truly scary ... the Disciple Generation, the new evangelism in Seattle

[bobbieinok]

http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/621950.html#cutid1

At Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Snoop Dogg figures in sermons, housewives cradle babies in tattooed arms -- and religious fundamentalism rules. Meet the Disciple Generation, the fierce new face of American evangelism.

By Lauren Sandler
From Salon.com






Sept. 13, 2006 | SEATTLE --

....

The way Driscoll sees it, the more babies his conservative Christian congregation can produce in this child-poor city, the more they can redirect local politics, public education, and culture in one of the liberal capitals of the world. To complete his trifecta of indoctrinating, voting, and breeding, Driscoll has developed a community that dwarfs any living experiment of the '60s. To say that Mars Hill is just a church is to say that Woodstock was just a concert.

....

Following Driscoll's biblical reading of prescribed gender roles, women quit their jobs and try to have as many babies as possible. And these are no mere women who fear independence, who are looking to live by the simple tenets of fundamentalist credo, enforced by a commanding husband: many of the women of Mars Hill reluctantly abandon successful lives lived on their own terms to serve their husbands and their Lord. Accountability and community is ballasted by intricately organized cells -- gender-isolated support groups that form a social life as warm and tight as swaddling clothes, or weekly coed sermon studies and family dinner parties that provide further insulation against the secular world. Parents share child care, realtors share clients, teachers share lesson plans, animé buffs share DVDs, and bands share songs.

After Driscoll prays for the continued fertility of his congregation, and the worship band cranks out a few fierce guitar licks, the sermon begins. Pacing the stage like a stand-up pro, blending observational humor about parenting with ribald biblical storytelling, Driscoll peppers his message with references to his own children as midget demons and recalls his own past in stories about duct-taping and hog-tying his own siblings. He riffs about waiting in a supermarket checkout line behind a woman who said to him, "You sure got a lot of kids! I hope you've figured out what causes that."

"Yeah," he flipped back. "A blessed wife. I bet you don't have any kids." The congregation hoots and hollers. "That shut her up," he mutters.

....

The Mars Hill community resembles the shared-land communes of the '60s far more than any traditional society of churchgoers. It's a little shocking to see this experimental model exploded into a megachurch that is rolling back the achievements of the '60s generation, its current emphasis on connection and meaning a tool to convert purpose-seeking postfeminists into self-described proud submission.

....

At a weekly Bible study class at a Mars Hill pastor's home, Abolafya first heard about the doctrine of wifely submission. The pastor's wife gave Abolafya a book to study called "The Fruit of Her Hands," which can essentially be summed up in Ephesians 5:22: "Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord." When Abolafya stretched out on her couch one evening to read the first chapter of the book, she screamed and threw it across the room. But she prayed to God and was led back to the Bible, to understand Wilson's perspective. In the Bible, Abolafya found story after story about women being willfully deceived, following their own desires, wreaking travesty in their relationships and homes. In these stories she saw signs of her own past, her mother's behavior, her friends' actions. She began to submit to Ari about purchases and plans she wanted to make.


More at link...

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[WCGreen]

1. Al that following of desire, willfull deceptive behavior

and wreaking havoc is never ever done by men...

Never...

Do you hear me...

We would be Saints on earth if those women would just not tempt us...



WHAT A CROC OF SHIT...

[bobbieinok]

2. a blog from someone who left Mars Hill

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=40325176&blogID=167466741

Note the comments. Towards the end there is a discussion of whether or not the church views women as 2nd class and a discussion of 'submission.'

[bluestateguy]

3. I don't think I'll ever join an organized religion

Though I very much do believe in God. Organized religion is just the source for too many of the world's problems and demented people.

[Joe Bacon]

38. I've seen what Christianity did to my family.

Turned them from being liberal Democrats who gave a damn about others into hard core Republicans who bullshit about Jesus but follow Ayn (as in Mine) Rand. All they are interested in is getting as much as they can and f everyone else. Their TV Preacher Pals tell them that God wants them to be rich. The more God loves you, the richer you get. Based on that bullshit, God must REALLY love Bill Gates OR he's the greatest asskisser of all time...

All I hear from each one of my family is "Me Me Me". And they want to get as much as they can now because they really believe the Rapture is coming in a week or 2. They really believe that Jesus and the Apostles are right now finishing up their gig on Alpha Centauri. They just pulled into the Howard Johnson's and as soon as Jesus finishes his clam roll and peppermint stick ice cream, He and the Band are gonna crank up the old VW Bus and head for earth where they will start THE GREAT FLOAT OFF® whereby every rich white Christian Republican will get into the VW Bus with JC and his Sonshine Band and they're gonna get warped up into heaven.

My family does not care about their credit card debts, bills or future plans. They really believe they're gonna be in THE GREAT FLOAT OFF®.

I want no part of that garbage.

[TwentyFive]

4. Scary yes - but where are all of our LIBERAL Christians?

Liberal Christians are less than 10% of all christians. However, here at DU they are in full swing as christian apologists, shouting down anybody who dares speak out against their 'faith.'

I will repeat what I've always said about christianity: "Christians are violent towards anybody who lives outside their religion.

Violent...like the Crusades, Holocaust, Dark Ages, Inquistion, Gay Bashing, etc. These people follow god...especially the violent parts.

[Vexatious Ape]

5. True

I've been pistol whipped on line by many christian liberals who lose it any time I say something about the danger of organized religion--or, dog forbid, Islam. That article about "hip christians" in Seattle is chilling--but will be defended by both the right and the left--sadly.

[melnjones]

6. ...?

I speak out about crappy christianity quite a bit, as a liberal christian...

And I'm not sure how the violent part of your post relates to those of us who are pacifists, but oh well.

[TwentyFive]

15. Dear christian liberal pacifist

I'm curious how important the bible is to you? If you are a pacifist liberal christian, I assume that you discount at least parts of the bible as false or irrelevant?

All the conservative christians I know are dedicated to reading and studying the bible, attending church, etc. Conversely, the liberal christians I know seldom if ever look at the bible.

Perhaps if you put more effort into bible reading, you would become more conservative, and give up your pacifist ways.

[bperci108]

17. I'll take a shot at this...

"I assume that you discount at least parts of the bible as false or irrelevant?'

Why?

This assumption might hold if he is a "strict literalist" and those folks are usually fundies, therefore not "liberal".

This attack is similar to the Fundies' attack on the totality of Islam as a "religion of violence".

Which particular parts get your knickers in a twist? Please be specific.


"...the liberal christians I know seldom if ever look at the bible."

And my experience is the opposite.

So your point is?



"Perhaps if you put more effort into bible reading, you would become more conservative, and give up your pacifist ways."

Why would he want to do that? So he could better conform to your hateful stereotype?

Perhaps you should put a little more effort into becoming a more tolerant Liberal. :)

[melnjones]

23. Dude, I'm a she!

lol :hi:

[bperci108]

26. Sorry....

:blush:


I stand corrected. :hi:

[melnjones]

28. lol, no problem. nt

[melnjones]

19. good questions...

The bible is quite important to me, but I do not believe it is word-for-word written by God...it's a document that has to always be read in its historical and literary context, and even then many parts are difficult to understand because we are so amazingly far removed from the time and place it was written. I hold the bible as authoritative in my life but fully admit I do not understand it all and I am forced to give pause when I hear or am taught an interpretation that is contrary to the peaceful loving example of Christ. (By the way, typically those who would largely bash the bible have not studied it in its historical and literary context either...and why should they, if they don't believe the bible to be authoritative? Regardless, they are typically no better experts on the subject than are the ignorant Christians they bash...and often bash with good reason!)

I would love to put more effort into bible reading...but seeing as how i'm a seminary student and the bed on which I am resting while I type this reply is half covered in biblical greek study aids, bible commentaries, and other bible/theological books, including a bible itself, i'm not sure how this seminary student can do a lot more bible reading and not die of sleep deprivation. By the way, I also work at my church...so attending church is kinda important.

I'm sorry you have such a poor view of christians...you probably wouldn't feel this way had you not seen some poor examples of christianity. I've seen those examples too and experienced the damage they can bring...just know we are not ALL like that :-)

[bperci108]

21. You make many good points....

...but I don't think your audience will be swayed by the facts. :shrug:

Some strident, militant atheists' behavior exactly mimics the insufferable Fundie pricks they profess to hate so much.

As Pogo said: "We have met the enemy and he is us". ;)

[melnjones]

24. possibly not...but I can't totally say i blame them.

It's a miracle that I'm even in the church. I've seen and experienced first hand some of the CRAP that often goes on there. I hope my "audience" here someday is able to meet and get to know some undeniably loving christians. That's really the only way to break the fundie stereotype that we all now have to carry.

[Bill McBlueState]

40. Why the atheist strawman?

You're the only one in this thread who has said anything about atheists. In a thread about a Christian cult, you've brought up "militant atheists" as though the behavior of a group of people who may or may not exist (do you have any examples?) is relevant to the very real cult described in the OP.

[NAO]

9. The 3rd Century had a "cure" for "liberal" Christians (aka Gnostics)

burn the heretics! burn their writings! destroy the evidence that they ever existed!

As soon as the Catholic Church had the power, they set out on a systematic program of persecution and destruction. They did not allow Christians who believed differently than them to survive. That's why it was called the "Catholic" (Universal) Church.

***

As the great Robert Ingersoll wrote:

"Give any orthodox church the power, and to-day they would punish heresy with whip, and chain, and fire. As long as a church deems a certain belief essential to salvation, just so long it will kill and burn if it has the power. Why should the church pity a man whom her God hates? Why should she show mercy to a kind and noble heretic whom her God will burn in eternal fire? Why should a Christian be better than his God? It is impossible for the imagination to conceive of a greater atrocity than has been perpetrated by the church. Every nerve in the human body capable of pain has been sought out and touched."

"Let it be remembered that all churches have persecuted heretics to the fullest extent of their power. Toleration has increased only when and where the power of the church has diminished. From Augustine until now the spirit of the Christians has remained the same. There has been the same intolerance, the same undying hatred of all who think for themselves, and the same determination to crush out of the human brain all knowledge inconsistent with an ignorant creed."

from Heretics and Heresies
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/heretics_and_hericies.html

[shrike]

25. Actually, the gnostics were mystics

Live out in the desert, and all that. Not sure if I'd call that liberal, but maybe you would.

The Gnostics were turned into heroes of sorts by the Da Vinci code, but their beliefs were a bit more complicated than that.

[NAO]

31. Gnostics were everywhere; in urban churches; much more than desert mystics

There were dozens if not hundreds of varieties of Gnostic sects.

I have not seen/read the "Da Vinci Code" so I don't know how they were portrayed in that movie.

In the historical record, we see orthodox Christians, starting in the late 2nd century, obsessed with refuting and suppressing Gnostic "heresies".

Ireanaeus, Tertullian, and Epiphanias were the big three "heresy hunters", but there were countless others working to make sure that there was one version of Christianity.

[shrike]

39. Well, I speak of the Gnostic gospels

And what I know of them is a much more "mystical" approach to the story.

[bperci108]

11. Really?

"However, here at DU they are in full swing as christian apologists, shouting down anybody who dares speak out against their 'faith.'"

But an atheist would never do such a thing, right?


"I will repeat what I've always said about christianity: "Christians are violent towards anybody who lives outside their religion."

ALL of them?

Wow....:wow:

Tell me again how rational stereotypes are? ;)

[TwentyFive]

12. And I'm sure 100% of Nazis weren't ALL bad either

but they were little comfort to the 6 million jews that were killed.

It is wrong and irresponsible to whitewash the atrocities commited EVERY TIME the goddamned christians have obtained political power. If you want to be an apologist for this bloody religion, that's your problem, not mine.

[bperci108]

16. Thanks for making my point...

...about the absurdity and stupidity of gross generalizations and stereotypes.

The reductio ad Hitlerum argument was a nice touch, too... :rofl:

I can go look in the mirror to see that your hysterical stereotype is just so much bullshit.

But hey, don't let me rain on your little pity party... :cry:

[melnjones]

20. The political power thing is problematic...

and there are some liberal christians who are every bit as upset with it as you are. We are just far fewer in number and lack that political power that the fundie right has. See http://www.sojourners.com/ for a good example of what the non-fundies are trying to do.

Also, keep in mind that we liberal christians also often have to be apologists to our fellow christians for our political views. We don't find a ton of acceptance really anywhere. Jesus never said his followers would be popular. In fact he said just the opposite. The fundies forget that sometimes and demand acceptance...so not biblical...

[bperci108]

30. I would disagree.

The radical, political, Fundie Right is a small minority. They are beautifully organized; the left could learn much from their activism and organization.

But they are ultimately just the "useful idiots" of the corporate power elite.

Our problem on the christian (nominal or otherwise) left?

In a word: Apathy.

But that is beginning to change. Most Christians are liberal, even if they don't know it yet. They need to be told the truth and take their religion back from the nutjob Tali-Bornagain that have hijacked it.

[melnjones]

32. You know, you have a point...

I really grew up in fundie hell, then attended a christian school (still attend, getting my masters now), and live in Indiana. So, I've been so surrounded by fundies that I forget that they really are actually a minority. Whenever I walk into a christian setting I always have my guard up b/c for me it has almost always meant fundie-world...and then I'm pleasantly surprised when I find christians that are actually liberal. There really are quite a few, even here in Indiana. Praise God for my wonderful professors. They are amazing.

Thanks for the reality check!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. Well, we're not attending churches like Mars Hill, that's for sure

As the article said, the members are socially isolated from outside influences and trained to automatically reject anything that doesn't fit their group's doctrine.

If I were to try to talk to a person who attends one of those groups, such as explaining the historical context for those passages about wifely submission, they'd probably say, "You're the devil trying to deceive me," or something of that ilk.

[melnjones]

7. *cringe*

Nothing bothers me more than the whole "women must be submissive" line. These people are scary...and I've met far too many of them in my lifetime.

[silverweb]

8. Sounds like a great deal.

For the males.

:eyes:

I wonder how many of these young women are going to end up having nervous breakdowns, depression, etc, when they hit their 40s. We've been through all this before, ladies.

[SquireJons]

10. What ever happened to religion being a private thing?

When I was growing up, the message that I got from the church I was raised in (catholic) and from society in general was that a persons faith was a personal matter. Good deeds were honored but proselytizing and political grandstanding were frowned upon. Fast forward 35 years and religion has been turned on it's head. It seems that the galvanizing force behind religions these days is intolerance, politics and wealth. It's ironic to me that the current 'great awakening' began with counter culture young people in the late 60's and early 70's. Godspell and Jesus Christ Superstar somehow begat the Moral Majority, the 700 Club and the Christian Coalition. How did this happen? Did the people inside the various churches change their views or were the church administrations the victims of a political coup? A bit of both, I think but who could have guessed that in a country with so much education there would be so many people choosing to be ignorant about the world around them?

It's a sad symbol of the times we live in that the most remarkable pope in several centuries (John Paul II) has been succeeded by a former Nazi who wants to turn his back on science and who fosters inter-faith hostility. It's much like the US presidency, where one of the most successful presidents (Clinton) is succeeded by one of the worst... ever. It's almost like god hasn't made a final determination on good vs. evil yet and is giving both a good looking at.

[TwentyFive]

13. John Paul? He visits Africa and tells people NOT to wear condoms?

Thanks to the sex advice of Pope John Paul II, millions of people are DEAD from AIDS. What is remarkable about that?

[bperci108]

18. It is remarkable that you can make this leap of "logic".

That JP II was somehow a mass murderer. :rofl:


I can just see 'ol Karol Wojtyla running around Africa poking holes in all of the Trojans and hacking up the local Apothecary with his crucifix walking stick, ala Carrie Nation and her hatchet.

Last time I checked people, (even catholic ones) excersise their own free will to wear a little rubber thing on the end of their John Thomas and often gleefully disregard the sex advice of their church. It's just human nature, friend. :)

Do you really think that the Pope or Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson has that kind of power?

What sort of comic-book world do you live in?

Puhleeze...

[melnjones]

22. well, i think whether or not the pope

had that kind of power is a moot point in some ways, as I believe that the message of abstinence-only, preached in a secular setting, is wrong and dangerous no matter how you slice it...even if people aren't going to listen. Lack of audience doesn't make the message suddenly ok.

However, I do have great respect for John Paul II and think it would be ignorant to throw out all of his good qualities along with the bad...and personally I think the good greatly outweigh the bad IMO.

[SquireJons]

36. Who's perfect?

I didn't say I agreed with everything that John Paul did or said, but that doesn't change the fact that as popes go, he was a radical leftist. He was still a conservative on social issues and of course tried to uphold traditional church teachings on things like sexual relations and the role of women within the church. But in the area of international relations, I don't think that there was a more positive leader anywhere in the world for over a decade. He helped bring down a totalitarian system that dominated eastern europe, he worked hard to promote understanding and acceptance of other people and religions, and he strongly supported the causes of third world countries, even when that support was in direct confrontation with the Reagan administration.

To me, he was quite remarkable. I wish we could have another like him. These are dark days for the catholic church, both internationally and in the US. Now, instead of issuing papers from the council of american bishops condemning the nuclear arms race and immoral US foreign policy, we have the catholic church basically allying itself with the neocons and denying accepted science. That was my point; not that John Paul was perfect or even a lot like me. But as world leaders go, he was truly great.

[ClintonTyree]

14. But........but........

I thought christians in this country were being PERSECUTED! To hear them tell it there's a WAR against christianity going on, they're being wiped off the face of the earth because of their beliefs. Do you mean that isn't true?

These people start out seriously deluded and it gets progressively worse from there. They've given up all contact with reality and live in their little "bible bubbles". How can any rational, thinking person buy into this horse-shit? Critical thinking skills are in short supply in our country. I'm glad I'm nearing the end of my life. Living in a world where these people are in charge would certainly not be a life worth living.

[melnjones]

27. Few things anger me more than

hearing christians talk about how they are persecuted for their faith in the USA. As Americans, we have a right to freely practice our faith...and we do! However, our status as christians in no way gives us the right to expect acceptance of our faith by our nation. That right ONLY comes from our status as Americans and christians need to learn to separate the two.

We've got it made here...how can christians say we are persecuted knowing that places like China exist in the world? My christian brothers and sisters often need to grow-the-hell-up.

[shrike]

29. Sounds a little like Jim Jones

Who came out of San Francisco, further south.
Also sounds rather cultish. The author of the book "Cults in our Midst," Margaret Thaler Singer, would probably have some interest in these folks. (I know many people on DU consider religion and cults the same thing, but Singer does not, and in her book she outlines why.)
It wouldn't surprise me if law enforcement were keeping an eye on these people.

[Briar]

34. Channel 4 in the UK

is currently showing a programme called "The Bible Code" which is even more scary. This is about the endtimers and the harm they are doing throughout the world, either directly or via their influence on the Bush regime.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/doomsday.html

These people aren't just crazy, they are dangerous, and according to the programme 59 per cent of Americans believe the crap in the Book of Revelation is true!

[IndianaGreen]

35. "Mark Driscoll's Jesus is no sandal-wearing pacifist."

Mark Driscoll's Jesus is no sandal-wearing pacifist. When Driscoll invokes his Lord, he describes an uncompromising disciplinarian who demands utter obedience from his followers in exchange for rescue from an eternity in hell. "

Of course, this new version of Jim Jones is the ultimate interpreter of what Jesus demands from his followers. What's the difference between this group and the polygamist communities that have been in the news lately?

[Demeter]

37. It's Been Tried Before

Flooding the world with one's progeny to dominate the politics or the religion or whatever.

Hasn't really worked very well, or for very much time.

Now, flooding one's people with a real education has always worked, provided the educated outweighed the bigotted, ignorant, superstitious, and corrupt. It certainly gives one more tools in life.