Everybody Wants to Claim God is on their Side

[ixion]

by Heather Gray

It appears that everyone these days wants to claim that God is somehow involved in their war or massacre or similar plans. George Bush says God guides him… Ariel Sharon says the same… Tony Blair has similar sentiments. Hitler said God was with him when he invaded west European countries to protect and free them from the scourge of British influence. Recently U.S. Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin has received a slew of criticism for his comments at a religious group in Oregon, saying "radical Islamists hate the United States 'because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian. And the enemy is a guy named Satan'". Saddam Hussein says God is on his side. With all these folks claiming God must be on their side, I thought, heck, I'd like get in on the act and have my say as well. And anyway, given this is the season when the Christians in the world reflect upon the birth of Jesus, God, and the importance of religion generally, it seemed vital to review some history regarding all of this - it might even have some relevance to what the US is doing today in the Middle East.



<snip>

Interestingly, Jews, Christians and Muslims, whether they are the oppressors or the oppressed, all worship the same God. To say this is a convoluted situation is an understatement. Regarding Jesus, however, the question remains, would he have been on the side of the apartheid state, the white supremacists in America, the U.S. abusers in the Philippines, Israeli occupiers and abusers of Palestinians, and the US imperialists and occupiers now in Iraq? What do you think?


more...


This is a long read, but worth it. It really frames the debate as it should be framed for when discussing wars fought on the grounds of moral clarity, as it were. I get really tired of these fundies who think they have the one and only true path.




http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1222-06.htm

[TNDemo]

1. The one line I remember from Angels and Demons

is that where you find true believers there is usually a high body count.

[HawkerHurricane]

2. Old Non-Sequitor cartoon...

Shows two men, one on the ground, the other with his sword to the first's throat... Surrounded by hundreds of bodies...
And the man on the ground says...
"All right, you win; God really IS on your side."

[d_ashley]

3. Christians, Muslims, and Jews

Christians believe in the Holy Trinity. God the father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. They believe that both the Old and New Testaments are the inspired Word of God.

Jews do not believe Jesus was the Son of God, but rather are still waiting for the Messiah to come as promised in the Old Testament.

Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Son of God either, but rather a prophet of Allah, the one true God according to Muhammed and the Koran.

How could the same God have two completely different, and at the same time contradictory, set of rules (Bible, the Koran, etc) for allowing individuals into heaven?

From an outside point-of-view it may seem like all are serving the same Creator. However, ask a Muslim what they think will happen to Christians when they die (or vice-versa) and their is no question that they most certainly do not serve the same God.

[Landlord]

5. Truth

d_ashley has it right, please allow me to elaborate. To understand religion I think you first believe in(a)God. If you do not, nothing I say further will make sense to you. The following is a long post.
The Quaran(Koran) tries to be a different version of the Old Testment.
If you read both of them you will notice the difference. The Old Testment leads up to the most important event in the New Testement-the birth of Jesus, our Saviour. If you read both Testements with an honest mind you will see this is true. Christianity has influnced not only Islam, but also Hinduism. Read the works of Ph.D's Deivanayagam and Jothimani on two main forms of Hinduism; Vishnu and Shiva. Buddah, Confucius, and Lau Tzo(Taoism) all originate from men. Wise men to be sure, however they basically stress an "if you try hard enough you will find god" within concept. A study, even briefly of the works, actions and results of these eastern "religions", can prove that they are not quite the way to go to enlightenment.
This leaves us with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I personally consider Christianity a second more diverse, and difficult-to-humanly-implament chapter of God. A review of the Bible and the Koran will reveal that of two, only Christianity is the way to God. Again, only if you believe in God will this make sense to you. Unless the rest of the Democratic party returns to our Christian heritage we will FOREVER be a good example of what NOT to vote for. Bring biblical Christianity back to the Democratic Party and America will return to the Democrats.

[The Magistrate]

8. The 'Old Testament', Mr. Lord, Does No Such Thing

It recounts the history of the Jewish people, with varying degrees of distortion and fantasy, and the incorporation of various legal codes, and presents that history as the acts of a diety operating directly on the world. In order to view it as "leading up to" the rather slimmer Christian texts, it is necessary to wrench each word from context, and subject it to a variety of symbolic readings, not one of which is necessary to the plain understanding of the text, or even particularly implied by it. The doing is a textbook exercise in finding what you want, regardless of whether it is actually present, and as an intellectual exercise, has a good deal in common with the mental processes of those poor souls who are convinced, say, that Halle Berry's wearing a purple blouse on an Entertainment Channel interview really means she has professed her undying love for him, and has invited him to her home to consumate same next Teusday afternoon. Though pursued with great seriousness and solemnity, it is not really a serious exercise, and provides a good deal of mirth when viewed from the proper angle.

[Landlord]

11. Read

Magistrate, thank you for your reply. As I have stated before, if you believe in God and have an honest mind you will see that the Bible is true. All you have to do is read it. To open your heart to the Old Testament's fortelling of Jesus read Genesis 49:10, Isaih 53, especially verses 5 and 6. Verse 5 fortells of the Gospel's mention of Jesus taking the sin of mankind upon his shoulders and verse 6 tells of his future crucifiction. Micah 5:2 mentions Bethlehem will be the birth of this saviour. In the New Testement, John 8:58 mentions that Jesus existed before Abraham.

[The Magistrate]

12. In Other Words, Sir

If you already believe in it, reading it will convince you it is true.

You must be able, Sir, to see the air of snake rolling tail in mouth down the road about the statement.

In none of the verses you mention is there any direct statement endorsing your theological views in the text: there are words that can be tortured into confessing the meaning you desire, but that is not quite the same thing.

As a point of curiousity, Mr. Lord, and it may have occured to you this is the situation you are here confronted with, what about a fellow with an honest mind who reads your text without the least belief in diety? What is such a one likely to draw from it?

Indeed, Sir, it seems odd to me that a person who claims belief in a diety both all-good and all-powerful can possibly read through that text with an honest and open mind and heart and emerge with that view intact: there is no more effective way to create agnostics at the least, Mr. Lord, than to get people to read it all the way through....

[GOPFighter]

9. What Christian Heritage?

I know neither Jefferson nor Franklin considered themselves "Christians." Neither was a religious fanatic like most "Christians" of today. Can you name any of the Founding Fathers who considered thaemselves a a born-again Christian?

Also, it sounds like you want the Democrats to declare the U.S. a "Chistian" nation and embrace "Christian" ideals. So what do we do to the Moslems and Jews and other non-christians in America? Convert or leave?

[Landlord]

13. History

GOPFighter, thank you for your reply. Both men you have mentioned believed in the Christian God. Mr. Franklin in his "Maxims and Morals" quotes Scripture and prayers. At the end of his life, B.Franklin wrote to Robert Livingston the following;"'I am now entering my 78th year; I wish now to be, for the little time I have left, my own master...I shall be happy to sing with old Simeon(Simon f the Bible)'Now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, for mine eyes have seen thy salvation.'" Mr. evidence of T.Jefferson's belief in God read the Declaration of Liberty,"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator...Also read Jefferson's Prayer for Peace from his second inaugural address in 1804.
People of all faiths live in our country. Wether they wish to believe in God is their choice. However you may have noticed that by over a, if I remember correctly 5:1 ration Christians have moved to the GOP. The Democratic party must return to our Christian heritage, if it does not it will ALWAYS be a minority party.

[The Magistrate]

14. You Would Do Well, Sir

To look into Deism, the general view of educated gentlemen in the late eighteenth century. It is Christian, in the sense, perhaps, that Bishop Sprong is Christian, but that is hardly the sense you seem to mean. It attempted more or less to blend Newtonian physics to Christian belief, and removed the theophanic elements of the faith accordingly, seeing these all as prefigured in construction of the cosmic mechanism, that needed no continual attendance by its divine artificer.

That a man in those days quoted scripture says little about degree of belief in the religion you hold to, no more than might his frequent resort to Shakespear. It was a sizeable portion of the common literary heritage, and to quote apt words from it was a way to display education and mastery of that endowment. Both the men you mention, you will find, were frequently denounced as atheists and libertine free-thinkers by their political and religious foes in their own time.

[maha]

24. The Democratic Party used to support slavery.

Should we go back to our slave-owning heritage, too?

[The Magistrate]

10. Delving A Little More Deeply Into Your Effort, Mr. Lord

Your disparragement of the thought of old China cannot be allowed to pass unaddressed. Even a brief examination of Confucius or Lao Tzu would have made clear to you neither is the least interested in "finding god", whether within or without. Confucius is recorded to have refrained from comment on the matter, and about the closest you will find is an occassion where a student asks about the proper way to serve dieties, and the Master replied: "You do not know how to serve men. What can you know of serving gods?"

To say that the thought of old China originated from wise men is hardly a disparragement, but rather a great compliment, and points to the strength and endurance of that thought. Their systemic view arose from the reason and intuition of careful and humane men seeking to make the first human society numbering many millions work, and places the greatest value ultimately on the well-being of the common people, as it is their prosperous and happy condition that is viewed as both the ultimate goal of good government, and the uncontestable proof that good government exists. The aim of their thought was to understand and to guide the relations of humans to one another, and to the larger world around them, in the belief that were these in proper order, the best state achievable would be enjoyed. The concept of a diety acting either in wrath or gratification, punishing or rewarding, never arose in their minds, and there is, indeed, no reason it should do so in examination of the world around us. The concept of Heaven bears no real relation to the concept of diety, though the superficial tend to conflate them without close examination. Heaven is in no sense a being, but the whole of the universe and how it operates: even where it is said, for example, a ruler does not enjoy the favor of Heaven, the meaning is that he is acting in a way contrary to the way things work best, and the failure of this to bear good fruit is not the result of moral judgement, or divine punishment, but simply what is to be expected when trying to operate any mechanism in a way it is not designed to work.

Perhaps the most important consideration, and greatest virtue of this view, is that these men thought their thoughts consciously, and took responsibility for them in their expression. The tradition you value, and view as "from god" is based, in the final analysis, on the utterances of persons who heard voices in their heads, and responded to these promptings as though they were wholly foreign from, and unconnected to, their own minds. This is not true, of course: in all such cases the "voices" are promptings of the mind that hears them, and those persons who cannot perceive this connection are properly referred to as psychotic and delusional. They suffer invariably from some profound injury, and there is little of sound thought or real worth to be expected from such a source.

[Landlord]

15. Jen and government

Confucius live in a time of governmental turmoil and moral decline. Sounds familier. That Confucius was a philosophical genius is true. Where he, in my opinion, differs with Christianity is that Confucius believed that the way to better government was via a cultured civil-servant elite. These elites would lead government to a better way of benefitting the public. It is the ideas and actions of this elite that would benefit government and the people. History is full of examples of this failure by secular means by many diverse examples. Of a more recent history we have the Nazis, Facists, Imperial Japan, Socialism, Communism, and Pol Pot. Humanity cannot save itself, only when it had the courage to humble itself and accept the gift of salvation via Jesus is this possible. Christianity is growing in China, if fact, throughout all of Asia, Christianity is experiencing a large growth. If such human seclurism was not afraid of such growth there would not be such a widespread abuse of Christians. Christianity is not a straight-jacket, it allows oneself to know what is right and wrong. This freedom enables each of us to use our own God-given gifts and abilities to the benefit of mankind. No self-centered philosophy can compare, no matter how thoughtfull or benevolent it appears. Unless the leadership of the Demorcratic Party relizes this it will always be a minority party.

[klyon]

18. "No self-centered philosophy ..."

"No self-centered philosophy can compare, no matter how thoughtfull or benevolent it appears."

Now I'm beginning to laugh. Are you joking?

KL

[Landlord]

21. travel

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

[The Magistrate]

20. Honestly, Fellow

Why not have done with it, and admit representative democracy is just one more failed secular attempt at improving the lot of humankind?

No serious discussion can be had with someone who conflates Confucian thought with Hitler and Pol Pot.

Hostility towards Christians derives not from any fear of the possibilities their doctrine offers, dear, but on your own showing here, it is rather the rudeness, conceit, and ignorance of the prosetylizer invites the stick across its snout.

[Landlord]

22. 20/20

W. Churchill:"Democracy is the worst form of government there is, but it is the best we have." Has I have stated earlier, if you do not believe in God none of this will make sense to you. Sometimes we in the Democratic Party believe that if the other side favors an idea it must automatically be wrong. This is not true. God did not leave the Democrats, the Democrats left God. Christianity allows a much more diverse, progressive philosophy than is capable by any secular author no matter how brilliant he may be. The growth of Christianity, by people of all colors and geographic locale, of all ages, especially at the grass roots level of the world bears this out. The most free and satisfied people in the world do not follow secular philosophies, they follow God via the Bible. Christianity has given root to every social justice we now have. No matter how many steps we have taken back for every one forward, Christianity gives us the clarity of vision we need to go forward. "We shall overcome" was not first quoted by Dr. M.L. King, but by an old Black church song; "We shall overcome, we shall overcome, we shall overcome someday! Oh deep in my heart I do believe we shall overcome some day! The Lord will see us through." The Democratic Party is loosing faith, and losing elections.

[klyon]

17. get a grip

you can not be serious?

"Buddah, Confucius, and Lau Tzo(Taoism) all originate from men. Wise men to be sure, however they basically stress an "if you try hard enough you will find god" within concept. A study, even briefly of the works, actions and results of these eastern "religions", can prove that they are not quite the way to go to enlightenment."

This shows a complete and total lack of any understanding of "enlightenment"

but thanks for stopping by, have a nice life...

KL

[maha]

25. I studied Buddhism with Buddhists

"Read the works of Ph.D's Deivanayagam and Jothimani on two main forms of Hinduism; Vishnu and Shiva. Buddah, Confucius, and Lau Tzo(Taoism) all originate from men. Wise men to be sure, however they basically stress an "if you try hard enough you will find god" within concept. A study, even briefly of the works, actions and results of these eastern "religions", can prove that they are not quite the way to go to enlightenment."

I don't know who Deivanayagam and Jothimani are, but I know enough about Hindu to understand that "Vishnu and Shiva" do not represent "two forms of Hinduism."

The Buddha (note spelling) was indeed a man. Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, as is Taoism. In Buddhism there is no God as Christians understand the word "God." Enlightenment is not about finding God.

As you clearly have no clue what "Enlightenment" is, excuse me if I dismiss your opinion that eastern religions "are not quite the way to go."

[tibbiit]

7. welllll ahhh

How could the same God have two completely different, and at the same time contradictory, set of rules (Bible, the Koran, etc) for allowing individuals into heaven?

Maybe "god" didnt have anything to do with "writing" any of those books?

You only believe "he" did because you were raised to believe that way. There is no proof at all, only your and other "believers" "FAITH" which is zero PROOF.

If you were raised in a jewish or muslim household your belief and proofs would be there too just the same as for you now... and if you are a faithful believer as a christian, you would be the same as a muslim or jew, hindu or satanist.

Imo, if there was a Hell, then this world of dualism is it.
The god you worship is the Trickster who just changes masks for his "believers".

merry Christmas lol.
tib

[Vitruvius]

4. And the Nazi soldiers and concentration camp guards had "Gott Mit Uns"

(God's with us) on their tunic buttons.

[Landlord]

6. Fact

Actually Vitruvius, Nazi soldiers-usually the SS & Sa-and the German army-the Wehrmacht-where actually two different organizations. The SS was basically composed of Hitler lovers, the Wehrmacht was not. The Wehrmacht had "God with us" on thier belt buckles(very picky I admit.)
The Wehrmacht had chaplains in their ranks, the SS did not. Also, the attempted assinnation of Hitler in 1944 was carried out by a devout Roman Cathlic colonel.

[Martin Eden]

16. My agnostic 2 cents

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God.

You can point out all the differences between the religions, but the central faith of each is predicated on the belief in a supreme being who created the universe and in whom resides the true path on earth and to the hereafter.

This concept resonates in the human psyche and in the human heart. Race doesn't matter, nor does place of birth or cultural upbringing. If you are a human being and believe in God, you are responding to the same chords being struck in churches, mosques, and synagogues.

If God truly exists -- who created us in his image and touches our hearts -- then there is only one, and it is the same one for all who truly believe.

Just as America is founded upon the freedom to pursue happiness each in our own way, this freedom must be accorded the peoples of the earth in their spiritual life and path to God.

When our families and our homes are threatened, when our nation goes to war, it is natural for faith in God to be a source of courage and comfort. It is also an age-old tactic of those who thrust nations into war to rely upon that faith -- and the differences between us and them -- to galvanize the people in righteous defense of God and country.

And the peoples of the earth -- all children of and worshiping the same God -- murder each other in multitudes and in his name.

Whose side is he on?

In the humble opinion of this agnostic, if there is a God, he is on the side of the peacemakers.

And to all those who would wage holy war -- be they Christian, Muslim, or Jew -- I submit that they are placing their faith not in God but in those who usurp that throne for their own worldly gain.

[klyon]

19. thanks

needed saying

KL

[ixion]

23. here here, Martin Eden

well said.

[patdem]

26. Here Here...God is Everything or God is Nothing

If God is Everything he made every human being in his likeness and all the God centered religions are correct. If God is Nothing then he does not exist and all religions are bogus. We must decide and in deciding we cannot delcare US or us Godlike, but ALL HUMANS as Godlike.

[Martin Eden]

27. or God is something we haven't conceived

Religions are human organizations, and as such are imperfect. The three major monotheistic religions have dogma that contradict each other so they can't all be correct, other than the central tenet of a supreme being who created man in his image.

In my opinion, man created God in man's image. This is not to say that a supreme being does or doesn't exist. My point is that human beings have neither the perception nor the intellect to discern ultimate reality, and that their religions are shaped by these limitations and by the natural tendency to relate everything in human terms.

Religions may have been divinely inspired -- by God's intervention in human affairs. Beyond that, religion is characterized by subjective interpretation, and by the considerations of wealth and power that have always driven worldly affairs. Too often, religion becomes the channel through which prejudice and intolerance is unleashed on other human beings.

Personally I have a sense of spirituality, but I've never subscribed to any particular religion because of the reasons stated above. I'm unwilling to suspend my own judgement and put my faith in any worldly organization that has historically exploited such faith.

Whatever conscious intelligence may be responsible for the matter, energy, and life of the universe, I am skeptical that any human religion has it pegged. And I am convinced that this universal intelligence would not take sides in any of our petty squabbles.

[maha]

28. All Dogmas Are Wrong

"Whatever conscious intelligence may be responsible for the matter, energy, and life of the universe, I am skeptical that any human religion has it pegged."

There are spiritual traditions that discourage belief in dogmas, since no dogma can contain the Absolute; Zen and Dzogchen Tibetan Buddhism, for example. Instead of teaching doctrine, these sects provide a disciplined path of practice by which an individual may realize the Absolute for himself.

Check out the Precepts of Engaged Buddhism, which begin:

1
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

2
Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/resources/14precepts.html

"And I am convinced that this universal intelligence would not take sides in any of our petty squabbles."

Taoists agree with you.

HEAVEN-and-Earth is not sentimental;
It treats all things as straw-dogs.
The Sage is not sentimental;
He treats all his people as straw-dogs.

Between Heaven and Earth,
There seems to be a Bellows:
It is empty, and yet it is inexhaustible;
The more it works, the more comes out of it.
No amount of words can fathom it:
Better look for it within you.

Tao Teh Ching, verse 5

http://www.cathoderaymission.freeserve.co.uk/tao/tao5.html

[ixion]

29. dogmas, and/or institutionalized religion in general

once any religious sect becomes institutionalized, the focus ceases to be about the given deity. The focus instead becomes the survival of the administrative arm of the sect, just as in business, education, politics and any other area where institutions tend to occur.
This was true of the very first institution that was the separation of State and Agriculture in early human civilization, and remains true of all institutions today.

One thing is for sure: if you want to destroy a belief system, just institutionalize it.