Toyota accused of 'not being frank' on problem

[DainBramaged]

Source: Detroit Free Press

When owners of Lexus sedans began reporting harrowing crashes involving stuck accelerator pedals in early 2007, Toyota told U.S. safety regulators there was no safety problem with its floor mats -- but it would send owners an orange warning sticker just to be sure.

The flaw has since been linked to at least 12 deaths, and last week, Toyota expanded its recall over floor mats to 5.3 million vehicles. As with a separate recall of 2.3 million cars and trucks for sticky pedals that also could cause sudden acceleration, the automaker downplayed early warnings of both problems.

A Free Press review of documents from nine U.S. investigations since 2003 into sudden acceleration complaints show Toyota repeatedly ruled out many owner complaints, dismissed several concerns as posing no danger and modified models in production without offering similar changes to vehicles already on the road. Not until the 2007 floor mat investigation did any of the complaints lead to a recall.

Safety advocates and attorneys for owners suing over sudden acceleration say Toyota has simply stonewalled.

"I think Toyota is still scrambling to find the root causes of all the sudden acceleration that's been reported to them," said Don Slavik, a Milwaukee attorney representing a California man whose wife died in a crash off a cliff in their 2005 Toyota Camry that he blames on sudden acceleration.


Read more: http://www.freep.com/article/20100131/BUSINESS01/1310523/1318/Toyota-accused-of-not-being-frank-on-problem

---

Ya think? This is EXACTLY what they did regarding the sludge and rust problems that eventually led to recalls.

[DainBramaged]

1. more

Sean Kane, a safety researcher who works with attorneys pursuing cases against Toyota, said Friday that he had found 19 deaths and 341 injuries stemming from 815 separate crashes involving Toyotas and sudden acceleration.




I'm sorry, these folks don't give a shit about their customers.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

3. Why fucking bother..............

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. When software attacks..... perhaps

http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/455.f96/disasters.html

Patriot Missile Failure

On February 25, 1991, during the Gulf War, an American Patriot Missile battery in Dharan, Saudi Arabia, failed to intercept an incoming Iraqi Scud missile. The Scud struck an American Army barracks and killed 28 soliders. A report of the General Accounting office, GAO/IMTEC-92-26, entitled Patriot Missile Defense: Software Problem Led to System Failure at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia reported on the cause of the failure. It turns out that the cause was an inaccurate calculation of the time since boot due to computer arithmetic errors. Specifically, the time in tenths of second as measured by the system's internal clock was multiplied by 1/10 to produce the time in seconds. This calculation was performed using a 24 bit fixed point register. In particular, the value 1/10, which has a non-terminating binary expansion, was chopped at 24 bits after the radix point. The small chopping error, when multiplied by the large number giving the time in tenths of a second, lead to a significant error.

Indeed, the Patriot battery had been up around 100 hours, and an easy calculation shows that the resulting time error due to the magnified chopping error was about 0.34 seconds. (The number 1/10 equals 1/24+1/25+1/28+1/29+1/212+1/213+.... In other words, the binary expansion of 1/10 is 0.0001100110011001100110011001100.... Now the 24 bit register in the Patriot stored instead 0.00011001100110011001100 introducing an error of 0.0000000000000000000000011001100... binary, or about 0.000000095 decimal. Multiplying by the number of tenths of a second in 100 hours gives 0.000000095×100×60×60×10=0.34.) A Scud travels at about 1,676 meters per second, and so travels more than half a kilometer in this time. This was far enough that the incoming Scud was outside the "range gate" that the Patriot tracked. Ironically, the fact that the bad time calculation had been improved in some parts of the code, but not all, contributed to the problem, since it meant that the inaccuracies did not cancel.


Explosion of the Ariane 5

On June 4, 1996 an unmanned Ariane 5 rocket launched by the European Space Agency exploded just forty seconds after lift-off. The rocket was on its first voyage, after a decade of development costing $7 billion. The destroyed rocket and its cargo were valued at $500 million. A board of inquiry investigated the causes of the explosion and in two weeks issued a report. It turned out that the cause of the failure was a software error in the inertial reference system. Specifically a 64 bit floating point number relating to the horizontal velocity of the rocket with respect to the platform was converted to a 16 bit signed integer. The number was larger than 32,768, the largest integer storeable in a 16 bit signed integer, and thus the conversion failed.

[tbyg52]

27. That has been my thought for quite some time.

Mechanical malfunctions are a lot less scary-sounding than computer malfunctions.

[fasttense]

5. Toyota needs to be tried for murder just like a person.

If they have rights of people they should bear the same consequences as people.

[Daveparts still]

6. This is Normal

In the 80's Toyota had a problem with bad jigs that held the frame pieces in place for welding. It meant that the frames were out of alienment and couldn't be repaired. The cars wore tires off one side and when Toyota discovered the problem the company reccomended they give owners a deal on new cars and then to resell tham as used cars with no warranty.

By trading it kept the problem out of the public eye while saving the company money.

[madrchsod]

7. solaria`s (spelling) have the same problem.

[madrchsod]

8. but they are going to "shim" the problem

as you know from my observations---where was toyota`s qc checks on the vendors shipments. all hell breaks loose when there is a cosmetic defect....

[Christa]

9. K & R nt

[hobbit709]

10. Name me any major car manufacturer who hasn't tried to hide a problem.

Remember the Ford Flaming Deathmobile? The automatic transmission column shift popping out of Park?
They all do the same thing when it potentially could cost them big bucks.

[DainBramaged]

11. Name us ONE Domestic recall of the past decade as serious

just one and I'll shut up about this till tomorrow. You won't find one, period.



Just remember, the Ford Explorer debacle of the 90's was caused by Firestone tires, owned by the Japanese, so you can't include that one. And they tried blaming the owners rather than poor tire design.

[hobbit709]

12. and Ford kept selling them with the same tires.

2008 GM recall 800,000+ for faulty wiring harness shorts. Don't know about you but I prefer to not have a fire in my vehicle.

[DainBramaged]

13. (sigh) did anyone die??? It was a sub-contractor defect in the washer fluid heating system.

I don't think you need to worry about smashing into a wall at 100mph from that.....



http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/29/autos/gm_heated_washer_recall/index.htm


General Motors is recalling 944,000 vehicles, 850,000 of them in the United States, because of the potential for a fire in the vehicles' heated windshield washer fluid system.

A short circuit in the circuit board that controls the system could cause a grounding wire to overheat. That could lead to smoke and the malfunctioning of other electrical components, GM (GM, Fortune 500) said in a letter to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). In rare cases, it could cause a fire, GM said.

GM is aware of three fires caused by this problem, two of which were in the company's own test fleet vehicles, GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said. The company is not aware of any injuries caused by the problem.

The vehicles must be turned on for the short circuit to occur, Wilkinson said, but he could not say whether the washer fluid heating system needed to be in use.

[Zoeisright]

26. That's my measuring stick too.

If someone died from a manufacturing defect, that company needs to be tried for murder.

I think it's the only way we're going to rein in these behemoths.

[DainBramaged]

14. Because Firestone had them convinced it was the owner's faults....

read the recall and lawsuits for more DETAILED information.

[Tesha]

18. The Ford Cruise Control Switch recall was pretty serious.

http://www.switchfires.com/

October 2009 Update: Ford Recalls Another 4.5 million Vehicles Due To Fire Risk

On October 13, 2009, Ford Motor Co. expanded its largest-ever recall by about 4.5
million vehicles equipped with a faulty cruise-control switch linked to at least 550
vehicle fires nationwide, and the destruction of many homes and other properties.
Ford has now recalled more than 14 million vehicles in eight separate recalls over
a 10-year period because of the problem.

[DainBramaged]

19. Did anyone die?

And isn't it a fact they've been chasing this for a decade???

No comparison......... go back to sleep.

[Tesha]

30. I guess as long as it wasn't your house burning down you don't care.

Our neighbors' Ford caught fire, in their "garage under" under
their bedrooms, in the middle of the night. They considered
themselves lucky no one died.

Tesha

[DainBramaged]

33. Give me a break, if you don't want to support Domestics, start a thread bashing them

so we have a fair shot at responding to your inanities.

[Tesha]

34. Your use of "inanities" suggests that you're out of rational arguments. (NT)

[DainBramaged]

35. You ran out of "rational" a long time ago, don't make me laugh....

Why not just reply to threads you really know something about......which is basically nothing.

[Tesha]

36. Go back and read my post (in yet-another Toyota-bashing thread of yours)...

...that describes the failures of the rear brake hoses on my Ford Taurus.

I know perfectly well what I'm talking about and your use of insults
won't change that one iota; it's just a sign of how desperate you are
in trying to build up your brand by bashing Toyota and anyone who
doesn't agree with your theory that they are the devil incarnate.

Tesha

[DainBramaged]

37. (sigh) weak, but I'm done for tonight, I have things to do

Toyota, putting profits over people, for generations.........





Toyota’s slow awakening to a deadly problem



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35181415/ns/business-the_new_york_times/

[Mopar151]

15. Well, about the flaming Fords

The trouble with Pinto sedans was a fuel fill pipe that would pull out of the tank in a crash - Ford had an effective fix, which was easily verified (look at the screw heads under the gas filler cap) - and the Pinto was an otherwise decent car, with some iconic components - the front suspension is under thousands of hot rods, 2 of the available engines are the backbone of spec racing series.
Several models of cars at that time had the drop-outa-Park issue - A Javelin backed over 100' to hit my Dad's car broadside, and I had a Plymouth that would do the same trick. My Ford pickup, which I dutifully put the sticker on, never did it to me.

GM had much worse problems with several models. Brand loyalty is a lot like blind love, I guess.....
The Chevy Monza/Vega was pretty much a piece of crap. Most of the engines were junk, by the standards of the day (details on request), they had several structural problems, including one which locked the steering (!), and crappy steering boxes that GM never really got caught for.
Chevettes - a wretched little car - had pointed bolts in the rear suspension that would punch holes in the tank in a rear impact. Rear coil springs that would shatter (some were recalled), and rearends that would run dry when the torque tube bolts loosened from Vermont roads - necessitating a rebuild. I don't think GM ever got caught for that one either.
And then there was the Citation. GM started with a clean piece of paper, and crapped on it! 14 (!!)recalls on some early production models, torque steer so bad in the first model year that they would change lanes on a hard 1-2 shift, the same crappy 4-cylinder engine from the Monza (run for a long time, if you never revved over 5000 rpm)
Finally, there is the original, FLAMING DEATHMOBILE - Chevy/GMC pickups from 73-87 had fuel tanks mounted in a vulnerable location, and a side impact would rupture the tank, causing a huge fire. I had a neighbor who went through one of these - nearly killed him, disabled for life. All the worse because the stake bed body exposed the tank even more - and he was a roofer, hauling a load of old shingles to the transfer station. Burnt it so crispy there was hardly anything to tow away. More at http://www.usautoinjurylaw.com/cases/fires/fueltanks.htm

[DainBramaged]

17. you forgot about them thar MOPAR RECALLS.....

Chrysler Recalls Vehicles Over Brakes


Chrysler Group LLC is recalling 24,177 vehicles because of a defect that could result in brake failure.

The recall includes 2010 models of the Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Avenger, Dodge Nitro, Jeep Commander, Jeep Grand Cherokee and Jeep Liberty and 2009 and 2010 models of the Dodge Ram pickup.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced the recall Tuesday.

Chrysler said the problem was discovered during routine quality inspections and that it received no owner complaints or reports of injuries. The automaker said some vehicles were built with improperly formed brake booster push rod retaining clips or without a clip, potentially resulting in push rod separation from the brake pedal assembly. The brake booster push rod helps exert the force necessary for braking.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9605749


But notice as with recent Domestic recalls, they were discovered via inspections and the corrections initiated WITHOUT consumer complaint.

[Mopar151]

20. Sorry, did'nt know about that one

"No owner complaints or reports of injuries" is probably why. My "sample" is admittedly skewed, and I'm probably more of a "Ford Man" - but I race a Mopar powered #151. And we otherwise own 3 Fords. I don't deal much with late model cars these days, and my friend's trucks I ride in tend to be pretty high end. Some of this is 'cuz I'm a big galoot, and Ford & VW design seating to the 98th percentile humans, while GM tends to go to the 95th or so.

[blue_onyx]

24. Yes, all companies have quality problems

but Toyota and other foreign companies don't get nearly as much criticism. On DU, which is particularly harsh toward the US companies, most of the posters who spent much of 2009 bashing GM/Chrysler have conveniently avoided almost every recent Toyota post. Those who do acknowledge Toyota has a problem basically give them a pass saying "all companies have problems."

Additionally, the US automakers' biggest quality issues were decades ago. The vehicles they make now are great.

[DainBramaged]

31. ALL of the GM/Chrysler bashers avoid Toyota/Honda/Nissan problem threads

I'm positive they hide them hoping they'll go away so they can ignore the fact that a big fucking corporation is a big fucking corporation no matter where it's located, but from personal experience WORKING for them, problems are not acknowledged until they are massive.

[Mopar151]

32. Most domestics are very good now

I know a high-end used car dealer - Audi's, Jaguar, Porsche and the like. If he is buying a car to order for his secretary, it's a domestic - he tells me the "Camry premium" is about $5000 on a year-old car, "and no way are they worth that!" He was bemoaning the recall delays he gets on Porsches in his stock "Six weeks out? I was a Fiat dealer, goddamit - we could always work somebody in!" But, checking and following up on recalls on his stock is probably why he moves more Quattros than the Audi dealer.

[PSzymeczek]

38. Saturn had a problem

with a bad batch of antifreeze or something corroding out the radiators IIRC. They replaced the whole car.

[onager]

16. Lots of good info here...

http://jalopnik.com/

At the site search tool, just enter "fiery death."

Jalopnik was all over the first big recall last year. That one involved floor mats snagging the accelerator pedal. The most recent recall is for the pedal assembly itself, which apparently can bend unexpectedly and jam.

These are two separate issues, easy to confuse and meld into one "Toyota recall." (They sure confused me.)

While a lot of people laughed at the "Fatal Floor Mat" recall, it only came to light after a horrific crash killed 5 members of the same family.

[prole_for_peace]

21. I had a 2008 Chevy Cavalier that had a sticky accelerator.

Sometimes when I would take my foot off the pedal it wouldn't move and the car would not decelerate. I finally figured out that the floor mat was the issue.

I wonder if it was a problem with other Cavaliers

[DainBramaged]

22. Chevy stopped making the Cavalier in 2004...................

:wtf:

[prole_for_peace]

28. Whoops. I meant 1998

I have a migraine... and am slightly insane...

[DainBramaged]

29. I haven't had migranes for years but am still insane........

:crazy:

[emsimon33]

23. This happened to me in my Prius coming down the mountains

in Northern California a year ago. I am lucky to be alive!

I had had that happen a couple of times for a short period on flat ground and had removed my floor mats. So, I knew that it wasn't the floor mats when given that explanation.

[Mopar151]

25. Floor mats are an OLD problem

Our hillclimb series has had this rule for at least the last 28 years:

D. Interior and Trunk
1. No loose objects, loose carpets or mats.
2. No spare tire or jack.
3. Small tools or items shall be in a closed compartment or suitably secured.

I've done tech inspection for our series, and in other venues, for the last 30 years. It is not just floor mats - I've helped guys tie up a Sargassso Sea of wires,add throttle springs, and fix all sorts of obstructions to the pedals and throttle linkage.
Some of the problems occur, IMHO, because the floor mats are considered accessories, and are not subject to the same engineering standards as the OEM carpets. And some owners are so afraid of soiling their "baby", they'll use oversize mats, mats with raised edges, even coverering the OE carpet with a carpet remmnant - which fits worst AT THE GAS PEDAL.
And one more piece of advice - When you buy or rotate tires, make sure the spare and jack are stowed securely - just like on the little label next to them! When I worked in a tire shop, this was SOP, as was a little dab of anti-seize on the hand-torqued lug nuts.