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Concerning these abrupt forming hurricanes in the West Atlantic...

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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 07:35 PM
Original message
Concerning these abrupt forming hurricanes in the West Atlantic...
Anybody ever hear of Project H.A.A.R.P ? That stands for High Altitude Active Auroral Research Program, and the US has been experimenting with it since the end of WWII. It is basically studying ways to control the weather for use in combat situations. The government has a setup in Alaska right now which has been in use for some time.
There has also been speculation that quite possibly this gizmo was at fault in bringing Paul Wellstone's plane down, as electromagnetic pulsing is used in this research.
Here is a link to a short synopsis about this project...google holds much more...
http://www.earthpulse.com/src/subcategory.asp?catid=1&subcatid=1
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. They say their research is passive.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. No, they say there are ALSO instruments which are strictly passive.
In other words, there's a lot of scientific equipment at the facility,
and not all of it uses the IRI.
In other words, the second quote below should be read as " Scientific instruments installed ..."

"The ionospheric research instrument (IRI), a high power transmitter facility operating in the HF frequency range. The IRI will be used to temporarily excite a limited area of the ionosphere for scientific study."

"Scientific instruments installed at the HAARP Observatory will be useful for a variety of continuing research efforts which do not involve the use of the IRI but are strictly passive."
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. :tinfoilhat:
:tinfoilhat:
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. REALLY???
Go do the research my friend. And go a little farther than their homepage which is all cuddly and warm!
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Some books on ionosphere and communications.
1. The ARRL Handbook for Radio Communications
<>
very good charts and figures and very simple math.

2. Neubeck and West, "VHF Propagation"
<>
straight froward.

3. Now You're Talking!
<>
Straight forward - about 5 pages.

4. Poole, "Radio Propagation -- Principles & Practice"
<>
Readable

5. Balanis, "Antenna Theory : Analysis and Design"
<http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0471592684.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg>
Not very readable -- but totally comprehensive.
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blossomstar Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. I believe it has a LOT to do with the altering of our weather patterns...
It would be just like chimpy to want to "rule the world"... also, isn't this part of the Star Wars program that Reagan started? This is not tin foil hat stuff... it's really happening and it's screwing up mother nature...Big Time.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. The conspiracy is GLOBAL WARMING
Edited on Tue Sep-20-05 08:05 PM by Coastie for Truth
Just solve the matrix of second order partial differential equations of hurricane formation over a world wide net/grid, and play with ocean surface temperatures in increments of a few tenths of a degree. You will quickly get to some very tight, very high velocity "cyclonic disturbances" (i.e., hurricanes).

At a high enough ocean surface temperature -- these very tight, very high velocity "cyclonic disturbances" get frighteningly common, frighteningly high speed.

Some good papers are in the Hoffman and Maretic series in "Use of Parallel Processors in Meteorology" and a good introduction is Roland Stull's "Meteorology for Scientists and Engineers" and Donald Ahrens' "Meteorology Today With Infotrac: An Introduction to Weather, Climate, and the Environment" -- Stull and Ahrens are a good introductory set (although there are lots of others).

"Global Warming" is a nice, physically valid (just high school physics), mathematically valid, observationally valid explanation that fits the data and does not require "conspiracies."

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. You got it Coastie!
I think you've got the best explanation for the increasing Hurricane trend. HAARPS does not explain the trend. Global Warming does.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Slight problem with that...
The correlation between sea surface temps and hurricane frequency is not linear, and direct cause-and-effect is not well-supported by computer models. Of particular importance is the activity of upper-atmospheric winds, which can scatter or shear rising columns of air over warm water, preventing organization of a depression into a cyclone. These shearing winds are also part of the ocean-atmosphere linkage that global warming affects. In short, even as more depressions (baby storms) form, more shearing winds also form, and blow them away before they start spinning. There's even some evidence that increasing ocean temperatures will eventually lead to *fewer* organized storms (i.e., hurricanes) as the shearing winds become more stimulated. No one knows for sure.

In short, global warming may, or may not, end up having an impact on hurricane frequency and strength, but right now, it's no more than a small increment above background noise. Instead, the rising intensity and frequency of hurricanes in recent years is part of a natural hurricane cycle that is reaching its peak.

Take a look here if you want to see the pattern yourself in the raw frequency data:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml

The biggest driver of this cycle is decadal oscillations in total thermal content of the Atlantic...decadal as in, it takes decades for the cycle to rise and fall. The mechanisms driving decadal oscillations is ancient, and predates industrial activity. It is also poorly understood. Sea surface temps do not follow a simple pattern of general enhancement as the total thermal content of the ocean rises. The factors involved are complex and sometimes counterintuitive; among other things they involve the confluence and re-direction of deep ocean currents, and aberrations in ocean-atmosphere couplings called teleconnections.

Anyone who draws simple conclusions (such as "Global warming has nothing to do with hurricanes," or "Global warming is increasing hurricane strength, and it's going to get a lot worse") is at best overextrapolating from incomplete data or crude models. At worst, they are bending science to meet a political agenda. You can go out on the web right now and find articles and research that draw one or the other conclusion, often adamantly so. Hmm. That kind of says it all, doesn't it? Meanwhile, I notice there are very few articles out there saying the sun won't rise tomorrow or that gravity will be at half-strength in November.

Politics and science are every bit as nightmarish a mix as religion and science.

We all need to stay vigilant about letting our politics select which data drive our science. That goes double for highly-political people, like most of us here.

Peace.


"The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."
-- Bertrand Russell

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The simulations I did (MatLab on a Sun Workstation) and the much bigger
simulations that I saw on a parallel processor (on a NOAA grant) would lead me to conclude otherwise.

Of particular importance is the activity of upper-atmospheric winds, which can scatter or shear rising columns of air over warm water, preventing organization of a depression into a cyclone.
    In the models I saw and used this was accounted for - not in the PC MatLab - but in the more sophisticated Sun W/S modelling.


In short, global warming may, or may not, end up having an impact on hurricane frequency and strength, but right now, it's no more than a small increment above background noise. Instead, the rising intensity and frequency of hurricanes in recent years is part of a natural hurricane cycle that is reaching its peak.
    Per Dr. Marburger, Lee Raymond, PhD, and Ray Irani, PhD, and Dave O'Reilly, PhD, and David Cole, PhD. I am also a PhD - and I say that global warming is increasing the intensity of tropical storms.


"decadal as in, it takes decades for the cycle to rise and fall."
    - I know what decadal is - I am also a Doc from a little iron/steel/banking technical institute in Pittsburgh. I am also an Extra Class amateur radio operator and do use satellite amateur communications - and I am up to date on sun spot and ionospheric literature.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes! i've studied the HAARP Research-weather manipulation
these hurricanes smell like they have been assisted, amped up
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tin foil hats...
...run amok!

Post #9 by Psephos presents a reasoned discussion based on science, not hysterics. The current upswing in hurricane activity has happened before and will happen again. Large-scale oceanic oscillations like ENSO and NAO drive many of these changes.

Regarding MatLab simulations on a Sun workstation (post #10) - are you serious? This is hilarious. The GCMs used for climate modeling run on machines like BlueSky at NCAR, which has 1,600 POWER4 processors. If a climate run on BlueSky is like Rita then a Matlab run on a Sun workstation is like breaking wind. I have no clue what "...more sophisticated Sun W/S modelling" refers to. But I do know this - meteorology codes like MM5 and WRF (since Stull was mentioned in post #5) are not suitable for addressing the global warming problem or the possible effect on hurricane formation. I also didn't recognize any names (presumably listed as authorities) in post #10, so I Googled each of the names (sans "Ph.D."), followed by "atmospheric science", but did not turn up very much. Contrast that with the Google return for "william gray atmospheric science" and check out this page -

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/links/hurricanes.htm

Seems to agree with the fine information Psephos provided in post #9.

Regarding HAARP, the original post by King_Crimson ("...It is basically studying ways to control the weather for use in combat situations") is ludicrous, and very 21st-Century schizoid man. Since its inception HAARP has drawn fire from every tin-foil-hatter around (ionospheric physics being more esoteric and thus more pliable by know-nothings), and comments found in this thread (especially the original post) are just more of the same.
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