Destroying the meaning of citizenship

[BuckeFushe]

I've had a day now to digest the impact of Bush's proposal to open our borders to Mexican workers and give blanket amnesty to millions of illegal aliens already here. My first concern is, why hasn't anyone recognized the failed government of Vicente Fox? Why hasn't attention been paid to how he has failed to improve economic conditions and basic human services in Mexico? His government has become an enabler of illegal immigration. If conditions in Mexico, which continues to show negative economic growth month after month, were even slightly improved, Mexican citizens could hope for a future there and would not rush to find work and basic social services so badly lacking in Mexico.

My second concern is the continued exporting of our capital, technology, and highly skilled technology jobs by exploiting L1 and H1B visa programs. MILLIONS of highly skilled AMERICAN workers have lost their jobs to cheap labor immigrating here on L1 and H1B visas, and even though the companies hiring them are paying them up to 75% LESS than the Americans before them, the money they earn is LEAVING the country and not being plowed back into OUR economy. What is going to happen to the skilled work force when they are forced to work at MacJobs or Wal-Mart because American companies choose to use immigrants with no ties or loyalty to the United States? Will their children want to follow in their footsteps and spend years in college training for jobs that won't be there? Will they soon become members of the working poor rather than members of the middle class, the largest 'class' in this country, which also spends the most, votes the most, and to this point has been able to pay for the services necessary to provide for their families. How soon before they become members of the class depending on the government for their health needs, housing needs, and supplemental food needs?

My third concern is the companies who are slowly strangling the middle class and America. These are some of the largest members of the NY Stock Exchange and NASDAQ. These are also the same companies who are exporting our manufacturing and service jobs to cheap labor markets, while failing to consider that their LARGEST consumer base for their products lies here in the United States. All you have to do is read the names of the members of these exchanges and you have discovered the crux of the problem. America used to be the manufacturing powerhouse of the world. Now, less than 20% of our workforce is involved in manufacturing, mostly in automotive, aircraft, and the military industries (including cars, trucks, farm equipment, military vehicles, weapons, military and commercial aircraft and parts for all of these). The rest of our manufacturing base is gone, spread throughout China, the Far East, and South America. We have become TOTALLY DEPENDENT on foreign interests not only for daily consumer goods, but goods for industry and small business. Even if you remove energy imports from the balance of trade, our deficits continue to grow monthly without any hope of ever being balanced. Since 1992 (source was OBM) we haven't had ONE SINGLE MONTH where we had a trade surplus, not one. If this continued reliance on foreign interests simply to obtain the cheapest price continues, there will be NO ONE to buy these goods, because when you are poverty stricken, the low price on a microwave means nothing if you have no food to put in it.

My fourth concern is giving blanket amnesty to the TENS OF MILLIONS of illegal aliens here now. Once you grant them legal status, the burden on our social services will grow exponentially. We can BARELY take care of our own in this country, and now we're going to add millions more who will benefit from health, education, and welfare services strained to the max? What happened to the rule of law? What happened to America first? What happened to the meaning of Citizenship? What happened to pride in America? Should we just open our borders to all so that the person willing to work for the least amount of money get the jobs? Do we really want to become a Third World nation after hundreds of years of struggling to be the best, most powerful, and economically strong nation in the world? I for one do not want that to happen. And the excuse that "they perform jobs Americans won't" is pure crap. The REASON they have employment is because those who employ them DON'T want to pay an AMERICAN a living wage, and don't want to be burdened with payroll tax, benefits, health insurance, and all the other responsibilities that come with running a business. If you want to discourage illegal immigration, FINE AND PROSECUTE employers who hire illegal workers. Then that business will have to rethink its business model and will be forced to hire Americans. Anyone who thinks it's OK to hire illegal aliens doesn't deserve the opportunities or wealth this country offers to those who work hard and make this country what it is.

My last concern is President Bush's plan as presented. One, who will monitor the new immigrants? I guarantee a new layer of government will HAVE to be created to watch those who come in. Two, what will prevent ANY employer in this country from laying off their workforce and then 'sponsoring' immigrants to come work on a 'temporary' basis for the lowest possible wage without benefits or protections? ANYONE who thinks that won't happen is still tripping on the acid they took in the sixties. And the fastest growth industry will be "JOB BROKERS" to find employers who will 'sponsor' immigrants to work for them. This is not a theory, this will happen. If we just enforced our immigration laws, this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

This should not be an issue of which group will vote for which party by pandering to them, this should be an issue of the survival of America as we know it. These problems I see are not Republican, Democratic, or Libertarian problems, these are AMERICAN problems, and if we don't address them soon, this won't be America anymore, it will be the United States of Cheap; cheap products, cheap labor, cheap prices, and cheap freedom.

[Capablanca]

1. Very Interesting Post

I have read your post and am very troubled with this new policy. Call me cynical, but it appears that this wrong headed policy was formulated by the re-election committe. My moderate and even tempered attitude towards this administration have grown less moderate and I am starting to get pissed.

Still, I appreciate your analysis.

[auburnblu]

2. Does either party want to enforce the law

I remember watching John Kerry a few months back on C-Span and he was mentioning how he wanted to make it safer for undocumenteds to cross the U.S. border. I think this new policy builds off of what Clinton did in 1996. Other than maybe Dennis K, I can't imagine any of the candidates opposing the idea of amnesty. I can see them not liking the details of Bush's plan though.

[fearnobush]

4. The Plan is a Karl Rovian Trap. A typical manipulation of lives.

The whole thing was specifically drafted to hurt the Dem's, not by drawing more Hispanic votes to the GOP, but by preventing the Dem's from attacking Bush on compassionate conservatism and being too far right winged. We should attack Bush on his failed compassionate conservative policy and argue that this new plan is only a ploy to use mostly Mexican and Haitian workers as pawns for big business profit, and ultimately there desire to drive down real wages of the working and middle classes. People, this is indeed class warfare. It's a war we must fight.

[bemildred]

8. Indeed. Divide and rule.

The proper response is to ignore it.
Let it hang there, and stick to your own message.

[Arlington]

3. this won't be America anymore...

"this won't be America anymore, it will be the United States of Cheap; cheap products, cheap labor, cheap prices, and cheap freedom..."

We are already there -- ever been to a Super Wal-Mart? It's the future of America. Drones fed, fueled, clothed, serviced and equipped as drones in one huge service barn -- they offer eyeglasses, insurance, banking and a nail polishing -- cheaply and efficiently. And half the customers already work for Wal-Mart.

Soon they will provide healthcare to the drones -- but only until the drones wear out or break. No point in throwing good money after bad.

[Leilani]

5. Excellent Post

Obviously this is an election year ploy to curry favor with Latinos.

But it's real goal is to reward Bush's business cronies even more, if that is possible.

American workers are getting it from every side; imported tech workers, exported manufacturing jobs, exported service jobs. A race to the bottom is in progress.

I fault both parties & organized labor. Repukes pander to business, Dems pander to minority groups, & unions have failed to help American workers.

Ever poll I have seen on this issue ranges from 70% - 90% against the idea of amnesty, guest workers, etc.

And before I get flamed for being anti-Hispanic, I am not. I am PRO American workers.

[BuckeFushe]

7. This is NOT an anti-anyone essay, this is a PRO America middle class

essay. These issues affect all Americans of every race, 1st or 50th generation. The corporate whores whom Bush panders to are in the process of disassembling over 200 years of economic freedom, and are trying to make us a class of worker bees, as was so aptly described previously. They are purposely forcing down the American living standard for the personal gain of a very small minority.

[fearnobush]

6. The Starving of the Beast.

That is the true goal of the evil Bush Empire. The Beast, known as Social Security and all other forms of our social welfare is there enemy. Once they are gone, they have total control. This so called immigration plan is their second step toward killing the Beast. Medicare was the first - shame on all who voted for it. Next, if elected or do I say - selected, Bush will tare apart Social Security in the same manner as Medicare. Dress it up, make it look pretty with lots of private investment illusions, pass the bill, enact it, then BAM, the markets crash and 50+ years of the trust fund are whipped out in a few hours and days.

[finecraft]

11. I totally agree

this is another nail put in our country's coffin by Grover Norquist. By the time the sheeple wake up and realize what has happened to this country, it will be too late.

[cajunrunner]

9. Something that may make you happy

Look, I am what you may call a "troll." I am a conservative who likes to read what you all have to say. Most of the time, I disagree with what ya'll post, but I do believe that it is still important to read other points of view and keep an open mind. My reading selection includes everything from Al Franken to Ann Coulter (both I have no use for, both just smear peoples' reputations w/ no real evidence).

I have to agree that this policy attempt by President Bush does "destroy the meaning of citizenship". While I have supported our president for the most part, I may sit home on election day if he passes this bill. I'm not against this policy b/c I'm racist, as a college athlete, you learn to appreciate all races, but I'm against it for national security reasons and because other immigrants have come here legally.

Unlike many conservatives, I'm not partisan. I'm not registered Rep. I'm more of an ideologue with an open mind, which is why I'm posting this. I don't care if this make ya'll confident for the election, b/c honestly, there could be a split on our part. Therefore, please don't delete this post, as I just enjoy reasonable conversation, and I actually agree with the subject line of this post.

[BuckeFushe]

10. welcome and thank you for noticing us

quote: Look, I am what you may call a "troll." I am a conservative who likes to read what you all have to say. Most of the time, I disagree with what ya'll post, but I do believe that it is still important to read other points of view and keep an open mind. My reading selection includes everything from Al Franken to Ann Coulter (both I have no use for, both just smear peoples' reputations w/ no real evidence).

I have to agree that this policy attempt by President Bush does "destroy the meaning of citizenship". While I have supported our president for the most part, I may sit home on election day if he passes this bill. I'm not against this policy b/c I'm racist, as a college athlete, you learn to appreciate all races, but I'm against it for national security reasons and because other immigrants have come here legally.

Unlike many conservatives, I'm not partisan. I'm not registered Rep. I'm more of an ideologue with an open mind, which is why I'm posting this. I don't care if this make ya'll confident for the election, b/c honestly, there could be a split on our part. Therefore, please don't delete this post, as I just enjoy reasonable conversation, and I actually agree with the subject line of this post.

Welcome. May you stay here be enjoyable and informative.

This issue transcends Parisian politics. The Right is beginning to stir over the inflated debt, the massive growth of government, and now this issue. True Conservative values have been ignored but the Bush administration, and in spite of their efforts to blame the Left for everything from spoiled milk to warts, we aren't in charge.

When the current population of adults realizes that their grandchildren will still be paying for the debt he has incurred, the world may actually shift on it's axis.

[cajunrunner]

12. Well....

I do hold beliefs VERY contrary to that of yours'. Actually, I spent the past semester writing the conservative column for my university newspaper, and the liberal columnist is a proud member of ya'lls organization. Look, the only Dem. I could vote for is Lieberman, whom ya'll all seem to hate. However, the point of my post is that President Bush, as good of a president as I think he's been so far, could risk the chance of me sitting home or voting Libertarian for the election, and like I've stated, I'm not partisan. Hopefully, criticism from your side and mine can wake him up. Let's just say, I'm not happy right now.

[Capablanca]

17. Beware my friend

When you get done being pissed about the immagration policy and you start to analyze the real reasons behind it you may start to ask questions. When you ask these questions such as why would a President who claims to put the needs of the country ahead of politics make such an obvious political move? When you answer that with perhaps he is not all that he appears to be then you may ask more questions.

Perhaps the next line of questions will lead you to the deficit and then to the lies about Iraq. Once you realize that there was duplicity at the highest levels on this one you start to ask as I have what else is there?

The final step is to begin to revisit the positions of people like Dean and Clark. Have you done this? It might surprise you to learn that Clark and Dan may make sense about many issues. So beware my friend lest you allow your mind to be opened.

[bemildred]

13. You are not a troll, you are a lurker.

No offense intended.
:hi:

[cajunrunner]

15. Hey

At least I've made 4 post so far without being banned!! Is that a record for conserv's? Maybe ya'll like my bashing of President Bush, but keep in mind, I don't bash him too often. I'm just really pissed off right now. This is causing me to drink. (Yes, I am a conservative that drinks, hey at least I don't try to hide my addiction!!)

[bemildred]

18. I expect as long as you remain civil,

you will remain welcome. That doesn't mean
supine agreement, merely no name-calling or other
breaking of the posted rules.

[Norquist Nemesis]

21. If you post like this

I don't see any reason to ban you. It's a breath of fresh air to have a conservative that will actually consider other opinions. Thank you for that. I respect your opinions. The difference is that you're not attacking and degrading and name-calling to people who disagree with you. That makes all the difference. :)

We "liberal loons" have been bashed to kingdom come. It wears one down, so forgive us if we get touchy. It's a defense mechanism.

Oh...and CHEERS! :toast:

[finecraft]

14. Welcome Neighbor!

Greetings from New Iberia! If you really want to hear alternative points of view, try listening to KANE (AM 1240) in New Iberia. Jeff Boggs hosts a show called Teche Matters from 10:00 AM to 1:00 PM Monday through Friday. He talks about political issues, both on a National and local level daily, and invites his listeners to call in and participate in the show. I think you will find quite a spectrum of view expressed on his program. It's sort of like a Free Republic vs. DU live call in forum....but probably a lot more civil than that match-up would ever be! Enjoy your time here, and hope you enjoy the conversation!

[cajunrunner]

16. Greetings

I don't know if you've watched AOC, News from the Underground, but I debated on that show last semester. Of course, I was the guy on the Right, and I debated with this guy who was the head of College Dems. at ULL. I thought it was fun. Of course, my prediction was correct, the show is pretty much a Left-wing show. But, it was still fun nevertheless. And yes, I would enjoy something more civil than Freep vs. DU., both, IMHO, can reach too far extreme.

[finecraft]

19. No, we don't get AOC in New Iberia

If you feel the News from the Underground show had a "Left-wing" slant, AOC probably needed it to balance out the KKK guy that had a show a few years ago! (They will pay for that screw-up for a long, long, time.)

[cajunrunner]

20. Well my local friend...

Look, I do have a Confederate flag up in my apartment, but not for the same reason as that Flyn guy. My family never owned slaves; I actually researched it in the records. And, actually, my grandfater, who own his own appliance repair service, works for anyone of any race. I like my flag, as a since of heritage (I dated a Yank once and will never do it again). However, from my understanding, Flyn advocated the hanging of blacks. That's why I feel he should be gone. He's just like NAMBLA, both advocate crime/violent crime against a segment of people. I want EQUAL punishment.

As to one of your members who posted about me discovering G.W. Bush's lies on the WMD's. President Clinton (yes, I still call him president, unlike most Repubs, out of respect) also stated that Hussien had a WMD program and was a "threat to the freedom-loving world." Now, at the time of that speach by Pres. Clinton, I was hoping he's finish the job that G. Bush 41 did not finish, but he didn't. G.W. Bush decided to finish him, which is a big reason for my support. But, I'm not happy right now about the illegal immigrant issue.