://www.du.publica.cz/papers/Fahey.htm

DU can and does kill.

[treepig]

72. since you referred me to this post, i'll go ahead and comment

what you have here is a political advocacy group who's trying to get weapons use of DU banned. i think that is a very goal and wish them luck.

however, having said that, they do not present a scientifically accurate accounting of DU. their publications scarcely cites peer-reviewed scientific papers of the type you'd find at the National Institute of Health's PUBMED search engine:

http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

instead they depend on google-derived results, which must be taken with a grain of salt since anyone can freely develop websites touting whatever they choose.

if the reader desires a handy compilation of peer-reviewed scientific articles (and peer review is a big thing, because if you've found to publish in-accurate findings, your research will no longer be funded and your career is over), please consult the following site:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/0265931X

go to volume 64, issue 2/3 for a 'complimentary' issue the Journal of Environmental Radioactivity devoted to many aspects of DU and its use in the battlefield.

[NickB79]

56. Are there ways DU can cause harm other than via radiation?

"And yet simple exposure to DU, aerosolized or otherwise, presents miniscule health risks from radiation, and, as an alpha emitter, is almost definitely not the source of increased ambient radiation contamination as alpha radiation is not able to penetrate human skin or clothing."

This sidesteps the chemical toxicity potential that depleted uranium can have when it enters the human body. I fully agree with you that the levels of radiation given off by DU have been blown out of proportion. That doesn't mean that DU is safe, though, if it can act on a different basis, such as heavy metal poisoning. I would like to see refutation of potential non-radiation hazards of DU.

[treepig]

62. i've posted this information before to great ridicule

but it has,however, never been factually discounted that,

DU is not a radiation hazard!!

no one has ever died from DU's radiation, if for no other reason than the chemical toxicological effects are one million times worse! you'd be long dead from heavy metal poisoning upon exposure to DU before its radiation harmed your health, this information is in part from:

J Inorg Biochem 2002 Jul 25;91(1):246-52 Related Articles, Links

Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay.

Miller AC, Stewart M, Brooks K, Shi L, Page N.

Applied Cellular Radiobiology Department, Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute, 8901 Wisconsin Ave., Bethesda, MD 20889-5603, USA.

Depleted uranium (DU) is a dense heavy metal used primarily in military applications. Published data from our laboratory have demonstrated that DU exposure in vitro to immortalized human osteoblast cells (HOS) is both neoplastically transforming and genotoxic. DU possesses both a radiological (alpha particle) and a chemical (metal) component. Since DU has a low-specific activity in comparison to natural uranium, it is not considered to be a significant radiological hazard. In the current study we demonstrate that DU can generate oxidative DNA damage and can also catalyze reactions that induce hydroxyl radicals in the absence of significant alpha particle decay. Experiments were conducted under conditions in which chemical generation of hydroxyl radicals was calculated to exceed the radiolytic generation by 10(6)-fold.(note that 10(6) is one million) The data showed that markers of oxidative DNA base damage, thymine glycol and 8-deoxyguanosine could be induced from DU-catalyzed reactions of hydrogen peroxide and ascorbate similarly to those occurring in the presence of iron catalysts. DU was 6-fold more efficient than iron at catalyzing the oxidation of ascorbate at pH 7. These data not only demonstrate that DU at pH 7 can induced oxidative DNA damage in the absence of significant alpha particle decay, but also suggest that DU can induce carcinogenic lesions, e.g. oxidative DNA lesions, through interaction with a cellular oxygen species.

furthermore, the comparison of DU with fallout from cold-war atomic bomb fallout is completely bogus - i'll leave it to the reader to do their own research to compare the effects of U-238 (depleted uranium) with plutonium and other radioisotopes released in atmospheric nuclear weapons testing.

[Junkdrawer]

75. Alpha emitters harmeless? Would you like to inhale a little DU dust?

Before you do, I'd read this first:

http://www.tricity.wsu.edu/ustur/website/annual%20report%2096-97/plu%20in%20dogs.htm

[treepig]

76. hello reading comprehension?

why do you post a link about plutonium in a thread about depleted uranium? do you not understand there is a substantial difference between the two compounds?

furthermore, you ask if alpha emitters are harmless? if they're outside the body, then they are, but that's not really the point i was trying make here. the point is, and i'll say it again in bold so you perhaps will grasp this concept the chemical effects of DU are one million fold greater than its radiation effects!! if you want to be concerned about the health effects of DU, fine, that's a legitimate concern but doing either of the following two things just makes you appear to be a moran:

1. comparing the effects of DU to "dirty bombs," plutonium, or cold war weapons fallout.

2. seeing headlines such as "extreme radiation in baghdad" and then postulating that the extreme radiation is due to depleted uranium.

neither point has any basis in reality. sure, there may be "extreme radiation" in baghdad, but if so, it's not due to depleted uranium (perhaps it due to looted materials from the Tuwiatha (sp?) facility). as a separate issue, there may in fact be dangerously high levels of depleted uranium in baghdad which are indeed a health hazard (but not due to it's radiation).

[Junkdrawer]

79. The point is that alpha emitters, inside the body, are one of if not...

the most potent carcinogens known to man. And since you want to refer to me as a "moran", I'll say that it's clear you are a disinformation troll since you keep trying to imply alpha emitters are harmless because they are harmless outside the body.

[treepig]

81. have you done the calculations to show how much

cellular damage can be caused by alpha emissions from an inhaled DU particle?

let me know what your results are!

[Junkdrawer]

83. Wow. Even the most rabid pro-nuke advocates acknowledge that...

alpha emitters are carcinogenic inside the body. You must be the fringe of the fringe.

[treepig]

86. and you must be the amongst the uninformed of the uninformed

sure, alpha emitters can be carcinogenic inside the body. big deal, almost anything, including water, can be carcinogenic - but that doesn't mean that it is under the circumstance at hand.

the question here is whether exposure to DU provides high enough levels of alpha radiation to be harmful. to answer this question, you need to:

1. determine the size of an inhaled DU particle
2. determine how many alpha particles are emitted by the particle in a given time period
3. assess the cellular damage caused by the determined number of alpha particles
4. compare this cellular damage with known abilities of cells to repair this damage
5. if the induced level of damage exceeds the ability of a cell to repair the damage, then there's a problem, otherwise there isn't.

once again, do the calculations!!

incidentally, you say alpha emitters are carcinogenic inside the body. how ironic is it that they are deliberately introduced into the body to cure cancer?

Colorectal Dis. 2001 Sep;3(5):345-353.

In vitro and preclinical studies of targeted alpha therapy (TAT) for colorectal cancer.

Rizvi SM, Allen BJ, Tian Z, Goozee G, Sarkar S.

Centre of Experimental Radiation Oncology (CERO), St George Hospital, Kogarah, Australia University of New South Wales (UNSW), Kensington, Australia University of Wollongong, Wollongong, Australia Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency (ARPANSA), Miranda, NSW, Australia.

INTRODUCTION: Effective targeted cancer therapy requires high selectivity and cytotoxicity of the labelled product. We report the preparation and testing of anticolorectal cancer monoclonal antibody c30.6 radioimmunoconjugates (RIC) labelled with alpha-emitting Bismuth-213 and positron emitting Terbium-152 using two chelators, viz. Cyclic dianhydride of diethylenetriaminepentacetic acid (DTPA) and CHX-A" (a DTPA derivative). METHODS: Selectivity and stability of the RIC were tested in vitro (flow cytometry) and in vivo (biodistribution, organ/tumour uptake and retention). Cytotoxicity assays were carried out using tritiated thymidine uptake (inhibition of DNA synthesis) and MTS assay. RESULTS: High labelling efficiency (ranging between 89 and 91%) and stability over 2-5 half-lives of the isotopes were seen. Kidney retention was not seen in contrast to high uptake and retention of both conjugates in tumours. Flow cytometry studies showed high specificity of the antibody before and after labelling and this unchanged targeting behaviour was reflected in cytotoxicity assays. These assays showed that only alpha-labelled antibody could selectively kill the cancer cells for activities as low as 2-3 &mgr;Ci. The study also revealed that free isotopes or isotopes bound to nonspecific antibodies did not kill cancer cells. CONCLUSION: The stability of the RICs and outstanding cytotoxicity of the alpha emitter, together with no kidney retention and high tumour uptake and retention of the radiolabel, offers a new approach for the potential control of colorectal cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12790958&dopt=Abstract

also, from http://www.uic.com.au/nip26.htm

Many therapeutic procedures are palliative, usually to relieve pain. For instance, strontium-89 and (increasingly) samarium 153 are used for the relief of cancer-induced bone pain.

A new field is targeted alpha therapy (TAT), especially for the control of dispersed cancers. The short range of very energetic alpha emissions in tissue means that a large fraction of that radiative energy goes into the targeted cancer cells, once a carrier has taken the alpha-emitting radionuclide to exactly the right place. Laboratory studies are encouraging and clinical trials for leukaemia, cystic glioma and melanoma are under way.

An experimental development of this is neutron capture therapy using boron-10 which concentrates in malignant brain tumours. The patient is then irradiated with thermal neutrons which are strongly absorbed by the boron, producing high-energy alpha particles which kill the cancer. This requires the patient to be brought to a nuclear reactor, rather than the radioisotopes being taken to the patient.

[Junkdrawer]

87. Looks like Character Assassin and you are both willing to sign up...

for the human trials of DU dust inhalation. Sounds like a great press gimmick - should silence us radiation nuts once and for all.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Character Assassin]

89. Yes, radiation nut seems particularly appropriate for you

Because the radioactivity of DU is very low, the chemical toxicity of DU the significant contributor to human health risk. It's a heavy metal, or had that perhaps escaped your notice? The radiation, within or outside of the body, is simply not the determining factor.

Toxicity and health risk are related to metal solubility. Uranium concentrates in the bone, kidney and liver. Human epidemiological studies of workers in the uranium mining and milling industries suggest that nephrotoxicity is the primary chemical toxicity concern.

I'm glad we could have this little talk.

[Junkdrawer]

90. It really doesn't take much alpha emitter to cause cancer...

micrograms (millionths of a gram) is sufficient. It is believed that the strong ionizing radiation of alpha particles at close range to the cell nucleus does it.

[treepig]

92. ok, you've done the math,

and it shows you're way off.

you maintain that "millionths of a gram" of an alpha emitter can cause cancer. leaving aside the meaninglessness of the statement (a millionth of a gram of different radioisotopes can emit dramatically different amounts of alpha particles in a given time period), let's consider the size of any inhaled DU particle. i've seen estimates in the range of 2.5 microns in diameter. a 2.5 micron DU particle has a mass of about 1.5 nanograms. that's billionths of a gram - according to you, you need one thousand times more (millionths of a gram) to cause cancer. awaiting your backpedaling . . .

on edit, a link for the size of DU particles:

http://www.gavagai.pl/nato/depleted.htm

(Particles do not exceed 2.5 micrometers in diameter and essentially have ceramic form, in other words, they are not soluble and stay unchanged for good.)

[Junkdrawer]

94. Never said you had to have micrograms - only said micrograms..

does cause cancer. And I'd love to know how you would quantify the ability of cell nuclei to repair themselves.

[treepig]

98. dna repair - cells aren't just helpless believe it or not

point #1 - a lot of dna damage occurs during natural metabolism - in the rat there are 90,000 sites of DNA damage per day:

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Jun;87(12):4533-7.

Oxidative damage to DNA during aging: 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine in rat organ DNA and urine.

Fraga CG, Shigenaga MK, Park JW, Degan P, Ames BN.

Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley 94720.

Oxidative damage to DNA is shown to be extensive and could be a major cause of the physiological changes associated with aging and the degenerative diseases related to aging such as cancer. The oxidized nucleoside, 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine (oh8dG), one of the approximately 20 known oxidative DNA damage products, has been measured in DNA isolated from various organs of Fischer 344 rats of different ages. oh8dG was present in the DNA isolated from all the organs studied: liver, brain, kidney, intestine, and testes. Steady-state levels of oh8dG ranged from 8 to 73 residues per 10(6) deoxyguanosine residues or 0.2-2.0 x 10(5) residues per cell. Levels of oh8dG in DNA increased with age in liver, kidney, and intestine but remained unchanged in brain and testes. The urinary excretion of oh8dG, which presumably reflects its repair from DNA by nuclease activity, decreased with age from 481 to 165 pmol per kg of body weight per day for urine obtained from 2-month- and 25-month-old rats, respectively. 8-Hydroxyguanine, the proposed repair product of a glycosylase activity, was also assayed in the urine. We estimate approximately 9 x 10(4) oxidative hits to DNA per cell per day in the rat. The results suggest that the age-dependent accumulation of oh8dG residues observed in DNA from liver, kidney, and intestine is principally due to the slow loss of DNA nuclease activity; however, an increase in the rate of oxidative DNA damage cannot be ruled out.

(in the human, estimates range from 50,000 to 250,000 DNA damages per cell per day).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2352934&dopt=Abstract

point #2 - but we aren't all dead because our cells can repair this damage

Crit Rev Biochem Mol Biol. 2001;36(3):261-90.

Unraveling DNA repair in human: molecular mechanisms and consequences of repair defect.

Tuteja N, Tuteja R.

International Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, Aruna Asaf Ali Marg, New Delhi, India.

Cellular genomes are vulnerable to an array of DNA-damaging agents, of both endogenous and environmental origin. Such damage occurs at a frequency too high to be compatible with life. As a result cell death and tissue degeneration, aging and cancer are caused. To avoid this and in order for the genome to be reproduced, these damages must be corrected efficiently by DNA repair mechanisms. Eukaryotic cells have multiple mechanisms for the repair of damaged DNA. These repair systems in humans protect the genome by repairing modified bases, DNA adducts, crosslinks and double-strand breaks. The lesions in DNA are eliminated by mechanisms such as direct reversal, base excision and nucleotide excision. The base excision repair eliminates single damaged-base residues by the action of specialized DNA glycosylases and AP endonucleases. Nucleotide excision repair excises damage within oligomers that are 25 to 32 nucleotides long. This repair utilizes many proteins to remove the major UV-induced photoproducts from DNA, as well as other types of modified nucleotides. Different DNA polymerases and ligases are utilized to complete the separate pathways. The double-strand breaks in DNA are repaired by mechanisms that involve DNA protein kinase and recombination proteins. The defect in one of the repair protein results in three rare recessive syndromes: xeroderma pigmentosum, Cockayne syndrome, and trichothiodystrophy. This review describes the biochemistry of various repair processes and summarizes the clinical features and molecular mechanisms underlying these disorders

point #3 - still waiting for those calculations - how much does an inhaled DU particle increase the DNA repair burden to a cell? is it significant wrt to 'background' levels of damage?

[Junkdrawer]

99. So you claim to have a radiation tolerance equation? Have you..

published? Could you disclose your models? How about animal trials? Have you been peer reviewed?

[treepig]

100. you can find plenty of peer reviewed information at PUBMED

the internet search engine of peer-reviewed literature provided by the NIH

here: http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

just search on DNA repair, ionization radiation, depleted uranium, or whatever interests you

also, check out this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=370

once again, do the calculations that show that a DU particle can harm a cell, and i'll shut up! otherwise you're just blowing hot air

[Junkdrawer]

101. Sorry - saying that your model (if it even exists - you have yet...

to show it to me) is the only lens on reality just doesn't pass muster. Again, here's an EPA article:

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/alpha.htm

How can alpha particles affect peoples health?
The health effects of alpha particles depend heavily upon how exposure takes place. External exposure (external to the body) is of far less concern than internal exposure, because alpha particles lack the energy to penetrate the outer dead layer of skin.

However, if alpha emitters have been inhaled, ingested (swallowed) or absorbed into the blood stream, sensitive living tissue can be exposed to alpha radiation. The resulting biological damage increases the risk of cancer; in particular, alpha radiation is known to cause lung cancer in humans when alpha emitters are inhaled.

The greatest exposures to alpha radiation for average citizens comes from the inhalation of radon and its decay products, several of which also emit potent alpha radiation.

[treepig]

102. you can keep posting that alpha emitters cause cancer

and i could keep posting example of where they are used to treatcancer. (believe me, i have hundreds of studies on reference).

of course, neither your link (which focused on radon, a decay product of natural uranium, btw) or mine (regarding the therapeutic use of radioisotopes) has anything to do with DU.

the specific question that needs to be answered is whether DU dust can harm a cell! you seem unwilling to do the math, why?

[Junkdrawer]

103. Because "doing the math" requires a model. Your the one who claims...

there is a model. Show it to me or shut up.

[treepig]

104. the model was in post #86 i believe

in any event, here it is once again:

the question here is whether exposure to DU provides high enough levels of alpha radiation to be harmful. to answer this question, you need to:

1. determine the size of an inhaled DU particle
2. determine how many alpha particles are emitted by the particle in a given time period
3. assess the cellular damage caused by the determined number of alpha particles (in the given time period)
4. compare this cellular damage with known abilities of cells to repair this damage (in the given time period)
5. if the induced level of damage exceeds the ability of a cell to repair the damage, then there's a problem, otherwise there isn't.

[Junkdrawer]

105. That's an outline for a possible investigation into a hypothetical..

model. Care to put some meat on those bones? Equations would be nice.

[treepig]

109. radiation risk from inhaled aerosolized DU dust particles

addressing the question “how much radiation does an inhaled DU particle produce?”

(i think it is generally agreed that any possible health hazards are from internalized DU, not to be in the vicinity of intact munitions).

to answer this question, we consider that the size of depleted uranium aerosolized particles is 2.5 microns:

from http://www.gavagai.pl/nato/depleted.htm

and then calculate the number of uranium atoms present in the particle by using the relationship:

volume = 4/3(pi)r3 ;

one particle has therefore has:

a volume of 8.18 x 10e-18 m3 or 8.18 x 10e-15 L3 or 8.18 x 10e-12 cm3

a mass of (8.18 x 10e-12 cm3) x (17.9 g/cm3) = 1.46 x 10e-10 g

(based on a density of 17.9 g/cm3)

Now, to calculate the number of atoms in one particle:

(1.46 x 10e-10 g) x (1 mole/238 g) x (6.02 x 10e23 molecules/mole) = 3.7 x 10e11 atoms

now let’s calculate how many alpha particles are released each day:

(3.7x 10e11 atoms/particle) / <(4.5 x 10e9 years/decay half-life) x (365 days/year) x (2*)> = 0.0282 decay events per particle per day

* factoring in half-life considerations

for comparison purposes, a similarly sized particle of plutonium would support ~320,00 decay events per day.


it should be noted that each alpha emission from U-238 (DU) starts a cascade of additional radioactive decay events (eventually leading to lead, which is stable):

http://www.ccnr.org/decay_U238.html

in all there are 14 subsequent decay events, but only the first two Th-234 to Pa-234 (1/2 life = 24.1 days) and Pa-234 to U-234 (1/2 life = 6.7 hours) would be expected to occur in the lifetime of the host and need to be considered (the next step has a 1/2 life of 245,000 years). for simplicity’s sake, let’s assume these decay events happen simultaneously with the original U-238 to Th-234 alpha emission (note: this assumption increases the danger level, so it’s not like i’m trying to minimize risks).

ok, let’s summarize the decay events:

U-238 to Th-234: alpha emission @ 4.270 MeV
Th-234 to Pa-234: beta emission @ .273 MeV
Pa-234 to U-234: beta emission @ 2.197 MeV

total energy released is 6.740 MeV per each set of decay events (energy levels are from http://www2.bnl.gov/ton/index.html ), and since 0.0282 decay events per day occur, that’s an average of 0.190 MeV per day of high energy particles that a cell must deal with over the long term (note that MeV represents mega-electron volts, so 0.190 MeV is 190,000 eV).

now let’s turn to cellular damage. high energy ionizing radiation damages cells indirectly by ‘damaging’ water (the most common molecule in a cell; this process is described in detail at http://www.photobiology.com/educational/len/part2.htm ). basically what happens is that the high energy particle impacts water molecules, successively damaging them by creating reactive oxygen species such as hydroxyl radicals (note that these molecules are also a by-product of natural metabolism). each interaction reduces the energy of the high energy particle by about 47 eV. consequently the 190,000 eV per day calculated above translates into the generation of about 4,042 reactive oxygen species per day (i.e., 190,000/47).

each of these reactive oxygen species has the potential to damage dna. but there are enzymes (superoxide dismutase, for example that actively scavenge reactive oxygen species specifically so that dna damage is avoided. furthermore, you may have been seduced by your trendy friends to take anti-oxidants as a dietary supplement – if so, they’re also going to be hanging around to intercept the potentially damaging reactive oxygen species before they can damage your dna). but let’s discount these factors in order to maximize the danger from the radiation. in this case, let’s assume that all reactive oxygen species will react with what cellular biomolecule they encounter first. considering that most cells are from 1 to 10% DNA by volume (the DNA stays the same, but the rest of the cell varies dramatically) that means at most 10% of the 4,042 reactive oxygen species will be able to damage dna. that’s ~400 sites of damage per day, but considering that a cell normally has to deal with 50,000 to 250,000 sites of damage per day (by repairing them), the additional repair load is only between 0.2 and 1.0% (in reality, many of the damages would not occur because the damaging molecules would have been scavenged by the protective enzymes or anti-oxidants long they could damage anything).

OK, that's the radiation danger from DU, really, it's not that bad (perhaps the danger is comparable to the chance of drowning in one gallon of water, perhaps it's possible, but not likely). now consider the chemical effects, as i posted above, one million more reactive oxygen species can be generated by DU chemically than radiologically (think - maybe, just maybe, you could drown in a million gallons of water to continue the inane example). anyhow, supporting the idea the DU is a radiation hazard is like saying george bush is evil because he's a child rapist - sure, he's evil, but for different reasons. but if you keep harping away that he's a child rapist, you soon lose all credibility and nobody's going to believe anything you say.

[Junkdrawer]

110. Gosh that's a lot of work, especially when you jump from...

hard facts in one part (say the ionizing potential of a particular alpha particle) to massive guesses (say the only effect of that ionization is on water) in another part. Me? I'll stick with the animal trials of the toxicology of alpha emitters and the epidemiological studies the UN may do someday when tell-tale cancers start showing up in Baghdad.

[treepig]

111. massive guesses? there's plenty of peer-reviewed papers

that describe the generation of reactive oxygen species within a cell upon exposure to ionizing radiation (it doesn't really matter if reacts with water, or another molecule, statistically water is the most common molecule in a cell so i used it as my example). it is well established that x units of energy generates y number of reactive oxygen species. the numbers i gave were upper limits - there's no way a cell could have experienced more damage. since you lose by considering these effects alone, you're hoping the epidemiological studies will bail you out (hello, hello, have you missed my posts about the the chemical effects of DU??? - how are you going to account for them in your epidemiological studies)

here's some papers to get you calibrated to the generation of reactive oxygen species due to radiation (contrary to your mis-understanding, 'massive guesses' aren't required, it's a quantitative science):


Hum Exp Toxicol. 2002 Feb;21(2):85-90.
Reactive oxygen species in cell responses to toxic agents.
Feinendegen LE.
Medical Department, Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, New York 11073, USA. [e-mail]

This review first summarizes experimental data on biological effects of different concentrations of ROS in mammalian cells and on their potential role in modifying cell responses to toxic agents. It then attempts to link the role of steadily produced metabolic ROS at various concentrations in mammalian cells to that of environmentally derived ROS bursts from exposure to ionizing radiation. The ROS from both sources are known to both cause biological damage and change cellular signaling, depending on their concentration at a given time. At low concentrations signaling effects of ROS appear to protect cellular survival and dominate over damage, and the reverse occurs at high ROS concentrations. Background radiation generates suprabasal ROS bursts along charged particle tracks several times a year in each nanogram of tissue, i.e., average mass of a mammalian cell. For instance, a burst of about 200 ROS occurs within less than a microsecond from low-LET irradiation such as X-rays along the track of a Compton electron (about 6 keV, ranging about 1 microm). One such track per nanogram tissue gives about 1 mGy to this mass. The number of instantaneous ROS per burst along the track of a 4-meV alpha-particle in 1 ng tissue reaches some 70000. The sizes, types and sites of these bursts, and the time intervals between them directly in and around cells appear essential for understanding low-dose and low dose-rate effects on top of effects from endogenous ROS. At background and low-dose radiation exposure, a major role of ROS bursts along particle tracks focuses on ROS-induced apoptosis of damage-carrying cells, and also on prevention and removal of DNA damage from endogenous sources by way of temporarily protective, i.e., adaptive, cellular responses. A conclusion is to consider low-dose radiation exposure as a provider of physiological mechanisms for tissue homoeostasis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12102502&dopt=Abstract

the following paper describes the intracellular fate of reactive oxygen species in excrutiating detail (although you can't tell it from the abstract)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12947383&dopt=Abstract

from this peer-reviewed paper, discussing clinical use of radio-isotopes (which results in much higher cellular exposure to radiation than occur from DU), note the following:

An important question that arises is how the few primary ionization events produced at clinically relevant doses (approximately 2000/Gy/cell) are amplified to account for the rapid and robust activation of cellular signal transduction pathways (Ward, 1994). Even considering secondary free radical products resulting from the initial ionization, the calculated amount of reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated is relatively insignificant compared to the amount produced by metabolism

[Junkdrawer]

112. Really good sophistry...

Pretty soon, you'll be able to convince the poor beagles that died of osteosarcoma in the Battelle Northwest studies that, by the numbers, they never should have contracted cancer.

Oh, and my guess is that an identifiable form (or forms) of cancer will be expressed that is wildly larger than the normal expected rates.

The only thing frightening to come out of this little thread is the thought that someday the nuclear industry will try to do Maximum Acceptable Dosage with such half-assed science. (e.g. "Screw the population studies, we can calculate the damage." Makes my blood run cold just thinking of it.)

[treepig]

114. why do you keep lying?

the beagles were exposed to plutonium not DU!!

did you miss where i pointed out that a DU particle would support 0.0282 decay events per day

and for comparison purposes, a similarly sized particle of plutonium would support ~320,000 decay events per day.

your beagles were exposed to a form of radiation 11,000,000 times more potent that DU - it's not that difficult to see why they got cancer (but very difficult to see the relevance to the current discussion)

[treepig]

113. ok, let's compare doses directly

form the citation in post #111, we see clinical treatment of cells is 2000/Gy/cell. the unit of measurement here is the 'Gy' which has units of Joules/kg (Gy is a measure of absorbed radiation). therefore to compare with our example, specifically the DU-exposed cell, we have to convert 190,000 eV to the Joule equivalent, and determine the mass of a cell.

first, the eV to Joule conversion:

190,000 eV x 1.60 x 10e-21 = 3.04 x 10e-14 Joules (that's how much energy the DU - exposed cell is subject to on a daily basis).

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictE.html

now, determining the mass of a cell:

a typical cell is ~15 microns in diameter, and therefore has a volume (assuming spherical dimensions, such as a leukocyte would have) of ~27.6 x 10e-15 liters. cells are slightly denser than water, so the mass of the cell would be ~40 x 10e-15 kg.

now putting the two together, (3.04 x 10e-14 Joules)/(40 x 10e-15 kg) = 0.76 Gy.

bottom line:

clinical dose of radiation: 2000 Gy
radiation from DU dust: 0.76 Gy (note - that's only if all radiation is concentrated to one cell, if there were (let's say) seven surrounding cells, the dose would be 0.1 Gy or 20,000 times less than used medically). i too am eagerly waiting for those epidemiological studies.

[Junkdrawer]

95. Here's an EPA article that addresses Alpha Particles...

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/alpha.htm

How do alpha emitters get into the environment?
Most alpha emitters occur naturally in the environment. For example, alpha particles are given off by uranium-238, radium-226, and other members of the uranium decay series. These are present in varying amounts in nearly all rocks, soils, and water. However, human activity, create or worsen the potential for exposure of people and contamination of various environmental media. For example, uranium mining wastes, known as uranium mill tailings, have high concentrations of uranium and radium. Once brought to the surface, they can be become airborne or enter surface water as runoff. A second example is the mining and processing of phosphate for fertilizer. The currently used process generates large piles or "stacks" of phosphogypsum, in which naturally occurring radium is concentrated.

...

How can alpha particles affect peoples health?
The health effects of alpha particles depend heavily upon how exposure takes place. External exposure (external to the body) is of far less concern than internal exposure, because alpha particles lack the energy to penetrate the outer dead layer of skin.

However, if alpha emitters have been inhaled, ingested (swallowed) or absorbed into the blood stream, sensitive living tissue can be exposed to alpha radiation. The resulting biological damage increases the risk of cancer; in particular, alpha radiation is known to cause lung cancer in humans when alpha emitters are inhaled.

The greatest exposures to alpha radiation for average citizens comes from the inhalation of radon and its decay products, several of which also emit potent alpha radiation.

[Character Assassin]

85. Are you kidding? The report in question trumpets 'extreme radiation'

And has precious little to do with carcinogenic potential of DU, but rather screams about extreme external radiation levels implying that that's the cause for alarm. And that's what people are calling them on here.

X: "Oh my god, there are external ambient radiation levels up to 1,900 times greater than normal background levels at four places in Iraq! We're all going to die! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!"

Y: "Um... hold on, DU cannot cause such radiation levels, and here's why, so your concerns about radiation, its effects and the alarmist nature of the report regarding such irrelevancies as measurements by journalists at shell entry points beyone the level of the controller room at Chernobyl are unjustified."

X: "Goddamn it, it's about the carcinogenic exposure risk once DU is internalized! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

[Junkdrawer]

97. BTW: Condescending attitudes usually belie inferior intelligence...

You do yourselves no credit.

[Nottingham]

44. Well Surprise Surprise! One way to annhilate a race of people

Is irradiate them! and we are doing it to our own soldiers!

Join the Army and get Irradiated! :bounce:

This is a Nightmare getting Worse!

[rocktivity]

45. Ann Coulter says the soliders are just getting their hair mussed?

Sounds like their genetics are getting mussed, too.


rocknation

[Dover]

47. I sense mutiny in Baghdad.....and not just from the Iraqis.

....On the news tonight they showed the new and improved soldier accomodations in Iraq - air conditioned tents, much better food, a swimming pool, computer cafe's for communication with loved ones, etc. But the radiation will trump all that...horrendous!

[leftofthedial]

50. US forces also failed to secure radiocative material

after conquering Iraq.

Hospitals and research facilities were looted, including much radioactive material. That's gotta be somewhere now, right?

[treepig]

67. yes, this 'oversight' is a much more likely source of health problems

for the general population . . .

TUWAITHA, Iraq (CNN) -- Villagers near Iraq's largest nuclear research facility complain that they are falling ill from what doctors say may be radiation poisoning.

The research facility, which stores nonweapons-grade radioactive materials, was looted in the final days of the Iraq war. Many containers were stolen and used by residents near the Tuwaitha complex to store drinking water, among other things. The facility is about six miles (10 kilometers) south of Baghdad.

U.N. weapons inspectors who monitored the site before the war said low-grade radioactive material may have been stored in the drums.

Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency said they had sealed nuclear materials before the start of the war.

more at http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/16/sprj.nilaw.iraq.radiation/

[ewagner]

108. Agree

There were reports early after the (ahem) major combat was over that looters were using vessels previously used to store radioactive waste for water carriers. There could be a lot of radioactive material spread by the looters...........

[diamond14]

55. 5,000 Vets sick ???? more like 221,000 Vets on medical disability

these 'cheap-labor conservatives are always trying to low-ball chronic disabilities caused by chemical/nuclear...be it WTC injuries, occupational injuries, or OUR Veterans...5,000 vs. the facts of 221,000 Veterans on medical disability from Gulf War 1....these exposures destroyed a lot a young Americans...


-snip-

What Rokke and other outspoken Desert Storm veterans fear is today's troops are being exposed to many of the same battlefield conditions that they believe are responsible for Gulf War Syndrome. These illnesses have left 221,000 veterans on medical disability and another 51,000 seeking that status from the Veterans Administration as of May 2002.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7570

[Q]

65. Why the hell is the US (Bush*) bombing residential areas?

- This is something a civilized nation doesn't do...and it's against the Geneva convention and other international laws.

[treepig]

70. i've also seen mr. rokke presented as espousing the view that DU

is responsible for all the ailments suffered by sufferers of gulf war syndrome. however i went and looked up exactly what major rokke said about inhalation of DU, quoting him:

ROKKE: Absolutely. My exposure was due to inhalation, and that was faulty gas masks which are faulty today and the Department of the Army has acknowledged it, the Department of Defense of has acknowledged it, the US General Accounting Office has verified that the gas masks are defective. The filters are inadequate to take out the primary less than .1 - .3 micron uranium particles that go right in the lung.

read the whole interview here http://www.ecotecture.com/library_eco/interviews/rokke_du_1b.html

that's usually the extent that mr. rokke is quoted, however when looking for the quote quoted above, i also came upon a longer address by mr. rokke:

( http://sftimes.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$61 )

where he details other seemingly unhealthy conditions his unit encounter in the gulf war, these include:

anthrax and botulinum vaccinations (of which some batches were contaminated with squalene)

ingestion of PB tablets (an nerve gas antidote)

contaminated food (possibly due to sabotage with biological agents)

water sanitation issues that prevented bathing

exposure to incomplete combustion of inorganic and organic compounds from oil well fires

physical injuries

quite frankly, it's not at all clear to me how these factors shouldn't be given some?/equal?/greater? consideration compared to depleted uranium in trying to determine the cause of the gulf war syndrome.

[kimchi]

74. So if DU is no threat, what has caused all the horrendous birth defects

in Iraqi babies? Google it if you have a strong stomach.

I'd really like to know what all the naysayers think.

[treepig]

77. birth defects in iraq:

the issue is being studied (or at least studies were planned before this year's war) from 'nature' (one of the world's premier scientific journals):

"Iraqi scientists say that the use of depleted uranium during the 1991 Gulf War has led to an increased occurrence of at least six types of cancer, and to changes in their characteristics. Renal disease and congenital malformations have also increased, they claim.

. . . definitive answers could be difficult to obtain. An expert on depleted uranium at the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency says the situation in Iraq is an "epidemiological nightmare".

Not only is it unclear whether Iraq has a reliable basis for collecting health data, the expert says, but there are many possible agents that could influence health statistics in postwar Iraq, including poor nutrition and other contaminants left by the war, such as residues from burning oilfields . . ."

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v413/n6852/full/413097b0_fs.html

from what i know, "residues from burning oilfields" are an especially rich source of teratogens and likely to contribute to the observed birth defects.

also, it is possible that iraqi populations are predisposed to genetic disease. i haven't found any good studies on this point, but comparison with neighboring kuwait make this a reasonable supposition:

J Med Genet. 1994 Mar;31(3):224-33.

Autosomal recessive disorders among Arabs: an overview from Kuwait.

Teebi AS.

Department of Genetics, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut.

Kuwait has a cosmopolitan population of 1.7 million, mostly Arabs. This population is a mosaic of large and small minorities representing most Arab communities. In general, Kuwait's population is characterized by a rapid rate of growth, large family size, high rates of consanguineous marriages within the Arab communities with low frequency of intermarriage between them, and the presence of genetic isolates and semi-isolates in some extended families and Bedouin tribes. Genetic services have been available in Kuwait for over a decade. During this time it has become clear that Arabs have a high frequency of genetic disorders, and in particular autosomal recessive traits. Their pattern is unique and some disorders are relatively common. Examples are Bardet-Biedl and Meckel syndromes, phenylketonuria, and familial Mediterranean fever. A relatively large number of new syndromes and variants have been delineated in Kuwait's population, many being the result of homozygosity for autosomal recessive genes that occurred because of inbreeding. Some of these syndromes have subsequently been found in other parts of the world, negating the concept of the private syndrome. This paper provides an overview of autosomal recessive disorders among the Arabs in Kuwait from a personal perspective and published studies, and highlights the need for genetic services in Arab countries with the goal of prevention and treatment of genetic disorders.

[htuttle]

78. "Radiation, yes indeed. You hear the most outrageous lies about it. "

"Half-baked gogglebox do-gooders telling everybody it's bad for you. Pernicious nonsense! Everybody could stand a hundred chest X-rays a year. They oughta have them too. When they cancelled the project it almost did me in. One day my mind was literally bursting. The next day nothing, swept away. But I'll show them. I had a lobotomy in the end."
-- Dr. J. Frank Parnell, Repo Man

[Barrett808]

80. Eyes melt, skin explodes, everybody dead

So immoral working on it can drive you mad.

[JPace]

91. I fail to find any humor in this topic...

kind of like finding laughs in
getting cancer or visiting the
Viet Nam Memorial.

[htuttle]

93. Is it funny 'haha' or funny 'strange' *

that some people PERSISTENTLY and continually state that toxic sludge is good for us?


* or both, like a pig with wings

[eek]

96. are the symptoms like the "flulike"

illnesses that have been killing soldiers so "mysteriously'?

And what about the poor fellow who died of a heart attack an hour after he got home (about 2 weeks ago)?

Any similarities?

[David Zephyr]

107. Another Great Example of Compassionate Conservatism in Practice!

Cancer delivered to your doorstep, in a compassionate way, of course.