PAUL HILL (Doctor Killer) EXECUTED

[matcom]

CNN Announced just now

executed in killing of 'family planning' doctor (MY words)

just reporting.

[Dookus]

1. While I abhor that arrogant bastard...

it's still a sad day when the state uses its power to murder its citizens.

He should've spent his life in a jail cell.

[onehandle]

2. Now's a good time to show some dignity. nt

nt

[Iverson]

37. agreed

also n/t

[ewagner]

3. Sorrow

I don't like the death penalty and I feel sorrow that it was carried out.

His death will not bring back the Doctor he killed or his bodyguard.

[samsingh]

29. no - but it is the correct thing to do

i don't buy the argument that it won't bring someone back. That is not the only reason for punishment to be meted out.

[stevedeshazer]

46. Who will it bring back, then? n/t

[Catch22Dem]

4. Yeah

I don't revel in anyone's death but this fucker stated repeatedly he had no remorse. Good riddance I say.

Shows the lengths to which people will go in the name of religion.

[zonmoy]

8. yeah

Unfortanately, he also talked about becoming a martyr. I figure that there will be more attacks on clinics by the religious right nutcases that will say that they are being done in honor of their new martyr/saint.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

18. Who mentioned FreeRepublic?

Certainly not the poster you were replying to. I went there, I saw that there were pretty civil posts. For now. Let's hope it stays that way. (For all we know, of course, the pro-Hill posts are deleted, to make them look civil.)

[Aidoneus]

20. I looked at their thread while I was looking for something else

most have the same "rot in hell" tone people here do, a couple think he's with "God" now because he read a Bible all day.

[ldf]

32. and yes, according to him, he will go straight to heaven

.....just like all those 9-11 hijackers believed they were going straight to heaven.

and unfortunately the fundies do not have a clue of the similarities between them, and the taliban.

[Catch22Dem]

74. Thanks for going there

Because that's exactly where I was headed. My dad and I got in this discussion the other day. American Christians are running parellel with Arab Muslims, yet they don't seem to realize it. Personally, I think they're both friggin whacky (equally) but no one listens to me. One day, when I rule the world, I'll make religion illegal.

[MaverickX]

5. I support the death penalty..

And I don't feel sorrow for Paul Hill. The guy didn't even show remorse. This is a prime case for capital punishment.

[MuseRider]

6. I fail to see how

state killing is less bad than any other kind of killing. I hate this, it doesn't change a thing, the Dr. is still dead and we feed our society with a lust for bloody (or bloodless) vengence.

[MaverickX]

15. it shouldn't be about vengeance..

It's about restitution. However, we could use your argument against locking criminals up too. What's the difference between me locking someone in my closet and the state locking them in jail? The point is the collective has given the government a monopoly on making laws and punishing those who break the laws. Individuals don't have the same exact powers and responsibilities the government has. States killing isn't necessarily the same as individuals doing it, we don't have that authority. Unless you're an anarchist you have to cede the fact that government requires certain powers we don't give individuals.

[MuseRider]

23. Of course you are right

and I knew the minute I posted this someone would nail me on it. It is a very emotional thing for me, for many of us, and it becomes hard for me to get into arguements over this. Maybe this is one area I should not comment on. Thanks. I will read on and try to learn.

[stevedeshazer]

47. Who is 'restituted'

and not "vengeanced" when we (the government) kill someone?

[MaverickX]

63. basically society gets restitution..

If someone vandalizes your home and causes $1000 worth of damages they should pay you a restitution of $1000. If someone intentionally takes your life they should arguably forfeit their own life. Putting someone to death for brutally murdering another isn't that outrageous in my opinion.

[NNN0LHI]

64. Of course not. Unless you don't mind becoming a murderer too

Which seems not to bother you.

Don

[MaverickX]

66. not all killing is murder...

Murder is the unlawful taking of an innocent human life with malice and aforethought. There is no malice involved with using death as a punishment, hence the state is required to use the most painless method available. What about capital punishment makes it necessarily unlawful?

[NNN0LHI]

70. For a clue read post #55

Don't think this kind of thing has stopped and is also not prevalent in other police departments, because you are wrong if you do. These are just some of the guys who got caught. Because you don't want to admit it doesn't mean that its not true.

Don

[Proud_American]

25. It does change one very important thing

He's not around any more to break out of jail (or be freed on some stupid technicality) and kill another innocent person, like you or I. F--k him. Good riddance. Better that we pay for his room and board for the rest of his life? I don't think so.

edited for spelling

[lfairban]

36. I feel compelled to point out the shortcomings in your argument.

Very few prisoners break out of jail. His violence was not indiscriminant but targeted so if you don't work in an abortion clinic, you have little to worry about. The extra cost of a death penalty case is greater than the room and board.

I am against the death penalty, particularly the way it is implemented here in Ohio, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for this person.

[samsingh]

30. state killing is in response to a crime

and the an unprovoked attack.

[Chovexani]

7. I am against the death penalty

He should have rotted in a jail cell, not made a martyr to his sick ass cause.

Now that the deed is done, though, here's hoping he really does find a "reward" but not the one he wanted...the word Tartarus leaps to mind.

[Catch22Dem]

11. See, I must politely disagree

We spend WAAAAAY too much on maintaining prisoners in this country. Why let this guy be a burden on the tax payers? Now, if we ran our prisons the way other countries did, then I'd have a different opinion. See, in America, no one "rots" in a cell. No, they get an education, internet, cable-tv, 3 meals per day, a gym, etc... No thanks. This guy didn't deserve U.S. prison.

[joshcryer]

14. Most prison money is being wasted.

On drug-related 'crimes' and non-violence criminal behavior. Let out these people and you'll have more than enough room to contain the crazies.

Note that the death penality, historically, hasn't killed more than those who go to prison for other crimes, so the argument that the death penality helps cull populations is defunct.

Perhaps you'll be arguing now that the death penality needs to be more efficient. Others certainly will.

[FiveGoodMen]

24. Wow. A US prison must be a great place to live

Does that mean that if you were unjustly convicted of something and forced to live in jail, you'd think how cushy it was ... and be glad?

[mac56]

43. I most politely disagree, in turn.

It costs far more to execute a prisoner than to lock him/her up for life.

[KaraokeKarlton]

65. Do you have any idea how much it costs per day to house a prisoner?

If they participate in prison programs often required by the judge it can cost over $1500 a day per prisoner to house them. This is for minimum security, too. The appeals are going to be filed regardless of whether a prisoner is on death row or regular population. Those costs aren't going to be prevented by stopping capital punishment. However, keeping a diabolical killer locked up for life IS expensive, more expensive than executing them, because they would STILL be appealing and bogging up the court system plus the other costs without the appeals. Most people have no idea how much it costs to keep someone locked up.

[stevedeshazer]

49. It costs more to execute than to imprison

The Death Penalty is Expensive.
Capital punishment is a far more expensive system than one whose maximum penalty is
life in prison.

A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life
imprisonment.
In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life
imprisonment.
Studies in California, Kansas, Maryland, and North Carolina all have concluded that capital
punishment is far more expensive than keeping someone in prison for life.

The greatest costs of the death penalty are incurred prior to and during trial, not in
post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings were abolished, the
death penalty system would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.

Under a death penalty system, trials have two separate phases (conviction and sentencing);
they are typically preceded by special motions and extra jury selection questioning.
More investigative costs are generally incurred in capital cases, particularly by the
prosecution.
When death penalty trials result in a verdict less than death or are reversed, the taxpayer
first incurs all the extra costs of capital pretrial and trial proceedings and must then also pay
either for the cost of incarcerating the prisoner for life or the costs of a retrial (which often
leads to a life sentence).

The death penalty diverts resources from genuine crime control measures. Spending
money on the death penalty system means:

Taking it away from existing components of the criminal justice system, such as
prosecutions of drug crimes, domestic violence, and child
Reducing the resources states put into crime prevention, education and rehabilitation,
investigative resources, and drug treatment programs.


"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens
of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of
millions of dollars on a statewide basis." --Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California
Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999

source: http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

[mac56]

53. Thanks, Stevie D!

I was looking for that link earlier.

[NNN0LHI]

55. Some peoples pat answer to that is "well then don't give them all ...

...of those costly appeals that can take 10 years to process". Kill them after a year. Thats all they deserve.

To that answer I say bullshit. Here in Illinois using DNA we found that 13 out of 25 men sitting on our death row for almost ten tears were innocent. We had policemen who were using torture to extract confessions from innocent men. Some of these men were just weeks away from being murdered using our tax dollars in the name of justice. With the kill them in a year logic Illinois would have murdered 13 innocent men in my name. If you don't believe me look what you get when you cut and paste this: chicago police+torture+typewriter cover into Google. Here is what you get: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=chicago+police%2Btorture%2Btypewriter+cover+&btnG=Google+Search

I followed many of these very cases from arrest to trial and I was convinced they were all guilty when their sentences were handed down. How wrong I was. How many people do you think have recieved the death penalty who were actually innocent in past years?

Don

[joshcryer]

57. HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

HOLY!

Shit, before I was convinced that a slow, long, costly appeals process was necessary, just to make sure, but HOLY FUCKING SHIT, is that totally fucking confirmed here or WHAT? HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

Most people probably look at me and say calm down, but HOLY FUCKING SHIT. 13 out of 25 is HUGE. That's worse than 50%! The appeals process is wrong if even 1% of the innocent die, but we're talking potentially 50%!

It needs to be slower, longer, and cost even more!

[MaverickX]

71. if this is the case

Why even lock any criminal up? You miss the difference between factual innocence and legal innocence as well. Alot of the people released from death row were released on technicalities. At any rate, if you think that many people are being framed for murder why not just let everyone out of prison?

[NNN0LHI]

72. We can let someone out of prison if they are later found to be innocent

Try bringing an innocent dead man or woman back to life after they have been executed once. Is that real difficult for you to comprehend?

Don

[MaverickX]

73. yep but still...

If that many people are just innocent people being set-up why have faith in any conviction? Getting a conviction isn't as easy as you make it seem.

[stevedeshazer]

76. I am well aware of this story

but I did not know the detail provided in your link. Thanks.

If even one...even one...innocent person is executed, none of us is safe. Why don't people get that?

[MaverickX]

17. it doesn't matter..

Charles Manson wasn't put to death and he still has a following. Same thing with Paul Hill.

[Booberdawg]

9. I also support the death penalty

But I don't think it's cause for celebration when it's carried out.

[samsingh]

31. agreed that it's not a cause for celebration

but the death penalty was appropriate for his crimes. That's because we put value on innocent life.

[goobergunch]

10. Reuters LINK

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3383162

[AWD]

12. Welcome to Hell

Population - Paul Hill and anybody else who has violated "Thou Shalt Not Murder"

[trumad]

16. May he be reincarted into the womb of a STAUNCH PRO CHOICER!

Let him sweat a little if ya know what I mean....

[joshcryer]

21. Hahah, that's beautiful.

Yet somehow I feel you'll get flamed.

[gratuitous]

28. With all due respect

Mr. Hill's death certificate will show his cause of death as "homicide." That murder will never be investigated, the murderer never indicted or tried. The murderer in this case is . . . you and me and the state that carried out the death penalty in our names.

[mumon]

19. And to think he wil never, ever

celebrate National Penis Day again!

[stopbush]

22. Good riddance to bad company

but I would have preferred he was sent to GITMO with the other "terrorists."

[NNN0LHI]

26. The death penalty is sick. I don't care who is being executed

This disgusts me. Life in prison is what penalty this man should have recieved. He gets off way too easy this way.

Don

[MaverickX]

67. locking people in prisons is sick..

What's the difference between me locking someone in my closet and the government locking a criminal in prison?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. Now there's two senseless deaths instead of one

[redwitch]

35. totally agree

the death penalty is wrong. We kill people to show people that killing people is wrong.

[Betty]

51. It's even more than that

he killed the doctor to show that killing is wrong, and then the state killed him to show that killing is wrong.

(BTW I don't personally equate abortion with killing an already born human, but you get the idea.)

[Forkboy]

48. Well said as always

This is wrong.

[MaverickX]

68. not really..

Punishing someone for killing another is common sense and all cultures have used this punishment.

[Mairead]

33. It would have been more fitting to put him in a zoo

Just like non-human animals are treated. Put him in a zoo and let him be on exhibit the rest of his life as a true sub-human.

[Parche]

34. GOOD

We need to show these ignorant religious right wingers that when they break the law and kill someone, they will be punished.

[bluestateguy]

44. to paraphrase Ann Coulter

"We need to execute this guy to show conservatives that they can be killed"

[NNN0LHI]

38. I think some DUers may be missing something here? Bear with me

Without even going into the moral implications of the death penalty do you not see that this is exactly what this person wants? He is no different tha Osama bin Laden or those 19 guys who were in those planes on 9/11. Even their words are similar. Look at some of these headlines from the Google news page.

http://www.news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=us&q=cluster:www%2enaplesnews%2ecom%2f03%2f09%2fnaples%2fd947631a%2ehtm

Abortionist Says He Expects 'a Great Reward in Heaven'

Florida to Execute Remorseless Anti-Abortion Killer

Killer 'looking forward to glory'

Florida Anti-Abortion Killer Expects Martyrdom

Giving this guy what he wants will do nothing more than encourage some other nut or nuts, to follow in his footsteps. This type of quick thrill some seem to enjoy by taking a crimminals life will do nothing to stop this in the future. This will only make others do the same as he has. So your day of elation which reminds me of a junky shooting up for that big rush, will only lead to more deaths on innocent people. Just keep that in mind. Guys like this and Osama bin Laden get a hard on thinking about martyrdom for their cause. And will only encourage others to do the same. You play into their hands. Think about it.

Does this guy look like someone who is worried about dying?

And though some incorrectly believe that it is cheaper to martyr him than keep keep him locked up until he dies in prison, I would still pay 10 times the amount some imagine the price is to keep obviously insane person penned up forever.

Don

[Chovexani]

45. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[stevedeshazer]

50. Yes, sir

I saw this bastard mocking the cameras.

He thought he would get his just reward in heaven for breaking one of his god's laws.

Better he should have had thousands of days in confinement to contemplate his foolish belief.

The guy should have lived in order to suffer, rather than die as a self-proclaimed martyr.

[MaverickX]

69. it doesn't matter..

If he was locked in prison for life he'd still have "followers" who view him as a martyr. The difference is now he can't enjoy it.

[dicknbush]

39. I think this guy got off easy

I think it would have been much more painfull for him to spend the rest of his life in a cell 23 hours a day with really bad food anda shower once a week then to let him go to heaven (At least that's whaere he thinks he is going)

Isn't it funny Mohhamad Atta thought he was going to heaven also and he was just a terrorist as much as this Hill guy. Maybe Atta is probing the nether regions of Mr Hill even as we type!

[dicknbush]

40. This guys fiteen minutes is

JUST ABUT UP. Except for the looney toones who will build shrines to him in Floriduh!

[Kemet]

41. Tough thread

And without going over the idea that death penalty is BARBARIC, wich is more an emotional point, i just cannot grasp the fact that the majority of a country is ready to put to death someone who might be innocent just to make sure that the guilty die; it's beyond me because in my eyes, there are no argument whatsoever to balance that simple fact. It doesn't matter wether you think that case is appropriate or this one is not, it does not make a difference, it's a law and it can and will fail on occasions; but when it does someone is gone... and that's all.

[stevedeshazer]

52. And these are supposedly liberals

:eyes:

[bluestateguy]

42. GOOD RIDDANCE!!!

He's a unrepentant murderer. Now he can't hurt anybody AND we won't have to listen to him talk either!

The Enron executives should be next!

[stevedeshazer]

54. "The Enron executives should be next!"

Then,

-the homeless
-the mentally ill
-the handicapped
-the gays
-the blacks
-the browns
-the liberals

You seriously should go read Anne Frank's diary, man.

[Forkboy]

58. Why am I not suprised he's for it?

:eyes:

[Bake]

56. I think his press conference was a bit of bravado

I bet he was humming a different tune when they strapped him in. He may have wanted to be a martyr at the press conference, but likely not when they flipped the switch.

I formerly supported the death penalty, but over the last few years I have come to question it almost entirely. This is primarily due to the discriminatory way it is carried out in our society. Well-to-do white men don't get executed; poor non-whites do. (O.J., of course, falls into the former category, but that's another story). My concern also arose out of the realization that a lot of innocent people get executed. The DP is just irreversible, even when carried out in error. Once carried out, it's done, end of story.

For those here who are anti-DP but who want him "in a zoo," "in Gitmo," or in a non-US prison (I guess that's a "real" prison), where exactly is the morality in that? Isn't that, in a sense, cruel and unusual? You want him flogged in the town square daily? Where's the morality in that?

These are not easy questions, and there are no easy answers. Society does have the right to punish those who violate its laws, whether for deterrence or retribution. The trick is to make sure you're punishing the right person, for the right reason, for the right crime. This clown makes no bones about it: He says "I did it, I'm glad I did it, and I feel no remorse about it." Assuming he's sane (maybe a stretch in his case), that eliminates the big concerns I have. The state got the right guy.

There is a saying I learned in law school: Hard cases make bad law. This clown's crime and execution are not the right circumstances for a strong argument against the DP.

Bake

[AntiCoup2K4]

59. Here's irony for you...

The same day that this piece of crap dies, none other than ex LAPD racist/detective Markkk Fuhrman appears on Hannazi & Clones to plug his new book, which is - believe it or not - anti death penalty!!

Seems our favorite detetective did some digging into the Oklahoma death row and found a whole shitload of guys who were executed only to be found not guilty a little late, by DNA evidence.

Now why Mark didn't take his investigation to TEXAS is my question. Wonder how many of Junior's 112 kills were actually guilty?

Not that there's any doubt about Paul Hill. But it's the majority of cases which are less than obvious which made me reconsider the death penalty. And when that reality even hits someone like Fuhrman upside the head, maybe things will change?

[LosinIt]

60. Matcom, Thanks for NOT calling him an "A........ Doctor"

that makes my blood boil. I hate when the media reduces a man's career as an OB/Gyn to one legal procedure that he happens to perform. Unfortunately the reality of it is that many of these doctors do now mostly perform this one procedure. That is due to the fact that they and their offices are under seige from the radical right. Patients arriving at their offices are accosted by the nutcases regardless of why they are there. Doesn't do a lot for a practice.

[Pert_UK]

61. Exactly what is it that makes this guy think he has the right?

It bothers me.

Standard Freeper response to any criticism of the government/President (when the Repugs aren't in charge) seems to be "Well if you don't like it, go and live somewhere else..."

And yet somehow there's this incredible self-righteousness of someone who has chosen to ignore the laws of his country (where abortion is legal and murder isn't).

It's partly religion (in this case) and partly the unbelievable, unquestioning, totally ignorant belief that if I say something loud enough then I'm right.

[tlb]

62. Did I miss the Vatican demanding clemency for him ?

Or Susan Sarandon and other semi professional DP opponents joining Hill's anti abortion supporters in their vigil out side the prison ?

Good riddance Mr Hill. Enjoy the ride.

[PATRICK]

75. emotional demeanor

The kind of relaxed calm cheerfulness that makes pyschopathic madness look benign. Hearing him on the radio engendered exactly the same feelings in me as the photo of that cheerful convicted young AlQaeda terrorist.

I don't envy them their confidence in Paradise. Fifty hopeless years in prison might have been better and make them "earn" their martyrdom points.

Too bad we can't get a follow up interview.