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Torture's Part of the Territory (can't colonize Iraq w/o torture)

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Vitruvius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 09:01 AM
Original message
Torture's Part of the Territory (can't colonize Iraq w/o torture)
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 09:04 AM by Vitruvius
by Naomi Klein (Los Angeles Times)

Brace yourself for a flood of gruesome new torture snapshots. Last week, a federal judge ordered the Defense Department to release dozens of additional photographs and videotapes depicting prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib.

The photographs will elicit what has become a predictable response: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld will claim to be shocked and will assure us that action is already being taken to prevent such abuses from happening again. But imagine, for a moment, if events followed a different script. Imagine if Rumsfeld responded like Col. Mathieu in "Battle of Algiers," Gillo Pontecorvo's famed 1965 film about the National Liberation Front's attempt to liberate Algeria from French colonial rule. In one of the film's key scenes, Mathieu finds himself in a situation familiar to top officials in the Bush administration: He is being grilled by a room filled with journalists about allegations that French paratroopers are torturing Algerian prisoners.

Based on real-life French commander Gen. Jacques Massus, Mathieu neither denies the abuse nor claims that those responsible will be punished. Instead, he flips the tables on the scandalized reporters, most of whom work for newspapers that overwhelmingly support France's continued occupation of Algeria. Torture "isn't the problem," he says calmly. "The problem is the FLN wants to throw us out of Algeria and we want to stay…. It's my turn to ask a question. Should France stay in Algeria? If your answer is still yes, then you must accept all the consequences."

His point, as relevant in Iraq today as it was in Algeria in 1957, is that there is no nice, humanitarian way to occupy a nation against the will of its people. Those who support such an occupation don't have the right to morally separate themselves from the brutality it requires.

Now, as then, there are only two ways to govern: with consent or with fear... <SNIP>

more at: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-klein7jun07,0,5950368.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
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Bob3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Another reason to get the hell out of there
You know it's possible that once the US leaves and stops bombing buildings and shooting people at roadblocks - the Iraqis might be able to work things out for themselves.
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GAlanJag Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bombings stopping in Iraq?
Let's suppose that the US troops left today and were completely out of Iraq by the end of next week. How long do you think it would take the Sunnis to reorganize themselves into a fighting force to take back power in Iraq? Do you truly believe that once we left the country that all Iraqis would then come together in peace and harmony? How did that work out over the last 35 years? We didn't have troops in Iraq, but someone used chemical weapons against the Kurds. Was this, perhaps, a CIA operation to throw ill will onto Saddam? I know, it must have been Jewish operatives that did all the killing in Iraq under Saddam.

Final point, if we leave too soon, then the new government will not be able to protect itself and Baathists will return to power and kill off anyone who could possibly be a future threat to their power base. Count on it.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The presence of US troops isn't preventing it, either
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 10:16 AM by Jack Rabbit
I dispute the assertions implied in your post that Sunni resistance equates to a desire for a return Baathist rule and that the presence of US troops is the only thing between a democratic Iraq and domination by a brutal Sunni minority.

How long do you think it would take the Sunnis to reorganize themselves into a fighting force to take back power in Iraq?

There are more Shia than Sunni in Iraq nowadays. What is keeping the Shia from organizing into a fighting force to prevent a Sunni takeover? Does that sound like civil war? It does, doesn't it?

Had Saddam keeled over and died of a heart attack, stroke or a well-deserved case of sudden lead poisoning, instead of being overthrown by a foreign invasion, the result quite likely would have been an open, armed struggle for power among Iraq's various ethnic minorities. Has that been prevented by the presence of foreign troops in Iraq? It doesn't look like it to me.

One point that Ms. Klein makes which you miss is that even most Shia, like most Sunni, want the US out of Iraq, sooner rather than later. They know that Iraq cannot be truly sovereign as long as the government is dependent on foreign troops for its survival; they also know that foreign troops are there not to protect the Iraqi people, but to protect the interests of foreign corporations intent on expropriating Iraq's wealth.

Which brings us back to Ms. Klein's piece. The thesis is that, like the French occupation of Algeria, this is a colonial occupation that must rule by fear because it does not rule by consent. Do you have any comment on that?
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GAlanJag Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I shall respond
While I may have missed Ms. Klein's point, I believe that you have also missed a point. You state, "this is a colonial occupation . . .", but in order for this to be called a "colonial occupation" we would have to be sending over "colonists" to take the land for themselves. Have I missed something in the news reports about Iraq? I sure don't remember the USA sending colonists to Iraq. If you wish to state that this is an occupying force, I would have to agree. But a colonial occupation? I think not.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. . . . and I shall respond: You have indeed missed something
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 01:29 PM by Jack Rabbit
This invasion and occupation have nothing to do with fighting terrorism or any other national security concern. The members of the Bush regime knew this. That is why they "fixed" intelligence and facts to fit the policy.

The purpose of the invasion was and occupation is to place Iraq's resources in the hands of western transnational corporations. That is colonialism. The "colonists" are artificial persons with names like Halliburton, Bechtel and DynCorps. The real people behind these artificial persons live in the Green Zone.

Laws have been imposed on the natives by a foreigners for the purpose of promoting and protecting western interests. Bremer, a classic governor general, made decrees and no Iraqi government thus far has been permitted to repeal them. Iraq is not a sovereign state.

It is a colonial occupation.
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GAlanJag Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. A question, if I might . . .
You state that the colonists are artificial persons (why not just say corporations) with names like Haliburton and that the resources of Iraq are/will be placed in the hands of "western transnational corporations".

First, does that mean that any profits from the sale of oil will not go to the Iraqis, but rather to a transnational corporation? I have heard over and over that this was a war for oil. If this is true, then why are oil prices rising constantly and why are we not simply filling oil tanker after oil tanker and shipping all that oil back to the US? Surely, if we fought for the oil wouldn't we then take the oil?

Second, do you think that the Iraqi people would be able to manufacture the materials needed to maintain their oil infrastructure? How about the expertise to maintain it? When our military got to the oil fields, it was reported by imbeded journalists that the machines which help run the oil fields were in disrepair.

Who do you think first pointed out to the Saudis that there was something of value beneath their sands? Who helped them to create the means by which that country has an economy? Without oil, Saudi Arabia and many of the Arab nations would have little to no economy. It's not like they're going to be planting corn and wheat any time soon.

We can debate whether we should have gone into Iraq to begin with, but the reality is that we are there now. The real question is how do we proceed from here? Do we pull out right now, or do we stay (as the interim government has asked) and ensure that they will be able to protect themselves?
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Bob3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. let me respond now.
One of the reasons we are not getting any oil out of Iraq is that well - with oil at $54 bucks a barrel - the oil companies, folks near and dear to the president and vice president - are making out like bandits. The point of the exercise is to control the oil supply not to ease the common man's problems, about Ted and his SUV they could care less.

the second reason that we're not pumping oil out of Iraq as fast as we can is that Iraqis keep blowing up pipelines and trucks and the like. It's hard to conduct day to day business with explosions going on all the time.

Three I would think that the Iraqi people would be able manage their oil fields just fine thank you. For example they might even throw the repair of the oil fields and the manufacture of more refining capacity to open biding which might even dear god cost less and get better results than the no bid contracts to well connected us companies that are the standard right now.

And I suggest that it's a bit condescending to imply that the Iraqi's are ignorant folks needing some kind of adult guidance. For one were able to keep the power grid working - yeah it was a jury rigged system but for people with few if any spare parts they were able to supply electric power more reliably that we have been in the last two years with all our high priced consultants and parts.

As for the last point - We've heard this song before - it was the same argument we got in Vietnam and all it did was prolong the agony.

We are not doing any good there - none at all.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Response
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 04:19 PM by Jack Rabbit
Oil prices are rising because demand is outstripping supply. This has nothing to do with Iraq. OPEC (read: Saudi Arabia) has increased production, but this still cannot keep up with demand. Much of the increased demand comes from China, a nation that has developed into an economic giant and needs the petroleum to fuel its own industrial output, as does the US.

(D)o you think that the Iraqi people would be able to manufacture the materials needed to maintain their oil infrastructure? How about the expertise to maintain it? When our military got to the oil fields, it was reported by imbeded journalists that the machines which help run the oil fields were in disrepair.

Who do you think first pointed out to the Saudis that there was something of value beneath their sands? Who helped them to create the means by which that country has an economy? Without oil, Saudi Arabia and many of the Arab nations would have little to no economy. It's not like they're going to be planting corn and wheat any time soon.

I certainly believe that Iraqis have the expertise to run their own oil industry. Are you suggesting that they don't and need westerners to run it for them? You seem to have this idea that Iraqis, at least those who aren't Sunni (whom you seem to think are just vicious), a poor helpless innocent children who need benevolent Americans to run the show for them. These people are grown ups. We don't need to condescend them.

Iraq was in general disrepair at the time invasion as the result of a decade of crippling sanctions. Things have not gotten better as a result of the occupation. According to Rod Nordland, bureau chief for Newsweek in Baghdad:

Living and working in Iraq, it's hard not to succumb to despair. At last count America has pumped at least $7 billion into reconstruction projects, with little to show for it but the hostility of ordinary Iraqis, who still have an 18 percent unemployment rate. Most of the cash goes to U.S. contractors who spend much of it on personal security. Basic services like electricity, water and sewers still aren't up to prewar levels. Electricity is especially vital in a country where summer temperatures commonly reach 125 degrees Fahrenheit. Yet only 15 percent of Iraqis have reliable electrical service. In the capital, where it counts most, it's only 4 percent.

The most powerful army in human history can't even protect a two-mile stretch of road. The Airport Highway connects both the international airport and Baghdad's main American military base, Camp Victory, to the city center. At night U.S. troops secure the road for the use of dignitaries; they close it to traffic and shoot at any unauthorized vehicles. More troops and more helicopters could help make the whole country safer. Instead the Pentagon has been drawing down the number of helicopters. And America never deployed nearly enough soldiers. They couldn't stop the orgy of looting that followed Saddam's fall. Now their primary mission is self-defense at any cost—which only deepens Iraqis' resentment.

The four-square-mile Green Zone, the one place in Baghdad where foreigners are reasonably safe, could be a showcase of American values and abilities. Instead the American enclave is a trash-strewn wasteland of Mad Max-style fortifications. The traffic lights don't work because no one has bothered to fix them. The garbage rarely gets collected. Some of the worst ambassadors in U.S. history are the GIs at the Green Zone's checkpoints. They've repeatedly punched Iraqi ministers, accidentally shot at visiting dignitaries and behave (even on good days) with all the courtesy of nightclub bouncers—to Americans and Iraqis alike. Not that U.S. soldiers in Iraq have much to smile about. They're overworked, much ignored on the home front and widely despised in Iraq, with little to look forward to but the distant end of their tours—and in most cases, another tour soon to follow. Many are reservists who, when they get home, often face the wreckage of careers and family.

It sounds to me like the Americans trying to run Iraq need Iraqis to show them what to do. I'll bet they could keep traffic lights running and make women feel safe outdoors better than we are doing it for them. Perhaps they'd even make a better go of maintaining the road from downtown Baghdad to the airport.

You state that the colonists are . . . corporations . . . and that the resources of Iraq are/will be placed in (their) hands . . . .

. . . (D)oes that mean that any profits from the sale of oil will not go to the Iraqis, but rather to a transnational corporation? I have heard over and over that this was a war for oil. If this is true, then why are oil prices rising constantly and why are we not simply filling oil tanker after oil tanker and shipping all that oil back to the US? Surely, if we fought for the oil wouldn't we then take the oil?

The original plan was for the Iraqi oil industry to be privatized and sold. As Ms. Klein reported even as US troops were making their way to Baghdad:

(T)here's oil. The Bush Administration knows it can't talk openly about selling off Iraq's oil resources to ExxonMobil and Shell. It leaves that to Fadhil Chalabi, a former Iraq petroleum ministry official. "We need to have a huge amount of money coming into the country," Chalabi says. "The only way is to partially privatize the industry."

He is part of a group of Iraqi exiles who have been advising the State Department on how to implement that privatization in such a way that it isn't seen to be coming from the United States. Helpfully, the group held a conference on April 4-5 in London, where it called on Iraq to open itself up to oil multinationals after the war. The Administration has shown its gratitude by promising there will be plenty of posts for Iraqi exiles in the interim government.

Some argue that it's too simplistic to say this war is about oil. They're right. It's about oil, water, roads, trains, phones, ports and drugs. And if this process isn't halted, "free Iraq" will be the most sold country on earth.

This is why the war was fought. It certainly wasn't a vast biochemical arsenal or Saddam's close working relationship with al Qaida. There wasn't any such arsenal and there was no real relationship with al Qaida. Only those naive enough to think that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfowitz, et al. believed their own pre-invasion rhetoric think otherwise.

As for why they don't just fill up tanker after tanker, part of the reason is in Ms. Klein's article from 2003 and part of the reason is in the passage form Mr. Nordland's article quoted above. If the Bush administration and large US corporations can't keep the road to the Baghdad airport secure, can't keep power running even at pre-invasion levels, can't get clean water to Iraqi homes and can't even keep the trash picked up in the Green Zone, they certainly shouldn't be expected to get Iraq's oil industry back on its feet even for their own benefit.

We can debate whether we should have gone into Iraq to begin with, but the reality is that we are there now. The real question is how do we proceed from here? Do we pull out right now, or do we stay (as the interim government has asked) and ensure that they will be able to protect themselves?

Once again, Iraqis are grown ups who can take care of themselves and, if the last two years of foreign occupation is any indication, do it better than Bush and his corporate cronies can do it for them. If the Sunnis can organize a resistance, what is stopping the Shia and Kurds from organizing security forces? Perhaps they're too dependent on Bush and his friends for security. They do security the same way they water and power. The Iraqis can do it themselves better.

Perhaps Iraqi security would even be provided by a government that governs by consent. As Ms. Klein points out in the piece that achors this thread, least we lose her point again, that is the kind of government which, unlike Saddam's and unlike the neoconservative occupation, doesn't need to resort to torture to remain in power.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. And the concluding paragraph means what, that torture is just...
...another part of war?

<snip>
When the next batch of photographs from Abu Ghraib appear, many Americans will be morally outraged, and rightly so. But perhaps some brave official will take a lesson from Col. Mathieu and dare to turn the tables: Should the United States stay in Iraq? If your answer is still yes, then you must accept all the consequences.
<end snip>

By releasing these photos in stages, the U.S. military has conditioned people to accepting the criminality of U.S. policy as normal and right. I believe the Geneva conventions are very clear on the use of torture.

<snip>
Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

<more>
<link> http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ms. Klein nails it again

Most Iraqis do not consent to the open-ended military occupation they have been living under for more than two years. On Jan. 30, a clear majority voted for political parties promising to demand a timetable for U.S. withdrawal. Washington may have succeeded in persuading Iraq's political class to abandon that demand, but the fact remains that U.S. troops are on Iraqi soil in open defiance of the express wishes of the population.

Lacking consent, the current U.S.-Iraqi regime relies heavily on fear, including the most terrifying tactics of them all: disappearances, indefinite detention without charge and torture.

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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think they are just rounding up the boys and the men,
and forcing them to join the Army or the Police. That is not Democracy no matter who defines it.
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