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Paulo_s News Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 03:48 PM
Original message
Anti-Censure Senate Democrats Risk Base Backlash
From Paulo's News:

The Senate Juduciary Committee took up Senator Russ Feingold's Censure Resolution on Friday. Feingold's Resolution rebukes President Bush for authorizing the so-called Terrorist Surveillance Program, or TSP, which allows the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on US citizens in the US with suspected terrorist ties. The program has come under fire for bypassing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, which requires that the government obtain warrants for said eavesdropping. Senator Patrick Leahy, the ranking Democrat on the committee, was the only other Democratic Senator to speak at the hearing.

The Attorney General and other Bush Administration officials have argued that while FISA continues to be used, it is too rigid, as it requires the Justice Department to obtain warrants from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court within 72 hours of initiating surveillance. Paulo's News strongly disagrees. If the Justice Department does not have the ability and competence to work with the FIS Court to spy on Americans while staying within the law, it has no business being involved in the program.

The Bush Administration's current defense of the legality of the TSP is that President Bush has inherent authority to authorize the program under Article II, Section 1, Clause 1, of the US Constitution. Yet the Administration must be reading the Constitution upside-down, as the 4th Amendment specifically forbids unreasonable searches without judicial review. The 4th Amendment is a bedrock principle of the United States. To violate it under any circumstance puts America's founding principles in jeopardy.

Yet even strong Bush critics like Senator Barack Obama are not supporting the Feingold resolution. In a letter to a constituent, (later posted on DailyKos,) Obama recently argued that it must be determined whether or not the President acted in good faith in authorizing the TSP before censuring him. This argument is naive at best. The Bush Administration's denial of judicial oversight--to a program that violates the 4th amendment without it--can only imply that details of the program would not stand up to such oversight. That FIS Court-demanded modifications to Justice Department warrant requests have spiked since 2003 casts doubt on the good faith hypothetical, and the recent revelation that the Defense Department spied on peace-activist Quakers proves the Administration has not restricted its domestic espionage to terrorists.

While Senator Feingold's resolution to censure the President may not be the most pragmatic proposal--as Bush's world standing has already been diminished dramatically--his principled stand has proven not at all unpopular. A recent ARG Poll showed a plurality of voters (48% to 43%) in support of the censure resolution. Incidentally, the poll also showed a majority of Democrats (61% to 30%) and a plurality of Independents (47% to 40%) in favor of going beyond censure and impeaching President Bush.

Unfortunately, Feingold's bill has only two co-sponsors, Senator Boxer and Senator Harkin. The remaining 41 Democrats effectively insist on sitting on their hands, waiting for the Senate Intelligence Committee to finish its investigation of the TSP. These senators would be wise to rethink their pussyfooting on this hot-button issue, lest it weaken the Democratic base's voter turnout in November.

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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely...
They don't get it. :dunce: To borrow a sports analogy, the Dems are playing like a football team trying to protect a small lead in the 4th quarter (The lead being the current polling numbers). They're playing prevent defense, rather than keeping up the offensive pressure. The only thing prevent defense prevents you from doing is winning.

Sorry about the sports analogy but it seems apropros.
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Paulo_s News Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No no, the sports analogy is great.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hi Paulo_s News
welcome to DU :hi:
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. If it is a sport that they play...
most Repugs and Dems play like they are on the same team! I felt the lack of Democratic support on Friday was totally disheartening. In any event we know the game is not Rugby!
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. what's the odds of me welcoming two newbies
both with 17 posts on the same day in the same thread? Lucky me. Welcome to DU peace13 :hi:
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Oregon State had a football team like that in 80s, all handoffs and
short passes, never anything daring. The ball never got intercepted, they rarely fumbled, but they won less often than either of those. And it was boring as hell to watch.

Towards the end of my time there, they got a new coach, and they actually started to throw some hail mary passes and take chances. They didn't have a great season, but they won more games, and most importantly, when you went to a game, you felt like cheering for the team instead of glumly watching the other team zip around them like they were fireplugs.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Issue of Concern is Domestic Spying on ALL U.S.Citizens,
not just eavesdroping on US citizens in the US with suspected terrorist ties.

That's a GOP talking point, but it isn't even the point of concern.

Why are you repeating GOP talking points?

"Terrorist Surveillance Program" is the new Orwellian name the Bush administration gave it AFTER the issue of DOMESTIC SPYING as raised in the public fora - then it was referred to as "warrantless tapping".

It is Warrantless Tapping of American Citizens, ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS..

This isn't about Terrorists Surveillance at all. In fact, the people that are being eavesdropped on are actually ACLU LAWYERS, their defense teams, their clients who are bringing lawsuits against this administration, for Illegal DETAINMENT AND TORTURE cases at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, and other Rendition Torture cases.

This is what is at issue. Political Enemies - which is why it is important to use the accurate terminology of DOMESTIC SPYING - not the GOP Orwellian definition of "terrorist surveillance".

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Paulo_s News Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Please see my reply at the other thread...
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Horror Movie Analogy...
The Democratic Party, of late, seems to become strikingly similar to a group of college kids on vacation in a slasher flick who, despite taking showers at really inappropriate moments (my best friend, the two frat guys, and a drifter have been disemboweled by something in the plumbing... what better time to refresh myself with a 40-minute shower) and investigating solo the weird sloshing noises in a flooded basement whose lights, suspiciously, do not work (must make sure I keep the flashlight pointed straight ahead and never turn around to see what might have crept up behind me... ever), have managed in their diminished numbers to disable the beast which hunts them. As it sits temporarily lame before them, rather than immolating the carcass so as to guarantee that no bits of it escape destruction, they beat it rather weakly with sticks and assume that their troubles are over. They walk away in a state of relief, only to be somehow overwhelmed by it in the first two scenes of the sequel.

I am despondent by the current crop of Democratic delegates to Washington. The base is angry and motivated, and here we have an opportunity to deal the first of the blows which will ultimately allow the Republican leadership to be escorted from the halls of power to the halls of incarceration where it seems they more appropriately belong. The weakness that they've shown is remarkable, even to a person whose life has been involved with absorbing the truth that politicians serve their own interests and forward employment first, second, third, and ultimately last on their list of priorities. Even as the vituperous, self-serving weasels they are, they show no particular savvy or talent for their primary purpose of self-preservation! Half the time I want to scream "NOW'S YOUR CHANCE!!!", only they just wilt into the background content to relive the horror in the sequel.

They have learned nothing from the past 5 years, and while I hate to be a pessimist, preferring cynicism most of the time, I doubt they have the courage to fight any battle no matter how necessary for fear of losing a single vote.
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Paulo_s News Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Wow. Pithy, yet poetic.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The Democratic "leadership" are actors in a charade,
and they play their assigned part, which has nothing at all to do with representing us, or any segment of the public. Once you understand that, it all gets clearer. While is it true that they are servile and lickspittle time-servers, unworthy of the free nation they swear to defend, the problem is not that they lack courage, but that they are duplicitious minions of the present regime.

I do not include Howard Dean in this categorization; he appears, in his way, to be trying to implement real change, and he is head of the DNC over the strenuous objections of the self-appointed Democratic "leaders".

Nice rant.

Welcome to DU, I think it will be a pleasure having you around.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanx...
Yes, they are... how did you say it... "servile and lickspittle time-servers"... nice, BTW.

However, being the cynic that I am, this behavior makes this all the more puzzling. I tend to look at this situation as a cost/benefit analysis, and who will act how based upon how the players profit. The Republicans are giving them the loaded weapons they require to do what it is of which they're most concerned: protecting their careers. Not only do the Dems get to keep their jobs, but there is a high probability that they can increase their ranks. I seriously doubt that the Democrats serve to gain anything being minions... while this may have worked when it seemed that Bush had iron armor, it works against them now that it's been examined and found to be marshmallow. I seriously doubt it has much to do with being complicit, I think they're still shell shocked from the last election. It seems that no matter how populist their stance, no matter what they do, that the American electorate will find a reason to vote against them. Putting aside the possibility that you've got Diebold and Sequoia making our electoral decisions for us, it seems that the burden of proof as to who will do a better job seems to fall squarely on Democrats.

The American electorate seems to want to believe that Democrats are sleazy and will accept anyone at their word who will tell them so. They corollarily seem want to believe that the Republicans represent a viable correction to this sleaziness, even though that is coming out as a gross overestimation of the political animal, as we've seen. Maybe it's just a defense against the realization that all politicians are essentially human garbage, save a few. Needing to believe somebody will look out for them, they construct a delusion and follow it.

This delusion is particularly powerful in its ability to mask truth, even if that truth is shimmering like gold in plain sight. In fact, most of the conversations I've had politically over the past 5 years (and there have been more than in the previous 30 combined) involve the burden of proof being squarely in the Democratic court, what I consider to be evidence of this delusion. For every Democratic candidate, you seem to have to provide 10 or more positives for every Republican negative. I actually had a conversation with one of the typical one-issue voters that Republicans have come to rely on and he claimed that he wouldn't vote for Kerry because he's a gun owner and Kerry wanted to take away his guns. I told him that I didn't believe he had any such plank in his platform, and after that, went online for a few hours to see if I could find evidence that Kerry wanted any such thing. Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough, but I couldn't find any stance that would indicate that he'd ever made any remarks to that regard. This guy was just going to vote Republican come hell or high water. Mind you this is not a stupid guy in any way, in fact, quite the opposite.

It seems to me that Dems still think we can win the votes of the "stubborn Republican" bloc if we just don't display signs of complaint and do what they can to climb up to a level of innocuity from sleazy. Actually, the only way Dems can win, however, is to tap into the latent idealism every "liberal" possesses. I say latent because I think we've been so disappointed in their championing of our ideas for so long that we have lost interest in supporting them and have backed off our seriousness of seeing them implemented. They must re-engage the base because their support is no longer the default of the party rank-and-file. They're not going to do this by backing off holding these people accountable.

Whew... OK, I feel better now.

Thanks again for the welcome.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. A couple brief things:
1.) In cost-benefit analysis, one has to be precise about who "they" is and what the benefit they obtain is. In this case, in my view, "they" is the Congressional national party "leadership" - note for example that Mr. Dean is NOT a congressperson of any sort - and the benefit "they" obtain is continued control of the party and the benefits that flow from that, money and power. Thus, in this interpretation, Biden, Kerry, H. Clinton, Kennedy, and Lieberman are all "they", as well as many others of a more "conservative" stripe.

2.) Allow me to recommend Walter Karp's book "Inseparable Enemies", which is very illuminating, whether one buys all of it or not.

3.) I agree with your comment about the path to victory, it seems quite obvious to me, so the question is why does no charismatic leader arise and take over? Isn't that how it's supposed to work? And the answer is because any such leader will be destroyed, or at least the attempt will be made by "they", and "they" have formidable weapons. What ever happened to George Wallace, Eugene McCarthy, John Anderson, Ross Perot, Newt Gingrich, Howard Dean? Why are presidential candidates acceptable to the national party "leaders" always so unwilling or unable to arouse the MASS enthusiasm of the electorate? Why are they always so lacking in charisma? How does one account for the many incompetently run campaigns that we are served one after another? How could anyone lose to Bush in 2004 without some intent behind it? Is it really an accident that we have had the same two parties, through all their changes, for 145 years? I think not.

-- Regards
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Interesting comments...
While I still contend my point that even the "they" as you've identified them still stand to gain little by not being more opportunistic toward their opponents (as I believe that the party leadership stands to lose more than any individual party member through continued apathy and loss of elections), it is food for thought. I'll have to check out that book you mentioned.

It seems to me that, if your contentions are correct, the only party which might be able to overtake the plumbing in Washington is one that isn't entrenched, a grass-roots third party which doesn't have much to lose, doesn't have a national leadership image to worry about, and has nothing to fear from staying on platform. However, don't get me started on the incipient difficulties in third-party politics:

Green Party: Right idea, too narrow of a focus. Environmentalism is a wonderful concern but it isn't the only one.
Reform Party: Self destructed because it was just a mirror image of Republicanism's more libertarian side, and the head of the party, a multi-billionaire, isn't exactly the face of the "people".
Independents: There is safety in numbers, that's why these guys and gals rarely win.

But it always remains an option.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes....
Edited on Tue Apr-04-06 02:20 PM by bemildred
1.) It is true that the short and long term interests of "they", as I have constructed them, are in opposition, but to lose power is to lose all, and hence they will choose to rule in the rubble rather than reliquish of their one instrument of power.

2.) That is correct, and it is the third party or populist movements that are feared most, and where the most vigorous action is taken. The two parties, normally "enemies", will collude whenever the structure of power is undermined. My favorite example is in California, where back in the 90s we passed an open primary law, and the result was that within six months the two parties quietly and unanimously joined to reverse the law, which had passed by a large margin, and the issue has not been raised again. And why is this important? Because the parties ability to reject candidates at the primary level is its fundamental instrument of control over individual politicians. Without that, the parties have no means to exclude charismatic leaders with their own followings, like Mr. Perot or Mr. Dean, and such movements must be thwarted early lest they grow. It is therefore essential to keep the primaries closed and the turnout small, the better to control the result, and consequently the party itself.

Had Mr. Perot been in a position to run as a Republican he would have been much more formidable, and he would have been able to force HIS agenda into the Republican political debate. It is telling, is it not, that there are still so few national politicians that will attack the principle of aggressive foreign wars? There must be some explanation for that, don't you think? It is because such politicians will not get the support, and may be attacked, by the national parties for violating that, and certain other, taboos.

---

There are some political changes in certain states that tend to undermine the system as it has existed since the Civil War, open primaries, public financing of elections, the large public interest in the election system generated by the last few elections. It is my impression that the system is breaking down, becoming more difficult to maintain then it once was. I have tentatively considered that the current push to improve the power of the federal executive is motivated in some part by the breakdown of the old 2-party system of control.

I know is seems a bit odd at first, but I have found that it has remarkable predictive power, for instance it allowed me to anticipate that Kerry would tank in 2004, when Mr. Dean was swarmed under and Kerry installed in his place, and I take the egregious way in which he was forced to do it as an indication of how narrowly the decision was kept under control. It also allows one to explain otherwise bizarre occurrences like the foisting of Lieberman on Gore in the 2000 race and the near unanimous failure the the Democrats to protest the rigging of the 2000 and 2004 elections. And best of all it explains the long string of mediocre stooges of both parties that we have had, with only a few bright exceptions, in the Presidency. It is party control, fearing that their betters might seize power, that prevents the more able candidates from succeeding to the reins of presidential power.

I do not mean to imply that other political issues and forces are not at work, only that for certain types of occurrences and issues that appear otherwise anomalous in US politics, I have found this way of thinking very useful.
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