"It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

[SHRED]

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2 excellent articles by Thom Hartmann.

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Today's Immigration Battle
Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)
by Thom Hartmann


The corporatist Republicans ("amnesty!") are fighting with the racist Republicans ("fence!"), and it provides an opportunity for progressives to step forward with a clear solution to the immigration problem facing America.

Both the corporatists and the racists are fond of the mantra, "There are some jobs Americans won't do." It's a lie.

Americans will do virtually any job if they're paid a decent wage. This isn't about immigration - it's about economics. Industry and agriculture won't collapse without illegal labor, but the middle class is being crushed by it.

The reason why thirty years ago United Farm Workers' Union (UFW) founder César Chávez fought against illegal immigration, and the UFW turned in illegals during his tenure as president, was because Chávez, like progressives since the 1870s, understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

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Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"
by Thom Hartmann


Every time the media - or a Democrat - uses the phrase "Illegal Immigration" they are promoting one of Karl Rove's most potent Republican Party frames.

The reality is that we don't have an "Illegal Immigration" problem in America. We have an "Illegal Employer" problem.

Yet it's almost never mentioned in the mainstream media, because to point it out could slightly reduce the profits and CEO salaries of many of America's largest multi-state and multinational corporations - who both own the media and contribute heavily to conservative politicians. Republicans would prefer that the "criminals" covered in the press are working people, and that corporate and CEO criminals not get discussed.

As the Busby/Bilray contest showed, "illegal immigration" is a red-hot issue for American voters. The Democrat Busby was way ahead until she committed a faux pas before a group of Latinos, leading to (false) media reports (particularly on right-wing talk radio) that she was encouraging illegal immigrants to vote for her in the upcoming election. Her Republican opponent seized on this and hammered the district with ads for the last few days of the campaign (while voting machines curiously went home at night with some of the poll workers), and now a Republican lobbyist has taken the seat of a Republican congressman convicted of illegal deals with Republican lobbyists.


More:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm


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[pstans]

1. Hartmann is exactly right

Our illegal employer problem won't be solved unless the companies that hire illegal immigrants face consequences. More than 1,200 illegal immigrants were arrested in the immigration raids that took place in December. The company that employed them was not charged with anything yet.

[Spiffarino]

15. K&R. - Please Consider Recommending for Greatest!

This deserves a lot of attention. It is central to the immigration debate and IMHO should be part of the Democratic platform.

:kick:

[IndyOp]

2. I've knocked several Republicans over by echoing the "illegal employer" problem

argument to them. Both are old-fashioned R's who believe that corporations *should* operate within reasonable constraints and were amazed that I wasn't saying what they expect from a Liberal - all immigrants should immediately be made full citizens (...so they can vote Democratic). :eyes:

[yurbud]

9. that's also a good test of whether they are dyed in the wool racists or just listen to too much talk

radio.

The racists will not entertain anything except building a fence and letting their lynch mob sit on top and plink anyone trying to sneak through.

[Triana]

3. No one wants to talk about the Illegal Employer problem...

...because that would threaten the plutocracy ie:

Yet it's almost never mentioned in the mainstream media, because to point it out could slightly reduce the profits and CEO salaries of many of America's largest multi-state and multinational corporations - who both own the media and contribute heavily to conservative politicians. Republicans would prefer that the "criminals" covered in the press are working people, and that corporate and CEO criminals not get discussed.

Hartmann is spot on about it.

[Demeter]

4. The Employer is GOD --Not just King, Like Dumbya.

So of course, with the best government corporate money can buy, we aren't going to see much progress on this issue.

[wakeme2008]

5. It is simple to do away with Companies using illegals .. $5,000 fine per

illegal, half the fine to the local police dept that picked up the illegals. :)

So Walmart has 10 illegals cleaning their store at night, no matter WHO hired the illegals, Walmart gets a $50,000 fine and $25,000 goes to the police dept. that "found" the illegals.

The good part is this could be "catch and release". Take fingerprints and photos for the "fine" and release the illegals. Maybe Wallymart will have them back the next night and you could catch them again.

[Triana]

6. I like that plan! (n/t)

[Igel]

8. It matters who hires them.

Employers have to check documents and aren't allowed to investigate documents submitted by "questionable" applicants unless they also investigate everybody else's: Just because you think somebody is here illegally isn't enough--it counts as discrimination. It's one reason why routine background checks on all applicants for some companies is so intense.

I've checked documents for filing away I-9s for my employee. It's not a hassle; the person says they're here legally and provides appropriate documents, you're done. You're legally off the hook--I was relieved when I read the limits of my, and my employer's, liability. The place you have your employees do work ... simply not involved, they never see the documents and cannot be held responsible for the employees' status any more than a restaurant customer giving money to a cashier here illegally is responsible.

I had an employer--a very liberal dem, by the way--that employed an illegal immigrant, a Mexicana. *She* should have been fined; the documents the employee submitted changed from time to time (she was called "Ana", but her ID never had that name)--she admitted she was here illegally. If the IRS went to that business owner, she'd have no excuse--the paper trail screamed "illegal". She left about the time I did, saying she got a much better paying job in San Francisco.

I tutored ESL for a while to university employees where my wife works. All Latinos. They didn't say they were here illegally; some have only been here a few years. They didn't even have "survival English", and at least a couple of them were fairly illiterate in Spanish. They must have had documents saying who they were and that they recently immigrated *legally* in order to be hired, even if the documents were forgeries. Their documents can't be checked any further. How's the university to know if they're here illegally? The IRS and Social Security don't cross reference to say that their IDs are also used by people in New York and Seattle, and if the agencies knew they couldn't say. We've made it difficult, and in some cases impossible, for employers that want to be ethical and not hire illegal immigrants to know if their employees are here illegally. If the illegal immigrants behave themselves--don't change documents, don't confess--they have little to fear, apart from ICE raids and the cries of discrimination that follow. It's a reasonable conclusion to say that the US Congress has pretty much forced some employers to be ignorant. And now we demand punishment for acts committed in the ignorance we've created.

This is why the laws--justly--require that the employer be shown to have known that the employees were illegal immigrants. Instead of presupposing guilt, it presupposes innocence. The upshot of this progressive attitude, however, is that it's possible for people to game the system--they know they've hired illegal immigrants, but the document trail doesn't reveal it and the employer's not going to admit it to the government. We could reverse it--and push "if you hire a foreigner, assume s/he's illegal", but then you'd have massive discrimination--most illegal immigrants have accents, so just don't hire a person with a foreign accent (unless the visa comes directly from the government).

The *system* has to be changed to allow employers to be truly responsible and then to hold them responsible. IDs have to be harder to forge, and uniform so that forgeries can be detected by non-expert I-9 compliance folk. The SSA has to either let employers know that a number is officially unused or in use elsewhere, or inform ICE so they can investigate.

[wakeme2008]

10. I do I-9 all the time,, does not matter

If Wallymart has illegals on their site, they pay the fine. Sure they can go after the company that they contracted with to TRY to get their money back. But once this is law, they would not nod and winking at Sammy's Cheap Cleaning Service.

[liberalla]

7. I love when Thom discusses the Illegal Employer issue...

He makes more sense than anyone else. His voice should be heard by more people!

p.s. thanks for these links!

[CrispyQ]

11. This morning I was in the kitchen & my husband had CNN on &

I wondered why Thom Hartmann is never on any of these shows. To me he seems extremely reasonable & someone who has the ability to reach both sides.

[Spiffarino]

14. He's too dangerous.

Corporate media is scared to death of people like Thom who are reasonable and intelligent. Unlike the pundits, Thom doesn't have to fight right wingers to beat them. He lets them have their say and takes their arguments apart like a cheap watch. GE, Viacom and Time-Warner would be toast.

[CrispyQ]

16. I beleive you are right.

My Rush-loving rw mother likes Thom. :wow:

We certainly can't have someone on the air who might unite We the People! ;)

[grannylib]

12. Exactly right. If illegal immigrants are coming here for jobs, it's because

companies are GIVING them jobs ILLEGALLY. DUH.
Dry up the jobs and you dry up the flow of illegal immigrants, for the most part. But of course, the rePiglicans really don't want to do that, now, do they??

Corrupt bunch of greedy bastards.

[Spiffarino]

13. Well said and spot on!

If you haven't found him already, get over to AAR and listen to The Thom Hartmann Program. He is the strongest progressive voice in media today.

Free archives of his shows can be found at http://whiterosesociety.org/

Scroll down to the "Table of Contents" to get your aural fix.

[qwlauren35]

17. Numbers add more Umph.

I think this needs more data to be effective. I think if we show how much employers make from illegal immigrants, it will drive the point home. Unfortunately, the data may be difficult to collect; I assume that they hide or launder assets and profits. A job for the IRS "Untouchables", if ever there was one.

[liberalla]

18. Very good suggestion and worth checking on...

Just a heads up - Thom Hartmann will be discussing this issue again tomorrow (Tuesday 4/24)with Don Goldwater (R) who agrees with him. I look forward to that.

[liberalla]

19. Thom Hartmann is going to discuss this again on Tuesday

4/24. I just finished listening to his Monday rerun show. As he closed he announced that Republican Don Goldwater AGREES with him on the Illegal Employer problem and will be on his show tomorrow to discuss it. I'm looking forward to it!

FYI