A faith vacuum haunts Europe(15% atheist-only half say God "very important

[papau]

"...Gallup Millennium Survey ... barely 20% of West Europeans attend church services at least once a week, compared with 47% of North Americans and 82% of West Africans. Fewer than half of West Europeans say God is a "very important" part of their lives, as against 83% of Americans and virtually all West Africans. And fully 15% of West Europeans deny that there is any kind of "spirit, God or life force" — seven times the American figure and 15 times the West African.... One in five Britons claim to "attend an organized religious service regularly," less than half the American figure. Little more than a quarter say that they pray regularly, compared with two thirds of Americans and 95% of Nigerians. And barely one in 10 Britons would be willing to die for our God or our beliefs, compared with 71% of Americans...."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ferguson1aug01,0,1731682.story?track=tottext

NIALL FERGUSON
A faith vacuum haunts Europe
A void left in 'Christendom' by pervasive lack of belief may be creating a soft target for the religious fanaticism of others.
NIALL FERGUSON
Niall Ferguson is a professor of history at Harvard University. He is the author of "Empire" (Basic Books, 2003) and "Colossus" (Penguin, 2004). He will be writing a weekly column for The Times.

August 1, 2005

The writer G.K. Chesterton once suggested that atheists were "balanced on the very edge of belief — of belief in almost anything." I was reminded of this critique last week by a report of a conversation between one of the would-be London bombers, Muktar Said Ibrahim, and a former neighbor of his in Stanmore, the suburb of North London where he grew up.

Americans tend to assume that what is going on in Europe today is a struggle between Islamic extremism and Western — or Judeo-Christian, if you will — tolerance. But this is only half right.

"He asked me," Sarah Scott said, "if I was Catholic because I have Irish family, and I said I didn't believe in anything. And he said I should. He told me he was going to have all these virgins when he got to heaven if he praises Allah. He said if you pray to Allah and if you have been loyal to Allah, you would get 80 virgins, or something like that."

Now, it is the easiest thing in the world to make fun of the notion, apparently a commonplace among jihadists, that a suicide bomber who successfully blows up a decent number of infidels is rewarded in heaven with 80 virgins. (Wouldn't you prefer, say, two desperate housewives?) But is it, I wonder, significantly stranger to believe, like Sarah Scott, in nothing at all? <snip>

[htuttle]

1. "A faith vacuum..."?

...or the fresh air of reason and intellectual freedom?

[papau]

3. 15% atheist plus 35% have God below "very important" - because they

have reason and intellectual freedom - or because to do otherwise would be inconvenient?

A discussion that belongs in the DU religious or atheist forums/groups, but for today was an op-ed in the LA Times

peace

:-)

[htuttle]

6. It might also mean they are simply more honest...

...given the lack of oppresive cultural conformity in Europe that we have in the US.

I know a lot of people here in the US who I suspect might answer 'Christian' on a survey, but haven't been to a church in two decades, and don't seem to spend a minute thinking about it. It seems like more of a tribal affiliation for them, like so many followers of Zeus or Apollo.

I can count the number of people I've known in the US who've actually attempted to follow Christ's teaching on one hand -- and I'm 42, and have known a lot of people. And I think I met about half of them at a Rainbow Gathering right before Park Rangers tried to kick us out.

:shrug:

[shrike]

13. I'd have to agree with you

I've met very few hard-core atheists in my life -- but I've also met very few die-hard believers. Most people don't care one way or the other -- they don't think about it much, that's probably a better way to put it. It's not a part of their daily lives. Most people I know would probably say, "Yeah, there's probably a God of some sort, but why go to church? Can't I just be a good person." Almost no one I know goes to church. I do, but I'm a rarity.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Or a great breeding ground for Freethinking, Rationalism, and reality-

based behavior!

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. My theory for the historian on why faith has declined in Europe:

Being the battleground for 2 world wars did a lot to convince people that the idea of an interested, caring God who looks out for the weak and innocent just didn't add up.

And where Fergusson sees a 'moral vacuum', I see a 'dogma vacuum', which is a Good Thing. He strikes me as much too Straussian.

[Lindacooks]

23. Yep, I agree.

Europeans, as you say, have seen so much death and turmoil over religion; they are just smarter than we are. They know what fascism looks like. And they know, from the Spanish Inquisition to WWII, that religion in the hands of the powerful is very, very dangerous.

[TlalocW]

5. I don't understand the whole 80 virgins thing

Heaven for Islamic followers involves virgins? What do the women get? If a guy worked really hard at it and was careful about his appearance and charm, he could probably get close to 80 while alive. :)

TlalocW

[tocqueville]

12. eternal erection is guaranteed too

can you beat that ?

[Demeter]

19. They Probably Don't Think Women Have Souls, or Rights to An Afterlife

after all, irrational consistency is the hallmark of little minds.

[MountainLaurel]

7. Look at the language used

"Haunts Europe"

How very over-assuming and ethnocentric of us. I'd bet that very few of those Europeans are losing sleep or otherwise consumed with the issue of the "faith vacuum" there. In fact, I'll assume they're pretty damn pleased with the current state, and are probably a better society for it.

[bennywhale]

8. I'm european and i'm not haunted by any vacuum of any kind. In fact i'm

pleased that a dogamtic belief in the unbelievable is now gone from this continent.

This dogma is what has haunted us for centuries resulting in millions of deaths. Since it has left we have been a peaceful continent.

[Bridget Burke]

9. How can a vacuum "haunt" anyone?

How does lack of religion make one vulnerable to the fanaticism of a (small minority) of another religion? Isn't a reasonable response better than a Crusade?

I like G K Chesterton myself, but one can't take the Anglo-Catholics too seriously. I mean, "Christendom"?

[K-W]

10. This is just a tortured argument for Christian supremecy.

He equates athiesm with believing in Shamans, as if the two had anything to do with each other outside of being non-christian. One can only assume he does this to mask the fact that athiests are MUCH less tolerant of religious extremism than any other group, which blows his point to pieces.

He then suggests that the fact that people believe in non-christian superstitions makes them a soft target for terrorism because they accept fanaticism by equating a shamen with a Jihdist. Apparently we are to believe that all non-christians are flaming idiots.

[tocqueville]

18. look at his former email

Professor Niall C Ferguson
M.A., D.Phil.

Visiting Professor in Modern European History

Jesus College

Email: [e-mail]

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. If you're referring to the 'Jesus'

then about half the colleges and Oxford have religious names, having been founded hundreds of years ago, when they were primarily religious institutions (Oxford lecturers had to have taken hole orders, whatever their subject, until about the mid 19th Century). You can't read anything into the names of the colleges these days.

[tocqueville]

11. check this comparison

Seven questions were asked in 1991:

God: "I know God exists and I have no doubts about it"
Afterlife: I definitely believe in "life after death"
Bible: "The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word." A yes answer implies that the subject believes in the inerrancy of the Bible.
Devil: I definitely believe in "the Devil."
Hell: I definitely believe in "Hell."
Heaven: I definitely believe in "Heaven."
Miracle: I definitely believe in "religious miracles."

Results are shown below. Appended to the list are:

the results of a survey showing the percentage of persons who said yes to the following question: "In your opinion, how true is this? ...Human beings developed from earlier species of animals.." The results are a measure of belief in human evolution, and disbelief in creation science.

results here

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htm

[shrike]

14. Hate to say it, but I can't blame them

After all the horrific strife that went on in Europe, it's no wonder many of them turned their back on organized religion.

[FrankLee]

15. Sounds like Europe is the place to be

Bunch of psychos over here can't seem to take any personal responsibility. Or worse, they just do whatever the hell they like while still wearing God on their sleeves.

[Briar]

16. Ferguson's resume bears close attention

"Niall Ferguson is a professor of history at Harvard University. He is the author of "Empire" (Basic Books, 2003) and "Colossus" (Penguin, 2004). He will be writing a weekly column for The Times."

This is the man who thinks Empires are A Good Thing and wants the US to be assertive about its own.

[Demeter]

17. The Only "Vaccuum" Exists In the Minds Of People Who Fill Their Brains

with this excrement. (Build your vocabulary through invective!) Think, or die. It's always been that way. And wnen dealing with the faith-obssessed, lie, cheat, steal, and leave in the night, or kill them first; there is no "middle way" and no "Triangulation" is possible.

[bemildred]

20. "Europe throws off shackles of superstition at last".

A better headline, IMHO.

[tocqueville]

21. NIALL FERGUSON is a fundie disguised in history professor

Yet it is not the spread of such mumbo-jumbo that concerns me as much as the moral vacuum that de-Christianization has created. Sure, sermons are sometimes dull and congregations often sing out of tune. But, if nothing else, a weekly dose of Christian doctrine helps to provide an ethical framework for life. And it is not clear where else such a thing is available in modern Europe.

Over the last few weeks, Britons have heard a great deal from Tony Blair and others about the threat posed to their "way of life" by Muslim extremists like Muktar Said Ibrahim. But how far has their own loss of religious faith turned Britain into a soft target — not so much for the superstition Chesterton feared, but for the fanaticism of others?


1) what fucking ethical framework for life ? Abortion is bad, gays are bad, you are going to hell ?

2) "turned Britain into a soft target" ? so the lack of Christianity in the UK made them a target ? is it God's revenge ? to be logical the lack of Christianity in the US must have been horrible - despite all figures saying the contrary - since they were hit on 9/11...

what a lot of BS

[wli]

22. he hates Europeans for their religious freedom

[Puzzler]

24. It's not a "faith vacuum"...

... it's an "abundance of common sense".

Talk about framing an issue in the first sentence.


-P

[dand]

25. Good for Europe!

Religion is evil in all it's forms.

[bluestateboomer]

27. Ever notice that according to most religions

When something is going well in your life, god is responsible. When something is screwed up, it's your failing.:)

[drhilarius]

28. Curious name for Reason- "Faith Vacuum"...I kind of like it. nt

[BlueEyedSon]

29. Then, when it's all sucked up into the filter bag with dirt & lint

we can toss it into the "belief dumpster"....

[rodeodance]

30. The Right uses this thesis to claim that the US is better than Europe.

[Beetwasher]

31. What Demented Headline. How About They ENJOY an ABUNDANCE of REASON

instead? They lack nothing because they reject superstitious bullshit and they're better off for it.