Safire Suggests Dean has created a third party

[ourwinter]

Okay - before you read the article we know the following:

1. Safire is known for his libertarian/conservative views.
2. He has never written an article in support of the Democratic party, and this fact should always be acknowledged.
3. Three words: Grain of Salt
---

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/24/opinion/24SAFI.html

Personally, I believe Clark/Dean is a dream ticket and wish they'd stop nit picking at what happened with this VP debaccle. Many of the posts I've read by Dean supporters have acknowledged that they wouldn't mind Clark being given the VP, many Clark supporters would love to see Dean as the VP. I guess that's what makes the difference between a Clark supporter and a Dean supporter. We should support our own candidate!
<b>We should! This is a good thing!
The Dean Movement is great!
The Clark movement is great
(insert rah rah cheerleader noise here)</b>

The article though suggests something very serious (and I may just donate to be allowed to post a poll - but beat me to it please)

Would the Dean base support his candidacy as a third party?

[virtualobserver]

1. I think that it is better to recreate the Democratic party....

A third party run would elect Bush.

[ourwinter]

6. Perhaps...

on the other hand a third party may get everyone behind
this new movement...

[liberalmike27]

40. For Those that Don't Know This

The Green Party is the old Democratic Party, no death penalty, legalize pot, decriminalize other drugs treating them as a medical problem, and a number of other positions supporting labor.

Dean is trying to bring the Democratic Party back to where it used to be, where the Greens are, and for this reason Dean is probably the only candidate that has a good chance of winning, who will not lose huge votes to the Greens and other candidates. Of course the tremendous infrastructure he has, as well as the money advantage doesn't hurt.

The media, Democrats, and Republicans have been constantly attacking Dean, and first they said he couldn't win the primary. When he threatened a continuing slew of articles and commentary talked about, and are still talking about how he can't win the general election. I suspect these folks will have their mouths hanging open after election night in disbelief, as Iraq worsens or stays the same, and the job situation doesn't improve.

[ourwinter]

43. Out of curiousity

When did the democratic party support the legalization of maryjane?

Does dean support the legalization of MJ?

Is his position straight forward decriminlizing drugs?

All very sincere questions, and would you give me a source to this?

[BlueEyedSon]

2. My 3 words

Lying Sacko' Spit

[ourwinter]

7. here here!

[eileen from OH]

3. No, no, a thousand times no

I'm a Dean supporter and not only would I be extremely disappointed in any kind of a third party bid by him, but would work my ass of for whoever the Dem candidate is, even those I don't care for right now.

That being said, Safire is a jerk, and it ain't gonna happen.

eileen from OH

[ourwinter]

9. So at the end of the day

you're a democrat, not a Dean supporter?

[eileen from OH]

14. Right now I'm both

since Dean is running for the Dem nom.

If he were to lose and split from the party to try a third party run, I'd stay with the Dems. No way in HELL would a third party have a chance in hell this time of taking out Bush, would hand him the Presidency on a platter, and I wouldn't be a part of that.

It's not that I support Dean and hate/dislike all the rest. Would cheerfully support whoever wins the nom. (Well in the case of Lieberman, make that considerably-less-than-cheerfully.)

I'm thinking of getting a tasteful "ABB" tattooed on my ass.

eileen from OH

[ourwinter]

16. But what if by say

Splitting the party we can gain an entire movement of voter mobilization and a party that reflects the true goals of an entire generation of people that feel but to the outside?

Sacrafice this year for 50 years to come of progressive pol

-And- and who says the coalition of a third party and a democrats can't join at the end of the day? Is there a way for this can happen... I'm no election expert someone clarify this issue for me.

[maha]

19. Not on this planet.

> Sacrafice this year for 50 years to come of progressive pol

If Bush gets four more years we'd be sacrificing America itself. The Right Wing will continue to redistrict and recall and will so consolidate its power we may end up with a ONE party system. Never mind THREE parties.

> And- and who says the coalition of a third party and a democrats can't join at the end of the day? Is there a way for this can happen... I'm no election expert someone clarify this issue for me.

Third parties can nominate and work for the same guy the Dems nominate, but I don't think that's what you have in mind.

[ourwinter]

22. Actually...

I don't have anything in mind - I'm just trying to think outside of the box on this... I think Dean's movement is strong enough to actually muster a "new thinking" a "new movement" to actually co-opt the democratic party.

Just trying to think far ahead of America's future here.

Personally I think this was seen on the same level in the past with the Republican party splitting for Daddy Bush, then gathering the outside right wingers who previously had supported Buchannan, and the likes of third party supporters who voted for Perot. The result is what we have now, a vicious machine.

[maha]

28. The pendulum swings

> Just trying to think far ahead of America's future here.

The DLC does not own the Democratic Party. I believe the DLC is only about a decade old, in fact.

I've seen both parties go through several identity shifts in my own little life -- the GOP today would be unrecognizable to the GOP of Eisenhower's time, for example. A century ago Republicans were the progressives and Dems the conservatives.

The Clintons and the DLC represented a swing to the right that had already begun before they became prominent. Now, I think, the Dems are ready to swing back to the left. I believe this will happen naturally, without a major power struggle and without the Dem party splitting up and reforming.

The question is, if the Dems swing left, will the rest of the country follow? It may be that enough people are enough fed up that they will.

[ourwinter]

30. Quite insightful

Just trying to think ahead as well, I do wonder whether the rest of America will follow. We are by no means a reactionary public, we tend to take things in strides, we move slowly and take hints to processing politics as our government does.

One of my Favorite book quotes:

"And this I believe: that the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in all the world. And this I would fight for: the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual."

John Steinbeck, East of Eden

[eileen from OH]

20. Sorry. . .

ANOTHER third party run keeps the rightwing in power and does nothing to empower the left. Liberals, more than Dems as a whole, have the rep for disorganization and this kind of thing would only re-inforce it. Third parties (at least in this country) need to work from the states up, IMO. I WOULD vote third party in any local or state election, but not in national until they prove themselves by winning the smaller races.

I see no point in a coalition at the end of the day. By then both of the leftwards parties would be so rancorous towards each other that many on both sides would feel used and disgusted.

Plus, I oughtta say that I'm not particularly far-left and one of the big reasons I support Dean is that he truly is a moderate.

If all that makes sense.

eileen from OH

[ourwinter]

23. This is another flaw

At the end of the Dean is not quite so far left as he is portrayed, and the message is that he would survive as "third party" when really he's not out there -- this of course is the construction of Dean rather than the actual Dean.

The more and more I talk about Dean, the more I believe Trippi is a genius.

[markus]

18. Inappropriately divisive

Those are not two seperate categories.

[ourwinter]

25. Expand on this thought

I'm interested in what you mean behind this comment?

Please continue...

[liberalnurse]

4. Sounds like GOP ghost writers

helped him with this one. Try and spook folks, uses trigger words like "third party" .....a Nader tense thought in a subliminal way....

He can go dig out his constipated rectal vault.

[cosmicdot]

10. nod in agreement

Safire and Rove must have a dedicated fax line

[ourwinter]

11. Perhaps, but... I don't

think Safire needs ghost writers to make allege something
like this... plus, media and policital pundits, elected officals
are all grouped into one ball these days...

[liberalnurse]

17. Essentially, the intended message was

preconceived by the right.......

[bemildred]

5. Another attempt to put Dean outside the mainstream. nt

[ourwinter]

12. VERY

Good point

[ourwinter]

27. What is the best way

To confront this criticism of Dean as being "the outsider"?

Do you have any suggestions or insights you'd like to share?

I believe the brand identity is working, but I worry about
the longer term effects. Which is why I have trouble supporting
Dean.

Please share what's on your mind.

[bemildred]

32. I would ignore it,

and keep doing what he is doing,
which is working very well,
which is why they are trying to change it.

[ourwinter]

34. Well what if you can't?

and...Do you believe there are any other ways to address it?

I can think that it would make a decent stump speech
Dean heckling this saying

"They call me far left, they call me an outsider - they
can call me whatever they want... but I'm for the American people"

That would be something that would be something to see, something, awe inspiring.

[bemildred]

37. Certainly there are other things you can do, but

they are all inferior to just ignoring it IMHO.
Any positive response gives it credence. If you
successfully ignore it, it will go away, and they will
try something else, most likely inferior to this.
It is already a desperate ploy, there is no need to
cooperate with it.

[ourwinter]

38. huh?

Do you really think so? This sounds a bit politically
odd to me... like saying that ignoring being
sick is the "right" thing to do that there is no way
to treat the issue. The Bush media is not
likely to allow this to fall off the radar
screen, why should we assume so?

[bemildred]

39. You asked my opinion, and you have it.

Mr. Dean is not sick, nor is his campaign.
Why should he give these bozos the initiative when he has it?

[ourwinter]

41. Okay

Well I don't think he is "sick", I do believe
something should be done. Nothing seems
to work fine for Bush, perhaps Dean will be
luck.

You alluded to nothing is there to
be fixed - I was just trying to ask
you if there that was really true.

I'm always glad to get someone elses
opinion. Thank you.

[bemildred]

44. It is my view that this is an attempt to fabricate

something wrong with Dean, or his campaign, or something.
He's doing great, why should he suddenly start listening to
his enemies and trying to parry their blather? If there was
some real charge here, he could refute it, like the fuss over
his brother, but there is nothing here, he is not starting a
third party, any response will merely make it more credible.
Genuine tactical and strategic advantage does not lie in
attempting to parry every feint from the enemy, but in countering
the ones that matter.

[cosmicdot]

8. Caveat Safire Emptor -- why should he worry about the Dem nomination?

he's not ... he's being a smart-a**, sarcastic, a trouble-maker ... an attempt to pre-empt human events with disinformation and thought-policing ...

That split of opposition would be a bonanza for Bush. In a two-man race, the odds are that he would beat Dean comfortably, but in a three-party race, Bush would surely waltz in with the greatest of ease.

Here's my problem: Such a lopsided, hubris-inducing result would be bad for Bush, bad for the G.O.P., bad for the country. Landslides lead to tyrannous majorities and big trouble.


If Howard Dean does receive the nomination ... Mr. Spitfire won't be worrying about Howard winning then ...

as you said: with a grain of salt

[ourwinter]

13. I agree

The logic behind an easier waltz into office for Bush seems
a little bit obtuse.

In other countries I've lived I've seen three party, even four party systems work. What they do is run as a third party, create voter mobilization and fresh ideas, then -- as when it comes down to the meat of the election the coalese behind one man/woman.

This of course, takes into a different system of government where the elected officials are more something like "concessions" for the party that throws its support behind a particular candidate.

... perhaps, say by working with Kuccinich who I also believe is a dream candidate. Just throwing it out there... tell me what you think

[cosmicdot]

21. well, if these countries have parliamentary systems

3rd parties might have a better chance to be represented simply with votes, not by 'winning'... some seats are proportioned ...

our set up, seems to shut out in the governing make-up

ergo, 2 parties ... however ...

... all Democratic candidates, in worse case, can hope to take delegates to the convention to hammer out and influence the Party's platform ... using those delegates, as necessary, in floor vote campaigning ... politicking ... as "bloc" votes ... i.e., in choosing a VP; a key floor vote ... there is a source of influence at that point in our system -- a chance to be represented ... not through 'winning' winning, but through having primary votes ...

I, personally, believe Dennis Kucinich best represents American,
(D)emocratic and (d)emocratic ideals for recapturing, restructuring, reviving, reforming our infrastructure, and to move us forward, as a people and society ... not right vs. left (that rhetoric is so tired and needs to be shot down whenever freeped upon us ... "leftist" talk by Delay, OxyRush, et al) ... but, more of, right-ist vs. wrong-ist ... common sense and best practices for the common good and all that jazz .... seeking the common denominators over things which divide us, where we can still debate and compromise ... basically, get us back on track ... which is good incentive and offers inspiration to generations perhaps jaded by a strictly corporate agenda ... using the tools and techniques of problem solving and conflict resolution to manage our differences and offer guidance ...

... the current system with pundits yelling at each other over what is right and wrong, left or right, patriotic or not, sold-out Senators and Congress members ... won't get us anywhere ... we need a leader who recognizes what needs to be done, and knows how to navigate over the din, stagnation and gridlock ...

I think Dennis offers us that ... and, our best hope in keeping the promise of our Fore-Parents ...

[ourwinter]

24. Truly insightful comments

This has been a very very good conversation no attacks, no bashing... and I'm actually learning a great deal about two outstanding candidates that represent the best that America has to offer.

So do you believe that there would be a way to create a third party and then position itself in the Convetion to gather support behind one person?

[xchrom]

15. while there's room for multiple parties in the u.s.

the greatest threat to the future of the u.s. are multi-national corporations -- and right now the dem party offers the nearest thing to a solution and someone like dean a luther with a reformation paper in hand.
attacking the multi-nationals and reforming the static and stagnant dem party are both necessary at the same time. and it can be done.
however -- safire is an unhinged corporatist pig -- nothing he says is based on reality.

[ourwinter]

26. Has this been

A fundamental part of the Dean campaign to address
TNCs? Rope them in... I guess I may have been living
on Mars but his attacks against big TNCs hasn't echoed
through as his message.

I personally am interested, please elaborate.

[ourwinter]

29. Final thoughts

Since there has been a lag and I really need to get some work done before I hit the road (must drive 6 hours, ouch!)

I just wanted to thank all of you for your insightful comments and look forward to catching up with all of you after Christmas.

Take care, and more soon from,

ourwinter

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. This bodes well for Dean. If Safire doesn't like Dean it can

only be because Safire knows that without a "Centrist" democrat, Republicans lose their control over the democratic party. (And by the way, I take issue with Lieberman being called a Centrist. He is a conservative Democrat, which makes him right of Centrist.)

[ourwinter]

33. A good point

I don't know if Safire is writing love letters to Dean
or whether he is interested in sending him stuff from
dogdoo.com, I think the greater issue is his rendering
a third party movement.

Perhaps, though we are giving Safire too much credit.

I take it though, you don't find any water in this
assesment?

And clarify what are you taking issue with Leiberman
is this something like a chicken or the egg argument?
Serious question (I always make serious questions)

[windansea]

35. Safire got this from Kaus, & TNR

scroll down
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093002/

http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=1088

[ourwinter]

36. hmmm

Very interesting...

any thoughts, what's your opinion?

[windansea]

42. no idea

maybe they are trying to sell papers and bloghits...being clever...full of shit...have an agenda...who knows??

[Memekiller]

45. Safire's conspiracy theories...

This is the guy who has been harping on the Clark as running horse of Hillary nonsense for weeks, and has now floated the theory that Hillary plans to get Dean the nomination so Bush will win and she can run in '04. Usually, the only facts to back up his theories are a need to push a particular rhetorical line. And the GOP right now very much would like the third party rumor to fly.

I, for one, respect Dean quite a bit, and thank him for reminding the party that it has a pulse and doesn't need to sit there and take it. I'm a Clark supporter, but I'd rally behind him if he were the nominee. But if it's true that he's considering a third party run if he loses, then I won't support the man if he becomes the nominee. I'll have lost all respect for him.

[The Stranger]

46. I had picked a Dean-Clark ticket months ago.

The fact that Bill Safire -- a truly fucking disgusting excuse for what claims to be human -- is worried makes me grin from ear to ear.

[ourwinter]

47. Wanna cookie?