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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:22 PM
Original message
Gunmen give Iraq's top Shiite cleric 48 hours to leave
Gunmen in the holy city of Najaf have surrounded the house of Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Iraq's leading Shiite cleric, and ordered him to leave the country, a cleric in Kuwait told AFP on Sunday.

"Armed groups in Najaf... are threatening Imam Sistani... and demanding he leave Iraq within 48 hours," Mohammed Baqr Musawi al-Muhri said in a statement.

"This group rallied yesterday (Saturday) in front of Imam Sistani's house, shouting 'Live, Live al-Sadr,' and demanding Sistani leave."

A statement issued by the al-Khoei Foundation, which the slain cleric headed in the British capital for the previous 12 years, accused "agents of the dictatorial regime now on its deathbed in Iraq" of being behind the assault....There had been speculation that Khoei, who had called for Shiite cooperation with the United States, had gone back to Najaf with help from US forces, and that his return signaled a US attempt to promote a "pro-American" current among Iraq's majority Shiite community as Saddam's regime collapsed.


http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/breakingnews/view.asp?msgID=942
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GainesT1958 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Boy the Baathists really have their fellow Sunnis...
Out in force and well-organized for this one, don't they?

Easier to see how they can blow up oil pipelines and water mains when they can get away with stuff like THIS! Soooo much for that "great control" and "cooperative population" we've got, huh? :eyes:

B-)




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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sistani is a big time collaborator

In the coming days and weeks, I think we will see a lot of Sunni-Shia cooperation against the Crusaders and their collaborators.

boosh, you see, is a uniter ;)
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. how so? (Sistani as a collaborator)
Edited on Tue Sep-02-03 12:14 AM by Aidoneus
besides Sayyid al-Sistani's notable passivity in response to the invasion and occupation which he officially opposes--and it's that passivity to the occupation that the Sadrists are probably tee'd off at (though ironically Sadr himself always huffs at the question of armed resistance, and owes his position to being ignored/tolerated by the invaders)--, the only 'collaboration' of Sistani I can recall is some lie & forgery from this same Khoei Foundation, lying about a fatwa they said he issued.

Of course, in time cooperation in resistance to the occupation will eventually cross all imaginary ethnic/sectarian lines (provided the invader doesn't deliberately set people off against another, in typical "divide et impera" colonialist strategy), as it did the last time some "Western" country thought it a bright idea to try and colonize Iraq..
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. ah yes..
We will unite Iraq and end the civil war essentially the way it was ended by the Israeli's in Lebanon: By becoming so noxious and viscious that sworn bitter enemies unite to expel us.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Those are Shias, from Sadr city slum (formerly Saddam city)
they were anti-Saddam from before the murder of Ayatollah Sadr. The late ayatollah's son, an Iman, is the leader of a Shia faction that opposes the US occupation.

We are about to get a taste of what the US Marines got in Beirut!

Don't mess with the Shias. Their branch of Islam was born out of a power struggle after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Unto His Name, which resulted in the murder of their leader and founder Ali, who is buried in Najaf.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Are you saying that these are not Sunni people
but Shites, which would mean that both Sunni and Shite believers are against the U.S., even though they used to be against each other?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. These are Shias from Sadr city
they formed their militia right after the fall of Saddam.

What we got here is a power struggle between Shia factions.

I smell civil war in the air....
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Indeed, My Hoosier Friend
What we have here is a struggle between Shi'ite factions. It seems likely to me the Najaf outrage, too, was committed by a Shi'ite faction, though some with a romantic glaze in their eyes are sure to the point of humor that would be impossible.

The result will be a civil war between Shi'ite factions, over the issue of collaboration with the occupation. During it, both sides will seek increased popular support by attacks against U.S. and other coalition forces.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I don't think it's certain..
a number of people wanted him dead and a ton or so of RDX has a familiar ring from Saudi black ops. They have a vested interest in not seeing someone from a party called "Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution" way, way far away from any lever of power in the north.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. It Is Not Certain, Sir, True
But that would be the end of a wager at even odds my currency would cover, were such on offer.

Your surmise, too, makes a good deal of sense. So far, reports concerning the bomb itself have been contradictory, ranging from low grade explosives to bundled munitions, by my reading, anyway.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. these particular ones, I dont know, but in the larger pic, yes

Sunnis and Shias will work together to rid their country of the Crusaders. You will get to be a witness to history.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. An older story about Iman Sadr
With anger at the US-led occupation spilling onto the streets, more than 1,000 demonstrators rallied Sunday in Najaf and planned to march on a US base near the city in support of cleric Moqtada Sadr, a fiery critic of the occupation.

Chanting "No, no to America! No, no to the arrogant!" the protesters rallied outside Najaf's main mosque, the tomb of imam Ali and one of the holiest sites in Shiite Islam, dressed in white robes and wearing green headbands.

"We are the followers of Sadr!" they chanted, beating their chests, punching their fists in the air and carrying banners depicting Sadr's father, assassinated by agents of Saddam Hussein in 1999.

Sadr, who has seen his popularity rocket in the chaos and power vacuum of post-war Iraq, said that US troops had besieged his home on Saturday after he gave an outspoken sermon Friday lambasting the coalition.

The cleric's spokesman, Mustafa Yaqubi, said Sunday that a crowd of demonstrators had marched on the US base oustside the town late Saturday and that they had met a senior US officer who had apologised for the incident.

http://www.independent-bangladesh.com/news/jul/21/21072003ap.htm
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. more on Sadr, his father, and other things I've learned as yet
Edited on Tue Sep-02-03 04:01 AM by Aidoneus
A bit long and very, very unorganized, corrections are much appreciated. Some of this was difficult to piece together due to certain contradictions that come up between the various accounts (some of the more common mistakes in the western press are most misleading and shallow, though the Arab/Iranian & Islamic sources were also a bit muddled on certain facts), and I'm somewhat embarassed to say that one of the better sources for a portion of what I refer to here was a website co-run by a figure that I dislike very, very much. (though the author of the piece also wrote a similar article for a paper I do like however, though it wasn't as detailed, so it's not all bad on that note..)

From what I've found, Muqtada Sadr's father, Sayyid Mohammed Sadiq al-Sadr, doesn't seem as much the figure of resistance that he's made out to be, at least not until later in his life. Sadr & the Sadrists/Sadriyun now make him out to be one, though in theall-cynic lense that I view the world through I suspect that is so he/they can use his famous family name to get themselves on the dance floor in this semi-vaccuum. Parts of his father's history suggests a bit different story from what I have read of him, though Sadiq al-Sadr's followers seem quite exclusively devoted to him and his line regardless..

Even while the fathers' cousin, the geniunely legendary Grand Ayatallah Sayyid Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr, was a pillar among the Shia political/religious empowerment and resistance to the ruling elite and its oppression of the Shia communities, Sadiq al-Sadr was not known for involvement in this movement in opposing the Baathist ruling elites, despite being arrested on a couple occasions (probably due to his family lineage, the Sadrs being one of the more powerful extended families among Iraqi Shias). Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr is remembered as Shahid al-Sadr among his followers and considered as important a figure in his day as Khomeini or Fadlallah are in Iran and Lebanon respectively, though the cousin Sadiq al-Sadr was apparently not active in that period despite the oppressive policies of the statist ruling elite against the Shia Islamic movements and communities.

In the period after the '91 uprising, the Baathists realized well enough they needed to court at least some section of the Shias to stay afloat--Mohammed Sadiq al-Sadr was more or less their proxy to do so, and the Baathists recognized his position as the new Grand Ayatallah of Iraq after the execution of the previous man in the position (Sayyid Abul al-Qassim al-Khoei is the father of Abdul-Masjid al-Khoei, who was cut to death just a few months ago, due either to his blatent collaboration with the murderous US/UK invaders or for appearing with a Shia religious scholar known as a Baathist collaborator, or both?--the dust cloud hasn't cleared on even that months afterward, on a similar note it may be quite some time before it is clearly known who martyred SAIRI's Hakim recently).

Though I doubt the relationship was without conflict, it wasn't until his last couple years in the position before being martyred by the Baathists (the 7th Grand Ayatallah to receive such a fate in the last couple decades) that Sadr's father showed any independent streak or resistance with respect to the statist elite, which naturally gained some of his reverence today. Mohammed Sadiq al-Sadr as the recognized Grand Ayatallah of Iraq was somewhat useful to the Baathists for a few years and in return he gained influence among the Shias of parts of Baghdad (who now refer to their community as 'Sadr City' in his name) and the Shiite rural tribals (a tough nut to crack for both the Baghdad ruling establishment and the Najafi Shia Hawza before that) through large scale charity work and other such social welfare services and energetic teaching--the same influence his son is now cashing in on and plays off against his peers and rivals, though he is not alone in claiming his father's legacy.

Of the great mass of political/religious strength created by the movement Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr was responsible for, neither Muqtada or his father are the visible inheritors. After his execution in the early 80s, sections of Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr's al-Daawa movement began to gravitate more towards the umbrella organization SAIRI and the now-martyred Grand Ayatallah Sayyid Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim--who himself was a member of Sadr's al-Daawa movement before forming the SAIRI as an umbrella organization of many Iraqi Islamic and revolutionary parties (being a merging of many movements and organizations, and a popular figure, that explains a bit how he can overnight draw 300,000 to mourn his martyrdom). It amuses me a bit to see much the same rightwing and centrist/liberal establishment journals & commentators who reviled Hakim a few months ago as a terrorist extremist with little backing, now referring to him as a beloved moderate with tons of supporters.

Muqtada himself is not as high ranking of a religious scholar as those he thumbs his nose at--them scholars and jurists of the rank of Ayatallah, and him the lower position of hojjatolleslam--, though he aspires to be one. On such matters he recognized an exiled Iraqi Ayatallah still staying in Iran named Kazim al-Haeri (which is ironic for Sadr also thumbs his nose at the "exiles" like Baqir al-Hakim), though I have read second-hand from an Iranian page that this is not the case any longer and Ayatallah al-Haeri backs an ex-associate of Sadr's, Sheikh Yaqubi, instead. His draw seems to be from the oppressed class loyal to the legacy of his father, and also the youth, being somewhere between 20 & 30 himself (claims to this vary quite widely) and his behavior/positions/tone reflects that (though youth is not necessarily so much an issue for stature as knowledge of the laws and justice in applying them are--for instance, Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr reached his distinguished position at 22yrs old or so). He runs the Sadrist movement from a Najaf office near the Imam Ali mosque (according to a note in passing in an article I read on the recent blast, his office was damaged by the bomb that martyred Hakim). From this Najafi office he directs the movement in 'Sadr City' and elsewhere, and is able to do so mainly through the fact that he's ignored/tolerated by the occupation forces as yet. Though he has met with the Iranians at a rememberance of Khomeini in June, and there are some images of Khomeini around Sadr City, some of the Sadriyun are said to have an anti-Iranian view and want to both make Najaf the centre of Shiism (at the expense of Iran's Qom) and remove the Iranian influences currently in the Najafi hawza (that's apparently the basis for the stance here against the Persian-born Sistani, self-serving as it may be). Sadr doesn't seem to like the Kuwaiti rulers much either, issuing a fatwa against business with them some time ago.

Despite his obvious opposition to the occupation and the puppet council which the CPA formed as a facade to the neocolonial rule over Iraq, both of which he is well known to speak adamantly against (perhaps too well known, for such singular coverage is oversimplifying and typical of the lazy statist ideologues in western/US press), he has a so-far constant dismissive response to the idea of armed resistance to the US/UK occupation, preferring non-violent means of resisting to it for the time being (probably to solidify their fairly shaky political grounding in the new semi-vaccuum, and realizing it's something of a "how quickly do I want to be martyred" question for such leaders at the current time), and not in my opinion a likely candidate to be among the first major Shia leaders to begin armed resistance. However, if the occupation forces begin to get paranoid at growing tension (as I suspect is a certainty in the environment now after Hakim's martyrdom), he may be targetted as such at some point just because he is a visible semi-opposition figure and if things get bad the US/UK occupation forces will basically just be lashing out blindly and taking out any visible figures they can find (as per Israel's approach to Lebanon, and it brought the invaders only increased resistance and eventual defeat--I don't think any of the naive/optimistic fools running this crusade have learned a thing from history, and are rather bent on repeating every mistake of the Crusades, Beirut, Grozny, Gaza and Britain's failed adventure in Iraq decades ago--though unlike Churchill I really hope we don't break out the poison gas in time).

A former associate of his, Sheikh Yaqubi, recently queitly established his own movement called al-Fadilah after breaking off from Sadr, in part as a rival to Moqtada over the Sadriyun movement and also to resist the American occupation. I say quiety, because aside from an interesting but short reference or two in passing and an Asia Times piece, this figure is difficult to find information on but seems like a potentially notable fellow as time goes on. Sheikh Yaqubi is a student of Sadr's father and apparently the preferred choice of that exiled Ayatallah al-Haeri. But in another article (that Asia Times piece on Yaqubi) I read that his supporters condemn Haeri for his support of Sadr.--A bit of what I meant on how things are difficult to keep up with/sort out!

In response to the original post, I don't notice any mention of Sunnis or Baathists mentioned here.. it seems to be the Sadrists, who are accused (I don't think it was found to be proven or disproven either way) of hassling Sistani at least once before, ended when he had supporters of his among the Shia tribes come to his defense and the threat dissipated. Sadrists are also accused--again I say accused, for it has not been proven or disproven either way--of being behind the hit on Sayyid Abdel-Masjid al-Khoei. Sadr himself commented on this and blamed Sheikh al-Yaqubi, and claims to have expelled him from his movement for it; I haven't read a comment from or about Yaqubi elsewhere with respect to this, though Yaqubi has other explanations for the falling out, along with the couple other contradictory references I can find involving it, and some contradictory references with respect to the Haeri endorsement/falling out/whatever.

The Persian Sistani represents more the Shia establishment, much older than Sadr and more respected generally, also as yet a remarkably passive figure (though he's officially against the invasion, the occupation, and opposes a US-dominated gov't over Iraq). Don't see exactly how he could be called a collaborator (with exception to the fake fatwa the Khoei Foundation forged in his name), except maybe his passiveness in general.. rather than 'collaborating', he's perhaps among others in just waiting to see how things turn out and consolidate their organizations. Moving against the invaders now may not necessarily be as productive as when they can do so from a position of strength.

Since this is long and off the subject enough already, I think as long as the US/UK act as something of a lightning rod for the violent resistance (and provided Sadr doesn't get too openly pissy about the power struggles), the only area I would guess to be really dangerous for civil/ethnic war is in the north, with the Arabs/Turcomens/Turkey & the Kurds(/US?). Sort of 'low-intensity' at the moment, but a Kurdish paper claims the Arab al-Obeid tribe are talking to Turkey about their common dislike of what the Kurds & Americans are doing (WRT the latter, that being arresting their Sheikh, a leader of the 1,000,000-strong extended tribal grouping). If that blows up it probably won't stay just with northern Iraq and 'South Kurdistan', but to the north as well (Turkish-occupied Kurdistan).

As far as the Hakim murder goes, I don't really have an idea.. except I think StandWatie is on to something thinking maybe the Saudis or Kuwaitis, and I think of his as better informed than I on things. I guess by nature they don't exactly dig what Hakim stands for (them being power-loving decadent hypocrites after all, and another "Islamic Revolution", or an IR-lite, nearby would probably be a "bad influence" to their own rule).. :shrug: The argument in favour of the US being directly behind it is mprobable to me, though through the lack of such a strong figure of leadership in the Shias the occupation forces benefit the most, as well as the client states that make up Iraq's neighbors--a splintered and insecure state does quite a bit towards justifying a continued presence of the army and colonial satrap Bremer. A stable self-governing Iraqi system with benefits for Iraqis in mind--(as opposed to Western corporations that will inevitably try to take over many profitable industries, using the army to secure their hold)--would begin to ask the invaders why they're still hanging around, an instable place swallows pride and begs the invader for security. That is in the long term, for short term there is no such benefit and that's why I think of it in that sense as improbable.

BUT--if you look at the CPA's website (and I did earlier to look up a few of their decrees so far), you get the idea that everything is going just fantastic and all according to the plans of our brilliant strategists back in the homeland, Saddam is behind everything bad happening anywhere. God Bless Dear Leader Bush.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. This can't be a current story
It says, "Pro-Western Iraqi Shiite leader Sayyed Abdul Majid al-Khoei was assassinated in Najaf on Thursday." But al-Khoei was killed back in April.

And it also speaks of al-Hakim as if he were still alive.

I don't know what is going on here -- but I tend to doubt that any of the events mentioned in the story are current.

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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. good point
Edited on Tue Sep-02-03 03:27 AM by Aidoneus
it does seem to be an article from that time and not of a recent event..

great, now my post above will end up in a locked thread. :cry:
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. This is weird, here's the story of this story

There was a story about threats against Sistani on a website I can't post here, that did refer to the recent bombing of the Ali Mosque and Hakim's death.

I couldn't post that story, or a link to the website, but I thought it was significant, if predictable, that Sistani was now getting threats.

So I poked around, looking for a source I could post, and found this. The date on the link is Sept 2, 2003, but the story is clearly old.

I don't have an explanation for why Arab Times would post this, unless they too were looking for something to say about Sistani being threatened, and they didn't want to post that other website, either!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Those Shias that remained in Iraq, are resentful of the exiles
that are calling for accommodation with the American occupation. Nothing surprising here! This was predicted before the war by antiwar activists.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. I would fight to the death any foreign invader
even one that ousted the Bush regime.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I would be fighting right along side of you n/t
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. thought that "48 hours to leave" was shrub's line (Iraq, Liberia, etc.)
nt
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Sweetpea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. More troops won't be enough to fight a civil war and anti american
sentiment.....we are screwed.
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