and god said

[zonmoy]

It would appear that the messages Pat Robertson has been hearing from God are not God at all, but a cruel, conniving imposter.

God is cruel and conniving but not an imposter. Maltheists like myself realize that god is actually the ultimate source of evil. So is it that surprising that those that follow him do great evil.

[ixion]

1. more people have died and been tortured in the name of 'God'

throughout the course of history than just about anything else.
But since I don't really believe in the Christian concept of 'God' I would have to say that the ultimate source of evil is the human notion of 'God' or doing god's work, as it were.

[Third Eye]

2. But did God really say?

I need to clarify a few things. For one thing, most of the so-called prophecies from these individuals are speculative. From as early as the time Jesus ascended to heaven in the bible, predictions about his arrival began. As early as the second century, theologians of the day, the "founding fathers" of Christendom wrote about dates in the near future being the last day. Speculating about the last day doesn't equate with prophecy.

That having been said, I would definitely be concerned about such proclamations if, and only if, a change in normal behavior-- especially one detrimental to one's health were being requested. Also, if they claimed "God told them" that this were thus and so, as though it were infallible would be wrong too.

Which brings me to the puzzling mention of Jehovah's Witnesses. As a Jehovah's Witness, I'll speak in the first person. We don't go to war, we have never been activists pushing our beliefs on the general populace, in fact, we feel the same way about those who call themselves "Christians"-- a name that is supposed represent following "the Prince of Peace". They then turn around and pursue wars, violent demonstrations and even murder under the guise of being "pro-life".

Why this article was even allowed on this site (it violates the rule preventing attacking any race, religion, etc.), is one thing, but why the author chose to attack a religion doing it right is beyond me. Think about it: we believe in living a simple life, living peacable with all men, we mind our own business, stay out of butting into the laws and lives of the land. We don't vote, we don't go to war, and we don't support any political candidates or party. Yet she chose to lump us in with other religions because we've attempted to figure out the day of Armageddon?

I'm not even going to go in to the fact that only 1914, 1975 and 1994 are even remotely legitimate (we still believe in a significance to 1914, 1975 was actually clarified in 1966 as a possible day of significance but probably not the day of Armageddon, and 1994 was actually not a predicted day, but more of a part of a prophecy in the bible that we miscalculated). But to lump us in and declare we are causing ANYONE a problem is baffling. People may not like us, but to make the leap that we are politically motivated when we are specifically taught that getting involved in politics is not only pointless but against God's law for Christians, is just plain wrong.

I enjoy reading the articles on this site, and knowing the opinions of both sides of the aisle, but the facts should be the most important thing when talking about something you're passionate about. I just felt the need to bring this up because it directly involved me. Thanks for reading.

[Broken]

3. .....

Hi Third Eye,


My mom is a Jehovah's Witness too. She taught me at an early age not to pledge allegience to the flag, or sing patriotic songs. I'm very thankful for this because I have never been brainwashed into thinking the U.S. is a country guided by God, and that all other countries should bow before us. She taught me how foolish it is to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth that represents all that she feels is unholy. She did not let me play with G.I. Joes which, again, shielded me from such propaganda. She taught me that Jehovah would never support a govt. which made christians kill other christians, or even other humans. She taught me that joining the army and fighting for the nation is against god's will, that it is a sin to kill your brother.

And even though I do not agree with the Jehovah's Witness religion, I appreciate these things she taught me. Because of this I'm not blinded by ANY form of patriotism or nationalism the way I'm seeing how this whole country is, including liberals on this very website. I have no hangups on "UNAMERICAN" activities and thoughts because I was never taught to be concerned on what is or isn't "american". I don't believe I'm superior in ANY way just because I live under this nation. In fact she taught me that in some ways we are inferior because of our materialism and violence.

I'm glad I was taught to not salute the flag. I'm free from being manipulated with patriotism the way I see conservatives all the way to social democrats are/have been. I'm glad I was never taught to bow before the state by my mother. And when I've told her throughout the years the unfairness of capitalism, the unfairness of us eating from the foodbank, the unfairness of us sometimes having no heat in the winter, the unfairness of always working, the unfairness of having shity clothes, the unfairness of the anxiety and worry that poverty brings, she has always told me that her God does not support such a system, and that man cannot rule other men. She has unwittingly influenced me to become a real radical, a libertarian communist, and she, in her meek quiet small frame agrees with much of my radical philosphy. But believes God will bring about such a society.




"Why this article was even allowed on this site (it violates the rule preventing attacking any race, religion, etc.), is one thing, but why the author chose to attack a religion doing it right is beyond me."


Although I didn't see this on this thread. Possibly it was deleted? Nonetheless it is true that those who claim to be against racism and bigotry will be outright bigots against Jehovah's Witness's, and give arguments on why they are allowed to be. This is wrong, especially considering how Hitler treated Jehovah's Witnesses and how people in this country tarred and feathered them, and in a lot of places throughout the world religious leaders incite violenece against them, and how some govts oppressed them.. Third Eye, I notice how JW's are sometimes wrongly treated. Even though I disagree with the religion, stay true to who you are. As long as your not using the govt. to force feed me it (which JW's don't do), or hurting people, I'm not that concerned what you believe.

[Merlin]

4. This section is for current Editorials and Articles. Do you have a link?

"God exists. And there the matter lies."
--Thomas Paine

That is the essence of Deism. The God of the universe is intelligent beyond our wildest dreams. Our ability to communicate with It is the equivalent of a gnat's ability to communicate with either you or me.

The bible is simply a compilation of human fables, mythologized histories, tribal boosterism, hucksterism, messianic prostletizing, and other interesting but far from divinely inspired writing. If the God of the universe ever decided to write, believe me it wouldn't resemble anything like the convoluted, self-contradictory, insufferable bible. Did you ever actually read, for example, Leviticus???

All we can know of God is that It gave us reason and our reason tells us the universe is an extraordinarily complex, beautiful, intelligent series of systems in which we life forms have the privilege to exist, if ever so briefly.

However, by using that reason, we can come to know that truth, compassion, love, generosity, patience, kindness, when persisted, yield a positive human environment. We know that avoidance of harmful behavior like murder, mayhem, theft, rape, slander, and abuse leads all of us to live lives freer from external threat. We learn from our reason that joining together with others in common, positive undertakings can produce valuable, life sustaining results. We learn that by sharing our knowledge and experinces with others we assist them and ourselves at the same time. All of these things we learn through our God given ability to reason. All of these things are promoted as the essence of the world's great religions. Yet religion is unnecessary to understand them. All that is required is for each of us to think.

Religion and God are two different things. We must not judge the God of the universe by the institutions human beings have made to serve as interlocutors between people and this God. These institutions, like the people who serve them, are as flawed as all other human undertakings, and--in some cases--much more so.

And there the matter lies.

[Third Eye]

5. The article's gone

You know, I can't find the article now. But whatever. It was called "And God Said..." and it was written by a Shelly someone. Oh wait! Here it is! http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/02/11_god.html

Also, Broken, I'm glad that you have such a positive view of your mom; she sounds like an awesome, positive person, and I'm proud to call her "sister".

I appreciate Merlin's acknowledgement of some of the Bible's qualities and the positive effects they can have on people. Although I disagree with Merlin's assessment of the Bible, I would challenge him, privately of course, to prove to me where the contradictions in the Bible are. Often what appears to be a contradictory statement in the Bible makes more sense once put into the context of the whole. I'm by no means insulting your knowledge or intelligence, I'm just very sure of my position. If you'd like, we can discuss things privately as this board is no place for such discussions.

Yes, I've read Leviticus and it's the basis and foundation of modern day Judaism. Your contention that thought is all that's necessary is interesting, albeit unoriginal. The problem with that theory is that God ceases to become real, and the rules end up being made up by men. With that comes changing rules, little discipline and almost no sacrifice-- in other words, God becomes the creation and the Creator is an imperfect man. Thus a dangerous circle ensues using your reasoning that humans are flawed.

If the Bible (or any book for that matter) becomes the standard bearer, you are now held accountable for your actions. Because I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I'm forced to acknowledge its laws and standards as complete. (2Tim. 3:14-17) Because Jehovah set his standards for congregating, organization and service in the Bible, arguing against them is like arguing with Jehovah God, himself. (Heb. 10:24-25, 1Cor. 1:10, 1Cor. 14:33, James 1:22) That is of course if you respect the Bible for what it claims to be.

Didn't mean to get preachy, but what the heck, you did. I just wanted to clear up the author's mistaken claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are somehow "activists" or whatever. Our unwritten philosophy (for lack of a better word) is to preach about the Bible to those who are interested and to keep order with fellow believers.

And there, to borrow from you, the matter lies.