US attacked over green card soldiers

[Nambe]

Aljazeera.Net

Nearly 40,000 of America's frontline soldiers are not US citizens.

Many of the troops on duty in Iraq do not count English as their first language and would prefer to take orders in their native tongue ... usually Spanish.

The revelation has prompted British MP George Galloway, one of the fiercest critics of the invasion of Iraq, to accuse the US of using its "green card" troops as cannon fodder.

Galloway went on to attack the US policy of putting its poor minorities and non-citizens in the frontline of its foreign wars. ---

Swallow thy arrogant words, oh Pentagon!
Beware the brave Backlash
Of shock and awe
The fear laden memories of the dreaded Shaw
Once shielded by thy merciless sword.

Before lie the multitudes..Vengeful allies of the Dead.
At thine heal, the patient bearers of Truth and Justice
Seek thy head.

[Nottingham]

1. It is Awful I have to admit! But they had to get troops somewhere

:bounce: Its called hiring Mercenaries!

[saigon68]

21. OPEN THE PRISONS

Plenty of Killers there, Rapists too.

[NashVegas]

40. Our Own Imperial Sardaukar?

How fitting.

[Keithpotkin]

2. interesting...but needs an alternate source to back it up.

i dont know if i should buy it...:shrug:

[htuttle]

4. I don't have any links handy...

...But this isn't any secret.

I remember reading a story in LBN last month about a big citizenship ceremony they recently had for a bunch of these guys -- all official and on the up and up.

[alfredo]

6. It's true, we do offer citizenship to our mercenaries.

It is another form of outsourcing.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

12. The story came out quite a while ago...

I remember doing the math and the percentages of "green card" deaths campared to others was a bit higher than their waspish counterparts.

[htuttle]

3. Well, I suppose Hessians WERE cheaper

BTW, did I apparently fall into a portal to the 'Irony Universe' some time ago?

[Art_from_Ark]

18. Maybe King George promised his Hessian mercenaries British citizenship?

After all, George III was the grandson of George, Elector of Hanover, who had been invited to reign over England after Queen Anne died without a succcessor. So he knew a little about that himself.

Of course, Hessians were also attractive because many regular British troops were unwilling to shoot at fellow British subjects (as the colonists technically were until Cornwalis surrendered in 1781).

On a tangential subject, mercenaries of a sort were also used against Chinese pro-democracy demonstrators at Tiennamen Square. Even though they were members of the ironically-named People's Liberation Army, they were Mongolians who did not speak the local language (Mandarin) and were thus less sympathic to the pleas for mercy from their victims.

[twilight]

5. nothing new really

I know a guy that immigrated here in the mid 1950s from Europe and got the green card and shortly after that got drafted into the Korean War!

This has happened before and it is happening again now.

Nothing new here ....

:kick:

[5thGenDemocrat]

26. I was just going to say

That my great-grandfather Seaman immigrated here from Saskatchewan to fight the Spaniards. In 1898.
John
He got his citizenship (though he never got closer to the war than Tampa) and spent the rest of his life serving as Juvenile Court Probation Officer for Bay Country, Michigan. He was a pillar of the community and I'm named after him.

[leetrisck]

7. "bush" changed things not long ago

and told them if they joined the military they could get citizenship faster than normal. He even gave the citizenship oath to a wounded soldier at Walter Reed.

[hang a left]

28. link please to that story

[leetrisck]

38. Sorry, I can't provide it

Saw it at least twice on television news - once I think on CNN and once on MSNBC - very short - nothing dramatic. The one that stuck in my mind though was the day he went to Walter Reed for something, pinned purple hearts on some of our wounded and swore one soldier in as a citizen. There was a still shot of that. Only picture released that day, I believe. Sorry, I can't be more specific. Surely others saw this.

[Kucinich04]

8. And the problem would be...

Ya know, I'm all for blasting bush & co at every legitimate opportunity (there is no problem coming up with them), but I hate it when anybody (even shrubby) is unjustifiably verbally abused, as Galloway has unfortunately chosen to do here. I really think a constant screed, right or wrong, makes our 'real' issues seem like just "more of the same" political posturing (if we are lucky enough to get out 'issues' out there to the "American Idol" slurping sheeple of the USA at all) that seems to prevail in politics today. It is crying wolf, to some extent.

If there was a DRAFT, and it was provably true that minorities were being drafted in higher percentages, THEN this might be seen by people as an 'issue'. As long as service in the armed forces is voluntary, I don't see how anybody is going to have a problem with the racial makeup thereof.

Also, I believe that is the "Shah" of Iran, not Shaw
Just an FYI ;)

[twilight]

9. Shah of Iran is right

I remember the Shah of Iran only too well. He was hated by the Iranian people and can you blame them?

You are correct - these people are volunteers, not draftees like the person I know was. In fact, this person that I know told them to blow off when they asked for his passport, not that I blame him one bit and he was honorably discharged with medals, etc.

What a sick world ... and yeah Shah of Iran alright and don't forget it!

:kick:

[Pert_UK]

10. Operation "Get Behind the Darkies"....

Reminds me of South Park the movie, when the Army have strapped black soldiers to planes and the front of tanks as armour...

P.

[smallprint]

11. 40 thousand?!? can somebody back this up

with DOD stats? i'd like to know what the real numbers are

[realFedUp]

13. there around 200,000 Chinese soldiers ready to let go...

doesn't sound like our daddy's army....

[Sweetpea]

14. I think the number of green card holders means in the military

not necessarily are they all in Iraq. I read that somewhere but don't remember the source. I believe CNN.

[SoCalDem]

15. google green card soldiers and you get lots of articles..here's one

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&edition=us&q=green+card+soldiers&btnG=Google+Search


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm

Posted 4/8/2003 9:34 PM

Non-citizens fight and die for adopted country

By Valerie Alvord, special for USA TODAY


Patrick O'Day was born in Scotland. Francisco Martinez Flores was born in Mexico. Neither were U.S. citizens, but they died together in Iraq as U.S. Marines.At least seven U.S. servicemen killed in the Iraq war weren't citizens, the Defense Department says. They're among approximately 31,000 "green-card" soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen in the U.S. military. They're permanent legal residents but not U.S. citizens. Yet they chose to defend the country where they live.

Active duty

There are approximately 31,000 active-duty military personnel who are legal residents but not U.S. citizens. Branch of service:

Non-U.S. citizens Percent of total
Navy 15,880 4.2%
Marine Corps 6,440 3.8%
Army 5,596 1.2%
Air Force 3,056 0.8%

Source: Defense Department


The large number of non-citizens serving in the military may surprise many Americans. But non-citizen legal residents have long been able to serve in the military. They make up about 2% of the 1.4 million active-duty servicemembers. About a third come from Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries. The rest are from China, Vietnam, Canada, Korea, India and other countries.

Some of the families of these servicemen killed in the war in Iraq want them buried as citizens, which they can become if their families apply for it. "My son is dead, and I'm broken inside," says Jorge Rincon of Conyers, Ga. His son, Army Pfc. Diego Rincon, came to the USA from Colombia as a youngster. He was killed March 29 in a suicide bombing attack. His funeral is Thursday.

"The only thing that keeps me going now is to make sure that he's buried as an American," says Rincon. "That will be my dream come true."Other families feel the same and are taking advantage of a presidential order last year that allows relatives of slain troops to apply for posthumous citizenship. The gesture carries no additional financial benefits for surviving relatives.

The family of Marine Lance Cpl. Jesus Suarez Del Solar, 20, who was born in Mexico and moved with his family to Escondido, Calif., seven years ago, is expected to apply for posthumous citizenship.On Sunday, the Marine Corps presented Martinez Flores' family with his citizenship papers at their home in Duarte, Calif."If my brother hadn't gone over there, he would have been a citizen by now," says Nayeli Martinez, 19. "He and my mom and I all applied at the same time. Ours got processed faster than his. He had taken his citizenship test, and the only thing left was to take the oath in a formal ceremony. Before he could do that, he shipped out."


snip

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

16. Figure Of 37,401 In Al Jazeera Article Comes Directly From U.S. Congress

U.S. Congressional testimony mentioned this 37,401 figure quoted in the Al Jazeera article in proceedings in May, 2003. It doesn't say however that they are all in Iraq. It would be fiendishly clever, however, of the administration to use foreign troops in a U.S. war, as fewer American families or taxpaying, voting citizens would be up-in-arms over their deaths. This was one of the ideas behind the Foreign Legion, when it used to take foreign murderers and thieves and ask no questions. No one cries for a dead Legionnaire except for his fellow Legionnaires.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/frost050603.htm

[Big_Mike]

17. I was a recruiter in the late 80's...

and we took Green Card (Permanent Resident Status) applicants. As to front loading them over to Iraq, it ain't gonna happen. These folks have every kind of MOS out there. They are all enlisted, because you must be a citizen to be an officer. So the percentages I hear about how many have been killed or wounded is about right.

This isn't news. We have had Filipino's in the Navy for about a century. We took a lot of Nicaraguans in the 20's and 30's. We did offer them citizenship way back when, but only after 20 years of service. Now, if they are not a citizen at the end of either 6 or 8 years, they get the boot, and are tossed out.

[Art_from_Ark]

19. Of course, 100 years ago, Filipinos were under American sovereignty

and inducting them into the military was one means of assimilating them into the American culture.

[dArKeR]

20. My next door neighbor was a Mexican citizen who had joined the army

and went to Vietnam. He had great dreams of his future life and marriage. Then he stepped on a landmine and become wheelchair bound. (When he tells me the old stories I start crying and don't usually ask any questions, I just lisent. I don't know if the mine was ours or theirs.) We did many things together. Shopping, go out to eat... I realized how much of our cities weren't set up so well for people in chairs. He made a hoop in his backyard and we'd play. He was good enough to make a team in CA and they went to play in China, 1986 about.

He told me he developed a phobia for steps. Just at the sight of steps he'd get panicy.

So many dreams a young boy had.

I've read some posts up here that seem to dismiss this report as so what; it's not that many; history has been like this... Well I like the story and I hope it gets more circulation. I would guess many of the parents, direct families are not having their voices heard since they are outside of the U.S.

We have the responsibility of the United States Marine Corp. of the Internet:
To Stand Up For Those Who Cannot Stand Up For Themselves
To Defend Those Who Cannot Defend Themselves

[ikojo]

22. This is what Gangs of New York is about

In the movie, as hordes of Irish immigrants were getting off the boat in New York greeting them was a table to sign up and join the Union army. Of course the immigrant Irish had NO idea what they were fighting for, they were told it was the quickest way to citizenship.

The Irish riots were a reaction to the fact that those with money could pay $300 to keep their progeny from being drafted. Once working-class Irish got wind of this it angered them and the Irish riots were the result.

[californication]

23. This Guy does not have a Clue

I was in the Army for almost 8 years (1989-1997) and I witnessed many people get thier citizenship. None of which were in combat jobs. Most of the Spanish Speaking people that I knew were from Puerto Rico which technically are Americans.(I knew people from many different countries who also served) English is the offical language of the Armed forces. In order to serve in the armed forces you need to speak english. You are allowed to speak in your native tounge but only when you are not executing your mission or on duty. Since the military is so diverse if we did not settle on one language we would never be able to keep a clear line of communication. There are exceptions to this rule... Back in World War II we used the Navajo (code talkers) to fight japan. When are we going to finally say that we are Americans. These people are racists to assume that General Whitey is putting private joe minority on the front lines to take a bullet for Uncle Sam so the white man can thrive...

For the Last Time, we were not forced to join we WANT to join. We were not drafted and we know what we were getting into. I had no Idea that when I signed up that I would be shipped off to Desert Storm but I went because that is what I signed up for. You take the hand that is dealt to you and if it means dying for your country then so be it. If anybody had a problem with this then do not go into the military. The military's primary mission is to shoot, kill, mutilate and destroy the enemy.

To allow somebody to posthumously be buried as american citizen is an honor. Its a shame that these "Green Carders" realize what it means to give back to the country but these people that were born in the US take for granted all the freedoms that they have. If you love your freedom then thank a veteran.

[el_gato]

24. this war is not about giving us freedom

our troops are being sent over there to protect the ambitions of Halliburton and the PNAC gang. It has nothing to do with our freedom.

[californication]

25. Prove it

So its ok to let an evil dictator to commit genocide on his own people. And it is ok to let his sons rape little girls and feed their boyfriends to the lions? This guy is a bad as hilter. If the war was about oil we could have had all the oil fields years ago. Hmm I don't know about you but I paid 2.30 for a gallon of gas this morning. If it was about oil we could have our gas prices stabilized by now. Truth be told we need to get rid of people like him so that maybe one day the middle east will get stabilized (I won't see it in my lifetime) To minimize what my brothers-in-arms are doing is a travesty. Why don't you go over there and find out for yourself. There is a recruiting station in everytown.

[StandWatie]

29. oh horseshit..

the only "travesty" is that your "brothers-in-arms" are being horibly misused and you are there shouting about "hitler" (this is interesting in that you have to travel that far back in time to find someone actually worth fighting). The Shah made Saddam look like a humanitarian and no one ever, ever, suggested we do anything but throw more money at him.

This war is not about Iraqi's and it's not even exactly about oil (it plays a part, if things had went well and oil production wasn't being sabotaged the oil men would be making out right now regardless of what you pay at the pump), it was about getting the fuck out of Saudi Arabia without having to actually get out of the region altogether. You ate up a bunch of government propaganda and now you are going to tell other people they can't see what's in front of their eyes.

on edit: The "genocide" thing is interesting in that assuming you are talking about his handling of the Kurdish problem in that we just praised Turkey for it's "anti-terrorism" efforts that are completely similar to Saddam's differing only in that instead of one chemical weapon attack (Sarin or VX) it was hundreds or thousand using napalm.

[californication]

31. It all boils down to how you see it

I supported the US involvement in Somolia, Bosnia, Hati, Iraq, Kuwait, Panama regardless of who was our commander in chief. I witnessed first hand what these guys did to the people of kuwait. When the bullets start flying then all the other shit is meaningless. I support my people regardless what party is in power. I just think we need to be a little even handed when it comes to our troop involvement.(The white people in Bosnia is ok, but the Arabs in Iraq are not ok... It must be the political "IN" thing to do) Sure we are not saints either but when we go to fight we do not go to lose we go to win. We got rid of a dictator that should have been gone a long time ago. You make it seem as though OH... one gas attack is nothing. Sadaam did more than just one attack. You seem to be minimizing that just to prove a political point. But I disagree and I have bought in on what I saw firsthand back in Desert Storm I.

I challenge any one to go to Kuwait city then go to across the border into Iraq and see how Saddam treated his people.

[StandWatie]

32. I supported DS1

I think the international community should always respond in a militant manner to deny the legality of conquest. For the same reason I would support an international response to repel the US from Iraq.

[sushi]

30. Are you saying

Bush invaded Iraq because he loves the Iraqis?

[californication]

33. NO what I am saying

is Bush 1 took action, Clinton took action, and Bush 2 took action. All three are different people that chose different roads to take in dealing with the leadership of Iraq. Bush 2 used a more radical approach but as commander in chief that is his call and the military has to support that regardless of how they feel. Nobody wants combat but we as soldiers are obligated to do what we signed up to do.
That area of the world is one of the most repressive and oppressive places that I have ever seen. In saudi they invited us to see the public excecutions. I refused..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. Maybe seeing a few more places would alter your opinion

As for proving the claim that this war was to enrich Halliburton I feel this HAS been proven by the following:

Special Report
Advisors of Influence: Nine Members of the Defense Policy Board Have Ties to Defense Contractors


By André Verlöy and Daniel Politi
Data by Aron Pilhofer


Of the 30 members of the Defense Policy Board, the government-appointed group that advises the Pentagon, at least nine have ties to companies that have won more than $76 billion in defense contracts in 2001 and 2002. Four members are registered lobbyists, one of whom represents two of the three largest defense contractors.

RELATED LINKS
Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee members
Corporate Affiliations of Defense Policy Board Members

The board’s chairman, Richard Perle, resigned yesterday, March 27, 2003, amid allegations of conflicts of interest for his representation of companies with business before the Defense Department, although he will remain a member of the board. Eight of Perle’s colleagues on the board have ties to companies with significant contracts from the Pentagon.

Members of the board disclose their business interests annually to the Pentagon, but the disclosures are not available to the public. “The forms are filed with the Standards of Conduct Office which review the filings to make sure they are in compliance with government ethics,” Pentagon spokesman Maj. Ted Wadsworth told the Center for Public Integrity.


http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=513&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0

Those that vetted this war and are now backtracking on the proof of their claims have indeed profitted handsomely in the form of non bidded contracts done in closed door security meetings.

[californication]

35. If these contracts were not competed before awarded

Then they need to take measures to punish the people involved but realistically speaking I do not think anything is going to happen to any company who has a lobby up there. Look at Computer Science Corporation and the Debacle with the IRS. Look at lockheed, boeing, all of these companies have their hand in the congressional cookie jar. So I am not surprised by what you posted. These companies buy them a politician and they (politicians) will not bite the hands to feed them. When I was discussing war I was commenting on WAR in General terms and the soldiers who are called to duty.

The original topic I was commenting on was the simple fact that the Military is a non-conformist body of people which no matter what corruption is taking place at the helm, we still have to fight and keep our political opinions to ourselves. (It has been known for years that non-citizens can sign up and get on the fast track to getting naturalized). America is a great country and everyone that becomes a citizen deserves a fair deal. If they choose to join the military then they have all of my support. And when they get out they have my support as a veteran. If they die as a result of their service, then they needed to be afforded the same rights as the citizens they fought beside.

[californication]

36. I really need to start proofreading before I post....

This looks horrible and I apologize.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. No worries and I don't disagree with your positions re: the military

and citizenship but I do think they are earning themselves a place on the front lines.

The situation should not surprise you BUT FOR THE FOLLOWING:

It is one thing to have lobbyists who jockey for their clients. That is FAR different from an organization such as the DEFENSE POLICY BOARD which is no more than a lobbyist but is paraded as a quazi-government operation. This is the TEAPOT dome scandal all over again only several times over in terms of impact.

[haymaker]

39. Where were you and all the other protectors on 9/11

soldier boy? Couldn't even jump a jet. They crashed a plane into the Pentagon for fuck's sake.

You guys aren't protecting shit. You're causing it. We will be paying the price for this debacle for generations.

Re-enlist and get your ass back over there and protect our freedom.

[californication]

43. Unfortunately

I am a disabled veteran and I can not physically perform my duties as a soldier. So in 97 I had to start over from scratch jet a job and adjust to this world we call civilian life. There is nothing romantic about being in the Middle East. If I could reenlist and get back on that jet I would because I miss my friends and I miss the sense of belonging to such a fine organization as the United States Army. The Armed forces has nothing to do with today's current events we get our marching orders from above and as most soldiers know that shit flows down hill. After we get our marching orders we excecute them to the best of our ability.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

42. The last war our Vets fought in that had ANYTHING to do with

protecting American freedom was WWII. I hugged my father and grandfather many times.

I am filled with sorrow for the others who have died in politically or economically driven wars that have dotted our history since then.

I had a lot of friends come back from Nam in body bags or a condition that they weren't in when they left. War IS hell and should NOT be romanticized. It's people killing people and America has prooven that it's the best at killing people. We lost 3000 CITIZENS on 9-11 to al Qaeda, NOT SADDAM. We bombed Afghanistan and waved our hats in the air. Al Quaeda and its leader survived so America decided that Saddam was a threat and bombed a starving nation halfway back to the stone age with very little resistance from this heinous country and "evildoer" which was supposed to be this terrible threat to the free world.

I have friends in the ME now. Of course, they are brass and are running things from Kuwait and don't have to worry that much about RPG's, mines and breathing in particles of depleated uranium. But the guts of the services, the EMs get to do the dirty work. Most of these kids joined because it was a job. It offered health and education bene's they couldn't get in the private sector. They are/were good people who were killed and are in harm's way because of a corrupt political system. I love them all, but they have nothing to do with the freedom here in America.

[happyslug]

27. So this is nothing new

In the time period between the American Revolution and WWI during peacetime the US Army was overwhelming non-US citizens (Except during wartime when it became overwhelming US Citizen for example The WAr of 1812, the Mexican War,The Civil War, the Spainish-American War and WWI and WWII). After the Civil War indepentent observers of the US Army said the Army was about 2/3 non-native, while the US army said it was no more than 1/2 non-native born during this time period (The difference is that the foriegn observers observations were based on the all-whilte units, while the US Army counted the Black units with the Whites to get the 1/2 native born figure).

As to the US Navy, prior to the Civil War, except for the Marines, the crews were overwhelming Non-native. During and after the Civil War the Navy recruited a large number of blacks into its enlisted ranks (This ended in the 1890s do to fear that native born whites would not serve with blacks in the same rank. This lead to the replacement of the black crews of the Post-Civil War era to the almost all white crews of WWI and WWII).

My point is the US Military has a long history of hiring mercenaries, and does not care if their are foriegn born or not. The real issue is NOT that we are using non-natives in the US Military, but what would be the limit? (This is related to the fear of Ancient Rome, i.e. when the Army differs from the people, and what is good for the people is NOT good for the Army, will the Government do waht is good for the Army or the People? This delimma does NOT occur in universal Service armies for the people and the Army are the same, but when you go with mercenaries this problem does appear. Rome's fall can be explained in that when that dispute occurred the Government for fear of the Army, backed the Army over the people. The people then withdrew their support for the Government and both the Government and Army fell. This took centuries to unfold, but it did in the Fifth Centruy AD (and the best explanation of why the Eastern Empire Survived while the Western Empire fell is becasue the in the East the people still supported the Government, in the West the People stopped and backed the Barbarian invaders who gave the people what the people needed.

Thus the delimma is NOT that we have foriegn mercenaries but does this reflect a military that will choose to protect itself over the Country? Mercenaries tend to do that, they want paid.

[Kellanved]

41. So what? Foreign Legion

What's wrong with that? :shrug:

Call them Légion étrangèr