Robert Fisk: Somebody is Trying to Provoke a Civil War in Iraq

[realFedUp]

what do you think of Fisk's implying that
Americans in Iraq are LIHOPing this civil unrest but
can't put his finger on the facts yet? Is this a civil
war or not? Is Fisk usually a conspiratorialist?

http://www.dailymuslims.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1579&Itemid=221

Robert Fisk: Somebody is Trying to Provoke a Civil War in Iraq
TONY JONES, Reporter of an Australian TV

Friday, March 03, 2006

"The real question I ask myself is: who are these people who are trying to provoke the civil war? Now the Americans will say it's Al Qaeda, it's the Sunni insurgents. It is the death squads. Many of the death squads work for the Ministry of Interior. Who runs the Ministry of Interior in Baghdad? Who pays the Ministry of the Interior? Who pays the militia men who make up the death squads? We do, the occupation authorities."-Broadcast: 03/02/2006 ABC - Australia - Lateline

snip

ROBERT FISK: Yeah, I listened to Bush. It made me doubt myself when I heard him say that. I still go along and say what I said before - Iraq is not a sectarian society, but a tribal society. People are intermarried. Shiites and Sunnis marry each other. It's not a question of having a huge block of people here called Shiites and a huge block of people called Sunnis any more than you can do the same with the United States, saying Blacks are here and Protestants are here and so on. But certainly, somebody at the moment is trying to provoke a civil war in Iraq. Someone wants a civil war. Some form of militias and death squads want a civil war. There never has been a civil war in Iraq. The real question I ask myself is: who are these people who are trying to provoke the civil war? Now the Americans will say it's Al Qaeda, it's the Sunni insurgents. It is the death squads. Many of the death squads work for the Ministry of Interior. Who runs the Ministry of Interior in Baghdad? Who pays the Ministry of the Interior? Who pays the militia men who make up the death squads? We do, the occupation authorities. I'd like to know what the Americans are doing to get at the people who are trying to provoke the civil war. It seems to me not very much. We don't hear of any suicide bombers being stopped before they blow themselves up. We don't hear of anybody stopping a mosque getting blown up. We're not hearing of death squads all being arrested. Something is going very, very wrong in Baghdad. Something is going wrong with the Administration. Mr Bush says, "Oh, yes, sure, I talk to the Shiites and I talk to the Sunnis." He's talking to a small bunch of people living behind American machine guns inside the so-called Green Zone, the former Republican palace of Saddam Hussein, which is surrounded by massive concrete walls like a crusader castle. These people do not and cannot even leave this crusader castle. If they want to leave to the airport, they're helicoptered to the airport. They can't even travel on the airport road. What we've got at the moment is a little nexus of people all of whom live under American protection and talk on the telephone to George W Bush who says, "I've been talking to them and they have to choose between chaos and unity." These people can't even control the roads 50 metres from the Green Zone in which they work.

continued

[NYC]

1. Riverbend in Baghdad re civil war:

From the Monday, February 27, 2006 post:

I’m reading, and hearing, about the possibility of civil war. The possibility. Yet I’m sitting here wondering if this is actually what civil war is like. Has it become a reality? Will we look back at this in one year, two years… ten… and say, “It began in February 2006…”?

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

[realFedUp]

2. I like Riverbend's blog and wonder as a civilian female how much

she can know about what's really happening on the
ground?

[RazzleDazzle]

25. How insulting

You mean like BEING THERE isn't enough? Having friends and associates and relatives and neighbors and her own damn eyes isn't enough?

But especially the being "female" part -- that really limits her ability to know anything for sure, doesn't it?

Sheesh.

[realFedUp]

29. gee, I think you misread my post

a little hostile...
I am a female, so certainly don't judge on gender.
What I was wondering about was the isolation that
the curfews, Iraqi patrols etc. have had on receiving
news, truth etc.

[RazzleDazzle]

30. Mmm, well, that's a good point

But let's watch our language, shall we? You don't want to inadvertently add to or bolster the already high level of sexism here, I'm sure.

I am a female, so certainly don't judge on gender.

Actually, that's no guarantee -- if it were, there'd be no anti-woman women like Phyllis Schlaffly, Anne Coulter, Laura Ingram, and so forth.

[tatertop]

3. He is not sure if it is LIH or MIH

He admits it is unexplainable on the surface.
He is reserving judgement at this time.

[realFedUp]

6. he's not reserving judgement, but facts.

He's implying that the American military
who pass out the money etc. may be stirring
up civil war...not said is does he think
the militias are funded by American dollars
and tacticians?

What does anyone think of Fisk and his opinions in general?
I see the term "fisking" is now in the blog
lexicon.

fisking: n.
A point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or (especially) news story. A really stylish fisking is witty, logical, sarcastic and ruthlessly factual; flaming or handwaving is considered poor form. Named after Robert Fisk, a British journalist who was a frequent (and deserving) early target of such treatment.

I'm trying to determine if I should consider him a reliable
source of info...or just a crank?

[tatertop]

8. He's good.

Palestine haters don't like him because he
calls both sides of the issue.
But he is always fair and professional.
His weekly columns are on line for all to see.

[Terran1212]

16. A "Crank"?

One of the most respected journalists in the world, actually.

[endarkenment]

19. You should have used the wikipedia entry.

Edited: on reflection you aren't attacking Fisk you are asking if the attacks on Fisk have some validity.

"The term Fisking, or to Fisk, is a rightwing blogosphere term describing criticism that highlights perceived errors or other problems in a statement, article, or essay. It should be noted that these "errors" do not necessarily refer to factual inaccuracies, but more often to perceived inaccuracies in the analysis of presented facts.

Indeed, "Fisking" may appear, to those who do not share the viewpoint of the fisker, to be merely taking small parts of an article out of context and putting the worst possible interpretation on them, without regard to the connections between individual points.

Fisking was coined by detractors of award-winning British journalist Robert Fisk in 2001.<1> The term first appeared on either Instapundit or Andrew Sullivan's weblog, following a three-paragraph attack by Sullivan on Fisk.<1>"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

I think the attack on Fisk is put in the proper perspective by this definition.

[endarkenment]

20. You should have used the wikipedia entry.

"The term Fisking, or to Fisk, is a rightwing blogosphere term describing criticism that highlights perceived errors or other problems in a statement, article, or essay. It should be noted that these "errors" do not necessarily refer to factual inaccuracies, but more often to perceived inaccuracies in the analysis of presented facts.

Indeed, "Fisking" may appear, to those who do not share the viewpoint of the fisker, to be merely taking small parts of an article out of context and putting the worst possible interpretation on them, without regard to the connections between individual points.

Fisking was coined by detractors of award-winning British journalist Robert Fisk in 2001.<1> The term first appeared on either Instapundit or Andrew Sullivan's weblog, following a three-paragraph attack by Sullivan on Fisk.<1>"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

I think your attack on Fisk is put in the proper perspective by this definition.

[mrfrapp]

4. Wow

"I don't know if al-Zarqawi is alive or exists at the moment. I don't know if he isn't a sort of creature invented in order to fill in the narrative gaps, so to speak. What is going on in Iraq at the moment is extremely mysterious. I go to Iraq and I can't crack this story at the moment. Some of my colleagues are still trying to, but can't do it. It's not as simple as it looks. I don't believe we've got all these raving lunatics wandering around blowing up mosques. There's much more to this than meets the eye"

[NVMojo]

5. wow!

[MADem]

7. OK, do you all remember THIS STORY?????????

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm

Two British soldiers whose imprisonment prompted UK troops to storm a Basra police station were later rescued from militia, the Ministry of Defence says. ...Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0920/dailyUpdate.html
Reuters reported that local British commanders made their move after they learned the two soldiers, described as special forces commandos dressed in Arab clothing, had been handed over to local militia. "From an early stage I had good reason to believe the lives of the two soldiers were at risk," British Army Brigadier John Lorimer said in a statement to the media in London.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0510/S00242.htm
Captain Ken Masters, British chief police investigator in Basra died under mysterious circumstances. The cause of death was not mentioned. According to a Ministry of Defense spokesman, his death was "not due to hostile action" nor to natural causes.

Ken Masters was Commanding Officer of the Special Investigation Branch of the Royal Military Police. He was "responsible for the investigation of all in-theatre serious incidents, plus investigations conducted by the General Police Duties element of the Theatre Investigation Group." (Statement of Britain's Ministry of Defense, 16 Oct 2005).

In this capacity, Captain Masters was responsible for investigating the circumstances of the arrest of two undercover elite SAS men, wearing Arab clothing, by Iraqi police in Basra. on September 19 (London Times (17 Oct 2005)..

"The Ministry of Defence refused to reveal details about his work but it is believed he was involved in the inquiry into the dramatic rescue of two SAS soldiers held in a prison in Basra." (Daily Mail, 16 Oct 2005)

The two British undercover "soldiers", who were driving a car loaded with weapons and ammunition, were subsequently "rescued" by British forces, in a major military assault on the building where they were being detained....

http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2005%20News%20Archives/September/22%20n/British%20Occupation%20Forces%20Suspected%20Behind%20Sectarian%20Terrorism%20in%20Southern%20Iraq%20The%20Two%20British%20Soldiers%20Drove%20a%20Car%20Bomb%20in%20Basra.htm

...Dr. Walid Al-Zubaidi flatly said that Iraqis now are sure that the British occupation forces are responsible for the many terrorist attacks that killed thousands of Iraqis, in an attempt to create and expedite a Sunni-Shi'i civil war in Iraq, hoping that such a civil war will serve them to stay there as an occupying power.

Al-Zubaidi said this is one of the most important piece of evidence implicating occupation forces in several terrorist attacks against Shi'is and Sunnis. He listed several of them in which the police and witnesses said that occupation forces committed them. But in the past, there was no evidence. Now, these two British terrorist soldiers have presented the evidence that Iraqis have been looking for.

Now, of course we have no evidence that this is the case, but more than a few people think this whole business of increasing violence in Iraq is, indeed, a MIHOP exercise.

[tatertop]

9. That story is a classic

Thank you for the excellent recap

[yurbud]

10. this is the piece of what's going on that has to penetrate mainstream

or we will be vulnerable to "terrorist" attacks and dirty tricks for the forseeable future.

[realFedUp]

11. now I'm breathlessly awaiting the facts....

or the movie....

[MADem]

12. I'd urge you not to hold your breath!

You'll turn blue and keel over before they tell us what really happened with that curious exercise, I suspect. Some clever investigative reporter might get something, but then they might carelessly step in front of a bus...

[realFedUp]

13. exhaling.....

yeah, crazy hope on my part. Thanks, I needed that.

[endarkenment]

18. I remember it well.

And I agree with Fisk here. Yes there is no conclusive evidence, but the events in Iraq are not what they seem. There is some mighty bullshit going on, and it has been going on since the day we entered Baghdad.

[realFedUp]

14. I'd love Juan Cole's take on this article....nt

[Terran1212]

15. Fisk is amazing; read his book "The Great War for Civilisation"

He knows more about the Middle East than any neocon hawk; and unlike them, he actually cares about the place.

[endarkenment]

21. The scope of that book is staggering.

It is a must read for anyone who wants to get an independent (pun intended) understanding of what is going on. You might get upset at a lot of what Fisk talks about - he doesn't favor anyone as far as I can tell - but you will definately learn a lot.

[Terran1212]

24. definitely; chapter on bombing of afghanistan post-9/11 should be read by

all..

[jasmeel]

17. Today on "Democracy Now" a woman from Iraq said the same

thing. No one has anything to gain from civil war except the US. The Iraqi woman is in the US to talk to people about the REAL situation in Iraq and was brought here by Codepink. She had some interesting/sad insights.

[megatherium]

22. No -- we don't gain from a civil war, we need Iraq to be stable.

Everyone thinks the USA is all-powerful, and therefore if something is happening, we intended it that way. A far more parsimonious explanation: The Bush military planners are incompetent or overwhelmed by events, and there really is an al Qaeda that wants to trigger a civil war to force us out of Iraq.

[endarkenment]

23. You should read Fisk's book.

The theory is not that we are all powerful, it is that we are meddling nefarious evil creeps. Then again so is everyone else who is a player in this mess.

[RazzleDazzle]

26. and prob ably that all the oligarch arms dealer benefit

from perpetual war

[megatherium]

27. That we are nefarious evil creeps, I will grant you.

I just don't think we're going about the business of doing things that are not in our interest (destablizing the middle east, threatening the oil supply, etc). "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence," as they say.

[Terran1212]

28. Destabilization of Iraq is in neocon interests in the short-term

Gives reasons to stay and implant further.

But you're right; incompetence is certainly a forte of this Administration.

[K-W]

31. An occupying nation encouraging divisions within the occupied society?

Well im shocked.