Schiavo brain scan: "A black hole"

[maha]

...They (neurologists) say most lay people, including her parents, have trouble reconciling the image of her tracking a balloon with her eyes or smiling at her mother's kiss with what doctors and judges say are the facts: She is unaware. She is not responding. She is unconscious. But, like most patients in a persistent vegetative state, she has wake and sleep cycles characterized by involuntary movements that seem to mimic emotions.

"What's gotten the Legislature to act is the coverage of her blinking and moving. They think maybe she's disabled or retarded," said Bill Allen, co-director of the Florida Bioethics Network. "I think people would take a different view if every time they saw her blinking, an expert neurologist would explain a picture of her brain scan. It would show her brain is mush."

Ron Cranford, one of five neurologists who examined Terri Schiavo and her brain scans for an October 2002 court hearing, said her cerebral cortex, the part of the brain that controls thought and awareness, is severely atrophied and has all but disintegrated. He said that process began when she collapsed from a potassium imbalance in 1990, enduring five critical minutes without oxygen, and has progressed over the years.

"There is hardly any cerebral cortex left," Cranford said. "It looks like a black hole."

Read article from Orland Sentinel here:

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/7122138.htm

[SlavesandBulldozers]

1. right to die

the fact that the only way she can die is by her feeding tube being removed provides a niche where one can argue for a more humane way of dying.
Those predominantly pro-life are, in this case, pro-lifing by the end of a very delicate string. They know that the only reason why this woman is still living a life without dignity is because the pro-lifers have fought, tooth-and-nail, against every means by which she could die a dignified death. By removing any possible alternatives they have necessitated the death-by-starvation option - rather than fought it.

[hlthe2b]

5. Jack Kevorkian, Terry needs you....

Yeah, I know this comment will open the floodgates. But, we have to eventually deal with this issue of "right to die" with dignity and that there may be compassion in some of what ole Jack was trying to do-- even if the messenger was a wee bit on the creepy side.

We do far better by animals, IMO.. Yet, most veterinarians anguish over those decisions-- wanting to be assured that quality of life was essentially gone for the pet. I sure don't see much quality of life for Terry. But, I do believe in treading carefully on this. As some DUers with disabled children have pointed out so poignantly, where does it start and end?

If Terry made her wishes known, it sounds like there needs to be some kind of outside objective, mediation to work with her parents to try to help them understand the apparent parodox between what they see from Terry and what is really going on, in terms of the neurological response. The best outcome would be for the family to agree on a decision here. So, very tragic, but something society is eventually going to HAVE to deal with. How many tens of thousands of these patients can we AFFORD to keep in long term care, given the pending crises for medicare/medicaid funding? Perpetual care for them may mean very tough decisions or even denial of care for those whose prognosis is far more positive.

[maha]

6. Euthenasia

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not in favor of euthenasia. The neurologists say that Schiavo lacks the neurological apparatus to feel pain; therefore, withdrawing her feeding tube is not inhumane in her case.

[tlb]

22. Not right to die, it's right to kill.

She left no instructions for such eventualities, which removes it from the right to die catagory. There is no proof that would be her wish.

Instead the husband wants to kill her. This is an entirely separate issue. Since the doctors admit she is in no pain, I think the Florida authorities are correct to err on the side of caution.

[maha]

23. It's none of the "Florida authorities" business

A number of courts had looked at Schiavo's medical records and had ruled on the side of the husband. Florida law says the decision belongs to next of kin. There was no reason for Jeb Bush to intervene, except to make political capital for himself.

The parents of Nancy Cruzan went through something similar a few years ago, except in this case the parents wanted to let their daughter die, and the state of Missouri butted in and fought them. The point is that it isn't the Gubmint's business.

[theivoryqueen]

2. there is a lot we do not understand about brain function

and it is said that we only utilize a small portion - so maybe even if a scan shows a "black hole" there is more going on than is apparent. Smiling at kisses doesn't happen if your brain is gone.

[ant]

3. but there's also a lot we DO understand about it

Of course, if you believe we don't understand it, I'm not sure how you can know that "smiling at kisses doesn't happen if your brain is gone." Maybe it does.

By the way, the "only using 10% of our brains" thing is a myth. (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm)

[dfong63]

7. speaking of brain myths,

it's also a myth that brain cells don't regenerate. it was believed until recent years that once a person is grown, and certainly as an adult, that the cells of the brain only die and are not replaced. but guess what, it's not true. the history of medical science is full of such mistakes. medical experts are often just plain wrong about the body's capacity for healing and recovery.

[maha]

10. Once again,

Her brain cortex is entirely gone. It will not grow back.

[maha]

4. Projection

Yes, there is a lot we do not know about brain function. However, we do know for sure that brain function requires a brain.

Well-meaning people are persuaded by The Photograph of Shiavo smiling and by some highly edited videos of Ms. Schiavo that the brain scans are wrong. They look at these pictures and believe they are seeing reaction and emotion and sentience. But this is projection, not unlike "seeing" a cloud as a fuzzy white bunny, or finding the face of Jesus in a plate of spaghetti.

Ultimately, I think the fight over Schiavo says more about our fears and cloudy thinking about death than it does about Schiavo.

[dfong63]

8. we also know that maintaining bodily functions requires a brain

Yes, there is a lot we do not know about brain function. However, we do know for sure that brain function requires a brain.

clearly, Ms Schiavo possesses a brain. the degree of its current functionality, not its existence, is in dispute. so what's your point?

[maha]

9. She's missing brain CORTEX, but not brain STEM.

Please read the article.

She's missing the brain CORTEX, which is the part of the brain needed for consciousness, thinking, voluntary motion, awareness, self-identity, and just about everything else assciated with being sentient. But she still has a brain STEM, which controls breathing, blood pressure, heartbeat, and involuntary motion, such as sneezing.

This page explains brain parts:

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/sagittal.html

[dfong63]

11. if schiavo were a criminal on trial for some heinous crime,

... it would require a unanimous jury to impose the death penalty. but she isn't a criminal. and the "jury" consisting of her family and her husband, is not unanimous. it seems to me that common sense would dictate that she should be allowed to live.

[maha]

12. It seems to me common sense that's she's already gone.

I'm opposed to the death penalty as well as euthenasia. Schiavo's case is neither.

[booksenkatz]

13. I once saw a headless turtle

When we lived in Florida on a pond, I once came upon a headless turtle in my yard. Apparently an alligator had snapped at its face and taken its head, yet there was still just enough of the brain stem left to leave that poor creature alive and flailing. There was a hole there at the neck, and being the animal freak that I am, I was trying to think of a way to get food down that hole! But I knew it was hopeless. I watched that thing suffer for a few more days before it crawled off to finish dying its miserable death. Looking at Terri, looking at her brain scan, I'm reminded of that turtle. In fact, you could even say that the turtle had more brain than Terri has, because you could tell that the turtle was suffering and feeling pain. Terri is even further gone than that turtle was.

The interview with the husband on LKL the other night changed my mind. I had been in favor of turning Terri over to her family and letting them keep her alive, I had been in favor of coming down on the side of "life" when things are in doubt; but the brain scans totally changed my feelings about it. I would certainly want my husband to fight for me, and it sounds like Terri's husband is fighting for her right to die with dignity. And how horrified I'd be if one of the Bushes stepped in and overrode what my husband was trying to do for me.

How can anyone compare a disabled person with Terri's case? If you want to live, well holy cow, of course you should live! I certainly am one who believes that every life is valuable, but if you have said that you don't want to live that way, you should have the right to say ENOUGH. Or to have your husband say ENOUGH when you cannot.

It's just a horrible, horrible case, any way you slice it, but it is definitely time for this society to examine/ask/answer these questions.

[maha]

15. Good analogy.

The brain scan result ended the argument for me, too. If she were just brain damaged or just in a coma, I'd agree that she should be kept alive even if there was little or no hope for recovery. But the fact is, she's gone.

You are right that it's time for people to ask these questions, because the questions are not going away. Medical technology has blurred the line between life and death, and we need to clafify what "a life" is before we end up with warehouses full of animated protoplasm we can't bring ourselves to let go.

[Old and In the Way]

14. If we did this to our pets, we'd be considered inhumane.

Keeping the shell of Mary Schiavo alive to make the parents feel better is a supremely selfish act on their part. Do they really think their daughter would want to subjected to 13 years of non-life? I wouldn't.....I wonder how many of the so-called "pro-lifers" supporting her living dead state would opt to be kept alive like Mary, then to exit with a dignified death?

This reminds me of the story "johnny Got His Gun". It was about a soldeir who lost his limbs and all exterior senses. The only way he knew he was alive was by the sun warming his body during the day.

When he was finally able to make contact with the outside world (forget how), he made his desire to die known.

[maha]

16. Old and Cranky

I wonder how many of those right to lifers would want Schiavo kept alive if the only medical procedure that could save her was an abortion?

[Old and In the Way]

17. Hey, who's old and cranky?

Watch it or you'll get this leadlined cane rapped on yer knee!

Yeah, that'd give them a major brain-sprain....

[kskiska]

18. He blinked his eyes in Morse Code

or jerked his head.

[Sinistrous]

19. Deleted by originator.

.

[meow2u3]

20. I just can't resist this one

For a minute, I thought you guys were discussing Bush's black hole where his brain ought to be. :evilgrin:

[maha]

21. That would explain a lot!

:toast: