Unspeakable Cruelty to Women

[maha]

The girl was 17. An age, in Peru, where it is not unusual to face a pregnancy without a way to assure that it will be a healthy one.

She discovered, about 12 weeks on, that the fetus was growing without a brain and with no chance of survival. There was a great chance that delivery would jeopardize her own health. The girl sought an abortion under Peru's restrictive laws, which can allow the procedure to protect the mother.

"This abortion could be legal in Peru, but the doctor said no," said Susana Chavez, a nurse and midwife by training and an activist, by choice, for the Peruvian feminist group Flora Tristan.

The baby was delivered, face first and with fluid where there should have been a brain. Hospital workers forced the girl to breast-feed the infant, with its shriveled body and distorted features, until death.

"Today this woman is still in psychiatric care," Chavez said in an interview.

http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-vpcoc233506317oct23,0,4569145.column?coll=ny-news-columnists

[CO Liberal]

1. Every Right-to-Lifer Who's Opposed to All Abortions Should Read This

There ARE cases where abortion is the viable option. This story shows what happens when choices are restricted.

[demnan]

2. Did Jesus say anything in the bible about abortion?

No. Were there abortions in biblical times? Most likely. Then why is the Catholic church, and the governments that abide by their stringent views, so adamant about it?

[maha]

6. Not until the 19th century ...

The notion that there was something immoral about abortion really didn't take hold until the latter part of the 19th century.

Betcha didn't know that abortions were LEGAL in the U.S. until the latter part of the 19th century. Good historical background here:

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_000400_abortion.htm

As married women moved to lower their fertility rates after 1830, abortion became a widespread practice in the United States. Abortionists advertised in the daily press and pharmaceutical firms competed in a lucrative market of purported abortifacients. Women spoke to each other and to their doctors in straightforward terms about their abortions. When physicians estimated American abortion rates in the 1860s and 1870s, they used figures strikingly close to those of the 1960s and 1970s: approximately one abortion for every four live births.

[Undemcided]

26. 19th century?

Hippocrates was born in 460 BC and his oath became the foundation of modern doctoring.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

[maha]

27. Fun Facts of Modern History

One cannot tell from that quote WHY Hippocrates wouldn't give abortive remedies to women; it wasn't necessarily because of morality. It would have been dangerous medically.

The fact remains that in MODERN history, abortion generally wasn't considered immoral until the latter part of the 19th century.

[veganwitch]

28. it was often easier...

to have the child and expose it (leave it to the elements to die) than do attempt a surgical abortion. this was the case if the child was deformed, unhealthy, born during a bad time (famine, war etc.) or illegitimate.

herbal remedies tend to work, when they work, only in the first 6-8 weeks of pregnancy.

women have been controlling the amount of children they have, through various methods, since the beginning of time.

[Undemcided]

30. Immoral

I guess this ties in with more respect for life generally.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Doctors weren't usually involved...

Women went to other women (of course, there were NO female doctors so long ago).

Midwives delivered most babies. Certain women also knew how to end a pregnancy.

[happyslug]

11. No, but it was addressed in the bible

and other teachings of the Catholic Church till 1869. Abortion, prior to 1869 was viewed as a venial sin (i.e. not a violation of any of the ten Commnadments). Mortal sins are acts that violate one or more of the Ten Commandments (Adultry is a Mortal sin, Lying under oath to hurt someone is a mortal sin {Clinton's lie as to having sex with Monica thus was NOT a mortal sin for he intended no harm to Monica or anyone else} Murder and Manslaughter are mortal sins, but fornication is not).

Abortion prior to 1869 was a venial sin (Except in the last trimester when it rose to the level of a Mortal Sin). If you want to Read the whole Catholic rule prior to 1869 read Roe vs Wade. In Roe the US Supreme Court declared that the English Common Law rules as to Abortion were protected under the right to privacy under the US Consitution. The English Common law rule was based on the Catholic Rule as to Abortion that existed during the Middle ages and lasted as Catholic Doctrine till 1869.

In 1869 Pope Pius decided to change the doctrine to the present Doctrine that calls all abortions Murder (and as Murder a Mortal Sin under the Ten Commandments). Pius had just lost most of the Papal States to Italian Unification. He still had Rome but only do to the intervention of French Troops sent by Napoleon III (Which were withdraw once Prussia under Bismarck had defeated France in the Franco-Prussian War of 1871). Pius was also considered insane by many of his own Bishops but would stay as Pope till 1878 (He had been very progressive in his early years but by the time of the Italian Unification had gone not only reactionary but probally insane). His problem seems to be that he wanted to lead the reforms and unification of Italy on his and the Vatican's agenda NOT the agenda of the people or Italy. His change in the Doctrine has been viewed as an attack on the formation of the modern Italian state than a reform of church doctrine. He tried to strengthen the Church but failed for he opposed the national unity movements of the 19th Century but offered no positive alternative to it.

For informaion on Pius see:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm

[calm_blue_ocean]

3. here is another abortion sory

but this one is completely fictional:

"Conversation Between A Fetus and Her Doctor"

One day a fetus was scheduled to undergo a medical procedure. The pregnant woman who was bearing the fetus was relatively poor. True, she had a car and television set and even basic cable, but she was in poverty when compared to many of her fellow citizens in the U.S. Adding to this difficulty, the man who had supplied the spermatozoa that germinated the fetus had made his opinion clear. His opinion was that he did not want to marry the pregnant woman and most especially did not want to pay child support payments for the next 18 years. As you can see, the pregnant woman was in a difficult spot.

Fortunately, the man with the leaky penis was willing to provide money for an abortion. He even found a doctor who would agree to perform the medical procedure for one thousand dollars. On top of contributing the one thousand dollars, the man was willing (eager, even) to provide transportation to and from the medical clinic where the abortion procedures were performed. The man had to miss most of a day of work, but he was willing to make this sacrifice so that the pregnant woman could get the medical treatment that they both desired her to have.

When the man and woman got to the medical clinic, it turned out that the doctor would not accept an uncertified check from the man. However, the doctor would accept a credit card payment in consideration of the medical procedure that was to be performed that day. Fortunately, the man indeed had a credit card with over a thousand dollars of unused credit. Once this fact was established in the lobby of the medical clinic, the credit card payment was processed over the computer system of the clinic by the clinic’s secretary. This kind of payment was routine and the secretary handled the payment procedure quickly and competently.

The pregnant woman and the fetus in her uterus had to wait for a few hours after the payment was made while preparatory work for the medical procedure was performed. It took so long because the fetus had been conceived 6 months earlier and was therefore large in size and “viable” (medical term meaning technically able to survive outside of the uterus when appropriate medical care is provided). However, when the abortion procedure began at last, a curious thing happened. It turned out that this fetus could talk. This is highly unusual because most fetuses are not able to talk because of a lack of mental development and also because of the amniotic fluid that surrounds them. Nevertheless, this particular fetus could talk and decided to have one last chat with the doctor before her termination.

FETUS: Hello doctor! I hope your credentials are good. Have you performed many abortion procedures on fetuses as advanced as me?

DOCTOR: Oh, you startled me. I have indeed performed thousands of abortions, but I must admit that you are the first talking fetus I have encountered.

FETUS: Well, please, don’t let me distract you, but there is something I wanted to discuss and I was really having trouble making myself heard before you put the pregnant woman who bears me into the surgical support system.

PREGNANT WOMAN (groggily): Whaaa, what’s goan onnn?

DOCTOR: Well, fetus, I am your doctor, too. I guess I owe you the courtesy of a quick consultation. However, it must be quick -- I have another abortion procedure scheduled in Room B in an hour.

FETUS: Well, I was just wondering if we could, like, not do the abortion?

DOCTOR: What a curious thing to suggest. It is quite clear to me as a medical expert that the pregnant woman who bears you, as well as the man with the credit card, very much want this procedure to be performed and performed safely.

FETUS: See, that’s the thing. I wasn’t consulted. I was kind of thinking that if you could use your persuasive powers as a medical expert, then we could convince the pregnant woman who bears me to forego this procedure and carry me to term.

DOCTOR: Okay, let’s think this through. I would have to refund the thousand dollars as a matter of medical ethics if I did not do the abortion. However, I am a relatively wealthy doctor and I do not absolutely need that money. Still, the pregnant woman who bears you has requested this procedure and I do have duties to her.

FETUS: I did want to talk to her, but I was having trouble making myself heard with all this amniotic fluid in my mouth . . .

DOCTOR (interrupting): Yes, yes, don’t you see, that is the point . . . she provides you with a cushion of amniotic fluid, she provides you with nutrient laden blood, she provides you with antibodies. You can’t continue homeostatic existence without her. She owns you. The laws of this particular state even say so.

FETUS: I appreciate the pregnant woman and all she has done for me over the last 6 months -- you must believe me I do. Still, if you talked to her, as a medical expert, you may be able to convince her to carry me to term.

DOCTOR: As a medical expert, I can’t do that in good faith. Do you realize that her chances of dying childbirth may be as much as 66 in a million. The chances of her dying from this abortion procedure are significantly less than that. You do not want the pregnant woman to die after all she has done for you.

FETUS: No, I don’t want that.

DOCTOR: Plus, the pregnant woman’s good health may be at stake. By continuing to bear you, this pregnant woman might be damaging her health.

PREGNANT WOMAN: (unintelligible, muffled sound)

FETUS: What do you mean *could* be damaging her health? Either I am or I’m not.

DOCTOR: You see when they wrote the late term abortion law they did not say “one can only get a late term abortion if the life and health of the pregnant woman is in jeopardy.” Rather, these abortion procedures are permitted in this state for any reason or no reason at all. Therefore, as a medical expert, it is not within the legally prescribed scope of my duties to inquire into these circumstances on a case-by-case basis. I am to focus efficiently on the cutting and sucking, as it were, and leave those other potential circumstances to the sound discretion and judgment of the pregnant woman.

FETUS: (gulps) Yes, but the pregnant woman is under economic duress. She is living in poverty. I think that is the real reason she wants this medical procedure.

DOCTOR: Look, pregnant women should be provided for. They should have good sex education at an early age with a view to avoiding unwanted pregnancy. They should be provided with access to affordable contraceptive devices so they can engage in intercourse without fear of pregnancy. If an unwanted pregnancy should occur, the pregnant woman should be confident in the knowledge that her fetus will be adopted by a caring, able family upon its birth. However, society has not met all of these conditions yet. If they had, I would wake up the pregnant woman and let her know, but we are not there yet. You were simply conceived too soon!

FETUS: How about adoption? I hear that 98% of adopted children live above the poverty line. Adoption, that’s the ticket.

DOCTOR: Not so fast. Your skin, if you can even call that underdeveloped dermis you have “skin,” could turn out to be black. We don’t know at this point. You must understand that black infants have much poorer prospects in the adoption process. To force the pregnant woman to carry you to term could result in acts of racism against*you*.

FETUS: I see your point. Besides, how would the pregnant woman feel if worst came to worst and I ended up as a ward of the state? It could haunt her for life.

DOCTOR: (inserting a retractable propeller into pregnant woman’s vagina): So that about wraps up this consultation.

FETUS: But, but, oowwwww, my organs, my liver, my limbs, oh, the pain.

DOCTOR: Let’s have some suction. Nurse.

THE END

[maha]

4. Interesting

... that the entire conversation is between the fetus and the doctor, and that the woman contributes little more than animal sounds.

The biggest difference between anti-choice and pro-choice people is that anti-choice people don't recognize women as human. We're just ambulatory major appliances to them, or else brood animals. But not human.

The writer of this piece of crap obviously doesn't consider women to be competent to make decisions about their own bodies.

[slappypan]

5. Do you have any cute stories

about what a fetus with NO BRAIN would say?

[Malva Zebrina]

7. talking fetus does not heap guilt on me and would not

it is first of all intellectually dishonest--it's primary purpose attempts to heap guilt upon other people who are not up to the imposed standards of responsibility no matter how abusive to that human being--she is guilty of murder? Then take here and her talking fetus to court--maybe the prosecuter could get the fetus up on the stand to testify. After that see to it that she is punished--by the death penalty perhaps for killing the tallking little four celled fetus and for wanting to take control over her own body which the state does not own. This woman, and women who seek abortion are doing NOTHING that is against the law--but there are those who wish to make her body the property of the state, as well as her mind--heap guilt--torture her mind--make her go insane--that ought to show a democracy that a woman's body belongs to the state and the old boys running things for the Christian abortion extremeists. The best thing to do is to go to an adoption agency and volunteer to adopt all of those talking fetuses that some may feel take precedence over the life of a born human being, whose morals are abhored for their selfishness--that story of the young girl in Peru is just inhumane--my pity to her and her family--I have seen more than one born without a brain, without a mouth--and die shortly after birth--people want to force pregnancy upon her just like a man years ago in Rumania--Cecesque--forced pregnancy good--adoption not good? Where are all the volunteers for life volunteering to adopt these talking fetuses? Maybe there are hospitals with talking babies just waiting for an adoptive, moralistic, upright standing person to take them under their wing and adopt them




This is a picture of the head and neck of an embryo--but I have not heard one talk yet.

[maha]

8. Second Amendment Rights for the Pre-Born!

They don't want to be aborted? Let 'em shoot it out!

(Or, no point arguin' with the anti-women types. They wouldn't recognize true humanity if it bit their butts.)

[Malva Zebrina]

9. sorry

can't make the picture appear--

on edit--found another picture

[calm_blue_ocean]

10. That is the point of the story

You can't possibly feel bad for a six-month-from-conception fetus because these fetuses can't talk.

That is why the story would never induce a guilt reaction in anybody. That is what prevents the story from being maudlin or melodramatic -- it is just too incredible.

Talking fetuses are complete fantasy!

[maha]

12. And the woman in your story ...

... wasn't allowed to talk, either, which I find interesting.

An anencephalic infant will never talk. Do you grasp that?

I didn't want to do this, but perhaps a dose of cold reality is called for ...



This infant will NOT live more than a few hours. To force the girl to carry an anencephalic infant to term is bad enough, but to force her to breast feed, knowing death is inevitable, puts a spin on cruelty worthy of Nazi concentration camps.

But she's only a cow, right? She's just supposed to drop her calf and not cause any trouble ...

[calm_blue_ocean]

13. Are you trying to say that I agree with the abortion law of Peru?

I have taken no such position.

[maha]

14. Of course you haven't.

You lack the moral courage to be forthright about your own beliefs. Instead, you present some lamebrain fiction about talking fetuses to show how "inhumane" abortion is. A fetus can't talk; therefore, you imply, we pro-choice types don't feel compunction about killing them.

And the woman in your story couldn't say much, either, which reveals a lot you didn't intend.

I think most people who are generally opposed to elective abortion mean well, but the really rabid anti-choice activists are different. As a rule, these people have a fear and loathing of women that is palpable. That's why the act of cruelty perpetrated on this poor 17-year-old girl means nothing to you.

As a woman, and as a woman who gave birth to two children and breast fed them both, I found the story outrageous. I want to howl at the bestiality of it; I want to find that poor girl and hold her and weep with her. And then I want to find the men who perpetrated that cruelty upon her and smack them.

But since women are just cows to you, I supposed you don't understand that.

[calm_blue_ocean]

15. I don't think women are cows

I chose to make the woman not talking to heighten the fact that this crazy fetus was trying to take her choice away from her and she could say nothing in her own defense. This enhances the drama of the story and makes the reader sympathetic to the woman (as I clearly succeeded doing in your case).

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calm_blue_ocean]

17. Please stop dehumanizing me

I am a person, too. With feelings.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calm_blue_ocean]

19. Now you hurting my feelings again.

Why do you keep insulting me? I am beginning to think you are a mean person. Get a hold of yourself. I bet you are capable of being nicer and that is what you should do now.

[chiburb]

20. Excuse me, are you here because...

The thread you started in GD on abortion was locked as flamebait? Do you think you can continue here unseen?
Quit while you're behind.

[maha]

22. Or, when you see you are in a hole,

stop digging! :-)

[maha]

21. This is for your own good.

Think of it as tough love.

[maha]

23. Actually, I should thank you.

First, please notice that I didn't write the message #18, which was removed. That was somebody else insulting you.

Second, you and a few others on DU inspired an essay I wrote today on abortion, Terri Schiavo, and the nature of true compassion. You can read it here.

[chiburb]

24. Sorry he won't see your thank you...

He was tombstoned over in GD...

[maha]

25. One down, more to go ... n/t

[arikara]

31. Incredible

What a piece of crap. And I'm being very polite here.

[rini]

32. I've seen it happen in this country

n/t