Krugman: Forgive and forget? (WHOOHOO-- this is great!)

[antigop]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/opinion/16krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Last Sunday President-elect Barack Obama was asked whether he would seek an investigation of possible crimes by the Bush administration. “I don’t believe that anybody is above the law,” he responded, but “we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards.”

I’m sorry, but if we don’t have an inquest into what happened during the Bush years — and nearly everyone has taken Mr. Obama’s remarks to mean that we won’t — this means that those who hold power are indeed above the law because they don’t face any consequences if they abuse their power.

Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. It’s not just torture and illegal wiretapping, whose perpetrators claim, however implausibly, that they were patriots acting to defend the nation’s security. The fact is that the Bush administration’s abuses extended from environmental policy to voting rights. And most of the abuses involved using the power of government to reward political friends and punish political enemies.
...
Meanwhile, about Mr. Obama: while it’s probably in his short-term political interests to forgive and forget, next week he’s going to swear to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.” That’s not a conditional oath to be honored only when it’s convenient.

And to protect and defend the Constitution, a president must do more than obey the Constitution himself; he must hold those who violate the Constitution accountable. So Mr. Obama should reconsider his apparent decision to let the previous administration get away with crime. Consequences aside, that’s not a decision he has the right to make.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

1. K&R nt

[rurallib]

2. I am taking a bit of a different view of Obama's words

Maybe because of the Holder hearing.
I am thinking (hoping) that what Obama meant was that investigating Bushco is not going to be the focal point of his admin. The economy, health care, ending the dumb fuck wars, rebuilding the country will be the focal points. That is looking forward.
As a sideline there will be investigations and let them lead where they may. Of course FUX will make this the big story.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

45. And then FUX accuses Obama of 'flip flopping'

..when he actually does get around to investigating the Bush abuses. :*

[BlancheSplanchnik]

61. boy will I love seeing FUX, Rash Limpbutt, et al go down....

haha I'm sure the Rude Pundit could do alot with that...

:P

[gblady]

3. My hunch.....

is that we are seeing the poker player Barack here...
why on earth would he reveal what he may have in mind as far as the previous administration goes...
He actually would be foolish to declare anything while Bush is still president with ultimate authority, IMHO.

[Submariner]

5. Right. As long as Bush can still play the pardon card

Obama is wise to play it cool until Wednesday, then the gloves can come off during the course of 2009.

[BR_Parkway]

12. tuesday afternoon - that shit is out of power at lunchtime!

[The Wizard]

49. Since Bush withdrew one of his pardons already

he set a precedent that other chief executives can use for cover in the event they see fit to withdraw pardons already granted. Bush and his cartel could be tied up in litigation until they're as bankrupt as the American economy. Wouldn't that be ironic.
The best solution is to invite international law enforcement to take them into custody for extraordinary rendition.

[wryter2000]

18. Absolutelty

Create a false sense of security.

[Left Coast2020]

28. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE SAID!!

I believe I read another blogger somewhere state that Mr. Obama is not a poker player. I've argued--in this case--he is playing poker. He is a Constitutional professor. Why in the hell would you show your hand while duffus is still hanging around?

I made this same "poker" analysis a week or so ago (Demotalkradio blog and Buzzflash) when the "investigate Bush Crime Family" was all over every blog, or progressive website. Still is. I believe when the topic of pardons came up somewhere, but nonetheless, don't say what your true plan is until the coast is clear. I'm no legal eagle, but no matter what, some people have broken the law. They need to face the consequences. And he has already said he authorized totrture. "Pardon? We don't need no stink'n pardon". I suspect the pardons are coming, but on the other hand, I hope duffus is so drunk for the next three days he passes out and forgets everybody's name--including his--and does not pardon.

INVESTIGATE! INDITE! PROSECUTE! SENTENCE!

[chill_wind]

See also ---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8093439#top

(dupe thread)

[ThomCat]

4. That's a slamming op ed. I hope a lot of people high up listen

and I hope we really do have hearings and trials. I hope a whole lot of well-hidden appointed heads roll.

[formercia]

6. FDR forgave and forgot in 1934

we're still dealing with the same gang today.

Had enough yet?

[nichomachus]

8. Bingo --- 5-star post

Had FDR hanged Prescott Bush and his co-conspirators, this would be a vastly different country today. Instead, we've been fighting those same old fascists for 70+ years.

[burythehatchet]

54. Imagine: A hanged Prescott..no more Bushes in politics

[Captain Hilts]

58. Folks, a VERY progressive friend of mine, who is an FDR scholar looked and said there's NOTHING...

to this conspiracy theory beyond a bunch of rich shits sitting at dinner in NYC talking about how they hated FDR.

He said there's just no 'there' there.

[PurityOfEssence]

72. Look up Smedley Butler and have a good read

It was an attempted Coup d'Etat, make no mistake about it.

[leftstreet]

24. !!

:thumbsup:

[dflprincess]

31. I've been saying the same thing

You'd think sooner or later someone would figure out that it would be for "the good of the country" to prosecute those who would destroy it.

[Captain Hilts]

35. Huh????

[tavalon]

7. I'm hoping there are different ways of taking obama's words

but nonetheless, kudos to Paul Krugman for a hardhitting and correct piece. I feel a little sorry for Obama if he thinks he can forgive and forget because he will have forgotten the first rule of politics, which is that the politician dances with the ones who brung 'em. (Molly Ivins paraphrase). He will hear us roar if he even tries the DLC dance. That smackdown will leave a mark. I adore the man but I will not allow him to play the DLC politics. I helped put him in this position of power and I can damn well remove him if he doesn't do what needs to be done. Work on the economy, get us out of the wars of aggression and investigate and punish each traitor. Hard job we sent him in there for, but he knew it going in. Amnesia isn't going to help now.

[puebloknot]

15. We were able to multi-task after WWII. While tending to the Nuremberg trials ...

... we were about the business of the Marshall Plan, as well as getting back on track at home.

Many were concerned that Barack was a Muslim. I've always been concerned that he will apply his personal Christian principles of forgiveness where he has no right to do so. He can forgive in private all he wants, but as President, he has an obligation to follow the law. And he knows that law better than most anyone we've seen in a long time.

We are not governed by Christian forgiveness, Buddhist detachment, or any other religious or philosophical leaning. We are governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. On paper, anyway!

[dflprincess]

32. The crimes Bushco has comitted are not Obama's to forgive

regardless of what his religious sensibilities may be.

[tavalon]

47. We are in complete agreement

[The Blue Flower]

9. Quiet, methodical investigation

There's no reason why a quiet, methodical, and thorough investigation can't go forward on the sidelines while the administration moves ahead on the economy and other issues.

[Number9Dream]

10. Standing ovation for Mr. Krugman's words

Have the repukes ever chosen not to attack Dems at every opportunity?

[northernlights]

11. I take Obama to mean that he's not

going to announce to bushco that we're about to investigate you, so get your shredders operating in high gear. And if all else fails, get me.

In real life, you don't generally announce to criminals that you're hot on their trail. You quietly investigate, build your case and snare them just when they think they've gotten off scot-free.

I also take everything he's said to mean that Holder and others will be charged with getting the crooks. It's not by chance that the rethugs are particularly afraid of Holder.

Obama, personally, has to save our economy, get us out of a couple wars, fix our environment. He therefore, personally, needs to delegate certain tasks to people he trusts have the combined ability, ethics and motivation to complete them without his micromanagement.

So I'm glad people are making a lot of noise about how he doesn't appear to be going after bushco, because anything that lets them think they've gotten off will make it easier to nab them when the time is ripe.

[Still Sensible]

13. I fully expect

that Bushco will evaluate where they may be most vulnerable and make sure that blanket pardons are issued the morning of the 20th.

Even if they are, there should be investigations where appropriate so that mechanisms can be put in place to prevent such abuses of power in the future.

However, the trick will be having that happen without completely diverting the attention of the country and the world.

I am concerned that we are potentially devolving into a political atmosphere where the attention of every succeeding administration is initially devoted to getting political payback on the prior administration. The constitutional issues I believe are important enough to warrant inquiry here, but the new administration must make sure they are on very solid ground every step of the way.

[OneBlueSky]

14. if we are indeed a nation of laws and not of men (as we claim) . . .

then the illegalities of the Bush years MUST be investigated and prosecuted . . . if they aren't, two outcomes are sure:

1) every president from now on will feel free to break the law with impunity, knowing that s/he will never be called to account for his/her actions; and

2) anything we say to any other nation about freedom and democracy will be dismissed as just so much hogwash; if we'll lie about the very foundation of our democracy, we'll lie about anything . . .

[DrZeeLit]

16. From Krugman's pen to Obama's ear.... or blackberry. Think about the Holocaust...

The world could have said, "We beat the s.o.b.'s and Hitler's dead, so let's just look forward, okay?"
And all the war criminals, the masterminds of the Final Solution (whatever) would have walked away and run for office and la dee dah.

I'm not using a "hitler" analogy, just looking at how we, as a civilized people, have dealt with war crimes.

And I believe what Bush and his minions have perpetrated are War Crimes, with capital letters.
Yes, he's ruined this country in so many other ways.
He's bankrupted us economically, environmentally -- hell, the list is endless.

But I think the world can and will agree that the War Crimes are definitely actionable.
After he and his cadre are prosecuted for those, the rest would be gravy.

[wryter2000]

17. Excellent, as usual

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe what we could be seeing her is a "good cop/bad cop" strategy, with Obama being the good cop. He doesn't have to be the one doing the investigating. In fact, it's probably more appropriate for Congress to do it. The President can't put everything aside to look into BushCo crimes. Seriously, the magnitude of the criminal behavior will take huge amounts of time and people power.

In the Congress, we could easily have five or six investigations going on at once. Conyers and Whitehouse are already making the right noises. Waxman and Wechsler may also get busy. All they need is support from DOJ in enforcing subpenas so they can do their jobs and then support in criminal prosecutions. I think we'd get that from Holder.

In the meantime, Obama goes on trying to fix our future (good cop) while Congress does the dirty work going after BushCo (bad cop). That's what I'd like to see.

[saracat]

19. Brilliant and powerful piece. I hope Pres. Obama listens. Thank you

Mr. Krugman.

[MISSDem]

20. As always, Paul Krugman is fabulous.

A bunch of those people should go to jail.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. The readers' responses are OVERWHELMINGLY pro-prosecution

That tells me that a lot of people have a preferential option for truth and justice over political expediency.

[B o d i]

22. K&R

&U&G&M&A&N

[Jakes Progress]

23. K&R So much sanity.

The man should be running something.

[MasonJar]

25. I do not for one moment think that Obama intends to investigate/prosecute

the Bush administration. It would put up barriers for his plans; however, he should. It is the right thing to do, so he needs to get a special prosecutor so he can go on with other priorities. We cannot allow him to drop it. The Constitutional democracy demands it. Too very wise voices, Johnathan Turley and Paul Krugman, have set the pace, now we must join the race.

[Norrin Radd]

26. kr

[Liberty Belle]

27. Let's look forward - more laws will be broken in the future if we let these criminals get off free.

[bertman]

29. Contrast Krugman's words with those of Alan Derschowtiz who says there is no way

there would ever be a conviction for ANY of the crimes of BushCo because of 1) the top secret intelligence that said so many bad things could happen; and 2) the top secret things that could NOT BE REVEALED because they're top secret, so they would be exculpatory evidence that was not presented; and 3) the fact that so many Americans (potential jurors) would be sympathetic with the "Jack Bauer defense" that anything goes when you're trying to save your country. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/another-good-reason-for-n_b_158392.html

Personally, I'm in the Krugman corner. And I thank Paul Krugman for casting it in the terms he did, which only gives Obama more cover for allowing the AG to open up the investigations.

[Captain Hilts]

36. It's an educational process, also a deterrent to folks doing this again. nt

[bertman]

40. Agreed, Mookie.

[druidity33]

52. Dersch is a tool. NT

[BlancheSplanchnik]

62. misogynist too

among many other things.

It's just that attitude towards women is on my radar, generally.
Like the famous quote that I can't quite remember, How we treat animals indicates how we treat each other, I think the treatment of women indicates basic values. On the individual and the group level.

[disndat]

57. Dershowitz was always

pro-Bush Iraq war.

[proReality]

30. K&R n/t

[Maraya1969]

33. ALL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS ARE "LOOKING BACKWARD"

You don't get convicted of a crime for thinking about breaking the law. You first have to break it and then the investigators look back at what you have done.

All the way from the CSI to the jury decision a crime is looking backward. Obama's excuse of wanting to look forward is not how the law works.

[defendandprotect]

39. Yep . . . we probably have to get rid of DOJ, now ---

Ah, we "Liberal score-settlers" --- !!!

[Captain Hilts]

34. Let's all say it together, "we're a nation of laws, not men." There, that's better. Now, remember-

THIS is what made us the GOOD Guys in the Cold War, and Them the BAD Guys.

[hulka38]

37. Holder's going to be told not to dig too deep.

The Bush gang will get away with its lies and crimes at least according to the official history. It's an indictment on liberalism in this country proving that conservatives are right about one important thing - liberals are pussies.

[defendandprotect]

38. And, we will face these criminals again, soon --

maybe not the exact same Bush criminals ---

may be they won't be named Cheney or Rumsfeld -- Gonzalez, Yoo --

but they'll be back, unless we do something about them.

[shintao]

41. Taking Bush Inc. Out

Obama should not play his hand until he is POTUS. If Bush gives pardons for torture it is an admission of guilt to all the people he gives the pardon to. "If you have nothing to hide, why pardon" syndrome is in play here. Cheneys admission to torture is testing the public waters to see if Bush needs to play his ace of blanket pardons for torture. There are only four people Bush is concerned with. His dad, Cheney, Rummy, and himself. Gonzalves & the rest can hang. Don't think this investigation will be limited and not take Bill Clinton & maybe Carter down as well. Replugs will demand it.

[Grinchie]

42. Hey Obama -- Tell that to Hurricane Carter

I'm sure he would understand why it's too much trouble to review criminal activities.

The hypocrisy is so deep it stinks.

[DeSwiss]

43. Exactly, Mr. Krugman.

- K&R

[Politicalboi]

44. Obama was quick to say

Blago should resign. Have we heard the tapes yet? Seems most have convicted Blago already. If Obama can overlook Bush then Blago should stay where he's at. And to compare the crimes between Bush/Blago well there is no comparison. And besides Blago has the hair thing going for him. Vote Quimby!

[ColbertWatcher]

46. Obama has always said that WE have to help him do the work.

What can we do? How can we help?

[stlsaxman]

51. Maybe he meant the call for investigations coming from the grass roots...

the "we" in "We The People"?

If anyone knows constitutional law- it would be a constitutional scholar.

:shrug:

[ColbertWatcher]

60. But, haven't we been calling for accountability for years now? n/t

[stlsaxman]

68. yeah- but thru a GOP DOJ, so what would get done?

[ColbertWatcher]

69. Good point. n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

63. keep our communicating our viewpoints?

for one....

he does have an area on the website just for that....

[JNelson6563]

48. A history lesson for DU

Take a look at history and you will see those who go onto high places (ok, the highest of places) belong to a special club. tis a rare thing for one to take serious issue with a predecessor so as not to set precedent.

While it is a delightful thought to see Bush, Cheney and the rest of the gang behind bars, I believe there is a better chance of me winning the lottery.

Julie-bringer of wet blankets

[Two Americas]

64. you mean frozen stiff blankets, don't you?

You guys surviving OK up there? Did the east bay freeze over?

[JNelson6563]

65. Yeah, pretty cold up this way.

Lots of snow too! While the bay is a snow machine it also keeps us a bit warmer than some spots more inland. I see the bay daily as the office I am working in is literally beachfront property. The sun was out yesterday and it was entirely open water, in spite of it going up to ab out 7 degrees. This morning while there I saw the first 20-30 feet looked frozen again, though I know it's a thin sheet that could be gone tomorrow. The bay freezing over's a rare thing but the last time it did it was a winter like this one. We'll see how it goes.

The thing on my mind during this bitter cold is the homeless factor. No one can survive exposure to this very long, at least not without some really high end gear--which we know the poor do not have. Threads like this are so timely right now!

:toast:

Julie

[Two Americas]

67. used to freeze over pretty often

I seem to remember it freezing over quite often back 30 years ago or so.

I was about a half mile from the bay, and working 3 miles in last time I was there and about 50 miles north of you. Should be back in the spring, and I still owe you a glass of wine. We will have to meet up (can I use that phrase if I wasn't a Deaniac?) Miss your wine smiley! Miss you calling me a whiner, too lol. (just kidding)

"Oh how I wish again that I were in Michigan, down on the farm..." lol

I can't stop thinking about all of those poor folks in my old neighborhood in Detroit, and in Flint and Ypsilanti and Jackson in this weather....out of work, homes lost, utilities shut off. Good God.

[JNelson6563]

71. Do let me know when you're back in the region!

We'll definitely have to get together and solve the world's problems. Would love to hear how things are going with your work, which I admire you for.

(insert wine smiley here :-) )

Julie

[machI]

50. K&R

[creeksneakers2]

53. K & R

The Bush cabal should not be allowed to get away with crimes.

[Christa]

55. K & R

[Broadslidin]

56. Make that, 100 recommendations, for the Prosecution of Cheney & his chimp.

[Citizen Seattle]

59. I am having a recurring cheney scenario:

Cheney sends body double to inauguration. As he comes out of ceremony, agents move to arrest and in the background I see a departing space craft into the great out there with the real Cheney broadcasting joker like laugh.

[yurbud]

66. kick--missed deadline to rec

:fistbump:

[prostock69]

70. Maybe I am wrong here, but isn't the AttyGen.'s job to investigate

and prosecute any crimes that have been committed by Bush and Co.? I got the impression from the comments from Holder during his hearing that Pres. Obama made it clear to him that he is to be the attorney for the people and that he and Obama would probably not see eye to eye on a lot of issues but hopefully they can remain friends. I believe he wanted Holder because he knows Holder will go after Bush. By Obama saying that he believes in looking forward and not backwards gives him the perfect out. He can place all blame on Holder by claiming it's the AG's office's decision on what crimes to prosecute, not Obama's. Obama will not control or influence Holder, like Bush did to Gonzalez.