Taxpayer alert: Obama sells soul to GM at your expense..

[MrTriumph]

From the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram (local booster paper)

Obama offers swap for fuel efficiency

Washington- Trying to jump start gains in auto fuel efficiency after decades of inaction, Sen. Barack Obama. D-Ill., is proposing an unusual swap for the Big Three carmakers: Washington would pay some of Detroit's multibillion dollar health costs in exchange for its making cars that get higher gasoline mileage. The federal government would pay 10percent of the health car costs for retirees that are weighing down General Motors, Ford and Chrysler if they'll commit to building more fuel efficient cars…

[wtmusic]

1. Or we could mandate fuel efficiency targets

*yawn* isn't that how things worked under Clinton?

[DS1]

2. Who's title is this? Yours or the authors?

What's wrong with people who have devoted their entire lives to a company that makes objects to get people from A to B getting a reasonable amount of the healthcare they expected/were promised all along?

What's wrong with strong-arming GM into making fuel efficient vehicles?

[LynneSin]

4. Amen

:D

[MrTriumph]

8. Those were promises made by GM, not the US government

Get real. GM could have decided to devote resources to building fuel efficient cars years ago. They did not. They could make that decision today without government help.

[DS1]

So a National Healthcare plan is completely out of the question for you

No?

[MrTriumph]

48. No, but not implemented for one group of retirees only

x

[still_one]

9. i don't have a problem with it either

this is a win-win, and it will help American workers who usually get the short end of the stick

[wtmusic]

15. This is a bad precedent

Why should the federal government pay a company to be environmentally responsible? Should we also pay Dow to properly dispose of toxic chemicals?

There's no strong-arming here. Let the fat CEOs take some salary cuts and take care of the employees who made them rich.

[DS1]

18. So workers who made unenvironmental equipment in the past shouldn't

get their pills? Is that what you're saying?

[wtmusic]

23. not at all

I'm saying that American taxpayers shouldn't foot the bill for a bloated, regressive company that should probably be liquidated anyway.

If GM sold off Hummer alone it would take care of every pension they're crying about.

[LynneSin]

27. We're gonna foot the bill anyways

No matter what - we will pay for this whether it's to help bail out GM or to help bailout people who have no jobs, no healthcare and no future because of this.

If conditions are created that you provide us this and we'll provide you that - the money goes into the hands of the people who need it and not the CEOs

[wtmusic]

30. What about GM assets?

Absolutely no coddling of US corporate interests. Sell off some of those assets which your wonderful employees have busted their ass to make for you, and voila! Money for healthcare!

The "conditions" are the result of 100 years of GM corporate greed and mismanagement. GM can go to hell.

[400Years]

37. that's a weak argument

how 'bout raising cafe standards and using that money for something better than giving our tax dollars to a bunch of money grubbing corporate executives.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. only that their leadership has fought efficiency tooth and nail

they cancelled their hybrid project, they cancelled their efficiency research, and they bet their future on huge SUVs and trucks.
Duh.

GM leadership has been pathetic for at least 15 years, and their products show it.

Toyota increased R&D in Europe alone by 30% from 2001-2004, during the same time frame, GM cut its R&D 50% across the board.
Toyota increased R&D in Japan by even more. GM cancelled programs.
Toyota increased purchases of promising tech companies in the US and Canada, GM did nothing.

[wtmusic]

20. thank you

and Toyota has plants in CA, KY, IN, WV, AL, and TX, providing lots of wonderful jobs for the American people.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

24. bingo.

I know a few people whose parents worked for one of the big three. They were told by parents, never again, don't follow our steps. They work for Toyota in Indiana, and love it. Fair rules, clean, safe, efficient and good pay. AND they get rewarded for good ideas.

[DS1]

26. Look. GM totally fucking sucks dog balls and makes shit cars

I know that. Still, I support Obama in trying to get them to go in the right direction for a change, and helping old people get some health insurance in one move.

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Do a "Let your mouse do the walking" experiment

Go to http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

Click on "Quick Search" and you will go to http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html

On the US Patent & Trademark Office, Patent Full Text and Image Database--

Term 1 - Put in any auto compnay or oil company
Field 1 - "Assignee Name"
Term 2 - word or phrase that describes an "invention" like "fuel cell" or "hybrid'
Field 2 - fool around here: All Fields, Abstract, Title, Claims, Description/Specification - just explore

This engine is NOT too good with synonyms - you have to do it manually

Hit "Search"

Set aside a coupleof hours to experiment and explore

My conclusion - and I worked on all of them - fuel cells, hybrids, ev's -- Our engineers and scientists are just as good and inventive as the Japanese and Germans and Swedes

BUT - our executives are incredibly screwed up - and it started before Roger "Squeaky" Smith

[ChairmanAgnostic]

38. won't argue with your conclusion, in fact we agree.

but the fact remains that GM cut all development and research having to do with efficiency. Even if they have technnology that can improve their product and save energy use, they don't use it. Their motto since Era of Bush has been bigger, fatter, heavier, more powerful. Even worse, every project about super efficient cars or SUVs has been cancelled. Gone. Poof. And no current plans to restart those cancelled projects.

It takes Japan about 1.2 years to go from an idea to working example, and another 6 months to retool for manufacturing.

GM has the longest run, 2.5 years to go from concept to working example, and another 12 months to retool. That means, even if they start today, right now, this minute, they won't have an efficient car or truck out their door until the end of 2009.
Ford and Chrysler are faster, by about 8-12 months total, but still slower than Japan.

[wtmusic]

40. good info

af do you work in automotive industry?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

43. no, I just read too much stuff that sticks in my head.

[Coastie for Truth]

41. I was part of the vendor community floatsam and jettison

when they shut down the EV project.

[LynneSin]

3. Yeah and?

Basically we're giving a 'loan' to GM in order to get better fuel efficiency cars so in the long run we're all winners.

Personally I like this. These people were promised a pension and if we can dangle the carrot to help get better cars other than things like the Hummer & the Escalade then I'm all for it.

And selling his soul? Oh, right, yeah, people aren't suppose to help the little folks. I mean, Biden & Carper support the Bankerupcy bill because they in bed with the banks. No one actually considered that about half of their state either works for one of those banks or is related to someone who does.

Good proposal Obama, I like it!

[MrTriumph]

10. How's that a loan? That money is never to be repaid. It is a bailout.

If Obama's hairbrained idea comes to pass lokk for every industry with "legacy costs" to come to Washington for relief.

More corporate welfare.

[LynneSin]

12. The 'loan' is the fact that we get more fuel efficient cars

which means less reliance on foreign oil. Consider it more of a 'tax break' where at least the money is going to people who can be helped instead of people who just want more money. If GM defaults on those pensions or lays off more people because of lack of jobs then our tax dollars are going to support these people anyways. Better than we find a way not only to save the pensions, but also to save jobs for those still working for GM AND better our environment.

Win/Win situation if you ask me!

[MrTriumph]

50. Since payback is not required, can I borrow $100 from you?

After all, it is a loan.

[Pirate Smile]

5. He wants to jump start the Big Three in making fuel efficient cars

AND he recognizes how our screwed up Health Care system places an extra, huge burden on US Companies.

Let me guess, that paper is a RW rag.

[MrTriumph]

11. Oh, cry me a river. GM's retiree benefits are NOT OUR PROBLEM

If Obama's BAILOUT plan for GM comes about, look for any group with pension problems (and there are many of them) to seek relief.

[DS1]

19. Yes they FUCKING ARE!

Because if you don't get people continued healthcare they end up in the emergency rooms costing everyone a hell of a lot more than they would if you give them reasonable care all along.

Get it?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrTriumph]

6. Obama- No BAILOUT for GM!

GM has lost half its market share in 30 years. It has not been due to "legacy costs". It has been due to bad engineering, shoddy workmanship, poor design and terrible decisions by GM's leadership.

Butt out, Obama. GM's problems are of GM's making. GM has to resolve them.

NO BAILOUT FOR GM.

[LynneSin]

14. Oh goodie, so our tax dollars will still pay for these people

who now have no jobs or pension.

Great - who else would you like to take away jobs from, I mean if we're not working that means more people to work for Wal-Mart. Oh goodie - I can't wait!!

:eyes:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

22. What, our capitalistic system only applies when things are good?

but when a company has been run into the ground like GM, we are supposed to change the rules?

These folks are going to lose their pensions no matter what. THese folks will lose the health benefits no matter what. They will be on the public teat (assuming that Bush doesn't erase the remaining fed programs to pay for Iraq and Iran and Haliburton) regardless of what we do.

I would prefer that those in charge of GM suffer the ignoble defeat of BK, and NOT be bailed out by us. For the common worker, it will have the same result. Either we give them huge breaks, which GM will squander and waste just like it has the past 15 yrs, or we let GM die a natural death, and spend money on the pensions of the workers.

[LynneSin]

25. Well they will if we don't try something like the Obama plan

this is a win-win situation. Since that money is being used anyways whether as help for GM to flourish or entitlements to people who have losted their jobs, their healthcare & their benefits then why not give this a chance. If it works, GM starts designing more fuel efficient cars which help our environment and creates jobs to build those cars.

A quitter never wins which is why I love this plan because at least Obama is trying to do something positive instead of saying "Oh Well, not my problem" It is our problem when we through people to the street, people who are part of a union who have been strong democratic supporters to boot!

[DS1]

29. So we're paying either way, so if we look at it your way, we're getting

efficient cars for free.

Simple enough.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

31. but you presume that money will be used wisely. THIS IS GM we are talking

about! Your presumption is as bad as the idea that we will efficiently rebuild Iraq after we invade; or that privatizing social security will help the elderly and ailing; or that they won't take the money, pretend to do research, and pay themselves huge bonuses for outsmarting the american people again.

I cannot accept that presumption. Not given GM's past behavior.

[DS1]

34. Either way, we're spending the money

[LynneSin]

44. If we give the money in condition that the pensions be saved

then it would be difficult for them to thwart that. The money would be pulled if GM violates it

[truebrit71]

7. How about no, and we mandate the increases anyway?

There is absolutely no reason why taxpayers should have to pay ANY cost for ANY company's health-care costs. The company's should negotiate better rates with their insurers. I thought government-subsidized industries was the "scourge" of socialist countries... :shrug:

Of course if there was healthcare coverage for all Americans this sort of bribery wouldn't need to be contemplated...

Wonder why Obama didn't propose that instead?

[LynneSin]

16. Tax payers are going to pay for these people anyways

because if there are no jobs and no pensions you think Wal-Mart will cover these people if that's the only job available?

I'd rather help out GM with money specified to go towards the employees and NOT the owners. And in return we get cars that better improve our environment. When cars are being made people keep their jobs. ANd when Pensions are saved then they aren't using our tax dollars to pay for their cost-of-living.

I mean, this just sounds so fricking republican: No GM Bailout and fuck the little people hurt the most by it

[400Years]

33. Why not help people directly instead of giving our tax dollars to GM?

[LynneSin]

35. that's what we're doing

by specifying the money is for the pensioners it's not just a 'giveaway'

[400Years]

39. just raise the standards, it's much cheaper

GM has cut their own throat and taxpayers should not be in the business of subsidizing failure.

[LynneSin]

45. But we should pay then for all those people

who are thrown out there on their ass without a job or without a pension.

Geez, at least a free republic you'd be amongst people who would think that is a good thing.

We will pay - let's try and do something good instead of just fucking over the working class person

[400Years]

46. Giving tax dollars to corproate fat cats ain't helping the working class

you want to get snippy I see, well we've all seen the level of your political insight and that pretty much speaks for itself.

I got your "super secret filibuster" right here.

[LynneSin]

47. Why are you even here posting?

I mean geez, if we can't help the working class folks with a program where we'll cover their pension provided that GM makes more fuel efficient cars. Geez, what, are you anti-union? You work for Wal-mart and are hoping to hire folks laid off from GM?

Way to really help out the GM folks by letting them collect their money has they steal away the pensions and lay off more employees.

ANd here's an idea - hit the red-x next to my name. I'm tired of you stalking me around. I swear I could start a post that I want to give $100 to every person and you'll be in there in five minutes why this is a bad thing. I want to help people, working class people and that's exactly what Obama's plan does. Anything else you want to go screw over and help ruin more lives. I guess you'll be happy when we're back to a fiefdom where everyone's purpose in live is to live a subsistant life giving everything they have to the lord & master

:grr:

[400Years]

49. You think corporate extortion is helping the working class? LOL!!!

Trying to say that giving our tax dollars to a bunch of corporate pigs is somehow helping union members is total horseshit. I say raise the CAFE standards and pass a law that says if GM wants to bail out on pensions then that money will first come from the bank accounts of the assholes who have managed to put GM in this mess. That would stop this mess in it's tracks.

Quit acting like this is something it aint.

Trying to hide behind populist rhetoric while turning over our money to the guilded class is a pretty weak position. I would feel sorry for you but you don't deserve it.

How pathetic.

[LynneSin]

51. Oh, please, get over yourself. If I say 'black', you say 'white'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=add_ignore&u_id=103513

You've been doing this for months asshole. Trust me, I get no jolly searching out your threads and doing this crap and I'm getting sick and tired of you doing this to me.

Last I read, this was Obama's suggestion of what we can do to help these people, you know - the working class you just love to shit upon, who are going to be tossed out on the streets without jobs, without healthcare and without anyway to make ends meet. I mean you do know about what happened in Flint Michigan don't you? That city is still in a state of shambles because of jobs lost from plant closings.

How do you sleep at night knowing you'd kick these people to the streets. I thought progressives were the ones out there trying to make sure that everyone has the chance to have a decent job, save a little money and take care of their families. You'd rather just have everyone working at Wal-Mart and using my taxdollars to pay for their healthcare & other basic needs.

[400Years]

52. quitting acting like a little baby

You didn't start this thread and you don't own it so quit trying to act like some fucking martyr. Just because I post in a thread and you respond with stupid bullshit doesn't mean I am bothering you. The reason we argue alot is because anytime someone says something you don't agree with you act like its personal. Get over yourself.

Now as far as the workers in Flint Michigan what ought to be done is the assets of the scumbags who have driven that company into the ground ought to be seized and turned over to an account that would fund those pensions and on top of that competent management should be put in their place. This new management should be people elected by the union members themselves.

Your pathetic accusation about say alot about you and your mental state.
Here is a perfect example: "You'd rather just have everyone working at Wal-Mart and using my taxdollars to pay for their healthcare & other basic needs."
This is a perfect example of your delusional thinking. You are the one advocating
giving our tax dollars to the gilded class and yet you turn around and hurl these
accusations. Ann Coulter does alot of that kind of shit.

[unhappycamper]

13. MrTriumph:

Please be aware that DU copyright rules require that excerpts of copyrighted material be limited to four paragraphs and must include a link to the original source.

You have one hour from the time of your original post to make changes.

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TIA,

unhappycamper
DU Moderator

[John Q. Citizen]

28. Got a link? We need single payer fee for service health care and cafe

fuel efficiency standards.

We also need good paying factory jobs.

The three needs could overlap, if we see the solution to the first is also the solution to the second and the third need, we'd save a pile of money on health care and everyone could just go to the doctor. That could only help everyone, even GM.

SO I'm not entirely sure of all the details, because there is no more info.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Link to article in Philadelphia Inquirer

Comment seems to be "hmm, well, it might be worth it - we can't tell".

"Look at the Obama thing not in the specifics but in the broad idea of thinking outside the limits of the debate," said Henry Lee, a Harvard energy professor who served as energy secretary to Democratic and Republican governors in Massachusetts.

"Leaving things the way they are, we're just continuing the stalemate," said Linda Stuntz, a former deputy energy secretary under President George H.W. Bush.
...
Peter Fox-Penner, a former senior energy official under President Bill Clinton, said Obama's idea "resonated better than anything else that has been proposed" in at least five years to raise fuel-efficiency standards.

Just as Bush's energy-conservation proposals were "a gigantic step toward the middle," Fox-Penner said, Obama's plan shows that Democrats realize that Detroit is in bad financial shape and needs help to change its gas-guzzling ways.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/14018242.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

36. It is inevitable - we will go to Universal Health Insurance

Single payer, 100% coverage, universal health insurance -- and it will happen as soon as we have a Democratic President, a Democratic Senate, a Democratic House - and GM goes into Chapter XI.

And, don't believe the bull about "Single Payer sucks in Canada" - that's a political decision that the Canadians have made to "ration." Read the facts - and do your own research

GO TO http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

and search on

"Woolhandler" and/or "Himmelstein"

You will get real numbers - and you will see that Frist, Santorum, and Gingrich lie like rugs.

I welcome it - but then again, I've been a Democrat all of my life, and I had Len Rapping (the AFL-CIO United Steelworkers Labor Economist) for Labor Economics in college.

[unhappycamper]

53. Locking

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