Boffin: Nursery rhymes have sexual meanings

[dArKeR]

London - They seem innocent enough, but Jack and Jill may have become amorous as they climbed their hill for a pail of water.

And instead of a water bird, "Goosey, goosey gander" may refer to a woman of ill repute, says Chris Roberts, social history graduate and librarian at the University of East London, who has looked again at the origins of 24 popular nursery rhymes for a new book, Heavy Words Thrown Lightly.

"The rhymes have all been well researched, but I have looked at them from a more modern, psychoanalytical perspective," he said.

Roberts said his 96-page book, published by Foot and Mouth Publications, is meant as "a lighthearted take on nursery rhymes".

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=29&art_id=vn20040305143506448C502717&set_id=1

[mmm]

1. The Dice Man versions are dirty; I think these are just nursery rhymes...

at least for the most part.

[ihaveaquestion]

2. Ring Around the Rosie

has to do with the plague of the middle ages. I forget all the symbology, but I do remember that "A pocket full of Posies" refers to the habit people had of carrying flowers around, because it was thought that sniffing them would keep the infection away.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. which is what I heard

but the research says no to that - it was first written down as late as 1881.

http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm

[depakid]

5. Snopes doesn't buy it

although the explaination sounds plausible enough, Snopes points out that the rhyme wasn't written down until the late 1800's, which would have meant that children were reciting it for at least two centuries without anyone ever bothering to record it. While that may not be probative in and of itself, considering the long history of oral traditions in Britain, Snopes also points out that there were a number of variations of the rhyme when it was first published that had completely different "meanings."

The real meaning?

Snopes quotes a folklorist who suggests that a more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on dancing among many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain as well as here in North America. Adolescents found a way around the dancing ban with what was called in the United States the "play-party." Play-parties consisted of ring games which differed from square dances only in their name and their lack of musical accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into the act, too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which involve rings of children, derive from these play-party games.

Ashcroft's ancestors must have had a fit over this....

http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm

[DrBB]

6. "Not probative" is right

The late 19th century was a major period for transcription and classification of folkloric material--ballads, folktales, rhymes and the like (the Brothers Grimm weren't trying to create anthologies for children; they were taking down old folktales for academic purposes). The Early English Text Society was founded in this period (as was the O.E.D.--Furnival played a role in both), as were similar societies dedicated to unwritten folklore. The fact that it wasn't written down until the 1800s is not at all surprising, even if it did originate in the Middle Ages. Though if it is about the plague, it could just as easily have originated in the 17th century, when there was a massive plague outbreak, and not be about the Black Death at all.

Not but what the conclusion may well be correct. I've never found the supposed references to the plague particularly persuasive. People did think foul smells could carry it, but putting posies in your pocket wouldn't do much good--they put scented cloths over their noses.

Related trivia: "bubonic" really does derive from "bubo neck."

[Merlin]

7. The posies were to ward off the smell of an infected person.

Since a plague victim emited a notable odor, people with posies in their pocket were trying to cover up the fact that they had become infected.

[kskiska]

4. They had political implications

for their times as well. Many were thinly veiled references to kings, queens, and other political figures of the day.

Baa, Baa, Black Sheep is said to be written in "protest against the export tax imposed in Britain in 1275. The master the king" .

Baa, baa, black sheep,
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir,
Three bags full.
One for my master,
One for my dame,
And one for the little boy
who lives in the lane.