John Kerry. Two Deadlines and an Exit

[occuserpens]

Kerry on the Iraqi exit strategy

Two Deadlines and an Exit

[ginnyinWI]

1. just go to his website and get the whole thing at once

http://kerry.senate.gov/v3/cfm/home.cfm

No need to register! :)

[saltpoint]

2. John Kerry upped the ante with this address in the NYTimes.

McClellan blathered his way through some sort of rejection of Kerry's strong tenets but in the wake of so many lies and deceptions by the administration, the clarity of its detractors wins the day.

Kerry is not a flashy man but he is a sincere man, and his plan is a hell of a lot better than anything Rumsfeld has put on the president's desk so far.

Red voters who cast their support for Dubya in 04 may not be brave enough to respond to Kerry's plan and they may go on pretending that their guy is the better national security bet.

But if that's their position, they're the south end of a north bound horse.

Go, Kerry. Go, Dems.

[occuserpens]

3. Go where?

All this is completely irrelevant to the actual situation in Iraq

[saltpoint]

4. I read Kerry's piece in the TIMES. It seemed quite relevant to me.

If there is a specific paragraph in Kerry's piece where you feel he goes awry, pin it down and we'll discuss it.

Space allocation dictates that he didn't have quite the expansive room to develop the points, but still I feel he got the job done.

McClellan's rejection of Kerry's tenets, as I stated earlier in this thread, were unpersuasive. More bean mesh from the White House on meaningful proposals for an end to the war.

Saying "Go, Kerry," or "Go, Democrats," or "Go, White Sox" is a phrase of affirmation. Part acknowledgment, part team spirit if you like, and significantly, part affirmation.

I liked Kerry's piece. I voted for him. He uses his considerable gifts, not the least of which is his command of language, to elevate and not tear down. If Dubya gets a good lickin' in a piece Kerry pens, I say it's because Dubya has it comin'.

I would assert that those considerations are not only relevant to "the actual situation in Iraq" but definitional to anyone who has been there, as Senator Kerry has. And relevant to us here on these boards.

[occuserpens]

5. Hmmm...

Check the blog comment I am linking (Kerry on the Iraqi exit strategy). No, his article has very little to do with actual situation in Iraq :-(

[saltpoint]

6. When you post, occuserpens, you might want to throw in a few

summary remarks to establish context.

The link provided does indeed mention John Kerry, Kerry's op ed piece of yesterday morning, and so again, if you have some sort of problem with that, you should either write to Kerry directly, post something that provides context and intent in your own post here -- which you've failed to do so far -- or go bowling.

It doesn't matter a damn to me. It's your post.

[occuserpens]

7. Here it goes

It started from Juan Cole commenting on JFK, then quite a number of people including myself responded.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/04/exit-plans-senator-john-kerry-argues.html

[saltpoint]

8. Between posts on DU I have read your comments on the link, as well

as several you have posted either as contributor or OP regarding foreign affairs generally and Israeli-Palstinian affairs more specifically.

Some might accuse you of Kerry-bashing, though i have not done so tonight. You will concede, I hope, that you are likely to encounter supporters of Senator Kerry, and I count myself among them, some of whose loyalty to his career predates Nixon's resignation. The components of said loyalty are not casual accoutrements of doe-eyed optimists, but the earned dominion of genuine citizenship.

The piece in the TIMES on Wednesday morning was sadly abbreviated by space concerns, but otherwise well-enough developed to bring pressure to bear on Coalition involvement (or skullduggery) in the once-sovereign and now chaotic country of Iraq. Alexander never dreamed, I'm sure, that his capital would collapse into piles of smoking rubble at the hands of a fool like Donald Rumsfeld. Yet there it is. Kerry's piece laid out a clear plan, something the Bush administration has never had and apparently has not felt the need to develop. After all, it is not in the U.S.'s best interest to leave Iraq. In Afghanistan, Kharzai is there not because he is much-loved among tribal warloards (many of whom hate his guts) but, as you know, because he was a former mover and shaker at a major western oil company. The oil pipeline would not coincidentally run right through Afghanistan on its way to port in the Indian Ocean. A call for any exit at all aligns Kerry and any of his supporters against a powerful cabal of murky conspirators pretty high up on the power scale. The piece was brainy and ballsy both.

If Bush wanted out of Iraq, he'd manufacture a scenario so fast it would make our heads spin. Powerful forces wanted that oil and were willing to slaughter West Virginian and Ohioan kids to get it. Abu Ghraib isn't the first locus of political torture in history but it's embarrassingly one of the latest, and Kerry's remarks about the kind of sick fuck who would operate such a place are clear and absolute. Implicit in his piece this morning was 'strategy,' also something sorely lacking from Bush's foreign policy, and which would be an imperative under the deadline/exit proposal Kerry posited in the TIMES piece.

And on and on. I honor you your range, occuserpens, but with no summary material on that post, there just wasn't a damn thing to respond to. You like to use links, often 2 URLs in your posts, I see that, but Jesus man, we're on THIS board, not those other boards. Summarize a point and put it up for discussion. There are a lot of people on DU who will honor your scope and range, whether they agree with you or not.

[occuserpens]

12. Well

I am following the war in Iraq and ME situation <a>very</b> closely. From this POV, it appears that:
-- JFK's call for withdrawal is perfectly OK.
-- The way he describes situation in Iraq is not OK :-(

[saltpoint]

14. Your brevity is a bit too brief for me. Fine with me if you don't like

John Kerry, but it needs to be fine with you if others DO like John Kerry, and if you are going to serve up a "Go Where?' flippancy, you might want to provide some expansive comments to support it.

You didn't.

I honor what you have done on some -- not all -- of the foreign policy posts and respect your range, but you've missed the red side of a green barn on Senator Kerry.

And more to the point perhaps, is that I would have welcomed a conversation with you, having posted initially in good faith. I got very little back for my effort.

It might be more effective for you in your posts to stop using a links-only text and actually POST something for other DUers to properly consider.

[sandnsea]

9. Apparently Juan Cole can't read

"Kerry seems to be under the impression that the US is fighting "al-Qaeda" in Iraq, which is generally not true."

Kerry clearly doesn't say that and a man as informed on Iraq as Juan Cole is ought to know Kerry's long position on Iraq, and that he has said on numerous occasions that less than 10% of the fighting is due to al qaeda type terrorists.

I stopped reading right there because anybody who would make such a stupid statement doesn't deserve my time. I don't care who he is.

[rodeodance]

10. it got very little media coverage as far as I know. Sad.

[rodeodance]

11. see the DU thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2551946

[occuserpens]

13. Thanks

[MasonJar]

15. I admire Juan Cole, but I do not think that he has more knowledge

or experience in this discussion than John Kerry. A deadline is essential for the sake of the Iraqis and our troops and the nation. The threat as I see it is the exact opposite of Bush's take. I believe that the longer we fight the insurgents in Iraq the more likely we are to fight them here in our streets.

[saltpoint]

16. Agree with you on Cole. A fine writer, no question. But Kerry is no

slouch on foreign policy generally and is better-versed than Cole on Iraq.

I'm not dumping Cole -- I like to read him. But Kerry has won this day.

[occuserpens]

17. The point is

JFK is just maneuvering around. What he says is good, but too little and too late. If he said this before Fukuyama and others, before the Iraqi "elections", before the Samarra Shrine disaster - that would be a different thing.

Most importantly, no plans make any sense while these people rule.

[saltpoint]

18. "Maneuvering around" ? Not so. What you are seeing from Kerry now

is public service, by definition. If you want "maneuvering," I recommend Condoleeza Rice's testimony to the 9/11 Commission.

The trajectory of public service in Senator Kerry over a period of decades does not constitute "maneuvering around." You've missed the boat on that completely.

I would insist that the proposal is timely as well, given the president's own failure and the failure of his Cabinet and advisors to propose a workable alternative.

"No plans make any sense while these people rule" ? A nihilist might think so, but despite recent hits lately under Bush II, this remains a constitutional republic, and public service is one of its more encouraging components.

And in any case, I prefer a response by public figures to challenge a bad policy. Kerry has done that, has done it consistently, and has done it well.

[occuserpens]

19. Maneuvering...

<I recommend Condoleeza Rice's testimony to the 9/11 Commission.>

I would not call this maneuvering. More exactly, as a neocon, Rice is engaged in ideological reality creation. Whatever garbage she says is supposed to be true.

<I would insist that the proposal is timely as well, given the president's own failure and the failure of his Cabinet and advisors to propose a workable alternative.>

IMO, those who track Iraq attentively, hardly agree. I just fail to see any particular signs that JFK actually listens to those who know what is going on there.

<"No plans make any sense while these people rule" ? A nihilist might think so, but despite recent hits lately under Bush II, this remains a constitutional republic, and public service is one of its more encouraging components.>

I know it is hard for a political activist to admit such things, but this is the only analytical explanation for the current situation.

[saltpoint]

20. That's about all the snark I need from you, dude. Adios.

[pacalo]

21. You handled yourself beautifully, Old Crusoe.

You are the clear winner of the verbal tennis match. You aced it.