Christian hate

[Vexatious Ape]

Holy freaking horse poop Batman, American’s hate atheists. It’s true; our country, my country, the land of corn-pone creationists, rapture Republicans and war mongering followers of Christ hate me, they really hate me. This makes me feel so warm and fuzzy I think I’ll pour myself another adult beverage.
It seems that the University of Minnesota ‘s sociology department did a study on atheism—here’s a snippet from their website:
Snip.
MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (3/28/2006) -- American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Snip.
Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

This is what kills me the most. I’m not a bad guy, no criminal record, in fact I’m pretty damn boring—I’ll admit that. With the exception of some shoplifting during my youth—when I was a Christian—I don’t steal. Rape? Never. Kill? Never. Am I materialistic? No—with the exception of my book collection I’m rather fond of, I’ve never been worried about having a flashy car, or a big house, etc, etc. I don’t care about, think about, or covet Mr. Jones next door and all the useless Chinese made crap he’s accumulated. Am I a cultural elitist? I’m a fucking truck driver.
There is some good news revealed in the study: apparently I’d be less hated in the East Coast and the West Coast.
Snip.
The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

This is too bad because I live in GEORGIA. If America could only know how nice I am they’d be stunned. I’m not perfect at all but I’d tell them this if they’d listen: I love my wife and have never ever had an affair (been married 19 years). I love and respect my son. I mow my lawn when I should. Always use my turn signals. Cross my t’s and dot my i. Say please and thank you when warranted. And I always remember to feed my dog.

[mrcheerful]

1. Its called profiling and profiling is just wrong.

Though far more crimes against women and children are committed by the faithful, you'll never get one to admit facts. As far as being everything else your post mention, well again Xians are the majority of Wal Mart shoppers and greed and wealth and power are what a lot of Xians are after. Point da finger else where don't look at me.

[ClintonTyree]

2. Fellow Atheist here........

you're welcome up here in New York any time! Like you, I'm more or less a model citizen, treat others like I'd wish to be treated, have never been to jail, have a lovely Atheist daughter on the Dean's list at a top, SOUTHERN school and live life more like a christian than most christians. I am a threat to no one, well, maybe to someone's preconceived notion of what an Atheist is supposed to be like. Just let me be and stop trying to shove your religion down my throat. I don't need the specter of some omnipotent father figure in the sky who'll punish me if I err. Or his "forgiveness". Most importantly, I'm happy as a clam.

So to all of my fellow Atheists, :toast: Don't let them have the satisfaction of getting you down. ;)

[emanymton]

3. Und Vhy Do You Hate Amerika?

It is all your fault that GOD is turning away from all the hate and killing in Amerika. It can't be kristains who pervert the word to be able to lie, cheat and steal.

[BR_Parkway]

4. You don't covet what the Jones' have? How can you simply turn your back

on something that our Glorious Corporations have brainwashed provided simply and altruistically to honor those Fine Americans? Why do you hate the Jones'?

In all reality, those who need to find something outside of themselves for whatever reason will always hate those who don't the most. Your belief points out something inside of them that they secretly feel is a weakness, and the herd mentality is to never allow another to be stronger.

[badgerpup]

5. Funny...now you mention it...

Most of the most rational, reasonable, and fun-to-hang-with people I know are either atheist, agnostic, or pagan.

[chefgirl]

6. I'll say it once again, nicely

I REALLY wish, when people post threads about "Christian" hate in this country, they would respect the profound differences between the real Christians in this society (of which I am one, and have absolutely NO problem with atheism or atheists) and the fundamentalist gasbags who only pretend to be Christian.

What your original post is describing is not "Christian Hate", its radical, extremist, right wing Christian poser hatred.

-chef-

[ThomCat]

13. It is assumed

that's he's talking about the major movements, the large visible groups. The exceptions keep quiet, keep to yourselves, and are barely visible at all as Christians.

There are some very nice tolerant Christians. But the bulk of Christians are not. That's not your fault. You are one of the exceptions. But your tolerance doesn't absolve Christianity for the beliefs, attitudes and actions of the vast majority of Christians.

[chefgirl]

18. I completely disagree. It's not assumed...

Obviously, the RW Christians have done their job well if you truly believe that Christians like me are the minority, and the hate mongering, bigoted, exclusionary faux Christians of the RW are the "vast majority".

THAT is exactly the problem I'm trying to illuminate. Don't fall for the bullshit.

You are right that Christians like me are quiet and barely visible, but we are NOT the minority, trust me. The reason we are quiet and keep our beliefs to ourselves is because of humility and tolerance. To constantly have to be lumped in with the radical RW religio-fascists is just as intolerant of us as you claim we are of you.

I would suggest to you that, just as we've learned to mistrust just about everything the MSM tells us these days, anytime you hear some gasbag declaring what a fine,upstanding Christian he/she is, you take just a moment to remember that for everyone of them, there are probably 10 of us.

The problem with that, however, is that people only hear the loud mouthed, attention grabbing blowhards who would force their brand of Christianity on everyone else.

I would assume your wish is to have people relate to you as an individual, and not heap upon you their distaste for those 'militant' atheists they might have come in contact with. For the record, for those whose atheism is as much a radical religious concept as Christianity is for the fundies, I say, there is no real difference between the two, and those are the 'militant' atheists I'm referring to here.

As a Christian, I'm completely tolerant of whatever personal beliefs a person chooses to hold, as long as they are not actively trying to denigrate my beliefs or push theirs on me. I'm just asking for the same respect in return.

If I can recognize that there are different kinds of atheists in this world, couldn't you guys at least attempt to recognize the same of Christians?

-chef-

[ThomCat]

19. Who are these "you guys" you are referring to in your last line?

And who is refusing to recognize that some Christians are good people?

Face it, if the vast majority of people who identify themselves as Christians are holding certain beliefs, supporting certain prejudices, and they are doing it in the name of Christianity then that represents Christianity.

If the majority of Christians don't meet your levels of religious purity, that's an issue between you and them. Christians have been arguing this for 2000 years and haven't settled it yet. For us on the outside, any people who believe they are Christian organize under the Christian umbrella are Christians.

There may be good Christians, and there may be bad Christians, but you're all Christians. If you think that you can claim that only a small group of nice people are really Christians, and therefore Christianity can't be held responsible for everything people do in the name of their Christianity, then you're delusional.

You just want everyone to pat you on the back for being a real Christian and say aren't you wonderful. Well maybe you are, personally, and maybe your religion has the potential to be, ideally, but the reallity for your religion as a whole is entirely different.

[chefgirl]

30. Since you asked sooo nicely,

Your name calling and accusatory vehemence toward me pretty much brings into specific relief who I meant by 'you guys'.

I'll be the first person to tell you that I am FAR from a 'nice' person, and don't even jokingly entertain the notion that I'm anywhere near 'religiously pure'. I am a Christian because I believe in what Christ taught, simple as that. Much as I might try to walk that walk every day, be sure, there ARE people who piss me off and cause me to step off that path from time to time.

There are good atheists and bad atheists, but because a few of them are assholes, then I guess, following your logic, its perfectly acceptable for me to just decide they're all assholes and leave it at that??

See how ignorant and narrow minded it is for some anonymous person on some discussion board to decide for you what the "reality of your religion" is?
You don't have the first idea what the 'reality' of my personal religion is, and the only thing I am responsible for, that was done in the name of Christianity, is what I have done in the name of Christianity. Don't try laying the blame on me for 2000 years of people with their own agendas perverting the true meaning of Jesus' message.

All I asked for is for people who lump all Christians into the same group as the mouth breathing, (Old Testament) scripture quoting, radical right wing fundies to step back and think before 'you guys' do that. Recognize that there is a world of difference between them and Christians who actually believe in the message of Christ, and not some judgemental, bigoted version of that message.
If you saw that as me wanting someone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful I am, then you've completely missed the point.

I dont give a happy damn what you think of my beliefs, just as I don't give a happy damn what YOU believe in. THAT is what separates me, and many other Christians, from those fundie whack jobs who would work toward taking away your right to believe or not as you choose.

I don't need or want a pat on the back for that. Just call me a Christian.

-chef-

[liberalpress]

31. I was gonna jump in here and throw a few punches for ya...

...but you're doin' just fine chef!

[ThomCat]

33. Feel free to jump in

and "throw a few punches." Because we all know how persecuted christians are...
:eyes:

[ThomCat]

32. You miss the point.

If you're going to throw my logic back at me it would be nice if you actually understood it.

Organizations and movements have a presence as a whole, apart from any of their individuals. They need to be judged and understood as a whole. Just because one individual christian may be an ass doesn't mean that all of christianity is. But also, just become one or two rare christians are good people, this doesn't mean christianity is similarly good.

Judge athiests any way you want. But all athiests are not me. Just like all of Christianity is not the few rare good Christians.

You said:
"All I asked for is for people who lump all Christians into the same group... Recognize that there is a world of difference between them and Christians who actually believe in the message of Christ, and not some judgemental, bigoted version of that message."

My response:
1. Nobody is assuming Christianity is monolithic. Athiests (in general) don't care about the words of Christ or any other mythological figure. If you're a good person then you're good regardless of your religion. As a whole, and taken in its major parts, Christianity is a one of the bloodiest and most authoritiarian movements in human history.

2. You claim that you don't care what anyone's personal beliefs are, except that you do care. You want everyone to believe that some christians are wonderful. You want everyone to believe this strongly enough to add a paragraph to ever post stating that of course we all know that there are some wonderful christians out there. There are christian web sites for that.

[Saintgermane]

7. Fellow Georgia Atheist

I agree - it's astonishing how judgemental Christians can be when you admit you don't belive in god..I've tried pointing out that there's about 3'000 other gods, extant or historical, that they don't belive in either, and really, we're just one god apart from believing exactly the same thing, but of course I say it without much hope of impacting their opinion.

I have pondered moving to someplace where atheists are more accepted.

Anyway, luck to you.

[GeorgeGist]

8. Another example of Christianity's...

failure to live up to it's promise.

[katty]

16. rabid, non-inclusive Christians don't embraceJC's msg of love&

peace-just the opposite. They constantly project their faults and failures on others and the world.
This charade is so obvious. If anyone dares to engage me in the righteousness of this bull****, I just chuckle and walk away now-not wasting my breath on disturbed, arrogant idiots.

[Demeter]

9. Religion Is There For People That Need It

That's the standard excuse: if a person isn't personally disciplined enough to hold to the path of good behavior, religion is supposed to provide the structure that supports doing the good and right thying over the easy or expedient. Religion is for sinners, so many ministers say.

Unfortunately, the sinners are now running the asylums: promoting lawless, harmful, and unethical behaviors. The days when religion worked as advertised are long over in many communities. Instead, religion provides a washing away of guilt, a forgiveness without requiring restitution or insistence on change. The Left Behind series of Christian hate fiction is just the most visible example of the problem.

[PurityOfEssence]

posted twice somehow...

self-delete.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. That pretty much says it

Okay, many people truly believe and are decent sorts who don't need the fear of hellfire to keep them in line, but many are solipsistic skunks who cling to the personal god to dispel the fear of randomness a lack of specialness.

The raging ugliness of those who revel in the destruction of others who don't believe is a scary and tiresome thing, yet there it is. It's one thing to focus on one's own personal selfish supernatural post-life future, but quite another to garner some kind of joy from the relative failure of inferiors.

[unhappycamper]

10. Vexatious Ape:

Please be aware that DU copyright rules require that excerpts of copyrighted material be limited to four paragraphs and must include a link to the original source.

In the future, please insure your posts adhere to this standard.

TIA,

unhappycamper
DU Moderator

[believerinchrist]

11. Many "Christians" are far too concerned with what other people are doing

and not concerned enough with their own thoughts and actions. Jesus recognized this when he told his listeners to remove the beams from their own eyes before they try to remove the motes from their neighbors' eyes. Over and over, the New Testament writers emphasized the command to not judge any other human being--the disregard many Christians have for this "law" is bringing about the so-called "war" against them. As Galatians 6:7 states, "...whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." If people sow judgment, hatred, and revenge, that is exactly what they will reap. Believers in Christ have the responsibility to show the world the amazing love of God--when we fulfill this responsibility, the world will be a better place.

[megatherium]

12. I think the most important things Jesus said

were the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10), and the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25).

[sorval]

17. "jesus stories"

In reply to the person who thought "the most important things Jesus said were.."

The "good samaritan" story thats ascribed to him, selfless help to strangers was around and in wide use LONG before Jesus cited it and took ownership of the concept as a Christian virtue. The story just rebrands humanism with a christian trademark and then claims they invented the idea.

And in fact, ask any bum if they would like help from a religious group or a non-religious one, and which do you think they will pick? The modern "good samaritan" in the religious community will try to impose something on you in exchange for their help.

And if you're a non beleiver they will think of you as someone who is at best going to hell, and possibly someone who is harmful to their community. And treat you accordingly. "Live and let live" is somewhat incompatible with spreading the "good word". (And that goes for spreading democracy too)

[megatherium]

21. You're confusing liberal Christians with fundamentalists/evangelicals.

Part of my point in mentioning these two stories was to remind the reader that Jesus taught that it is important to take care of people, and that this is what God is concerned with, not belief or disbelief. My own religious beliefs: I am a liberal Episcopalian; I am a gay man; I believe in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all people of good will (you do not have to be Christian to be "saved").

Would you please cite an antecedent to the Parable of the Good Samaritan? It wouldn't surprise me at all if such stories are found in earlier traditions (particularly in Buddhism, which predates Christianity by some 5 centuries), but I'm not aware of a specific example. (I didn't mean to imply this was original with Jesus.) I would be grateful if you happened to know of one.

However, it is instructive to unpack the version Jesus taught. The story begins with a lawyer asking Jesus how must we be saved. Jesus asked him what do the scriptures say? He replied, love God and love your neighbor. Jesus said, that's right. But then the lawyer wanted to know who his neighbors were. Jesus then told the parable, where of course it was the Samaritan who helped the injured man, not the Jews. The interesting thing is who the Samaritans were. They were a sect of Judaism who were despised by other Jews. (Actually, they still exist, a few hundred live in Israel.) If Jesus (or some other wise teacher) told this story today, perhaps it would be the Parable of the Good Muslim, or the Parable of the Good Gay Man, or the Parable of the Good Free Thinker. Or depending on the circumstances -- the Parable of the Good Christian.

The other story I mentioned is where Jesus tells the believer that he will not go to heaven even though he preached in Jesus's name, etc -- because he did not help those who needed help. Of course, the whole hell concept is, well, really negative -- I would expect you to be indignant at the notion. (I don't believe in hell either.) But the point Jesus was making was that God is concerned about how we treat each other. (Lots of what Jesus taught is along these lines: religiosity without compassion is evil. Actually, this thread runs through much of the Hebrew/Christian scriptures, as is seen in Isaiah chapter 1.)

By the way, I observe that I have the honor of being the recipient of your very first post on DU. Welcome! :)

[newyawker99]

15. Hi believerinchrist!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Judi Lynn]

14. They haven't grown beyond childhood inwardly, Vexatious Ape

They suspect everything they don't already know about. They've started closing down as adults. Sometime in their teenage or early adult life they start going backwards, when they aren't able to meet the challenge of inner growth.

Welcome to D.U.! :hi:

[yurbud]

20. atheists, like anarchists, need a make over

People have such strong negative connotations with each, that they don't realize they agree with them on some essential issues.

[Alonzo Fyfe]

22. Ritualized Lessons in Hate

Think about it.

Every school day for young and impressionable children starts with a "pledge" that does nothing less than say that those who are not "under God" are as anti-American as any who would support rebellion, tyranny, and injustice.

No lesson is repeated more often in America's schools than this equation, and a coerced "pledge" on the part of the student that they will spend their lives fighting to oppose those who are not "under God."

We see the results of these daily lessons in hate in statistics such as this.

We also see it in statements such as President Bush's claim that anybody he appoints to be judge must believe that our rights come from God. We see it in a long list of court cases where atheist parents are denied custody of their own children explicitly because they are atheists, as reported in this study from UCLA.

I hear admonishments from those who would tell us not to confuse the hucksters of hate with more moderate Christians who do not hate atheists. Yet, when there are polls to determine who supports the lesson of hate that is the American Pledge of Allegiance, those same people vote to continue these lessons rather than end them.

This calls into mind a saying about the merits of judging a person not by what they say, but by what they do.

Alonzo Fyfe
Atheist Ethicist Blog

[Alonzo Fyfe]

24. I would also like to point out to the members of this forum...

When Michael Newdow won a victory in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals against this ritualized pledge to hate atheists as anti-American, Democrats and Republican senators alike met on the steps of the capital to show their solidarity.

In unison they insisted that they all equally thought that a ritual lesson in hate was a perfectly legitimate way to have each child start his or her day at school -- even if the person they were teaching the child to hate was her own (atheist) father.

Alonzo Fyfe
Atheist Ethicist Blog

[katty]

34. christian fascists, history of: the crusades

[Left Below]

23. Another Georgian here (Athens) and I think religion is soul killing

Taboo and dogma limit our humanity - they repress free expression and sensuality. Ritual kills experience. Misplaced priorities cost lifespace.

That's just me though....

[Vexatious Ape]

25. you nailed it

in one sentence.

[Blue_Tires]

26. ttt n/t

[ThomCat]

27. ??? What is TTT?

[Blue_Tires]

28. to the top

in other words, i'm kicking the thread