Ok Le Monde is reporting we have lost

[nadinbrzezinski]

11 troops in the last 24 hours, here is the link, and yes
if you read french expect some very sad and complex news.

(I had to learn some while getting my MA... to read material
for a thesis... and never thiought I woudl be pouring over Le
Monde after KGO reported this)

Irak : jeudi noir pour les forces américaines
LEMONDE.FR | 19.09.03 | 08h41 • MIS A JOUR LE 19.09.03 | 09h55
Mince rayon de soleil dans la journée noire des Américains, l'ancien ministre irakien de la défense, Sultan Hachem Ahmed, n°27 sur la liste des 55 dirigeants du régime déchu les plus recherchés, se serait rendu aux forces américaines à Mossoul.
En 24 heures, les forces américaines ont enregistré de lourdes pertes en Irak - onze hommes au total -, qui témoignent de la persistance, voire de l'aggravation, de la situation dans le pays.
Trois soldats américains ont en effet été tués et deux autres blessés dans une embuscade jeudi 18 septembre dans la soirée près de Tikrit, ville d'origine du président déchu, Saddam Hussein, a annoncé vendredi un porte-parole militaire américain.


http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3218--334552-,00.html

[markses]

1. And using the same unconfirmed Al-Arabiyah source

as everyone else.

Not only is there no independent corraboration for the al-Arabiya story, the initial AP account is even internally inconsistent. A journalist can't get close enough to see anything but the flames before Americans shoot at him, yet these so-called eye witnesses (Iraqis!) are hanging around counting the dead in the middle of a fierce firefight? Makes no sense.

However, the fact that this rumor has spread beyond any bounds of reason (especially given al-Arabiya's poor track record, and the notorious inflation of casualties by Iraqi "eyewitnesses") does signal a subtle shift.

Last week CENTCOM ceased posting casualty press releases on its website. To look at it now, you'd think we were in the old Saigon Five O'Clock Follies: Nothing but blue skies and happy children in the press releases. The fact that the entirety of the foreign press has run with this unsubstantiated al-Arabiya report is a smackdown of the new CENTCOM policy: You won't say anything, so we'll run with the worst-case scenario.

The press in Iraq is, apparently, fed up. That's the ONLY importance of this story until it receives some real confirmation. Simply posting thatyet another foreign press source CITES the al-Arabiya report doesn't act as confirmation of the story, in any case.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Here is my theory

running as to the eleven dead and looking at the Washigton times report.

(wich came from AP)

We have confirmed three.

The report mentions anywhere from four to eight seriously burned troops...

That is the math.

As a medic though, (former) I can tell you that you may see a
person burned very seriously and you may think they are dead
if you cannot aproach, or cannot see them closely.

Now if those troops were burned as seriously as even the moonie times
sugests, we will have eleven dead or close to... or they may be dead, as in already dead.

Regardless we are not doing well, in any way shape or form... the UK and the French press are reporting eight dead on Caldea... now Al Arabya has a bad track record, but guess what? This is bad enough that this time around CENCOM will not be able to hide it (if they are dead) or not. And by the way CENCOM has been playing games that are worst than the Three O'Clock Follies with the WIA numbers. My brother in law and I have noticed this, as well with the KIA...

IT reminds me of Nam... and just like Nam, the truth is out there, but, sadly not in the corporate press... unless they wake up.

[whirlygigspin]

3. quick translation

Iraq: black thursday for American forces.
A thin ray of sun shown in a black day for Americans, when the former
Iraqi defense minister, Sultan Hachem Ahmed, no 27 on the list
of the 55 most wanted fallen regime leaders,
surrenderred to American forces in Mossul.

In 24 hours, American forces registered heavy losses in Iraq.
Eleven men in total-, evidence of the persistant and worsening
situation in the country.
Three American soldiers were killed and two others hurt in an ambush
thursday September 18th, in the evening near Tikrit, home town of
the defeated president, Saddam Hussein, an American military spokesperson announced Friday.

[PATRICK]

4. Retreat to crusader castles

or home. There does not seem to be any resiliency or better response as the attackers grown more experienced and confident and our jittery somewhat under trained and ill-equipped troops. This seems so predictable thatit is all the more nauseating to see the whole mess still run by spinners more worried about politics, oil flow and image- AND the next conquest! - than any adaptation, even if the old style VietNam futility.

[fizzana]

5. According to Henry Kissinger we have lost

Kissinger said that in a war of insurgency the guerillas win by not losing while the occupiers lose by not winning.

By that yardstick we're certainly not winning and it looks highly unlikely that we will be able to pacify Iraq anytime soon.

[realFedUp]

6. For those of us who don't speak French....

It's probably better to have a translated link
for any news....and this technically is news, not
an editorial. So, just for the future, find English
links and post just editorials or opinion pieces in
this forum. Thanks!

rfu, moderator on duty :-)

[TahitiNut]

7. Using Babelfish ...

... on the printer version at http://www.lemonde.fr/imprimer_article_ref/0,5987,3218--334552,00.html we get

Iraq: black Thursday for the American forces
LEMONDE.FR | 19.09.03 | UPDATED • 08h41 19.09.03 | 09h55
Thin sunbeam in the black day of the Americans, the former Iraqi minister for defense, Sultan Hachem Ahmed, n°27 on the list of the 55 leaders of the deposed mode the most sought, would have gone to the American forces in Mossoul.
In 24 hours, the American forces recorded heavy losses in Iraq - eleven men on the whole -, who testify to persistence, even of aggravation, the situation in the country.

Three American soldiers were indeed killed and two others wounded in a ambush Thursday September 18 in the evening close to Tikrit, town of origin of the deposed president, Saddam Hussein, announced to Friday an American military spokesman. The soldiers members of the 4E division of infantry were attacked with eight kilometers in the south of the city.

The fixing occurred enters 22 hours and 23 standard times (between 8 p.m. and 21 hours in Paris), punctuating a heavy day for the American troops, marked in particular by the attack of one convoy in the west of Baghdad and by the fire of a pipeline in the north of Iraq, at the following day of a message allotted to Saddam Hussein inviting "to intensify resistance".
<snip>

To read for yourself, plug in the URL at http://babel.altavista.com/