Newsweek: Faulty Armor? (Stryker is flawed - Army's known for months)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/962548.asp?0cv=CB10

The Bush administration’s military predicament in Iraq has suddenly gotten worse.

JUST A MONTH before the next U.S. Army unit is due to deploy in Iraq to relieve the hard-pressed forces already there, the military is confessing to a potential showstopper. The deploying unit’s new armored vehicles may have faulty armor which would leave them vulnerable to machine-gun fire and to the rocket-propelled grenades that are the Iraq insurgents’ favorite weapon.

The vehicle is the prized new Stryker wheeled troop carrier, advertised as the first fruit of the Army’s plan to transform itself into a lighter, go-anywhere-fast force.

Worse still: the Army has known it might have a problem since February, but has kept quiet about it. An Army memo sent yesterday to the head of the Stryker program, and obtained by NEWSWEEK, reports: “Evidently this issue was first raised in February 2003. Am unsure how this issue escaped public scrutiny for six months.” Not even Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was told, NEWSWEEK has learned. “Understand that ARSTAF have been told to treat this issue as if it were ‘classified’,” says the memo, which is addressed to Lt. Gen. John Riggs, the head of the Stryker program. At a recent Army meeting to discuss the faulty armor, the main topic on the agenda, according to a DOD source, was: “How do we tell Secretary Rumsfeld?” Rumsfeld is now in Iraq. According to the memo to Riggs, the Army briefed “selected staffers” on Capitol Hill yesterday.

[IndianaGreen]

1. The Bradleys were thin skinned too!

And we have seen what a safety hazzard Humvees have turned out to be.

The only ones to benefit are the arms merchants!

[madrchsod]

4. there is a movie about

the making of the bradley..dam funny movie about the way the us builds weapons..well it would be funnier if it wasn`t true....

[MaineDem]

22. Exactly my thought

Kelsey Grammer and the guy from Princess Bride, Elwes.

Funny if it wasn't true, I agree.

[bahrbearian]

23. I forgot the name of the movie??

It was funny but made me sick to think of how the Military and Government are controled by Business..

[Thor_MN]

29. The Pentagon Wars

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/

[bemildred]

5. About a year ago ...

I read a very interesting "lessons learned" piece from
Afghanistan which called the Stryker a "deathtrap". I still
don't know what they were doing over there, and I don't have
the link anymore.

You may be sure this is coming up now because they are planning
to field them and they know it will be worse for them if they
do. Otherwise they would continue to "work on it" and not tell
anyone.

[The Magistrate]

9. When Will These People Learn?

Aluminum burns.

Ceramic shatters.

Hard, high velocity shot will crack open a way for the focused blast of shaped-charge detonations.

Protection costs weight: it has been the case since people started designing these things.

[bemildred]

14. The people who know are not part of the design process.

When they are, they are often not understood.

Defense contractors like big expensive long range projects.
It pays better.
They never saw a project that was infeasible.
This rarely leads to what is militarily efficient.

I think highly armored platforms in general are questionable on a
modern battlefield, although I do understand the motivation.

[NYC]

2. I had read that they weren't supposed to be ready until 2005.

.

[atreides1]

33. Actually

The Stryker wasn't scheduled to be deployed until 2007-2008. Training was rushed and this first Stryker Brigade was supposed to have been returned to its parent unit, which happens to be the 2nd ID now stationed in South Korea.

What this means is that the 2nd ID is short one brigade, and since most infantry divisions have 3 combat brigades, we all better hope that Shrub and his buddies are real nice to the North Koreans.

[madrchsod]

3. now there`s a real piece of work

big as a school bus with holes in the armor and has area`s that are easy to penetrate with rifle fire. what the hell the program only costs several billion dollars.....

[hunter]

8. It looks like it was built to intimidate civilians...

...armed with rocks and sticks.

It's welfare for General Dynamics, that's all it was ever intended to be. Don't complain, or you'll see one in your hometown soon. Greet it with flowers.

I'll bet there is a secret memo somewhere asking the German company supplying the ceramic armor to cut costs because they never expected these things to be used in places like Iraq or Afghanistan where the locals carry very big guns.

[RamboLiberal]

10. Yeah it does look like a SWAT vehicle

US Military does have a history of building some real flawed technology. Not that we haven't also had some great weapons in our history. But from reading a lot of history it is amazing what our soldiers, sailors and aviators have had to overcome from at least the time of the Civil War.

Problem is now how many $$$$$ are poured in to these defense contractors coffers for these flawed vehicles.

And why the hell aren't we manufacturing these plates here - like we don't have ceramic manufacturers - hell I used to work for one? It disturbs me how much our military buys overseas.

[Barrett808]

6. It gets worse: Into Harm’s Way with the Stryker

08-06-2003

Guest Column: Into Harm’s Way with the Stryker

By Lonnie Shoultz

Despite the fact that it lacks its main weapon and has yet to be certified as a combat unit, the Fort Lewis-based “Stryker Brigade” will deploy on what amounts to a combat mission in Iraq in two months.

The announcement on July 23 by Acting Chief of Staff Gen. John Keane came as part of an overall Army plan to rotate the units stationed in Iraq since the start of the war for fresh units from the United States and Europe. Since Keane did not announce any lessening of the operational tempo for Army units in the Balkans, Afghanistan and elsewhere, his unit rotation plan was vague at its very best – a mixture of fact, fiction and fantasy.

(more)

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=DefenseWatch.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=161&rnd=698.8579156063088

[htuttle]

7. It sounds like there are FAR more problems than the armor

The main firepower intended to allow the Stryker Brigade to break through an ambush or to knock out a bunker stopping its infantry is the Main Gun System (MGS). The primary contractor for the Stryker Brigade, General Dynamics, claims to have built eight of the guns but the company has refused to release any data other than to confirm that the guns are not ready for deployment because they cannot be fired off the centerline of the Stryker vehicle. (If a target is directly in front of the MGS it can fire a round. If the barrel of the gun must be rotated to either side if the center line of the weapons carrier, firing the gun can flip the carrier over and render it unusable.)  

That's right. The main gun can only fire straight forward.

But get this:

Nobody in the U.S. defense industry seems to be surprised at the failure of General Dynamics to deliver the MGS. After all, the company has yet to deliver the armored gun system that it contracted to build for the Army in the 1980s. 

So they fished around for another gun system, and decided on a multiple TOW launcher. However:

It is apparent that Keane and those on the Army staff who assisted him are not veterans of urban warfare where the buildings, vehicles, targets and infantry are all operating very close together. Shooting a TOW missile into that environment is liable to kill more of our troops than the enemy. The resulting shell and other blast fragments are also certain to cut the tires off any Stryker vehicles nearby. 

And it has all the amenities:

Nor is the Main Gun System the only problem. The Stryker is an overweight, vehicle with insufficient internal space for the infantrymen packed into the rear troop compartment. Unofficial reports indicate it is so tight that those inside cannot even take out their canteens for a drink of water.   

It's like a case study in graft and incompetence. A lot of soldiers are going to die in those things.

[LittleApple81]

11. They should put Rove, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, Delay

in one of those and send them into the streets of Iraq. They can even wear military uniforms. Then have the guy that made the DC 9/11 movie go with them to film reality.

[Karenina]

27. "They can even wear military uniforms."

Better yet how 'bout they wear those faulty hazmat suits they planned to issue as protection against SADDAM'S CHEMICAL WEAPONS. You know, the one the guy was wearing to demonstrate when he fainted under the heat of the TV lights...

[JackSwift]

12. What a load of crap!

I bet they aren't air conditioned either. It sounds like the German firm that provided the defective ceramic plates is going to go bankrupt. I hope that they can eventually use a smaller machine gun without tipping the damn thing over. What a fiasco. Munitions makers make tons of money stealing from the taxpayer, and the soldiers die because they didn't get the armor protection paid for.

[PartyPooper]

13. Send Arnold over there. He can fix it!

With his bravado he can do just about anything! Besides, I'd much rather he "save" Iraq instead of Kaleefornia!

:evilgrin:

[grasswire]

15. what a horrible, horrible snafu

Is any of this on Clinton's watch? Or can we blame it all on Rummy?

[Wwagsthedog]

16. Lets blame it on tom delay too

The House of Reps appropriates money for defense and delay is House majority leader. We need to fry the evil roach!

[Ouabache]

17. Is it just me or would any pacifist realize that any substantial armament

that targetted the TIRES of that thing would disable it or seriously hamper its' maneuverability ? And, golly gee, with what is said about it not being able to do a centerline fire, sheesh, that's exactly in the middle of the tires.

So even if they can fix the armor situation...

Is General Dynamics a Carlyle Group Cash Cow ?

[ClintonTyree]

18. I'm sure......................

every over paid athlete and urban soccer Mom would LOVE one of these to ferry the kids around town. I'm sure there will be a dealership in L.A. soon if they prove to be as bad as reported for combat.

[tlb]

19. Gen. Shimeski's legacy.

The above article specifies the difficulties were kept hidden from the Secretary of Defense. Say what you will about Rummy, he has shown his willingness to cancel weapsons systems that are proven to be ineffective lemons. When there are articles about Rummy's confilcts with the generals, this might be something to keep in mind.

I've been following the Stryker problems for several years. A good summary, though you have to discount the tone somewhat, can be found at the link below. I'd paste exerpts but it's a right click diabled site. It's worth a look if you are actually interested in the history of the system and the features that turn it into an overpriced deathtrap.

This debacle rests squarely on Gen. Shimeski and his sponsors. Then on the inertia that an organization like the army develops once it has decided on a course of action.


http://militarycorruption.com/stryker.htm

[pw]

24. If the secretary of defense had been doing his job

instead of strutting around starting wars and purging his staff of anyone who gave him bad news, maybe he would have found out about this. It's not as if he doesn't have clearance to read the reports.

[jamesinca]

20. This is a Carlyle project

If I am remembering right this thing was introduced when Bush took office. Carlyle was one of the groups behind it. The woman from the House of Reps pointed out its flaws and she lost her butt in her bid for re-election because of a viscious smear campaign. The woman was from the south and I can not think of her name at the moment, I want to say her first name is Gayle. She picked up on the idea that it was being funded inappropriately, it was over priced and over rated. She presented her evidence and killed it right there. It also ended her political days. This POS has been in the works for awhile, but was never introduced until Bush got into office.

[Turley]

26. No it's not

A Carlyle unit built the Crusader (Artillery) which has also had some problems.

[baldguy]

21. The Pentagon Wars

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/

[salin]

25. general dynamics

who brought us faulty products and way overpriced items (800$ hammer anyone) in the 1980s. Looks like Jr recycled the IranContra Reagan Gang while also recycling the fraudulent contractors and their practices.

[Turley]

28. .

.

[JohnyCanuck]

30. If the Stryker is a Lemon,what do you call the V22 Osprey?

For those that don't keep up with aviation and/or military affairs, the Osprey is a hybrid between a helicopter and a conventional fixed wing aircraft supposedly combining the best features of both, i.e. vertical or nearly vertical takeoffs and landings combined with the higher speeds in horizontal flight offered by a convential fixed wing compared to a helicopter. It's supposed to become the replacement for the current line of troop carrying helicopers for the USMC.

Note however that while the brass thinks it's fine to use for trucking the grunts/cannon fodder into combat zones under extreme battlefield conditions, because of ongoing saftey issues it's not considered safe enough to be a candidate to replace the Pretzeldentle Helicopter fleet used to transport the Chimp in Chief and other Washington bigwigs and VIPs.

The dangers of the V-22 are no secret in Washington DC. The fleet of Presidential helicopters is aging, and replacements are needed by 2012. According to a June 16, 2003 article in the Washington Post: "The Marine Corps has asked Boeing Co. to enter the competition with its V-22 Osprey, which suffered two high-profile crashes in 2000, killing 23 Marines. But a senior Navy official said the aircraft, which could become operational as soon as 2006, may not be mature enough."

Mature enough? What happened is the Marine helicopter development and test squadron at Quantico, HMX-1, also provides White House helicopter support. HMX-1 pilots, who are not part of the Bell-Boeing V-22 test team, flew the V-22 several times and gave it low marks, so it was dropped as a candidate to shuttle White House VIPs. As a result, the angry Bell-Boeing test team had the Marines form "VMX-22" at MCAS New River and staffed it with "team" members to rubberstamp their results.

With its greater speed, the V-22 should be ideal for quickly moving hot shots around the East Coast without the need to take a helicopter hop to Andrews AFB to board an airplane. Boeing touts the tiltrotor as the ideal executive transport aircraft, although no airline has expressed an interest. Washington insiders also know the V-22 is unsafe, yet are unwilling to battle the political forces which profit off this racket and terminate the program. White House staffers determined the V-22 is safe enough for Marines to fly into tough combat zones, but not safe enough for Washington VIPs to land at clean helo pads.

The US Air Force's Air Combat Command is looking for the ideal Combat Search and Rescue aircraft to replace it's aging fleet of HH-60 Pave Hawks. Speed and range are critical for these 132 medium-lift aircraft the Air Force plans to buy. However, the Air Force refuses to consider the V-22 for this role. It seems Air Force Generals have determined the V-22 is flawed. The Air Force remains a minor player in the V-22 program since the Special Operations Command liked the idea of 50 CV-22s to replace their aging MH-53J Pave Lows. However, Special Ops operators have given the CV-22 low marks. The primary complaint is that the cabin of CV-22 is much smaller than the MH-53J, so much of their equipment will not fit inside. However, the Special Operations Command does not want to upset political supporters by backing out of the CV-22 in favor of new MH-53Ks, preferring to wait until it fails again. The Navy backed out of plans for 48 HV-22s two years ago in favor of the MH-60S, although the V-22 program ignores this reality. The MH-60S costs one-quarter of a V-22, weighs one-third as much, yet can lift almost the same amount of cargo.

More info and links about the Osprey at: www.g2mil.com/V-22struggles.htm

[IndianaGreen]

32. If the V-22 were a civilian aircraft, it would never pass FAA...

If the V-22 were a civilian aircraft, it would never pass FAA certification. This is a program that should have been shutdown years ago. The technology has been proven to be flawed. The V-22 is nothing but a killing machine of its pilots and crew!

Killing this program has been hard because of defense contractors located in several key electoral states, which means jobs and votes.

Remember the Patriot missile during the Gulf War and its performance in defending Israel against SCUDS? According to the Israelis, not a single SCUD worked, they all missed their targets! And yet, President Bush (the real President, not the current usurper) went to Raytheon on a photo op to congratulate the contractor for a job well done! The American public ate it up!

[jody]

31. Army doesn't want to tell Rummy his "reconceptualizing warfare" will fail.

QUOTE
"Rumsfeld's goal is reshaping the entire institution," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution who joined one of the closed-door discussions at the Pentagon. "He is rethinking everything, not just reconceptualizing warfare."
UNQUOTE

The source link has been archived
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/24/international/worldspecial/24TROO.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=