Losing a Church, Keeping the Faith (Catholic Gays)

[TheReligiousLeft]

I'm not gay, but I thought this was a really honest and open piece, looking at how the Catholic (although one could insert most churches) church makes Homosexuals feel. Anyway, check it out.
<http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/opinion/19SULL.html?th>
By ANDREW SULLIVAN

Published: October 19, 2003


Last week, something quite banal happened at St. Benedict's Church in the Bronx. A gay couple were told they could no longer sing in the choir. Their sin was to have gotten a civil marriage license in Canada. One man had sung in the choir for 32 years; the other had joined the church 25 years ago. Both had received certificates from the church commending them for "noteworthy participation." But their marriage had gained publicity; it was even announced in The New York Times. This "scandal" led to their expulsion. The archbishop's spokesman explained that the priest had "an obligation" to exclude them.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a very small event. But it is a vivid example of why this last year has made the once difficult lives of gay Catholics close to impossible. The church has gone beyond its doctrinal opposition to emotional or sexual relationships between gay men and lesbians to an outspoken and increasingly shrill campaign against them. Gay relationships were described by the Vatican earlier this year as "evil." Gay couples who bring up children were described as committing the equivalent of "violence" against their own offspring. Gay men are being deterred from applying to seminaries and may soon be declared unfit for the priesthood, even though they commit to celibacy. The American Catholic church has endorsed a constitutional amendment that would strip gay couples of any civil benefits of any kind in the United States.

For the first time in my own life, I find myself unable to go to Mass. During the most heated bouts of rhetoric coming from the Vatican this summer, I felt tears of grief and anger welling up where once I had been able to contain them. Faith beyond resentment began to seem unreachable.

[Teledu]

1. But after all the lawsuits...what do you expect??

The very forces that are calling for the heads of church leaders who have allowed sexual abuse to occur (Nearly 96% of the priests involved in last year's spate of lawsuits against dioceses all over the country were gay priests) are the ones decrying the church's treatment of gays.
Let's be clear about one thing. The church's doctrine openly opposes homosexuality. I realize your post recognizes that the gays 'promise celibacy', I will remind you that all of the priests who are defendants of sexual abuse did the same. The church has been placed in a similar position as the Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scouts, who had been allowing gay leaders, has since been the subject of lawsuits based on molestation by gay leaders, so, in order to protect their young people, as well as prevent future lawsuits, they have banned gays from becoming leaders. And what has happened? The Boy Scouts are Public Enemy #1 for 'gay discrimination'.
There are psychologists around who deny a correlation between sexual abuse of BOYS by homosexual men. But the actuality, in both the priest lawsuits, and the scout leader lawsuits, points to a near-unaminous number of homosexual priests and scout leaders involved in these cases.
I can already anticipate the posts following mine of those who will not read what I have written closely and scream 'There is no evidence linking sexual abuse to gays' But we are talking about the preponderance of BOYS who have been abused in the priest and boy scout cases. A full 95%. And the leaders in question have all been male. And those males have to be gay by definition. The higher profile priests have admitted to being gay.
Another issue I can anticipate by those who do not read closely is: So you are saying just because a person is gay means they will molest? No. I never said that, but I am contending that since almost all the abuse in these lawsuits has been committed by gay men, the only thing left for the church and Boy Scouts to do to protect their young is to ban gays from becoming priests and scout leaders. It's unfortunate, I know.
As for the gay choir members in your article, I don't understand banning them unless they are in contact with children. Sounds like an extreme and isolated case. I see no reason to abandon your faith over that. If you do, it probably wasn't all that strong to begin with.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. since you have anticipated my post, it won't come as a shock to you

when I tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. More than that, your post is offensive.

First of all, most of the abuse of these children had NOTHING to do with gay priests. Those priests were pedofiles. There is a difference even if you don't understand it.

If you want to to talk about the majority of sexual abuse that is perpetrated against children in this country and how to prevent it, then we had better decide how to exclude heterosexual men from being around young girls. Most of those men aren't pedofiles, most of them are otherwise sexually orientated towards grown women.

Unless you are willing to discuss keeping all straight men away from any interaction with women under the age of eighteen, then I suggest it is not child abuse you are worried about. Indeed, I will assume you are just another garden variety homophobe.

[Scree]

5. Calling someone names, then crying to the moderators

without debating my points takes real courage Cheswick. First and foremost, all of the priests involved in the molestation lawsuits against young boys who came forward about their sexuality have admitted being homosexual. This group is led by Father Geoghan. Furthermore, it was reported on MSNBC that 96% of the victims were boys. So...all the priests who attacked boys whose preferences we know about are gay.....Can you offer some evidence that any of the priests who molested boys were not gay? If so, PROVE IT. Or are you content with namecalling, then whining to the moderators.
And to address your call of keeping straight men from being isolated with underage females. Uh....aren't we already doing that? No sensible man OR parent of a young girl would permit such a situation to exist.
So you ask me to discuss matters. Do you really want a discussion, or would you prefer to screech to the moderators once again. My guess? The latter since it's far easier to label someone than to come forward with facts.
And by the way: Marlins in five.

[DrBB]

6. Child molester characteristics

MOLESTER CHARACTERISTICS

One of the myths regarding child molesters is that they “look different” or behave differently from others in some way. Here are some statistics describing child molesters:

*   97% are male
*   91% are heterosexual
*   91% are religious
*   75% are married or formerly married
*   73% are Caucasian
*   65% earn a middle income or above
*   48% are college educated

• Stepfathers are 7 times more likely to abuse than biological fathers, however, abuse by a biological parent tends to be more severe. (A child who is abused by a biological parent is at higher risk of sustaining an injury from the abuse than those abused by a non-biological parent.)

Source: This information was adapted from The Medlin Training Institute website, sexualdeviancy.com.

One of the cardinal rules on DU: cite evidence to support your position. Here's your main assertion: "First and foremost, all of the priests involved in the molestation lawsuits against young boys who came forward about their sexuality have admitted being homosexual. This group is led by Father Geoghan." Where's your citation, "Scree"?

on edit: Medlin page is down. Info abstracted at http://www.georgiacenterforchildren.org/statistics.html

[Creideiki]

7. I'm at a loss as to what this has to do with anything

Boy Scouts and abusive priests means that the Catholic church had to expel two members from the choir because they got married?

Homosexuality, from what Catholic friends and my own research tell me, isn't anathema in the church, anyway. They at least do lip service to "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Parents aren't supposed to cut off children that are gay. Their only possible beef is that they didn't marry in a Catholic church, so the church won't recognize their marriage. But do they kick out a Catholic member who got married in another church? If they know another member has had sex outside of marriage do they get expelled?

[Warpy]

2. It could be a lot worse.

They could have been women.

Banning gay men from the priesthood is beyond stupid. Study after study cites most pedophiles are heterosexual, married men. Heterosexual priests are simply taking advantage of the supply of young boys the church supplies them.

As usual, Rome gets it completely wrong. Why can't these celibate old men admit they know absolutely nothing of human sexuality?

[The Zanti Regent]

4. Who cares about Mr Bareback?

Idiot is like an abused spouse, GOP tells this idiot to get lost, yet he always goes back for more abuse by the Fred Phelps types.

BTW--I DO consider it IMMORAL for an HIV+ person to engage in bareback sex with another person.

[Liberator_Rev]

8. Of course pedophile priests prey on BOYS!

As a former priest, it is easy to explain why pedophile priests prey on BOYS, rather than girls.
It has nothing to do with their PREFERENCE, but everything to do with OPPORTUNITY.
1) Priests are ASSUMED to be be Heterosexual because the Church considers homosexuality to be abnormal and sinful and (at least in the past) homosexuals were not allowed to continue to ordinaration if and when they were found out during the many years it took to get through seminary.
2) Priests were assumed to be tempted by GIRLS and WOMEN and kept away from close contact with them ESPECIALLY private one on one contact.
3) Private one and one relationships with young males were assumed to be "pure" and were considered beneficial as it might lead to such young men having a vocation to the priesthood.
4) Because of the above, the Church has promoted the practice of "altar boys", and frowned on the idea of "altar girls", neither of which are really needed by the priest to celebrate mass.